I am not gay

[salinen]

But I am curious about something I've noticed for many years about certain gay people. In fact, my best friend is a good example. He's in his sixties, married, one kid, but I'd swear he's gay. Now he's my best friend, so I couldn't care less, but I'd also swear that he doesn't know that he's gay.

Is it possible, in the american climate of bigotry to the point of violence, that some gay people push the reality into some deep denial area of the brain? I understand some rape victims have the ability to do this. My wife and I both know quite a few men in our community who we also think of as gay, and they would shocked to find out we do.

Larry Craig may actually think himself as a strait.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. How Do You Know He's Gay?

eom

[salinen]

10. That's difficult to answer

Probably the factor most prominant is how he reacts to and talks about certain men. He seems to almost fall in love. And he treats his wife like she's a piece of furniture.

[IndianaJones]

14. sounds like a lot of men to me. nt.

[Lex]

19. "how he speaks about certain men?" Have you heard guys talk about

sports heroes lately?

"Treats his wife like a piece of furniture?" Well . . .

[soothsayer]

2. Well I am. Jiminy God!

[MADem]

3. Well, he's in a dire 'strait' at this point--no one is buying his schtick...

The GOP are running away from him like a herd of gazelles confronted by a pack of hungry hyenas.

[pnwmom]

4. I don't know about your friend

but I believe it is possible to be in such deep denial, and have known people who were in that state for decades before finally coming out -- first to themselves, then to everyone else.

[Ian David]

5. Maybe Larry Craig is straight, but his penis is gay?

Maybe gayness can be a partially expressed recessive trait... like having eyes that are two different colors?

It could be that he's only gay from the waist down, making him a sort of sexual orientation Quagga.


<<<--- gay half . . . . . . . . Straight half --->>>

[Sapphocrat]

27. You're serious with this? n/t

[Ian David]

28. No, of course not.

[Sapphocrat]

35. Thank God.

I am hardly sarcasm-impaired, but: With all the mindboggling "theories" floating around on DU -- who's gay, what's gay, why he/she/it's gay, all Republicans are gay, all gays are child molesters -- it's nearly impossible to tell who's being serious anymore.

[Warpy]

6. You're right, of course

and men who are deeply closeted and lying to themselves tend to lash out at anything that threatens exposure: out gay men and women. Women are particular targets because they represent that "feminine" part of the closet case that he loathes, that attraction to men.

Sexuality is also a continuum. Few people are 100% gay or 100% straight, although the preference might be so pronounced that it seems that way.

I knew someone a long time ago who used to cruise rest areas at rush hour for quickies with suburban workadaddies on the way home from work to the wife and kiddies. He never did without. I think there are a lot of married men out there who are lying to everybody, especially themselves.

(my friend found a different hobby when AIDS hit. I doubt all of them did)

[panader0]

7. My neighbor's daughter used to cut herself

little razor cuts, but many of them, on her arms and legs. Then she came out as lesbian, and the self-mutilation ended.

[Kingshakabobo]

8. I am gay and I see it ALL the time.......

Men with children coming out in their 40s. I have a friend that always seems to be dating one - I don't know if my friend is hanging out at soccer matches or what. I thought I was a late bloomer at 28 years old.

My neighbor just told me of her dad's best friend, in HIS 60s, who just came out.........AND he WAS the biggest "homophobe" around. Apparently, he was always railing on about "the gays."

[Deja Q]

9. Does it really matter who a person wants to snorkel with?

He was caught trying to lure someone to cheat on his wife with.

Maybe we should have unisex bathrooms; to end these silly "is he or isn't he" arguments once and for all. (On a UK forum, a couple years ago, I asked a similar question - the consensus was nobody should care who one person does. I think they have a good point.)

Even Ricky Martin, in his heyday, kept saying the same thing. Does it really matter? If you choose someone, the only thing that matters is infidelity.

[IndianaJones]

12. Ricky Martin? the singer? nt.

[Javaman]

46. Where have you been? nt

[jobycom]

11. Why do you think he's gay? Are you confusing effeminate with gay?

"Effeminate" is just a cultural perception, based on cultural concepts of what is masculine and what is feminine.

"Gay" is a label to describe people who fall in love with or are physically attracted to people of the same gender.

Thanks to American television and Hollywood films, people assume gay and effeminate (for men) or "butch" (for women) are interchangeable, but they aren't. I've known gay men who were quite "manly" and I've met effeminate men who were quite clearly attracted to women only.

[salinen]

18. Maybe

What seems odd is that we're not the only ones who think this about my friend. So here, an entire community has labled him as gay. He may be the only person who doesn't know this. That's what I find most interesting. The behind the back talk and secrecy.

Do you think I should let him in on what everyone perceives? I'm not sure if that's the correct action.

[Lex]

20. Why do you care? How is it your business?

nt

[jobycom]

25. That I can't really answer.

I'm not gay (that I know of :) ) , so I'm the wrong person to ask on that. The rest is what I've picked up from gay friends, and from some historical research I did which required me to be very specific about the terminology I used. Others might have better insights on that.

[Dora]

34. "The behind the back talk and secrecy."

Idle gossip is as damaging to the gossipers as it is to the gossip-ees.

If you truly care about your friend, you'll keep your opinions about him to yourself. If he hasn't asked for feedback, then please don't tell him that y'all have been speculating about his sexual orientation.

His sexual orientation is his business. Likewise, the relationship between him and his wife is their business.

"What everyone perceives" is a result of individual observations combined with personal judgements and behind-the-back gossip.

Just love your friend, and leave him be to figure out his own identity issues if he has them. Just love him.

[Terran]

13. I think millions of American men

lead their lives like that. Repression is a factor, certainly, but also culture and custom. A lot of men don't figure it out sooner because they just do what's expected of them.

Sexuality is a continuum of behavior. It's hard to say that a man who's married to a woman and who has kids can suddenly become 'gay'; I think most such men are simply bisexual, but relate better to their own sex emotionally than the opposite sex. Same for women, of course, but there's a different cultural dynamic there, IMO. I am curious to know what he does that makes you so sure he's gay.

In Senator Craig's case, it's hard to say whether's he actually gay or not, because men, both gay and straight, indulge in sex in public places all the time...it's a bit of a secret that doesn't get discussed very often. From what I read of the detailed description of what he actually did, he sounds like an old pro at public restroom sex. His actions cannot be mistaken for anything other than what they are alleged to be. His actions, to me, also tend to suggest to me that he *is* gay, and not one of these wandering horny 'straight' men looking for an anonymous encounter.

[Lex]

15. Effeminate men can be straight. Macho manly-men can be gay.

Buy a clue.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Sometimes You Have To Judge The Intent Of A Person Or Poster

If he's saying something because he's ignorant , and not in a pejorative sense but that he just doesn't know, or he intended to insult somebody...In this case it's the former...

It's like picking out transgendered females from biological ones...Sometimes you get it right...Sometimes you get it wrong... And sometimes you mistake a biological one for a transgendered one...

[Lex]

22. I missed this game of "picking out" transgendered females

from biological ones. "Sometimes you get it right...Sometimes you get it wrong."

What?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. There Are Websites

There are websites with biological females and transgendered females and you can choose which is which...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Sexuality Is Mutable

That doesn't negate the fact that in another culture or milieu there are men that use woman as beards who wouldn't be exclusively involved with other men...

[JenniferJuniper]

17. He is, more or less,

leading a straight life and no doubt considers himself straight. It seems, however, as though his innate attraction to men has forced him to develop a remarkable ability to compartmentalize his life. "What I do in the men's room stays in the men's room, but aside from that I love my wife and I am not gay!"

As for your friends, I'd suggest you not stereotype based upon what you perceive to be "straight" or "gay" behavior. We tend to bring our own societal created biases to our assessment of the sexuality of others.

As an example, I had a cousin-in-law who everyone (but his wife) swore must have been gay. Just something about him. Turns out he was straight as an arrow. Loved women. Lots of women. But he's a lesbian now. Had sex re-assignment surgery a couple of years ago.

Goes to show you never can tell.

[libodem]

23. I think the term you are looking for is 'latent'

and I do think that denial is the defense mechanism. People can lie to themselves. I find self deception a problem in that once you are self deluded it is easier to deceive other people and drag them into your false perception. I've been mislead by my 'gay-dar', believing that I guessed someone's preference the gestures and mannerisms, I thought were 'telling'. I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Shame on me, who cares, why should it matter. BTW, my friends, last night, told me that tapping on the bathroom floor means 'pass the sports page'. The other friend said that some people keep their place in the paper with a bookmark but Larry Craig is different, he 'bends the pages over'.

[Sapphocrat]

26. No...

It's a homophobic society that forces "some gay people push the reality into some deep denial area of the brain."

And since everybody else has already asked you why you "swear" your friend is gay, I'll skip it.

[IndianaJones]

29. From the way your neighborhood sounds, perhaps an indentifier for the gays is called for...

an armband or something.

[msmcghee]

30. I think you are right.

Being gay is not an intellectual conclusion - it is an emotionally felt experience. We don't decide to be gay like we decide to go to UCLA.

That leaves the explanation open to narratives. That's what we latch onto when we have an emotion that controls our behavior - but that behavior is seen by society as bad or immoral.

We want to be seen as a good person by others - but we also have this emotion that we can not control.

So we pick up a narrative that is accepted in our society - like I can't be gay because I am married and have kids. Since our society believes it it's easy for us to convince ourselves that it must be true. It's a win - win.

[kenny blankenship]

31. If you think someone's gay && you think on this subject a lot, but you think that THEY don't know it

then the one with Teh Seekrit Gay is probably you.

[Burma Jones]

32. I have a cousin my age, lives in rural TN, father of six

and he is the second closest personality to the effeminate Gay Male stereotype I have known in my whole life, and I have been in such "Gay Friendly" pursuits as Live Theater, Amusement Park shows and Choral Music. But, by God (and I do mean God) he's straight dammit. His father, and I remember this vividly back when we were little kids, really tried to beat the Gay outta him, he would get beaten with a belt whenever he exhibited feminine traits. I was scared to death of this guy and my brothers and I were occasionally threatened with a visit to their house.

His first wife left him because he would only sleep with her to have kids. My Grandmother's response was "well, she know what she was getting into." I think his second wife is very happy to have a nice and kind husband around.

He is, of course, a Fundie and I have never asked him why the hell didn't you just go to SF, or even Memphis for Chrissake and just be Gay.

He's an only child and his Father built him a house about 100 yards away from the house in which he grew up.

[IndianaJones]

33. so you think he is gay, or he is just effeminate? nt.

[Burma Jones]

37. I think he's an example of what the OP describes........

so, yeah, I think he's Gay and effeminate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. My Best Friend Was Bisexual And A Competitive Bodybuilder

He owned a gym and he would tell me who was gay, who was straight, etcetera...

The notion that gay equals effeminate is a myth that needs to be buried...

I'm more interested in what makes a person gay, straight, or transgendered.... To me sexuality is mutable, and it's about much more than sex and body parts...

[Burma Jones]

41. True enough.......

Sorry if I suggested otherwise

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. No Problem

I think I offended somebody up thread...

This is a very sensitive topic...

I like Governor Terminator's take on sexuality... He said something to the effect "sex is sex... i like sex with a woman... if a man likes sex with a man it's no big deal..."

But people are missing the forest for the trees... Sex is about a lot more than body parts and who you sleep with... I think we know very little about sexuality and a lot about sex...

[SmokingJacket]

36. I can't speak for your neighbor, but if someone's asking for sex

in a men's bathroom, he knows.

[Toasterlad]

39. Yes, Of Course.

The human capacity for self-delusion is amazing. And there is tremendous pressure on people from both a societal and religious front to be straight. I have no doubt that there are MANY married men, fathers, who are gay and don't consciously accept it. I work with one.

[Madspirit]

40. What I Find Fascinating

What fascinates me is how obsessed straight people are with us gay people and our sex lives. I never think about straight people's sex lives. Not ever.
Lee

[yardwork]

43. I think that your preoccupation with your neighbor's sexuality is inappropriate

Frankly, I think your interest in his sexuality is a little creepy. You and your neighbors talk about him behind his back and speculate about his sexuality? What are you, in the third grade?

To answer your question, giving you the benefit of the doubt here -

Yes, lots of people don't realize that they are gay until middle age. That happened to me. However, I think that anyone who solicits sex with strangers of the same sex probably has a damn good idea that they are gay.

In my case, I married young and had a happy marriage with a good friend. Our sex life was "normal." We were faithful to one another for more than twenty years. It didn't occur to me that I am a lesbian until I fell passionately in love with a woman. Then everything clicked.

If, on the other hand, I had been engaging in sex with women I would probably have had a sneaking suspicion that I was gay. Just guessing. In case you're serious.

[cgrindley]

44. Larry Craig is a Strait? Like the Strait of Gibraltar or the Juan de Fuca? (nt)

[NMMNG]

45. So we're supposed to take you at your word that you're not gay

Even though you won't extend that courtesy to others?

[Bluebear]

47. "I am not gay" you say. Well, maybe you are and just don't know it?

:crazy:

[IndianaJones]

48. I suggest people ask their best friends or neighbors if they are gay. Just to make sure. nt.