Apparently it's only 49 states in '08 for Howard Dean and the DNC!

[ddeclue]

For those of you not keeping up with current events:

Over the weekend the Democratic National Committee has decided to strip the Florida Democratic Party of its delegates to the national convention in Denver in 2008.

This effectively disenfranchises 4.3 MILLION registered Democrats in Florida from participating in their own party's primary and it is in no way the fault of Florida Democrats!

The reason for stripping us of our delegates and effectively silencing our 4.3 MILLION Democratic votes is because the Republican controlled State Legislature and Republican Governor chose to move our primary up from March to January 29th.

Even if all 42 Democrats in the State House voted no it would not matter because the Republican Party has a substantial undefeatable majority. The same is true for the State Senate.

No matter what we did, we could not have prevented them from changing our Presidential Preference Primary date.

Yet the DNC, knowing that this was beyond our control, chose to punish Florida Democrats anyways.

This is like getting a parking ticket because your Republican brother took the car without your permission and parked it illegally. It's not something we did as Democrats, yet WE are being punished for it

Howard Dean ran for DNC chair on the promise of 50 states in 2008. Now apparently it will be 50 minus Florida or 49 in 20088.

One of the chief complaints of our Founding Fathers was "taxation without representation". Well I will certainly remember that complaint the next time the DNC calls me and asks for a donation.

I'll have to say: "I'm sorry but if my vote doesn't count with you, I'm not going to send you my money either. I'm saving my money to give directly to candidates that I back or I'm sending it to Tallahassee instead of giving it to the DNC, the DCCC, or the DSCC."

Stripping Florida of its delegates is a surefire recipe for losing the White House in 2008. You have just told the 4.3 MILLION Democrats in fourth largest state in the Union that their votes don't count. Of the three larger states - New York, California, and Texas, their electoral votes are already safely decided - California and New York are safe "blue" states while Texas is a safe "red" state.

Florida is the largest battleground state in the Union -with 27 electoral votes or 10% of the total required for a victor - that is not safely in either Republican or Democratic hands. And the DNC has just told us we don't count and we ought to be punished for things that are beyond our control.

Shame on you DNC!

Disgusted in Orlando,
Doug De Clue

[LittleClarkie]

1. From a thread by Madflo

"How can the mean ol' Democratic National Committee punish beleaguered Florida Democrats for the Republican-controlled legislature and governor deciding to move the presidential primary so early in violation of committee rules?

Puh-lease.

Party chairman Howard Dean might swallow that if a Democratic state senator, Jeremy Ring, hadn't sponsored the original bill moving the primary to Jan. 29. Besides, Dean knows he lobbied early on to get Democrats to back off the bill and folks like House Democratic leader Dan Gelber blew him off publicly."

[ddeclue]

10. Puh-lease yourself...

It doesn't matter what the Democrats did in Tallahasseee, this was going to pass with or without them. And you are punishing 4.3 million Democrats for the action of ONE lousy state Senator..

Grow up.. this isn't high school and group punishment is COUNTER-productive and destructive of the party.

Doug D.

[LittleClarkie]

12. The quote was not me speaking

it was from a thread by MadFloridian.

[madfloridian]

68. From a quote by Adam Smith of the St. Pete Times

And he is one of my favorites. He has been really keeping up with this and being fair to both sides.

In a thread at Kos...the FDP staff person said Adam Smith was not telling the truth.

It is sickening what they are doing.

They are pressuring one of the best reporters in Florida to recant all his writing.

They do not give up, they won't give up. We won't be able to go back to a meeting since we took a stand against this.

[IdaBriggs]

2. Sorry your state party has to obey the same rules as the rest of us.

As I understand it (only paying partial attention) the Florida Dems do have options, but have chosen not to exercise them.

Sorry your state leadership is failing you. :(

[ddeclue]

4. No we don't have options...we don't control the legislature

therefore we have no control over the dates. The DNC is failing me, not the FDP - I'm going to boycott Federal DNC, DSCC, and DCCC this year if my vote isn't going to count. I will give to my candidates directly or to the FDP and the DNC, DSCC, and DCCC can starve as far as I'm concerned.

Howard Dean promised FIFTY states, not FOURTY-NINE.

Doug D.

[Bucky]

7. The fifty state strategy is about winning elections in November.

No one is talking about disenfranchising Florida's voters. Well, no Democrats are. Dean is just saying they can't start a bidding war over who gets to go first.

The system needs reform and an overhaul, not a bidding war.

[ddeclue]

29. IT DOES DISENFRANCHISE FLORIDA DEMOCRATS

and effectively makes it a 49 state plan if you tell Presidential candidates that Florida will not have any delegates, they won't campaign here at all. That is NOT fair to rank and file Florida Democratic party voters and will make them angry and they will NOT come out to vote in November as a result and we will lose the White House.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[LittleClarkie]

30. Well, your House Dems seemed to like the idea

The Dems had a hand in it, I reckon. This new tactic of blaming the Republicans is just spin.

[ddeclue]

31. No it's not, if every Dem voted against it would STILL have passed 78-42

and the Dems would have been bashed here in Florida by the GOP for voting against it.

It's all Karl Rove trickery and you and Howard Dean and the DNC are playing right into their hands.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[LittleClarkie]

33. Regardless, they still voted for it and your point is rendered moot

If they'd all voted against it, then they'd have shown Governor Dean that this was against their will. He and the DNC might not have acted in the same way then.

But it wasn't.

[ddeclue]

37. NO YOUR POINT is rendered moot.

By the fact that it did not matter HOW they voted, the bill would STILL pass with or without them.

Doug D.

[LittleClarkie]

39. If it didn't matter how they voted, then they should have voted against and sent the DNC a message

Why do they care what the GOP says in 2008. Why is this a weapon against them?

[ddeclue]

42. It didn't matter to whether the BILL would pass. It DOES matter in Nov 08

Florida State House legislators must run for re-election every two years and the Florida Republican Party would have used a "no" vote to beat Democratic legislators over the head with in next November's elections because moving the PPP is popular with Florida voters.

Had they voted to follow the DNC party rule, the bill would have STILL passed OVERWHELMINGLY 78-42. It doesn't matter how much you run up the score, if a bill passes by ONE vote it STILL passes. Until you can show me 19 Republican defectors, there is no way it could have been defeated.

The Democrats have made tremendous improvements in the state house in 06 picking up 8 seats and shifting the balance 16 seats. Had they stuck by the DNC rule, they would be thrown out in the next election and the state house would be more Republican than ever.

This rule is stupid and it is being used ever so cleverly by the Florida GOP to drive a wedge between the state and national parties, to disenfranchise and discourage Florida Democratic voters, to discourage Democratic Presidential candidates from campaigning here, and to also cost us seats one way or the other, either by giving them an issue to use against us or by discouraging Democratic turnout in Nov. by discouraging Democratic Presidential candidates from campaigning here until after the primary.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[LittleClarkie]

44. Rules they themselves signed off on. Stupid or no, thems the rules.

All the DNC wanted to see was some fight out of the Dems on this issue. But they didn't see that. They saw complicity instead.

[ddeclue]

46. Do you know what a "martinet" is?

Someone who rigidly and stupidly follows the "rules" when some common sense ought to be used instead.

These rules are stupid and should not be enforced just to prove a point.

If you and the DNC insist on it, YOU will cost us the White House in '08.

I WILL sit on my FLORIDA wallet in 08 and give only to the local and state party and directly to candidates.

The HIGHER rule that matters is that everybody's vote should count.

If my vote is not going to count, you can't have my money.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[mdmc]

75. Hillary got tons of money, and won't need FLA

Since FL. will fall to the GOP again, I think you should give your cash to local DEMS that are willing to stand up and support the team.

Hillary will be in the white house in 2009 and lack of floridian cash won't stop her.

Please build up your local team with some folks that will walk the walk.

And God Bless Howard Dean!

[razors edge]

57. I would remove Fla from the primary

along with my own state Ohio, simply because they can't say with a straight face that votes were counted correctly.

[JTFrog]

9. Join the club. My vote isn't going to count.

I'm in Indiana. By the time our primaries come the candidate will have been chosen for us.

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

11. How many of the 42 Dems in the State House ended up voting for the bill

just out of curiosity and fairness

[LittleClarkie]

28. Okay, got my answer. Almost all of the Dems voted FOR this move

Hence, your original premise no longer holds water.

This effectively disenfranchises 4.3 MILLION registered Democrats in Florida from participating in their own party's primary and it is in no way the fault of Florida Democrats!

The reason for stripping us of our delegates and effectively silencing our 4.3 MILLION Democratic votes is because the Republican controlled State Legislature and Republican Governor chose to move our primary up from March to January 29th.

Even if all 42 Democrats in the State House voted no it would not matter because the Republican Party has a substantial undefeatable majority. The same is true for the State Senate.

Even if the Republican's had an undefeatable majority, the Dems did not have to vote almost unanimously for the move as well.

Meanwhile, I repeat, a Dem presented it in the first place.

The Dems are not as innocent as you claim.

[ddeclue]

32. WRONG. If EVERY Dem voted against it STILL would have passed 78-42

but then the FRP (republican party) would have used it to bash Democratic state legislators in Nov 08. It's Karl Rove "strategery" and Howard Dean, you, and the DNC are falling for it hook line and sinker.

The Democrats had NO CONTROL over whether this bill was going to pass. But the rank and file Florida Democratic voter is going to be punished, in a group punishment for things that were simply beyond their control.

If that's going to be the game, then Howard Dean can bite me the next time he wants a donation for the DNC, DCCC, or DSCC. I'm sitting on my FLORIDA wallet. I'll give my money to the FDP, the local party, and to candidates that I choose DIRECTLY rather than giving him one damned dime.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

35. So they voted for it so it wouldn't be counted against them by the GOP

Saturday on the Rules Committee, Roosevelt told the Florida Dems it appeared they had not fought hard enough against the Republicans.

[LittleClarkie]

38. And that appears to be true.

Why would it have been a tool for the GOP if the Dems had voted against it? Why do the Dems care what the Republicans think in Florida if it means going against the DNC?

I think the DNC would have looked at this situation differently if all the Dems had voted against.

[ddeclue]

47. What can't you comprehend????

Geezz..I'll break it down for you....try to follow along...

Moving the PPP was very popular with Florida voters.

Voting against moving the PPP therefore would be UNPOPULAR with Florida voters and thus it would be something REPUBLICANS could use against DEMOCRATS in the upcoming November 2008 election.

If the Democrats voted against this, they COULD NOT have stopped it. 78-42 remember?

THEY WOULD HOWEVER, have been painting big fat targets on their backs for their own re-elections.

In short, there was no upside to them for voting against.

And the rank and file Democrat is being punished and disenfranchised as a result when they had NO way to influence either the ultimate outcome of the vote (it passes with 78-42 vs. 119-1 or whatever.. it still passes) OR whether those Dem state legislators would vote for it.

It's called "group punishment"... Did you ever see "Full Metal Jacket". It's a neanderthal approach to discipline and it alsmost always is counterproductive. You don't punish person A for the actions of person B. That's just wrong and that's what Howard Dean and the DNC have stupidly chosen to do here.

I will return the "group punishment" to Howard Dean and the DNC by boycotting them. My money will go to the Florida Democratic Party and to the local DEC and directly to candidates I choose and Howard and his DNC friends in Washington can go bankrupt for all I care.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[LittleClarkie]

53. I think you are wrong, and I disagree.

Such is life on a discussion board.

[ddeclue]

60. Well you are wrong and you have no rebuttal to my analysis of the consequences

of this DNC ruling.

Doug D.

[LittleClarkie]

62. Somehow I don't think you are the harbinger of ultimate truth.

You disagree with my replies. You also disagree with other Floridians who have a differing opinion. And have been insulting to them to boot.

Not having a rebuttal, and having you disagree with my rebuttal are two different things.

[ddeclue]

40. Look... I live here and am heavily involved in these Florida House races

This is a wedge issue designed by Florida Republican Party to force Florida House Democrats to either do something unpopular with the voters (vote against moving up the PPP) or unpopular with the DNC (vote for moving up the PPP.)

Either way the bill was going to pass - it's simple arithmetic.. the best we could do was that it passed overwhelmingly 78-42. Whether it passes 115-1 or 78-42, it STILL PASSES. Until you can show me 19 Republican defectors to this bill - IT STILL PASSES.

So if these 42 Democrats had been willing to be martyrs for Saint Howard Dean's benefit, then they would have been crucified over it by the Florida GOP come election time and we would no doubt lose tremendous numbers of seats in the state house where we have just shifted the balance 16 seats towards the Democrats in the 2006 election season.

It would have been a huge reversal for the Democrats here in Florida.

In short, the DNC rule is a stupid rule and it is being enforced thoughtlessly without regards to the consequences or the context of the situation and I am calling for all Florida Democrats to boycott the DNC, DCCC, and DSCC until we get our delegates BACK!

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

51. Lord help us.

.

[cali]

3. Oh, please.

Completely back Dean and the DNC here. Florida dems are completely complicit in this stupid move.

NO sympathy for Florida here.

[Bucky]

5. It's a stupid bidding war for who gets to be first.

The DNC needs to take control of the nomination process. It's broken. Elections are supposed to be a snapshot of a country's will. If the nomination by the two parties occur ten months before actual election, you remove a lot of the power from the voters and turn it over to the two parties' apparatuses.

[sendero]

6. Dean doesn't want..

... to lose FL. He wants to have SOME EFFING CONTROL over the primary schedules.

All FL has to do is stop trying to decide, on their own, how to timeline the primaries. Because if they get away with it, it will be a free for all, with states all over trying to jump ahead.

I'm behind Dean 100%.

[Debi]

8. republicans have similar rules to the DNC's

They just haven't had their meeting yet - I don't think this is over and you may very well see the legislature voting again, this time to move back to February 5th thereby both parties having all of their delegates awarded at the respective national conventions.

There are consequences for front-loading on both sides of the aisle.

[ddeclue]

16. And the RNC will no doubt waive their rule because they can screw us that way.

And it doesn't matter whether they do or they don't. Democrats votes should cound in a Democratic election.

If they don't want my vote, they can't have my money.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[Debi]

72. How does nominating Mitt Romney screw the Democrats?

Front-loading helps the high dollar candidates - Romney would do well in FL and in Michigan - and he just won the Iowa GOP's straw poll earlier this month.

Earlier articles regarding the calendar shift and the RNC have resulted in similar comments to what we read coming out of the DNC. They'll be in the same pickle we are.

[JNelson6563]

13. Do you honestly believe

the convention is where the nomination is made? Voters in Iowa, New Hampshire and the corporate media will decide all that.

The convention's just for show anymore.

Julie

[ddeclue]

15. BUT...

Iowa and New Hampshire do not have the number of delegates required to lock up the nomination and Florida would normally make up a substantial number of delegates in this race had it not been for this "group punishment" action by the DNC.

This argument you are making makes about as much sense as excluding California's electoral college votes in the General election and saying "it doesn't matter". People's votes ought to count.

As for "group punishment", I say Floridians FIGHT BACK. Tell the DNC (and DSCC and DCCC) to go to hell when they call asking for your money.

If my vote isn't good enough for them, they can't have my money either. It's a package deal.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. The Washington State Democrats have declared our presidential primary irrelevant

Anyone who votes on the Democratic ticket during the state presidential primary is wasting their time: NO delegates will be selected based on the results. Instead, the small handful willing and able to attend the caucuses will make the determiniation for some 11 million Washington voters (we do not have partisan registration) and render the primary a six million dollar waste.

[Recursion]

17. That's why DC's caucus in '04 had to be non-binding, too

We did sort of the same thing, but backwards from you: we had a caucus (and I guess unlike you I'm a fan of caucuses) early to highlight our lack of Congressional representation but we had to make it non-binding and still hold a primary.

<rant>I'm really, really frigging sick of Iowa and New Hampshire saying how good they are at choosing candidates. Maybe this is some latent culture war coming out, but I really get mad when I see candidates sitting down with a bunch of factory workers in a diner for breakfast as a way of appearing "real American". A diner? For breakfast? I live in a city and I swear nobody here ever has time to lounge around in a diner eating breakfast on a weekday. It's an obsolete way of life, and we're letting nostalgia for it shut out the vast number of us who have jobs and family commitments who don't have time to sit and eat breakfast in a frigging diner on a weekday morning.</rant>

[LittleClarkie]

21. If the Florida Dems are not to blame, why was the vote 115 to 1

in the House in favor of the decision to move the primary?

You said that even if all 42 had voted against it would still have passed. But what you didn't say was that most of the Dems voted for it, as well as a Dem introducing it.

And you still don't blame the Florida Democratic Party?

[Recursion]

22. Well, since I support a national single-day primary, I don't "blame" anybody

I think Florida was moving a step in the right direction, not the wrong direction.

[LittleClarkie]

23. Oops. Thought you were the OP

My bad.

[ddeclue]

36. They are NOT to blame because they don't control the legislature.

Had EVERY Dem voted against it STILL would have passed overwhelmingly 78-42.

But THEN, the Florida Republican Party would have used the vote to bludgeon every Democratic state legislator who voted against it in the Nov 08 election and it would have been a devastating bludgeon indeed to reverse our recent 16 seat shift in the legislature in 06.

In short Democrats DID NOT control this vote and it would not have mattered to the final passage whether they voted for or against, it was a damned if you do damned if you don't vote but the end result is now that the national Democratic Party is STUPIDLY punishing rank and file Democratic voters in a "group punishment" instead of the Republican Party punishing Democratic legislators for voting against this bill.

Either way Democrats end up losers and it's classic Karl Rove strategy and Howard Dean is playing right into it by STUPIDLY insisting on enforcing this idiotic rule.

The end result will be the disenfranchisement of Democrats in Florida in the primary race and as a result they will stay home in the general race as well and it will cost us not just the White House but also state house seats and congressional seats as well.

As for me, I say fight back against the DNC - don't give them a dime until they back down! They can't have my money if they don't want my vote!

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[TechBear_Seattle]

34. Actually, I would prefer caucuses

Especially given the way the Democrats led the charge against Washington's blanket primary.

However, I very strongly resent the way our state Legislature -- dominated in both houses by Democrats -- repeatedly vote to waste so much money by mandating a primary and then making a point of ignoring it. It gives every appearance of the state Democratic Party saying, "Fuck the taxpayer; we have money to spend!"

If the party wants to hold caucuses, fine. Let them be held on the party's expense account without the frickin waste. They are the ones who demand a right to pick their own candidates; they are the ones who refuse to acknowledge the primary. Why the bloody hell should they be allowed to spend so much of my money for a pointless waste of time?

[KellyW]

18. You can still take a stand

I fought that battle (for the wa Primary)and lost. BTW, it is 8.5 million dollars, not 6.

We (the minority on the WA state committee) have formed the "Primary Democrats"- we are campaigning to get voters to go the caucus and sign in "uncommitted" and pledge to support the winner of the primary at the LD caucuses.

[Justyce]

20. What a screwed up system...

sigh.

[Justyce]

19. Maybe if all states voted on the same day, we wouldn't

have this problem. Not to mention, Iowa & New Hampshire might not have so much influence on who our next president will be.

[JVS]

24. You'd think Florida would be used to being disenfranchised.

[madfloridian]

25. You posted this in two forums, didn't you?

Why is that?

[sakkatta]

26. nothing "democratic" about the democratic party

when was the last time we the voters chose the inner workings of our party or chose the rules or committee members: never.
The DNC thinks it is a top-down authoritarian organization where the politicians determine the rules and issue orders down to the states and local precincts.

[madfloridian]

27. Here's your post from GDP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3481858&mesg_id=3481858

I did not think we could do that.

[tkmorris]

41. I completely disagree with you in Delray Beach FL

If anyone has blown it here, it is our state Dems. They KNEW that national rules did not permit a Jan 29 primary, they signed off on those very same rules. They also knew the penalty for violating them. They pushed this anyway.

The DNC has tried everything they can do to avoid this confrontation, even offering to pay to pay for a caucus to be held after Jan 29, and the Florida Democratic leadership has told them to stuff it every time. This is the same "leadership" that has resulted in the Dems holding only 42 seats in the state house, even though there are more registered Dems than Repubs in this state. They have no interest in the Democratic Party platform, or in getting Democrats elected, they just want to hold on to their little seats of influence.

You want your primary vote to count? Call your state party officials and tell them to stop being such jackasses and accept one of the proposals the DNC has made to avoid this.

[LittleClarkie]

43. And now they're trying to blame it on the GOP

that is disingenuous.

[ddeclue]

50. NO IT'S NOT... YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Read my other posts. This is a Republican wedge issue here in Florida and it would have been used against those Democrats had they voted against it and had they done so the bill STILL would have PASSED. 78-42 is still a crushing victory. It's basic math - you need 19 Republican defectors before it even matters whether the Democrats oppose anything in Tallahassee. I know and helped elect 2 of the Democrats serving there now in 2006/2007.

Doug D.

[LittleClarkie]

55. Madfloridian lives there too and she disagrees

And she would also seem to be quite involved.

[ddeclue]

45. You clearly don't know anything about Florida politics even though you live here.

1) If the FDP agrees to hold a "caucus" it will disenfranchise 4.3 million Democratic voters whose primary votes are then null and void for all practical purposes and the picking of our delegates will fall to people like me, a Precinct Committeeman and a delegate to our 2007 Conference in October and likely also to any caucus picking event.

That will anger rank and file Democrats against the party and will make it harder to elect Democrats not easier here in this state.

2) The State House is not in our control even though we out number (on paper at least) the GOP in this state because of some very sophisticated gerrymandering that creates minority "supermajority" districts that places all African Americans in one district in such a percentage that one particular district goes overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party - which is fine and good - but it also takes the 3 or 4 surrounding districts from being competitive between the Democrats and Republicans into being solidly Republican.

We tried to remedy this in the 2006 election with the Committee for Fair Elections constitutional amendments that would have forced a fair redistricting that would have ungerrymandered these districts and made Florida competitive again. It didn't pass or parts of it were ruled unconstitutional.

Now that Proposal #3 passed in 2006, it is almost impossible to get a constitutional amendment to pass because the percentage required is 60%.


3) The FDP, and FDP Chair Karen Thurman absolutely have EVERY interest in seeing Democrats elected and work very hard at it as we do at the county level. Last year we shifted the state house by 16 votes towards the Democratic Party and we picked up our first special election victory in a state house earlier this year in 9 years with the election of Darren Soto in State House 49. Here in Orlando, we've shifted two seats from Republican to Democrat in House 36 (Scott Randolph) and 49, Darren Soto both of whom I know personally and worked hard to help elect.

4) It would NOT have matter had EVERY Democrat in the State House voted against this, it STILL would have passed overwhelmingly. A victory by one vote is still a victory.

All that would have happened by those 42 Democrats voting against it would be to give the Florida Republican Party ammmunition to use against them in next November's elections. The DNC ought to have some common sense and realize this.

Had we done what you want, we would lose quite a lot of seats in the State House in Nov 08 and our gains in 06 would have been reversed.

5) The end result of this rule being enforced by Howard Dean is that it will prevent Presidential Democratic candidates from appearing here until after the primary season is over and thus when the general election rolls around, our Democratic nominee will have very little exposure in Florida and we will lose this state.

It will also anger and discourage many Democrats from voting, caucus or no caucus, and this will cause us to lose not just the White House but Congressional and State Legislature seats as well.

This is a stupid rule and it is stupidly being enforced to the benefit of Republicans everywhere.

I will not give one dime to the DNC until we get our delegates BACK.

Doug De Clue
Precinct Committeeman, 311
Orlando
Orange County, FL

[tkmorris]

49. Yes I do

And that was a VERY insulting thing to say. Let us try to talk about this like civilized people shall we?

The Dems could have fought it, but they didn't. Whether it would have passed anyway is immaterial, the fact is they didn't even try. Because of course, they WANTED it to pass. There are provisions in DNC rules which allow for an exemption to be made if the state Dems could show they had it forced upon them by a Repub held legislature. They can't do that though because that isn't the case here.

I don't think you are thinking through the implications of the DNC allowing this. If they did they have lost any control whatsoever about the timing of primaries, and states would then engage in a "me-first" war to hold ever earlier primaries. THAT would be utter chaos, and terrible for the party nationally. Why do you not address any of that?

And why did I not see any post from you prior to the Florida House vote speaking out against this date change? We all knew then it was in direct conflict with the DNC rules, where was your outrage then?

[ddeclue]

52. No it's NOT immaterial...

You accomplish NOTHING by voting against it other than handing the Republicans a shovel to hit you over the head with in November 2008.

Please learn something about politics or find a new hobby. You don't know what you are talking about. 78-42 is still a crushing victory.

Doug D.

[Exiled in America]

56. Hey, you want to stop being a dick to everyone you disagree with each time you post?

Seriously.... I'm reading both your arguments and arguments from the other side right now, but every time someone posts in calm, sensible disagreement with you, you insult them.

Makes it hard to take you seriously.

[LittleClarkie]

59. Learn to deal with disagreement civilly or YOU find yourself a new hobby

You are not the only one with an opinion. Other Floridians have other opinions and some don't agree with yours. Suck it up.

[tkmorris]

61. I'll try one more time

BE CIVIL. Stop insulting me. Did I say we would have won if we had fought it? No I did not. All I am saying is that at least we would have standing to say it wasn't our fault. That is an important distinction, and the reason for the exceptions clause in the DNC rules.

Gerrymandering is not the sole reason they outnumber us 78-42. That however is another discussion so let's leave it aside and focus on the point.

If Florida is permitted to have a primary in violation of the schedule previously agreed to, why wouldn't every other state do the same? And what are the implications of that if they do?

[Exiled in America]

54. Well said - seems about right to me.

You seem to be able to articulate the problem in clear, rational sentences, rather than just insulting everyone. That explanation and your subsequent responses make the most sense to me on this issue.

[krispos42]

48. Do the Republicans have a similar rule?

If they don't, then maybe on those grounds something can be done because it is not affecting both parties equally

However, I will note this:

Florida Democrats could have voted against the bill, stating that by moving it up it will disenfranchise Democratic primary voters and denouncing the move as a Bush/Rove plan. They would have won most of the public's backing. Instead, they played ball, crumbling once again to Rovian tactics, just like the redistricting of Texas.

[ddeclue]

58. No they would NOT have won the Florida public's backing.

..because moving up the Florida PPP is highly popular here. Most big states (California, NY, Michigan, Florida, Illinois, etc.) are tired of tiny little states like New Hampshire and Iowa whose populations are less than some cities in these big states like Detroit, Chicago, NYC, LA, Miami, etc. getting to narrow the choices for President down to two very bad choices for them.

It is undemocratic in the extreme and the only fair solution is one national primary day just like we have one national general election day.

All that the Florida Democrats in the legislature could have accomplished by backing the DNC rule is their own defeats and a huge setback for Democrats here in Florida.

It's time for the DNC to realize that the big states are where it gets its money from and where it gets its votes in the general election.

I for one will NOT continue funding the DNC when it uses it against me.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[krispos42]

64. And how happy is the Florida public now?

Oh, I'm sure half of Florida is happy as hell. But you see my point.



I completely agree. We either need a single national primary day, like the last Tuesday before the last Wednesday in May, or we should divide the states up into 4 roughly equal blocs and have primaries on 4 subsequent Tuesdays in March, April or May. California, Texas, New York, and Florida could each anchor a bloc, and throw Iowa and New Hampshire in the first bloc as a sop to their "firstness".

[Colonel Bat Guano]

65. A Floridian with ddclue

I live in Florida. I understand the position of the Florida Dems and the national Dems. I also think ddclue is correct. It would have happened if every Florida Dem voted against it in the legislature.

So...the delegate erasure thing is because the Florida Dems didn't fight hard enough? If two dozen more Florida Dems voted against, it would have been okay?

This is absolute madness. It's insane for someone to have to say that Florida is an important state...especially after 2000, right?

But now the Dem candidates will lay back (some Dem officials were quoted this weekend as saying it's kind of a relief that they won't have to spend time and money in Florida and can concentrate on other areas) through next spring....

....and Republican candidates will be all over, painting the state Red. Literally.

Does that sound like a really good idea?

I get that the state has broken the rules by moving the primary date.

I do not get the idea that in punishing the state, we may wind up losing Florida's electoral votes to the Republicans. That's fucking insane.

This, combined with the California electoral vote thing that may halve their votes, means even the super lame Republican candidate (Rudy, Mitt, Thompson) could have a forty electoral vote advantage over a great Dem (Edwards, Obama, Hillary).

I don't want an insider caucus held at a state fair. I'd kind of like to vote, thanks.

If this isn't solved, FAST, like this month, it'll screw up the whole state.

And like ddclue, I will donate nothing to a national candidate until this is solved.

[Debi]

73. Well, the Florida GOP doesn't think so...but...

RPOF link: http://www.rpof.org/article.php?id=104

RNC Rule:

RNC RULE NO. 16
Enforcement of Rules

(a)(1) If a state or state party violates the Rules of the Republican Party relating to the timing of the selection process resulting in the ELECTION OF DELEGATES or alternate delegates to the national convention before the call to the national convention is issued, then the number of delegates to the national convention from that state shall be reduced by fifty percent (50%), and the corresponding alternated delegates shall also be reduced.

+++++++++

This all depends on when the Florida GOP selects it's delegates - if they way until after February 5th then there is no penalty.

The same goes for the Democrats - if the Florida Dems wait until after Feb. 5th to award delegates - then all Florida Delegates will be welcomed to the National Convention.

[napi21]

63. OK ddeclu, tell me WHY Fl. can't just have the Dem Primary some

other Tuesday in February? It doesn't HAVE to be on the same day as the Pub Primary. Pick aother darn date for goodness sake! All this damn fighting to be first is driving me nuts!

[madfloridian]

66. Just because. Cause...just because

They could not possibly have it in February. Then they would not be able to claim victimhood from Mean Dean's cruelty.

[napi21]

70. Well damn! I just KNEw there was a logical reason!!!!! Why the hell are they against

Dean? For god sake, he's done more for the advancement of the Dem Party than any DNC Chair that I remember! I've never heard hin say anything bad about Fl. I think they just want to stay in the headlines by any means necessary!!!!!!

[jmp]

71. Sure ... if Iowa & NH & SC & Nevada move back to Feb 5 ...

We'll do the same. As it stands now, we may as well move it up to Jan 8. It's not like we have anything left to lose.

[madfloridian]

67. What Florida did has a name...it is called not telling truth.

It is called propaganda.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

[pop goes the weasel]

69. the whole primary system is a crock

Very few of the primaries have any impact on chosing the party's presidential candidate. It's all just a bunch of blow and show to make people think they actually have some say. The real purpose, such as it is, of primaries is to select state and local level candidates. Maybe we could keep the current primary schedule, but not count presidential candidate votes until a common day. That would reduce the horse race aspect of the campaigning.

[mdmc]

74. I will take anything that might stop HRC's coronation

sucks for FL...