Why Are Miami Police Now Carrying Assault Weapons?

[billbuckhead]

Why Are Miami Police Now Carrying Assault Weapons?

"If you want to know why Miami police officers are now allowed to carry assault weapons, just ask the city’s chief of police:

An advocate for tighter gun control laws, Timoney blamed expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons 4 years ago for the escalation of firepower on Miami's streets.

''This is really a failure of leadership at the national level. We are absolutely going in the wrong direction here,'' Timoney told the Miami Herald. 'The whole thing is a friggin' disgrace.''

In short, Miami police – and law enforcement officers around the nation – are getting shot and killed because the gun lobby has insisted on the manufacture, sale and ownership of guns that outpower our law enforcement officials.

Not only is this an irresponsible position on the part of the gun lobby, it puts our police – and us – directly at risk for death and injury.

Every time a new high-powered gun is invented, the gun industry gets the “gun enthusiasts” to prevent any attempt to keep the dangerous firearms from entering the civilian market. Remember, selling guns is about profits.

But the downside of the profits made by coming up with new, highly lethal guns is that our law enforcement officials then have to match the new firepower. It creates an arms race on our streets, with the small arms industry profiting from selling to both sides.

If more powerful guns weren’t put on the market with regularity, the gun manufacturers would start to lose money."
------------------snip-----------------------
<http://www.gunguys.com/>
<http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_259100434.html>

Now police departments will have to buy assault rifles to keep up with the gun lobby's arms race.

[dmallind]

1. Except....

...the guns they are talking about are about half as powerful as an average deer rifle. But they are black and plastic and ugly and scary looking.

[jpgray]

16. A deer rifle has a large capacity magazine and is easily concealed via a collapsible stock?

That's news.

[krispos42]

26. Some do

Any rifle that has a removable magazine can have any capacity you want. Hell, one company makes a 90-round magazine for Ar-15s and Mini-14s!!!

And collapsable stocks are used for storage or transport, not concealment. Even a folded-up Kalishnikov is three to five times longer than your average handgun, and 4 times as heavy, to boot.

[benEzra]

39. "Easily concealed"--are you serious? Have you ever handled one in person?

easily concealed via a collapsible stock?

"Easily concealed"--are you serious? Have you ever handled one in person?

From the other thread, I thought you were someone who had some experience with carbines, but apparently I'm wrong...

Do you realize that a "collapsible" AR stock is only adjustable within a narrow range, and does not actually collapse to the receiver? A civilian AR with the stock adjusted as short as it will go is still 32" long; it's still a functional shoulder stock even when adjusted all the way down. A Ruger mini-14 with the stock folded is more than 30" long, and four or five inches thick. And yes, you can get folding stocks for bolt-action deer/sniper style Remingtons and Winchesters.

A Winchester 94 is WAY more concealable than an AR or civvie AK. And if you saw off the Winchester's barrel and stock (which you can't do with an AR or AK), there is simply no comparison.

Here's an 1800's Winchester being fired "from the hip" like the doofuses in Hollywood think rifles should be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2oZ6Kv_qo

That rifle can be continuously topped off through the side port, and us .44 caliber. The same rifle in .30-30 Winchester is ballistically comparable to an AK-47, and will shoot through police body armor like Saran Wrap.

Here's a similar 1800's style Winchester with the barrel and stock cut down.



If this gun used a straight lever instead of a loop, it could probably be concealed under a jacket in a shoulder holster, like a handgun; note how skinny and short it is compared to the civilian AK below, never mind the even more bulky AR-15. FWIW, it was a cut-down Winchester like this that was used in the high-profile Miami tourist shootings of the 1990's, though you'd have never known it from the national media coverage.

A deer rifle has a large capacity magazine...?

The size of the magazine of a detachable-magazine rifle is a function of what size magazine is inserted at the moment.

With a hunting magazine, the capacity of my "AK-47" is 5 rounds.


Civilian AK (non-automatic) in deer hunting configuration, with 5-round hunting magazine

Or, with a plinking/defensive magazine, the capacity of a Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle would be 20 or 30 rounds, most commonly, just like a civilian "AK."

BTW, the two rifles above are identical in every way except for looks. They fire the same ammunition at the same rate of fire, same accuracy, same effective range, same everything. The major difference is that the deer rifle's gas system is upside down compared to the AK's, in order to fit within a traditional 19th century styled stock.

BTW, over-10-round rifle magazines weren't a 20th century innovation; Civil War era carbines had 15 to 18 round magazines, and capacities went higher through the latter part of the 19th century:


Evans rifle, made from 1873 to 1879; capacity 28 to 34 rounds, depending on model. The magazine was helical, like a modern Calico. Caliber was .44 Evans, similar to .44-40.

[slackmaster]

45. The AWB did not prohibit the sale of collapsible stocks

Changing the the stock on a rifle requires no special tools or skills.

[Fla_Democrat]

2. It's a shame

that they allowed the federal ban on cocaine to expire as well, now the stuff is everywhere. :eyes:

[stillcool]

7. wow..do tell...

I used to live in West Palm. I wasn't aware of any 'federal ban', or any ban at all. When did this take place?

[Fla_Democrat]

10. It's a crazy idea I got from

oh, I don't know, all the federal sentences given for possession of the substance.

Federal law imposes a mandatory five-year federal prison sentence on anyone convicted of selling 500 grams or more of powder cocaine but the same mandatory five-year sentence applies to a defendant convicted of selling only five grams (the weight of a few sugar packets) of crack cocaine. A 10-year mandatory sentence is dictated for 5000 grams of powder but only 50 grams of crack. Meanwhile, federal law dictates a five-year minimum sentence for possession of crack cocaine, while the maximum sentence for possession of all other drugs is one year.
http://www.cccr.org/justice/issue.cfm?id=19

The :eyes: was a :eyes: to the notion that banning an item removed it from availability. Kinda like the notion that expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons 4 years ago for the escalation of firepower on Miami's streets. So, with the amount of drugs on the street, one can only assume the ban has expired, no?

[stillcool]

12. ooohhh...

thought I missed something...I get it. Funny how the law 'works'.

[Mojorabbit]

3. And Miami

police are almost paramilitary as it is. I hate this trend in law enforcement. It is so different from when I was a kid many many years ago. People were armed then too but you did not see this kind of violence from either. Is it a frustration level in society. Is it like when you put too many rats in a cage and crowd them and they turn on eachother?

[PDenton]

35. Rats in a cage

Actually Miami is a rathole. A few millionaires don't exactly spruce up the place. Why anybody would want to live there blows my mind. Now you can guess why the housing bubble is hitting that area hard. Unless you just love mojitos and skin cancer, there is no reason to put up with the crime, congestion, and hurricanes.

I'm on the police side, though the Miami police are useless and the government down there can't handle a budget, much less crime.

[Swamp Rat]

4. I want a Howitzer to defend against the police and mercenaries hired by the US Governement

to kill US citizens.

[tnlefty]

28. Heh, heh, and I don't blame you after I saw Blackwater in the

streets during Katrina. I've always wanted a tank.

[KansDem]

40. Hey! That's *my* Howitzer!!! How did you get on my property to take a photo of *my* Howitzer???

My security's been breached! Now I'll need a bigger gun...


Hmmmmm...

Does it come with a warranty?

[shimbo]

5. Why

If the expiration of a national law is the problem...

why is only Miami have issues?

Of course, many of us know the real reason but it wouldn't be political correct to spell it out.

[Richard Steele]

6. It's not. This is factless fearmongering claptrap.

That law never affected the sales of the firearms
that gungrabbers love to hate, and there has been no
increase in police injuries since it expired.

The statement quoted is pure BS from start to finish.

[benEzra]

8. Funny, police have been using small-caliber carbines for decades...

M1 carbine, Ruger mini-14, AR-15 variants. A .223 carbine has a lot less potential for collateral damage than a .729 caliber shotgun shooting slugs (too much penetration in an urban setting) or buckshot (scatter and potential for ricochet). Actually, police rifles go back much further than that; the .30-30 Winchester of late 1800's vintage is the ballistic twin of the AK's 7.62x39mm round.



BTW, I'd like to know what "new, highly lethal guns" the "gun guys" (paid anti-gun scaremongers that they are) think are on the market. Other than optics, high performance weapons lights, and all-weather materials, civilian gun technology has been pretty static since the 1940's, and relatively so since the early 1900's.

[fishnfla]

9. UM vs FIU football game this week?

[Blashyrkh]

11. It's to make you all comfortable with seeing armed guards wandering around.

Get used to it.

[derby378]

13. Apparently, the Brady campaign doesn't think we're scared enough

Those that choose security over freedom deserve neither...

[billbuckhead]

17. Yeah the alleged security of owning a gun vs the freedom of not owning guns

There are less than 200 justifiable homicides per year vs 4 times as many wife killings by gun owners. The US leads all advanced nations in murder and gun crime by multiples

[krispos42]

22. 1.2 million to 2.5 million civilian defensive gun uses per year

of which, 400 assailants die.

Sounds to me like between 1,199,600 and 2,499,600 times a year, a crime is stopped by a gun-wielding citizen.

So only 1 DGU in between 3,000 and 6,250 progresses to the point where the assailant is not deterred by the gun and is shot by the intended victim.

Which would mean that honest gun owners don't generally shoot people even in a life-threatening situation. Which is to be completely expected of honest citizens. Which means that characterizing honest citizens who own guns ase trigger-happy loons is both false and insulting.

The US leads all advanced nations in murder and gun crime by multiples

Not for long! The handgun-free and assault-weapon-free Brits are quickly catching up to us! Yay!



Look, it's people like you and Sarah Brady that put the kind of weapons you're screaming about in the national spotlight in the first place. You figured you'd take the opportunity to advance your agenda of marginalizing and demonizing gun owners (with the ultimate goal of a 'civilized', gun-free society) by banning the sale of new guns that had certain 'scary' features. Guns that few people owned or were even aware of as really being available on the civilian marketplace. I mean, surely your arguments that "these weapons serve no legitimate sporting purpose" would win over the masses, right?

But with the weapons now in the spotlight, the entire country got plenty of information about them. People asked questions, tried them out, and began buying them. "I'd better get mine before they're banned" mentality almost certainly played a role here as well.

They were impressed with the ergonomics, with the accuracy, with the reliability, with the ease of use, with the light recoil, with the adaptability. The number of so-called 'assault weapons' in civilian hands skyrocketed during the years of the "ban", and remain strong to this day.

You and your ilk put it in the spotlight, and your own actions to achieve your goals actually did the exact opposite of what you wished to achieve. You and your ilk, if your goal had truly been to keep 'assault weapons' off the streets, should have kept quiet instead of acting as an unpaid advertising company for gun sellers.

And yet, you keep screaming about them! Even though there are now millions of such weapons in private hands, many many more than 13 years ago when the ban kicked in, crime and homicide rate are way down. You might as well walk around Buckhead with a sandwich board sign with the name of a local gun store on it, for all the good your screaming is doing.

And in case you haven't noticed, the other industrialized nations in the world do a hell of a lot better at using patches of socialism to fill the holes in the fabric of capitalism than we do. Things like cheap or free higher education, excellent grade schools, and universal health care. Did I mention labor unions that encourage the development of the single-income family so that one parent can say home and raise the kids properly? And they don't have the anti-intellectual Talibornagain fundies that we have in this country demonizing people for wanting to attend college.

[billbuckhead]

27. Crime has been up a lot for some time, driven by gun crimes in particular

It's hard to debate someone who just won't admit reality. I think exposure gun powder must cause people to lie.

Violent Crime Is Up For 2nd Straight Year
Big Cities Showed Largest Increase
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 19, 2006; Page A01


A surge in violent crime that began last year accelerated in the first half of 2006, the FBI reported yesterday, providing the clearest signal yet that the historic drop in the U.S. crime rate has ended and is being reversed.

Reports of homicides, assaults and other violent offenses surged by nearly 4 percent in the first six months of the year compared with the same time period in 2005, according to the FBI's latest Uniform Crime Report. The numbers included an increase of nearly 10 percent for robberies, which many criminologists consider a leading indicator of coming trends.
------------snip--------------------------
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/18/AR2006121800377.html>

Murder Rate Up, Other Crime Down
Murders Up 2% In 1st Half Of 2005, But Rapes, Arsons Declined
WASHINGTON, Dec. 19, 2005

AP) The U.S. murder rate jumped 2 percent during the first six months of this year, with the highest increases in small towns and the Midwest, the FBI said Monday. Crime fell nationwide for other significant offenses, including rape, arson and assault.

After a dramatic decline in the number of murders last year, when the murder rate fell 5.7 percent, it ticked upward 2.1 percent between January and June.

Citing figures collected under its uniform crime reports, the FBI said cities with fewer than 10,000 people saw the largest increases, of 13 percent.

Murder rates rose across the country, but the Midwest saw the highest increases with 4.9 percent. Kansas City, for example, reported 56 murders in the six months of this year but only 39 during the same time period in 2004.
---------------snip---------------
<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/19/national/main1135414.shtml>

And of course since there are far more links, hundreds in fact, here's just few of the first to come up on Google.

<http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/04/dobbs.crime.stats/index.html>
<http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3842533a-fa44-11da-b7ff-0000779e2340.html>
<http://www.becomethemedia.com/?p=605>
<http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/270533/murders_robberies_drive_up_us_violent.html>

[krispos42]

34. You're drawing a trend based on two data points?

Ouch. Good luck with that. Let's try this instead...



Ah, that's better!

See what a roaring economy will do for you? And 100,000 extra police on the street?


But here's the real key, Billbuckhead. Here's the real key.

The Clinton COPS program under BushCo has been systematically defunded. Many of the 100,000-plus police officers hired by various cities have been let go because the federal money dried up at the same time the economy was slowing down, and cities had smaller budgets.

And, surprise surprise, this started happening just about three years ago.

Posted 12/1/2003 11:56 PM Updated 12/2/2003 2:18 AM

Federal, local cuts pull cops off streets

By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY

MINNEAPOLIS — The federal program that added more than 100,000 cops to local police forces and helped to cut crime to historically low rates during the past decade is being rolled back because local governments can't afford to keep many of the officers on the street.

The Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) program was a hallmark of the Clinton administration, providing more than $8 billion in grants to saturate crime-plagued areas with officers and forging unprecedented ties between cops and neighborhood patrols. From New York to Los Angeles, "community policing" became a symbol of America's frustration with the high crime rates of the early 1990s — and of governments' big spending in a soaring economy.

But now budgets are leaner, and law enforcement analysts say that the largest federally funded buildup of local police in U.S. history is being washed away by cutbacks and retirements.

The COPS program, which is being phased out by the federal government, has provided grants to pay for all or part of entry-level officers' salaries during their first three years of work. Agencies that received COPS grants were required to keep the officers for a fourth year. Now, many cash-strapped police departments that have met their obligation to the grants program are trimming their ranks to meet increasingly tight local budgets.

<more>

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-12-01-cops-cover_x.htm

[billbuckhead]

31. Reality is that there are less than 200 justifiable homicides per year

and here's the link. Reality is the dead bodies. Gun lover fastasy is phone polls done by agenda driven Reichwingers like American Enterprise liar John Lott. Also you neglect to include all the times guns are used for crime and these crimes are never reported. There are no gun shops or pawn shops in Buckhead. One reason it's an excellent place to live.
<http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/justify.htm>

[aikoaiko]

42. Or maybe its such a nice place to live because there IS a gunshop sellling to locals.

Chuck's Firearms Inc
http://www.chucksfirearms.com/


But you already knew that when you wrote the opposite, didn't you bill?

[billbuckhead]

47. You have to admit this zip code is extremely low in gun pimps

Usually poor neighborhoods in the more backward states must endure the gun pushers and the criminals and would be criminals that buy from these merchants of death. Often these guns are taken to other states and even other nations where guns are harder to buy to promulgate the terrors of the gun culture.

[krispos42]

53. I count 4 gun dealers in all of Atlanta

Of which, one is in the Buckhead area.

Most poor areas are in cities. Most cities try to squeeze out gun dealers because they listen to people like you too much. If possible, they also pass their own local gun laws as well. So there are actually very few gun dealers in poor areas or in cities.

Chicago lists exactly one gun dealer in it's city limits. I guess Chicago is one giant wealthy neighborhood, then?

[slackmaster]

46. Body Count Fallacy

It's meaningless to cite that figure without making an effort to quantify the number of times guns have been used in self-defense without killing someone or even firing them.

[krispos42]

51. Reality is less than 400 police justifiable homicides per year

I guess that means the hundreds of thousands of cops are doing crap fighting crime? That only 400 crimes were stopped by police in any given year?

That's a lousy critiria for determines effectiveness of a police force.

"Alright, troopers, listen up. We only shot five perps last week, and that means we're nine down for the month. It's almost October, for Christsakes! We didn't spend $600 on a pistol and buy ammo that costs a buck a shot for it to sit in your holster day in and day out!

"Okay, I've decided to offer some motivation. If we get our quota for the month, which means making up for the minus-nine we are at now, plus seven more for the week, I'm buying us all pizza! Remember, sixteen this week! Now get out there! And remember, Tasering doesn't count!"

And if I'm not counting the unreported crimes committed with guns, then you're not counting the unreported defensive gun uses. So I'd say it's a wash.



Chuck's Firearms, Inc. is the name of a gun dealer.

3099 Peachtree Rd NE
Atlanta, GA

http://www.yellowpages.com/mc/Atlanta-GA/Guns-Gunsmiths/city-Atlanta?t=gun

According to Google Earth, that puts Chuck in the east-central area of Buckhead. Now you have something to paint on your sandwich board sign! :-)

But the quantity of gun stores in a given neighborhood is essentially meaningless. Gun ownership is a bit on the pricy side, or at least, legitimate ownership is.

What's telling about Buckhead is the lack of pawnshops. If there are few or no pawnshops, then there are probably no 'payday loan' places, no check-cashing joints, and the liquor stores and bars are well-separated from each other.

These are all signs of a comfortable community. These are all positive signs of a community of people that are prosperous, educated, and hard working, with average paychecks well above par. Lots of substantial houses on comfortable lots of land. A good student-teacher ratio. A lot of late-model vehicles on the road, a disproportionate number of them luxury brands.

An area that would have little crime. An area, in fact, that is lot like the affluent Connecticut suburb my parents live in.

Pawnshops, liquor stores, payday loan places and check-cashing joints are all symptoms of a struggling area, maybe one in an economic slump or slow decline. The fact that they are few and far between in Buckhead means Buckhead is a good place to live.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

24. 'advanced nations'

Like brazil, russia, south africa...

OH yeah, I forgot, they arent 'advanced'...

[appal_jack]

38. hey 'buckhead: don't like guns?

then don't buy any.

-app

[billbuckhead]

48. The second amendment says regulated and I don't want any nut having one

Each gun sold lowers the quality of life in America. The USA has the worst gun policy of all advanced nations by dead bodies per capita, men in prison, freedom of movement and billions spent on damages. If you're in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. The UK had only 46 murders by gun last year, a twenty year low, Team USA almost beat that in one day.

[krispos42]

54. And 800 murders by "other". Historic, 40-year highs, actually.

Double what it was back in the '60s.

But you know that already. You choose to ignore it, but you still know it.

[Synnical]

14. They aren't - they don't have the budget

Are you aware of Timmoney's past?

[Cetacea]

15. Four officers shot in one incident last week.

The shooter had an assault gun. One officer was killed. There were two officers killed in Florida last month in separate affairs.

The Miami police were out-gunned last week.

[hang a left]

19. And like this happens daily????

I think not.

The last big story with something like this happening, that I can remember, was in Los Angeles maybe...10 years ago with some bank robbers.

People that want to control gun ownership after all we have been through in last 6 years just baffle me.

Mind you I hate guns. I am scared to death of them. However, I was raised by a single mother who always carried a pearl handled 22 in her glove box. I may not own one, but damn it, I want my neighbors to have a case load.

[krispos42]

25. Good questions there...

Four cops, with pistols readily availble in holsters on their hips. The guns are kept loaded and ready for action. The police officers train and practice to draw and shoot rapidly from that holster on their hip.

And yet... somehow one person managed to pull a four-foot-long rifle from his vehicle and beat all four officers to the punch.

Something does not add up. They weren't out-gunned, they were either out-shot or out-drawn by the bad guy.


And police are routinely outgunned. They spend their lives being outgunned. Any of the tens of millions of deer rifles in this country are far more powerful, shot for shot, than anything fired from an AR-15 or AK-47-style rifle. The shotgun in my closet is the same type as the police use, and the ammuntion I have for it is the same stuff used by them.

[billbuckhead]

30. The cops were surprised just like the average gun nut would be when challenged

Ironic that packing guns don't seem to prevent cops from being shot at or banks from being robbed. Gun ownership is false security that more often ends up with loved ones or neighbors being killed not by "perps' but by "legal" gun owners. There are less than 200 justifiable homicides a year by private gun owners vs 3 times as many wife/girlfriend killings by private gun owners.
<http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/justify.htm>
<http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm>

[krispos42]

33. I addressed that in Reply #22

The fact that 200 people are justifiably killed by civilians does not equate to 200 crimes a year being stopped by armed civilians.



And speaking of irony...

Banning guns doesn't seem to prevent murder or crime. Banning guns is false security. Just ask them there over in the UK.

Oh, and don't forget this...





Wow, look at the slaugher rates of police skyrocket as deadly assault weapons flood the streets!!! Just marvel at the blue line that indicates non-handguns (shotguns and rifles)! Look how HIGH it was before the ban, then dropped like a rock during it, then soars up and away after the 1993 ban expires! The damn thing is near vertical! Oh, the bloody, bloody horror of those bayonet-mounting lugs!

[billbuckhead]

50. From now on when a cop thinks he needs an assault rifle or Barrett

we''ll just put it on your Discover card and not on the back of the taxpayers.

[2rth2pwr]

18. Two words- "Andrew Meyer" nt

[Man_in_the_Moon]

20. Better than Riotguns...

safer for everybody.

[Eric J in MN]

21. What do you mean by "Riotguns"? NT

NT

[Man_in_the_Moon]

23. Shotguns

12 gauge, usually pump-operated, usually 18-20 inch barrel, with a cylinder, or maybe improved cylinder, bore shotgun.

Much more dangerous to bystanders than a semi-auto carbine.

[BlooInBloo]

29. Because shoving nightsticks up black folks' asses and tazing pregnant women has gotten old.

[backscatter712]

32. If martial law is around the corner,

I'll want to be able to buy that AR-15 now, while we still can.

Gotta have something to make sure the blackshirts are burying their own as well as us.

[MadHound]

36. Sorry, but this line of reasoning is bullshit.

It is simply an excuse for police to beef up their armament, one that has no basis in reality. This is, supposedly, what SWAT teams are for, coming in with the big guns when they're needed. But it sounds like Miami wants to turn its entire force into a SWAT team, and are simply using the repeal of the assault weapons ban as an excuse to do so.

It would be interesting to see the stats showing whether or not the incidences of regular police being confronted with heavy weaponry has gone up or not. I think that this is just another over the top reaction by the police, one of their own gets killed, so now they are all going to up the ante.

Assault weapons are the wrong weapon for police, and I predict that there will be innocents killed in the crossfire. But hey, it does acclimate the public to the idea of their police morphing from public servants to para-military enforcers.

I'm a pro gun control person, but I have to call bullshit on this one. This is just an excuse for the Miami police to become even more authoritarian.

[benEzra]

37. SWAT generally uses automatic weapons, not non-automatic civilian guns.

I think they are merely considering replacing their shotguns with civilian carbines (like other departments have been doing for over a decade), not arming the average officer like SWAT. The chief is talking this up like it's a big deal, but he's just grandstanding...perhaps to distract attention from this.

Small-caliber carbines generally offer less risk to bystanders than shotguns, which is a major reason why departments have been shifting in that direction; the other is that for smaller statured officers, the recoil of a .729 caliber shotgun can be too much.

If you have access to Police Marksman, check out Dick Fairburn, "So, You're Ready for a Rifle?", Police Marksman, May/June 1997.

[billbuckhead]

58. The slippery slope, soon everyone will have to carry AK-47's like the 3rd world

It will sell lots of guns but the concept of freedom will be a joke. We'll all be free to kill or be killed and all because of the selfish masculinity challenged gun nuts who are too intellectually and morally challenged than to be anything more than a brownshirt for corporama and the reichwing.

[benEzra]

60. Except that police have been using autoloading civilian carbines for what, 60 years?

The slippery slope, soon everyone will have to carry AK-47's like the 3rd world

Except that police have been using autoloading civilian carbines for what, 60 years? And carbines in general since, oh, the 1880's or so.

AR-15's are the least powerful of all common centerfire rifles. They fire no faster than an ordinary pistol or .22 rifle. Police departments have been using them for years (they are increasingly viewed as a safer and more precise alternative to the traditional .729 caliber shotgun by departments). And like all civilian rifles, they're non-automatic.

The slippery slope to a police state isn't whether or not police rifles have handgrips that stick out; it's whether the police view their job as to protect and serve the law-abiding, or to "keep the 'civilians' in line."

If you want to find the slippery slope of which you speak, look at the militarization of SWAT (machineguns, explosives, APC's), the militarization of the War on Non-Approved Herbs, and the militaristic, "keep the 'civilians' in line" attitude of the Administration as it pertains to "Homeland Security."



I'd be a whole lot more worried about the erosion of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, the loosening of Posse Comitatus, and the equipping of police departments with APC's that I would about the ongoing replacement of patrol shotguns with civilian small-caliber rifles like the AR-15.

We'll all be free to kill or be killed and all because of the selfish masculinity challenged gun nuts who are too intellectually and morally challenged than to be anything more than a brownshirt for corporama and the reichwing.

You know, generally speaking, the more ad hominem fallacies you string together in one sentence, the less rational the sentence becomes.

AR-15's are the most popular civilian target and defensive rifles in America not because of some tinfoil hat conspiracy, but because they are supremely accurate, ergonomic, and don't kick much.


Competitive shooter using AR-15

[Retired AF Dem]

62. And they put them to good use

against the likes of Bonnie and Clyde along with a few full autos.

[slackmaster]

41. What a steaming pile of horse puckey

...Timoney blamed expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons 4 years ago for the escalation of firepower on Miami's streets.

All the expiration of the federal AWB did was allow the same weapons that were available during the ban to be equipped with features like bayonet lugs and folding stocks.

[billbuckhead]

49. I bet if you condescended to be a cop you'd have some gun out of robocop

It's wrong to expect cops to face military weapons without having military weapons of their own. The gun lobby wins by selling to cops and perps.

[slackmaster]

55. The "assault weapons" ban had nothing to do with military weapons

I think billbuckhead already knew that.

[billbuckhead]

56. The minions of the gun lobby say anything to keep their manhood enhancers

Just ask Ted Nugent

[derby378]

59. Oh, goody - yet another "gun = penis" argument

Why don't you come up with something original instead of resorting to stereotypes like the KKK and the Religious Right do?

[slackmaster]

61. The Astute Reader(TM) will note that billbuckhead does not dispute the truthfulness of my post

Because he can't.

[benEzra]

43. I wonder if Chief Timoney is trying to distract attention from this:

An advocate for tighter gun control laws, Timoney blamed expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons 4 years ago for the escalation of firepower on Miami's streets.

''This is really a failure of leadership at the national level. We are absolutely going in the wrong direction here,'' Timoney told the Miami Herald. 'The whole thing is a friggin' disgrace.''

I wonder if Chief Timoney is trying to distract attention from this:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-09-20/news/john-timoney-america-s-worst-cop

There are many reasons why John Timoney should be fired. He has trampled civil rights, from the 2003 Free Trade Area of the Americas protests to the soon-to-be-placed video cameras throughout downtown. He accepted a free Lexus SUV from a local auto dealer and then lied about it. And, according to the police union, he allowed subordinates to manipulate crime statistics to make it appear he's doing a good job.

There's also this: City cops hate him. On September 4, 520 of 650 police union members cast no-confidence votes against the chief.

All of that has been publicized. But until now, no one has talked about perhaps his greatest sin. He's the city's best-paid employee — with a compensation package worth more than $214,000 per year — but he's not around much. During four years and nine months in office, Timoney has been out of town for at least 138 days — not counting vacation. During his 30 jaunts to places like Belfast and Los Angeles, he has stayed in the Wilshire Grand and the Mandarin Oriental. Cost to taxpayers: more than $28,000.

[slackmaster]

44. Hammer, nail, head.

:toast:

[Truthiness Inspector]

52. Cops are expendible

Why should they have the gall to want to defend themselves and the public against those who want to kill everyone?

CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!

[originalpckelly]

57. We can be killed by our own government as surely as we can be killed by a murderous criminal.

And I'd bet that our government is far more capable of killing people than a common criminal, most criminals don't have F-16s and tanks.

[benEzra]

63. News flash -- Rifle crime went DOWN in 2006...

FBI Uniform Crime Reports came out today. Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon, debunks the idea floated a few months ago that the expiration of the 1994 Feinstein ban on rifle bayonet lugs and adjustable stocks in 2004 led to the murder rate increase in '06. Turns out that rifle crime is actually down slightly.

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%