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Help! My Dad has "crossed over"!!! (and a brief rant about ongoing funding for the occupation)

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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:20 PM
Original message
Help! My Dad has "crossed over"!!! (and a brief rant about ongoing funding for the occupation)
I went out to visit with my Dad earlier today and he has always been a staunch Democrat. In fact, he was pretty much the reason that I ended up becoming a Democrat in the first place. Now, I will say that he probably tends towards being a slightly more conservative Democrat on some issues, probably since he is a bit older (he's almost 80) but he has NEVER been a Bush supporter and has never defended him either, at least not to me anyway.....until today that is. He talked about reading some new book expose' about Bush (I can't remember title of the book but I think it's by somebody named Goldsmith and all of the sudden seems to have developed some newfound "respect" for him arguing that he actually seems like he's smarter than most people think he is (gag). When I pointed out how mediocre of a student he was in college (business school?), he claimed that that he did well in college/business school and that he was only a mediocre student when he was younger (huh?). He also seems to have bought into the position espoused by Bush and our own "esteemed" Senator Biden that we need to keep funding the troops involved in the Iraqi occupation as long as they are "in the field" and he essentially argued that it would be disastrous for our troops if Congress cut off funding for the troops now. :wow: After I recovered from the shock of his statements (he seems to be a pragmatist like I am when it comes to the possibility/necessity of war but he is NOT a "warmonger" by any means and he, like me, NEVER supported the Iraq war/occupation), I pointed out that if Congress defunds the occupation, the troops are still going to be safe because then Bush would (hopefully) HAVE to bring them home where they WILL be safe. My Dad responded by saying that he thinks that it is probably irrelevant whether or not funding gets cut off by Congress, Bush probably has enough money to keep the occupation going until the end of his Presidency, which, sadly enough, he probably does. However, if he DOES actually have enough money, then his claim that more money is needed to "keep our troops safe" (which, coming from Bush, is laughable considering the noticeable lack of armor, etc. for our troops despite all of the money that we've poured into the Iraqi occupation) is very disingenuous, if not an outright lie, but, sadly, so very typical of this (mis-)administration. Is the insanity spreading? What the *%$#@! is wrong with Senators like Biden whom are SUPPOSED to be fighting against Bush and his insanity? :grr: Do Senators like Biden and others refusing to press for withdrawal and/or support indefinitely funding the Iraqi occupation NOT understand that the GOP are not going to suddenly start giving them sloppy wet kisses and being nice to them if they make some kind of trashy "compromise" and take troop funding "off the table" as the GOP has recently suggested (despite their fervent claims of "progress" in Iraq). Have they completely forgot how in 2002 a lot of Democrats voted for authorization to allow Bush to use military force against Iraq only to have Bush/GOP turn right around and smear them into electoral defeat (and a lot of them truly believe that they HAD to vote the way that they did or face defeat at the polls). I understand the political "calculus" that many of them are looking at but, frankly, that makes me feel a whole lot worse NOT better since they are PURPOSELY condemning more US troops, contractors, innocent Iraqi civilians, and the families/loved ones of all of the above to needless tragedy out of a desire for political advantage. There does not appear to be any apparent groundswell of support among the general public for keeping our troops in Iraq, a majority of people are already prepared to reject the so-called "Petraus Report" urging a continuation of the "surge" and spinning a whole host of lies about "progress" in Iraq, and the GOP has not been in a weaker position politically in years. Even their "spin" seems to be wearing off with a lot of people. The overall strategy among the Democratic leadership in terms of supporting ongoing funding of the Iraqi occupation appears to be giving the GOP enough rope to "hang themselves" with in 2008 while protecting/burnishing the "image" of the Democratic party in terms of national security by supporting and voting for more funding for the occupation but it seems to me that, thanks to Bush et. al, the GOP has ALREADY "hung themselves", so why worry so profusely about what "they" might think. Also, Does Biden et. al NOT understand that when (some of) their own party members hear THEM say pretty much the same thing coming out of Bush's lips that they might start thinking that what Bush says MUST be true/right/credible? This whole thing sickens me to no end! :puke: We need REAL Democrats, code red!!!! :dem: On a more personal note, does anybody know what this book might be that my Dad is reading and does anybody have any suggestions for helping bring my Dad back towards the "light?" :scared:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. This Biden-Bush shit has got to stop right this second
Bush wants to keep the troops in Iraq to "win" the war.

Biden wants to set a deadline, start bringing troops home, and get a political settlement.

The two couldn't be further apart.

You only help Bush by focusing on what THEY want you to focus on.
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I know the Democrats don't support Bush's "strategy"
However, very few of them are willing to defund the occupation and/or even to force Bush to accept more (binding) conditions on funding. I don't think that any sensible person out there believes that Bush desires anything other than somehow keeping us in Iraq until after he leaves and every Republican except for Ron Paul, if they win in 2008 (heaven help us), has vowed to keep us there indefinitely and will care just as little about the will of the people and our troops in Iraq. Biden and all of the other Democrats have certainly put forward far more sensible ideas/plans about how to extricate us from Iraq and I strongly doubt that any of them would've even taken us into Iraq in the first place but Bush isn't going to consider any of our ideas, let alone implement any of them until he is forced to and the only real way that he will do that is if his hand is forced by an impending lack of funds to continue his occupation. However, Biden and other Democrats declaring unequivocally that they will fund the occupation no matter what, which is what I'm hearing from him and a lot of other Democrats, doesn't do much to help our troops, particularly when most of the money that is being poured into Iraq isn't even being managed properly.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sadly, There is No Antidote for Repiglickin' Kool Aid
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. This might be it.
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 11:42 PM by The Wielding Truth
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/magazine/09rosen.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


If it is and your Dad reads the new book, he will probably regain his senses.




-snip-
Nine months later, in June 2004, Goldsmith resigned. Although he refused to discuss his resignation at the time, he had led a small group of administration lawyers in a behind-the-scenes revolt against what he considered the constitutional excesses of the legal policies embraced by his White House superiors in the war on terror. During his first weeks on the job, Goldsmith had discovered that the Office of Legal Counsel had written two legal opinions — both drafted by Goldsmith’s friend Yoo, who served as a deputy in the office — about the authority of the executive branch to conduct coercive interrogations. Goldsmith considered these opinions, now known as the “torture memos,” to be tendentious, overly broad and legally flawed, and he fought to change them. He also found himself challenging the White House on a variety of other issues, ranging from surveillance to the trial of suspected terrorists. His efforts succeeded in bringing the Bush administration somewhat closer to what Goldsmith considered the rule of law — although at considerable cost to Goldsmith himself. By the end of his tenure, he was worn out. “I was disgusted with the whole process and fed up and exhausted,” he told me recently.
Nine months later, in June 2004, Goldsmith resigned. Although he refused to discuss his resignation at the time, he had led a small group of administration lawyers in a behind-the-scenes revolt against what he considered the constitutional excesses of the legal policies embraced by his White House superiors in the war on terror. During his first weeks on the job, Goldsmith had discovered that the Office of Legal Counsel had written two legal opinions — both drafted by Goldsmith’s friend Yoo, who served as a deputy in the office — about the authority of the executive branch to conduct coercive interrogations. Goldsmith considered these opinions, now known as the “torture memos,” to be tendentious, overly broad and legally flawed, and he fought to change them. He also found himself challenging the White House on a variety of other issues, ranging from surveillance to the trial of suspected terrorists. His efforts succeeded in bringing the Bush administration somewhat closer to what Goldsmith considered the rule of law — although at considerable cost to Goldsmith himself. By the end of his tenure, he was worn out. “I was disgusted with the whole process and fed up and exhausted,” he told me recently.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Buy him a copy of this...
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Or you can get one from the IN Public Library system for free.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. Tell Dad the grandchildren are going down to enlist Monday.
Maybe that will bring him back to his senses.
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-11-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. The book title is "Dead Certain"
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