You have to hand it to Larry Craig.......

[Kingshakabobo]

....At least until the dummy plead guilty.

I'm referring to 5th amendment rights and how easy people give them up.

I listened to Craig's taped interview and his staunch denials to the cop - even though both he and the cop knew what he was up to. The cop was CLEARLY trying to shame him in to an admission of guilt with his "aw shucks, I would respect you if you admitted it" bullshit. Why? Because the case was pretty weak. I bet 9 out of 10 people squeal on themselves in these cases and make it REAL easy on the cops. These offenses, by their very nature, have to be hard to prove and, I BET, had he gone to court WITH A DECENT ATTORNEY, he would have beat the rap. The cops would MUCH RATHER have him on tape rolling over on himself than go to court against a "fine upstanding citizen" to explain obscure foot signals absent any verbal or visual proposition.



Lesson number one: Shut your mouth until you have an attorney present.

Lesson number two(if you don't follow lesson #1): Deny till you die.


I don't why the subject of 4th and 5th amendment rights fascinates me. Maybe I have a guilty conscience. Maybe I have a criminal mind. Maybe I, from time to time, venture outside the house with small amounts of substances that SHOULD be legal - that's it, actually.

[tridim]

1. He only pled guilty because he is so deep in the closet with lots of secrets

He's a victim of his own faux morality.

[Rocknrule]

7. He's so far in the closet he can see Narnia

[BlooInBloo]

23. heh.

[saltpoint]

2. I think his wanting it handed to him is what got him arrested in the first place.

[Kingshakabobo]

13. .

:spank:

[Olney Blue]

3. Why didn't the cop snap some pictures with a small camera?

[YDogg]

4. I've been wondering the same thing.

[opihimoimoi]

6. me 3

[AlCzervik]

9. maybe he decided to just do his job?

i'm glad he take picture because that would make the cop look like a glory hound opportunist.

[Olney Blue]

12. Well, since we have cameras at every frickin intersection in my town,

it seems like cops could obtain real-time evidence in bathroom stings so it won't be a he said/he said.

Hi chimpsr-nice to see you! :hi:

[AlCzervik]

17. well maybe it's a privacy issue or something.

gawd pics would have just made me puke.
:o :hi:

[IDemo]

5. Headline re-write requested

:think:

[AlCzervik]

8. the crime of arrogance, him handing over his card saying "Do you know who i am!!?"

that says so much about him.

[Junkdrawer]

10. Fine. The cop takes him to the station, books him, and Larry...

has to explain it all to his wife. Maybe the lawyer cuts a deal and gets the record sealed...maybe he doesn't and there's a public trial.

Chances are ole Larry was screwed either way. Clearly, he was trying to do an impromptu nole contendere, hoping against hope that it could be hushed up later. "I did nothing wrong, but you have me over a barrel, so here's your lousy fine."

[Jed Dilligan]

11. You know I was going to post something like this,

but you beat me to it. The cop was doing the typical, I'll be your best buddy if you just confess, but if you don't I'll put you somewhere where you'll be beaten and raped, cop bullshit act. Don't fall for it, ever. In my opinion Craig spoke too much, corroborating the hand/foot movements etc. He should have just clammed up and acted like the cop was crazy until he got his lawyer involved.

[Kingshakabobo]

15. Exactly. He DID say too much.

Since I posted this, I watched Abrams on TIVO delay. Some attorney pointed out his statement "you solicited me" as being potentially damaging in court.

Interesting: The attorneys on the show say the pleading could be thrown out because the state neglected to notify him of his right to an attorney - it was a mail pleading and the rights weren't included.

[karlrschneider]

24. I think he initially believed his Senate "business card" would be a "get out of jail free".

And when it became clear that wasn't working, I think he somewhat panicked and forgot all the basic rules...if he ever knew them. One thing I noticed was his insistence that "I don't do -these- things"...It's obvious he knew exactly what "these things" are.

[napi21]

14. Actually, lesson 1 is don't do that stuff in public places where you'll

get caught!

[Kingshakabobo]

22. Yes...

....but there are other times people interact with the police where the police play the "nice guy" game. Traffic violations come to mind. "did you know how fast you were going, sir?"

[KoKo]

30. Actually, don't do things in Public Places that are Illegal....and then plead guilty and then Deny..

Keith Olbrmann does the blow by blow re-enactment of the Police Report here:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/29/olbermann-re-e...

[rocktivity]

16. RE: Lesson #2 (Deny till you die)

Couldn't the denials be used against you at trial?

:shrug:
rocknation

[Kingshakabobo]

18. Yes. Perhaps. That's why it's a good idea to keep your mouth completely shut. n/t

[napi21]

26. You can always use the "I don't recall" defense! Sure seems to work well

these days!!!

[rodeodance]

19. Minnesata has a provison where he could have gottom off scot free if

good for a year.

[rodeodance]

20. HERE:

Forum Name Latest Breaking News
Topic subject LOOK, he could have benefited greatly from having a lawyer:
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2972526#2972581
2972581, LOOK, he could have benefited greatly from having a lawyer:
Posted by rodeodance on Thu Aug-30-07 04:09 PM




Several lawyers in Minnesota said that Craig could have avoided the embarrassment of having to admit committing a crime if he had first hired a lawyer. Minnesota, like many states, has a program that allows first-time offenders to have charges against them dropped after a year if they do not engage in any further misconduct.

"Very likely, a lawyer would have gotten one of those dispositions . . . and Craig could have said, 'I never admitted I did anything wrong,' " said Stephen M. Simon, a professor at the University of Minnesota law school who runs a legal defense clinic that represents indigent inner-city men charged with prostitution and indecent exposure, among other crimes.

"A lot of these men . . . are horribly embarrassed," Simon said. "That explains the dynamics of him not going to a lawyer."

[e-mail]

[gatorboy]

21. I have no sympathy for a lawmaker that has such little knowledge of actual law.

[Kingshakabobo]

25. Me neither.

[karlrschneider]

28. Maybe he thought gay people in Minnesota would be treated like they are in Idaho!

:shrug:

He probably remembers the "Boys of Boise"

[Cha]

27. Then why did craig plead

guilty if he's so into denial?

[sendero]

29. As much as I don't like this jerk..

.... this does not seem like a righteous bust to me. For several reasons, but the foremost that no actual crime took place. The undercover cop should have waited for a verbal solicitation, and then there would have been a crime and a reason to bust him, plus an iron clad case.

As it is, the whole thing is subject to interpretation and I agree, it would have never gotten past a judge or jury. Problem was, the guy did not want the publicity, so he took the deal.

I don't feel sorry for him ONLY because he is a hypocrite and long suspected of homosexual activities. THAT's the reason he couldn't afford to let this see sunlight.

Sometimes there is justice in misjustice.

[Kingshakabobo]

33. I tend to agree EXCEPT that he peeped through the crack in the stall for two minutes.

Again, that's something that could be argued in court. Who hasn't walked up to a stall only to realize it's occupied? There's that quick second when you get to the door and feel like you have violated someone's privacy.

If he was some run-of-the-mill muck-jumper I WOULD probably feel sorry for him......but since he is a repig, I did cart-wheels when I heard then news.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. How Can You Confuse A Quick Glance With A Two Minute Stare?

Have you ever walked in on something you're not supposed to see?

Your reflexive reaction is to turn away; not look for two minutes...


He pled guilty to the lesser charges because he didn't want to be charged with "invasion of privacy"...


I don't think the senator wanted to testify in open court, with the press watching, and the cameras running, in a trial that certainly would have been on cable television, that he watched a man young enough to be his son, on the shitter for two minutes...

And ninety percent of criminal cases that go to a jury result in guilty verdicts... That percentage is steady from jurisdiction to jurisdiction... If you have a lawyer the state is not going to trial unless they think they have a winning hand...

[sampsonblk]

34. I agree with you on this

No clear crime. The situation is obviously weird, and will play great in the media. But there's no crime. And even on the tape, there's nothing that jumps out as being criminal on Craig's part. He played it about as well as he could. Except for the plea. And if that's all they got, then I am unconvinced. He did say he had to catch his flight.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Would You Admit

Would you admit to a crime involving moral turpitude if you were a senator from a conservative state because you "had to catch a flight"?

[mondo joe]

35. Being a peeping tom, and invading the privacy of a bathroom stall IS criminal.

It's righteous bust.

[Kingshakabobo]

36. Hey, Did you write that piece on discrimination and the "choice" meme.....

.......RE: gays versus bi-sexuals? The other night?? I'm looking but can't remember the author. it was in a thread.

[mondo joe]

37. Not unless I did it in my sleep.

:-)

[Kingshakabobo]

38. I found it......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1618434


to repost in THIS thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1701966

[sendero]

39. Then the officer..

.... should have arrested him for THAT, at the time THAT happened.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. The Undercover Officer Was Waiting To See If He Would Commit Additional Crimes As Is His Right

eom

[sendero]

46. Except...

... the additional "crimes" are suspect at best, and I maintain no jury would convict someone of tapping their foot.

I damn sure wouldn't, even if reasonably convinced that it was a signal.

The officer should have gotten a verbal proposition, then he would have an airtight solicitation case. As it is, he had an airtight "creep" case.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. He Pled Guilty To "Interferance With Privacy" For Watching The Cop On The Shitter For One To Two

Minutes.

[mondo joe]

42. That is what he was finally charged with. Right?

[Catherine Vincent]

31. You know what I think?

If Republican Larry Craig had a wide stance, that cop was smart enough to check the toilet for evidence. There was probably no evidence (urine or poo). Craig's explanation to the authorities is digging himself in a deep hole. You noticed that the cops released the tape after Craig's "I'm not Gay!" press conference. Why did he need a wide stance if there was no evidence. Okay, maybe he was constipated.

I know, it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it!

[Kingshakabobo]

32. The badge under the partition caused him to "tense up."

[spoony]

43. I've heard it said that

both humans and fish only get caught because they open their mouths.

[Kingshakabobo]

47. LOL. I was looking for the old mobster quote......

....I think it was Tony "The Big Tuna" Accardo that said it.

[burythehatchet]

45. I think you're mistaking your contempt for injustice perpetrated by authority

with the actions of an unwell man who would be harmless as a local Wal Mart greeter but who does terrible damage as a legislator of our laws.

[H2O Man]

48. He thought he

could talk his way out of it.

[Strawman]

50. That's right

What nobody is saying is that a constitutional officer is basically on tape admitting in so many words to a cop that he didn't give a shit about other people being entrapped. He was more than happy to make this quietly go away and go back to the Senate and put some more Federalist society types on the Federal bench.

He put his political ass over his rights and his oath and in the process lost both. He even played the "do you know who I am card" making it clear that he was entitled to a different level of treatment by the police than ordinary citizens. That's contemptible.