Where the "fuck the police" mentality on DU comes from..

[The Vinyl Ripper]

Because the great majority of cops are authoritarians.

The drug war in particular has created a great deal of hostility to police.

America has the highest incarceration rate in the world and cops are continually pushing to make more stuff illegal and lock up more people..

On the State Patrol cars in my state they have a great big red circle with a line through it over a pot plant. Nothing against violence, just pot.

Everyone knows that pot is far less harmful than alcohol and yet the State Patrol and other police organizations strongly supports the drug war.

It's really that simple..

[Fovea]

1. It comes from the police

who are drunk on power and pissed off that they are not loved for it.

[ThomCat]

24. Absolutely!

That nails in in a nutshell.

[Jed Dilligan]

84. Exactly. nt

[Whisp]

131. too many are there to serve and protect corporations...

and get more free labor for corporate prison camps. It's a sweet deal they have.

[Red Zelda]

2. My problem with cops

comes from the fact that soooo many of them are as dumb as a fricking block of wood.

[LibDemAlways]

8. You'll get flamed for that, but based on the

ones I've come into contact with, I'd say you have a valid point.

[madokie]

10. my contention is that the majority of cops are people who shouldn't be near a badge

let alone be wearing one.

[Selatius]

21. I agree with that. I also agree that many of them are simply too ignorant to be good officers. n/t

[HughBeaumont]

22. For every one good police officer I've encountered, there were 5-6 bad ones.

Not very good odds, I'd say.

Being verbally harassed for no reason by police, THAT'S always fun.

[T Wolf]

3. And the personal experience of many of us who have been fighting since

the 60's and have had run-ins with them.

[Raster]

4. In the US incarceration is an industry.

[canadianbeaver]

78. Soon to be for profit prisons.......

read that on DU not too long ago...

sorry no link.

[Jed Dilligan]

85. Soon? Try already.

Who makes the bullets fired in Iraq? Prisoners, at 11 cents an hour.

[Romulox]

126. For profit prisons already exist

There was riot over the summer at the New Castle Correction Facility in New Castle, Indiana. The prison is run by the private for-profit Geo group.

[snappyturtle]

5. This is my feeling: While growing up I was taught the policeman is

my friend, you know watching out for us. But now, the policeman is looking out for himself...keeping everyone 'in line' so they are not endangered. imho

[Gormy Cuss]

48. Unfortunately there is truth in that observation.

It is a hard and dangerous job, but in an effort to keep themselves safer the training and procedures now seem to ignore the "serve and protect" mission in favor of the self-protection and intimidation mantra.

LE officers are safer when the general public views them as good guys and as members of the community. I don't know how to strike the proper balance but I do see that it's out of kilter and to the detriment of all.

[Mike Daniels]

6. The cops just enforce the laws they have to work with

If a cop arbitrarily decided to let someone he caught dealing drugs off a with warning the cop would be out of a job.

Don't like the laws, don't blame the cops. Blame the people sitting in the state or city government building.

[T Wolf]

11. Only if the payoff was too low. Selective enforcement is a major problem. nt

[The Vinyl Ripper]

12. Show me a police organization

That does not support the drug war.

I bet you can't do it..

[redqueen]

52. C'mon now... you're kidding right?

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

There are LOTS of people in law enforcement who support legalization / are against the drug war.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

61. Thanks, that was informative..

I stand corrected, there are unofficial police organizations against the drug war..

Now maybe you can show me an official organization, like a police union, that is so oriented..

[redqueen]

73. Surely official orgnizations

include far more members, whose opinions on the subject likely aren't in agreement.

So... I don't know how logical it is to expect an entire official organization to jump into this particular issue, or any other issue which goes against a law. In other words, I wouldn't think an official group would come down on one side of such a controversial issue.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

76. Aaah..but the official organizations do indeed come down on one side of this issue

And I'm sure that you know which side that is..

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/1797/forfeit.htm

To make matters worse, most state legislatures are tripping over themselves expanding state forfeiture powers and creating draconian procedures which mirror the federal laws. These forfeiture expansion bills are vigorously supported by massive police lobbying organizations, many of which contribute substantial sums to campaign coffers. " ( F.E.A.R.

[redqueen]

79. Well that's hardly surprising anyway...

considering that it's written law... it would be odd to see an official law enforcement group come out against it.

We just need to end the drug war... and there aren't many politicians with the courage to say it. That's why I support Kucinich. :)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

83. Dennis is da' man..

I agree completely with that..

[againes654]

20. Not all cops "play by the rules"

Some of us have had truly unfair and unlawful run ins with the cops. As in ANY AND EVERY profession (including our government) there is a certain level of corruption.

[Greyhound]

43. That is one of the biggest changes that has led us to this sorry state.

LEOs are no longer allowed to use their discretion. Our police forces have been militarized and an "us vs. them" mentality pervades.

Bad and excessive laws are a big part of it and always has been, the officer's discretion used to serve as a buffer in these cases.

Same thing with our Judges, minimum sentencing "guidelines" and the asinine "3 strikes" laws have only served to escalate the problem.

We have at least three threads here in GD today that all deal with the same underlying problem, the hard right, authoritarian, turn this country took about 30 years ago.

It will destroy us if we let it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

54. I have family in law enforcement...

They have far more discretion than you might think...

It's just who they choose to use it on..

[Greyhound]

62. Maybe in some cases, but as I said, in the places I've lived it has been taken from them.

They might choose to look the other way, but if they're caught they are fired.

[lips]

116. I'd hardly see the training (re: conditioning)...

...that is the main focus of many introductory police programs to give individual patrol people the unadulterated 'choice' as to what they may feel to be the best way to diffuse a volatile situation.

[Lone_Wolf]

77. Bingo...Yes the police have become more militarized!

It used to be that police would deal with a situation with the least amount of force necessary to force compliance. In other words, a peace officer's mentality.

Now, their mentality has shifted over into using an overwhelming amount of force from the get go which is a military tactic.

[Greyhound]

121. Personally, I blame Darryl Gates and the media that made him a star. n/t

[Generic Other]

136. an interesting observation about the new face of law enforcement

They dress like stormtroopers. They don't smile. They are very hostile looking. And I think they feed off their own propaganda treating every arrest like it was a dramatic recreation of a COPS episode.

One other issue. In general, police recruits tend to be "C" students. While some are very nice decent people who want to do a good job, and no doubt will, their thinking skills are not as strong as their "A" peers who will for the most part NOT become law enforcement officers. We need those bright ones, but we tend to get physically well developed candidates with less than stellar critical thinking skills.

We have too many warriors and not enough peacemakers. It's harder to e a peacemaker. Have to use your brain. Brute force does not require thought.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

148. This may come as a shock to you..

But I have heard of at least one case of an applicant being rejected because he was "too smart".

The case was made that smart people become bored with the monotony of the job and tend to quit fairly soon..

[DrunkenMaster]

46. ahh, the Nuremberg Defense!

The fascist's last gasp. Works every time.

[redqueen]

55. I think you may be mistaken.

I've heard more than a few people say they got warnings for arrestable offenses.

[mikelgb]

64. wtf

"If a cop arbitrarily decided to let someone he caught dealing drugs off a with warning the cop would be out of a job."

Seen it a dozen times. Cops are very selective with their enforcement.

[Romulox]

128. Cops make decisions about WHICH laws to enforce every day...

Cops actively decide to enforce some laws and not others every day.

[truebrit71]

7. Or from personal experience with the assholes...

...making up bullshit charges that eventually, and at great expense, get rolled back or dropped entirely...

[uppityperson]

9. for me it comes from the ones who I have met that are jerks combined with all their ability to do

whatever they want with me with oversight dependent upon factors beyond my control. I know more decent ones than bad ones, but a bad one can do much harm very fast and may get away with it. Nothing to do with drugs/alcohol.

[IndianaJones]

13. F**k the police. nt.

[iamthebandfanman]

14. i believe

if you did do away with the war on drugs thered be an easing of tension between average america and the police... because then why do they need to search your car ? why do they need to search your house?
lets face it, when an officer asks you "can i search your vehicle" while having you pulled over for a traffic violation hes looking for one thing and one thing only... drugs.


still tho, even with that taken away... as some people have said in their posts... some cops arent in the profession for the right reasons. they like the power and the rush. its like i heard one cop say, its hours of bordem with 5 minutes of excitement and that excitement can become addictive to some people who just arent cut out to have such an important job.

i really think the police should spend more money testing people mental backgrounds before giving them a badge and a gun.
at the same token, i think officers should be PAYED MORE. their job IS risky and they deserve to be compensated for that risk.
teachers, military personnel, and police/fire/rescue are some of the most under payed people in the country.
maybe one day we can correct this, and by doing so, get more qualified and better suited people to maintain these professions.

[YOY]

15. Does it come "straight from da underground"?

That's where I always heard it comes from.

[iamthebandfanman]

40. I always liked "Fight the power!" personally

:)

[Selatius]

16. The "fuck the police" phrase was borne out of the ghettos of the inner-city

It was borne out of racism and hatred. It was borne out of the fact that after MLK was gunned down, nothing of much significance came to the poor people of America, so people got so frustrated that that mentality was born, not simply because policemen were symbols of authority but because of real or perceived abuse and corrupt practices by police officers and the cavalier attitude on certain police forces against poor people who don't have money for fancy attorneys.

[L. Coyote]

17. I would not characterize DU so negatively. Do not confuse "DU" with

some posters.

The drug war was a Nixonian political enemies tactic and the right continues to use it. It harms the police in many ways, but it also fills their collective pockets. So, expect it to continue as long as it profits those involved. You have to wonder if Nixon knew it would self-perpetuate ad nauseum?

But, lots of DUers are defending the actions of the police, as they should.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

23. I was just repeating what someone else said on the other thread about police..

I responded on the thread but no one replied..

[Romulox]

130. Bill Clinton put more people in the Federal pen for drugs than Reagan and Poppy Bush combined...

Sorry, the DLCer have "triangulated" themselves right into the center of the drug war. If anything the Democratic Party is a stronger supporter on the War on (people who use) Drugs than the Repubs.

[Enrique]

18. cops are continually pusing to make more stuff illegal?

that assertion sounds absurd to me, but if you have evidence I'd be glad to look at it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

35. Ever heard of "job security"..

The more things are illegal, the more cops we need..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association

The California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA), founded in 1957 as the California Correctional Officers Association (CCOA), is the correction officers' labor union in California. The CCPOA is widely considered one of the most powerful political forces in California politics. CCPOA president Don Novey established the union's tradition of forming close alliances and friendships with political leaders during the 1980s.


The CCPOA has supported campaigns for tougher criminal sentences, including large contributions to the 1994 campaign for Proposition 184, the 'three strikes' ballot initiative, which puts repeat offenders behind bars for lengthy terms.

The CCPOA is deeply involved in a variety of political activities. Most spending is done through political action committees. Although its membership is relatively small, representing only about one tenth the membership of the California Teachers Association, CCPOA political activity routinely exceeds that of all other labor unions in California. The union spends heavily on influencing political campaigns, and on lobbying legislators and other government officials. CCPOA also hires public relations firms and political polling firms.

As calls for reform of the state's prison system escalated during 2006, putting pressure on current governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to take a more aggressive stance on reform, the union's seemingly friendly relationship with the governor has cooled.

[Enrique]

37. now try it with police officers

I'd like to see evidence that police officers, not correctional officers, are continually pusing to make more things illegal.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

41. Look again..

The California Correctional Peace Officers Association

Corrections officers *are* cops..

[Enrique]

49. so that's all you have?

you say that people hate cops because the cops are continually pushing for more things to be illegal, and your only evidence of this is a story about the California Correctional Peace Officers Association wanting longer prison sentences?

That might explain why DUers hate prison guards, but you said that we hate cops. I'm still open to any evidence you might have that cops are continually pushing for more things to be illegal.

In fact, I think it might be the opposite. In fact I vaguely remember a story about the Chicago cops union successfully killing some new city law that was seen as burdensome to the officers.

[tuckessee]

65. The cops where I live are always pushing for more laws & tougher sentencing.

I've never heard an active cop or cop organization ask for fewer laws.

The only time they whine about new laws is when they claim they don't have the funding to enforce a particular law. Give 'em the $$ & they're ready to roll.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

44. Here you go..

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/1797/forfeit.htm

"Asset forfeiture was virtually unheard of until 1984, when Congress overhauled the federal forfeiture laws to give the government incredible advantages over property owners, and began expanding the list of offenses which could trigger forfeiture. Now there are two hundred federal offenses which trigger forfeiture, But the most terrifying aspect of the legislative scheme in the 1984 crime bill was that it allows the seizing police agency to keep the proceeds of property they seize and forfeit. This inherent conflict of interest has lead to greater and greater abuses as the profits generated have risen -- to close to a billion dollars a year for the federal government alone.

To make matters worse, most state legislatures are tripping over themselves expanding state forfeiture powers and creating draconian procedures which mirror the federal laws. These forfeiture expansion bills are vigorously supported by massive police lobbying organizations, many of which contribute substantial sums to campaign coffers. " ( F.E.A.R.

[Enrique]

59. does that have anything to do with cops?

do people hate the troops because of the corrupt dealings in the defense industry?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

63. Umm... I even highlighted it..

These forfeiture expansion bills are vigorously supported by massive POLICE lobbying organizations, many of which contribute substantial sums to campaign coffers. "

[Enrique]

71. again, what does this have to do with hating the cops?

do we hate the doctors because of the political activities of the AMA? Do we even associate doctors with those politics?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

81. It depends...

Is the AMA lobbying to put more people in cages?

Or to take more people's property without benefit of a trial?

On edit:

You asked for proof and I showed it to you..

And now you move the goalpost.

Pretty much what I would expect from a Hillary supporter.

You wanna force me to buy health insurance?

Hillary does.. And I can give you the quote if you like.

[Enrique]

88. fair enough

you have given me evidence as I asked for. Thanks for indulging me. :thumbsup:

[The Vinyl Ripper]

92. And thank you for not taking what I said personally...

I apologize, my aside was uncalled for..

[Greyhound]

51. CA correctional officers are County Sheriffs. If you want to be a county cop,

you have to do a couple years as a jail guard.

[TomInTib]

19. It is still a Thin Blue Line.

The cops are the Fine Line between what we have today and total anarchy.

Don't complain unless you have a viable alternative.

And I am speaking as one who has been arrested numerous times and done my share of hard time.

But I have also gotten to know some cops who are really fine people.

[Bonobo]

27. Yeah, no complaining!

[american_typeculture]

31. Total anarchy?

That's a laugh. I've lived in many places where there was nary a police presence. Guess what ends up happening? The people police themselves. The guy who lives down the street who is "touching" the 12 year old girl? He gets shunned from the community, nothing violent, the citizens just let him know that it would be better if he wasn't around that community anymore. And the guy leaves.

[TomInTib]

57. Try that in Oakland.

Or inner Philly.

Or Bed-Stuy.

You would last maybe a day.

[american_typeculture]

82. From Oakland to Tiburon.

That is quite a leap, Scarlett. Did you grow up in the inner city?

Congrats.




As god as my witness I will never go hungry again!

[Throd]

86. Tom is correct

I know this from ten years in Long Beach (PCH & Santa Fe)

The child toucher would end up in an alley with a bullet in his skull the first night. As bad as cops can be, I'd rather have them keeping order than the West Side Longos.

[TomInTib]

94. You know where...

I grew up?

Dirt poor on a Texas ranch.

I never attended one day of school, because we were too poor to drive to town every day.

And then I went to Vietnam for 39 months.

From there, I went back to Texas, only to have the pleasure of spending another 28 months in Huntsville as a guest of the Texas Department of Corrections.

My life may be just peachy now, but it hasn't always been that way.

Tom

[Greyhound]

58. That was a stupid movie and a badly written book. All part of the "fear everything" campaign.

The idea that society would break down to chaos in the streets without a militarized gang of thugs to "keep everyone in line" is just BS.

Let me ask you this, without a police force would you run down and loot the local shop?

Neither would anyone else, and the few miscreants that might are dealt with quickly by the community. Just like in the real old west.

[Throd]

87. Or you could have Mogadishu

[Greyhound]

112. Or we could have Bora-Bora before it was "discovered"...

you had a point?

[Throd]

122. Absolutely

After living and working for ten years in a high crime neighborhood I'm a little dubious about how peaceful the place would have been without police. The vacuum created by the absence of police would have been filled by the numerous gangs that inhabit the area. Maybe where you live it would be different, but at PCH & Santa Fe in Long Beach, that is the sad reality.

[Greyhound]

125. I know the area and you're right, but according to a friend of mine that grew

up in Signal Hill a long time ago it was not always so. So we have to ask, are high crime areas high crime areas because the people that live there are criminals at heart, or do they deteriorate into such through deprivation and repression?

I'm with Thom Hartmann on this one, the difference between a conservative and a liberal is that the liberal believes people are generally good and conservatives believe they are bad.

[Throd]

134. I think that most people are inherently good

The problem is the small percentage of bad ones wield disproportionate influence. It only takes a few hyperviolent sociopaths to cow the rest of the populace into silence and submission.

I guess my same assessment applies to the cops. Most are inherently good, the bad ones wield disproportionate influence.

[TomInTib]

114. No, i wouldn't loot a local shop.

I have a local gallery and I would probably be recognized. This is a small Town, after all.

But I probably would consider going to Mill Valley and robbing a bank, for I am no stranger to crime.

[Greyhound]

124. That's very interesting. To what end would you rob a bank?

They've become quite adept at limiting their losses.

What if there was resistance?

[TomInTib]

129. Only out of desparation.

But if things were getting out of hand, I would stop at nothing to provide for me and mine.

That has been a life-long tenet of mine.

And resistance be damned, because we are discussing a situation without enforceable laws.

[valerief]

25. Fear of Blackwater fighting us here instead of over there. nt

[Cetacea]

26. Time was when long hair got you pulled over.

I am not sure if it's gotten worse or has stayed equally outrageous. I agree that the so-called drug wars have much to do with it.

[ThomCat]

28. Most of the cops I've met should probably be in prison

instead of wearing a badge.

They seem to think the badge gives them permission to be hostile, arbitrary, vicious pricks. They think that civil rights only exist if they say so.

It should be possible to get violent and abusive cops kicked off the force and put in jail. Instead, we have the big blue wall that protects all of them and continues to allow more and more abuse.

[valerief]

34. I've only had one scary cop scream in my face. It was because I

went through a red light. However, I was behind a huge truck going uphill and I couldn't see the light change from green to yellow to red. It was green when I got behind the truck, and the truck was letting oncoming traffic make turns.

I gotta say, that cop really scared me, and I'm a very vanilla old broad. I'd hate to "look wrong" to some cops and have that kind of harassment all the time.

[DaveJ]

29. Most I've encountered have been respectful

I know what you're saying about drug laws causing this animosity. But it should not cloud one's judgment when faced with a particular situation.

[Clark2008]

30. Funny - I think it should come from the laws we allow to be passed

that the police MUST enforce, less they get fired.

I realize there are a certain amount of cops who are authoritarians, but the problem is with the authoritarian laws we, as citizens, allow Congress and our local governing bodies to pass without so much as a blink.

Cops are only conduits between law makers and law "breakers." They may be responsible for some of the force they execute, but they're NOT responsible for the idiotic law they are required to enforce.

[Enrique]

33. well, then it would be seen as OUR responsibility

it's much easier to blame the cops.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

36. Police routinely lobby for tougher laws and sentencing..

And politicians listen to them..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. Drug laws we allow to get passed?

In 35 years of watching the ballots, I have yet to see ANY drug laws to vote on.

We have NEVER been allowed a say in the drug wars.

The authoritarians, including most police organizations, OTOH lobby vigorously for anti-drug bills. Police organizations prioritize their tasks, and spend an inordinate amount of time and resources tracking down pot dealers instead of professional thieves, because stoners are easier to catch and catching them is more rewarding financially, with the confiscation laws.

If there was a national referendum today I would bet that pot would be decriminalized, but they will NEVER allow it to come to a vote.

We haven't ALLOWED shit.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

93. Excellent point...

Thank you..

[no_hypocrisy]

32. I can't decide whether it's the police collectively or as individuals,

or the criminal justice system (I know, I know, it's either redundant or an oxymoron) that bothers me, or all of the above. I've been a defendant and a defense attorney, and work within the system. My thoughts are there will always be abuse in different degrees, and all you can realistically expect is to curb it by holding individual cops in account of their actions.

[ThomCat]

38. But if the only focus in on holding individual cops responsible

you never address the collective responsibility. The insulated culture of "us vs them" and the atmosphere that creates abusers and abuse.

Individual cops need to be held responsible, but departments as a whole need to be held responsible too, and the people up the chain of command.

[alfredo]

39. Some of that attitude comes from the 60's, the anti war movement

and the civil rights movement. There were some harsh tactics used against us back then.

I'm willing to give police the benefit of the doubt even though I was raised in Shively Ky, a town known for corrupt police.

[riqster]

42. All activists know

...that the pigs are against us. We are agents of change, and they are in bed with the status quo.


They are not our friends, since they work for our enemies.

[LanternWaste]

45. You then believe...

You then believe there should be no law enforcement in this country?

[DrunkenMaster]

47. little "reducto ad absurdum" anyone?

Nice try, Bunky.

[LanternWaste]

68. Then you believe we should let the "enemy" control law enforcement?

Then you believe we should let the "enemy" control law enforcement? I don't see a compromise between the two... but if there is, why not share with the rest of the class?

It's not a try, chief.. it's a question.

[DrunkenMaster]

74. another f**king straw man

I never said ANYTHING of the sort. Stop putting words in people's mouths...again, I'm not suprised.

[LanternWaste]

75. Questions are putting words in people's mouths?

Questions are putting words in people's mouths? I'm.... impressed.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

50. Got a match?

Your strawman would make a great bonfire..

What we want is humane and responsible enforcement of rational and reasonable laws.

That is nowhere near what we have today.

[LanternWaste]

72. You really ought to look up the Democratic National Convention of '68.

You really ought to look up the Democratic National Convention of '68. That was oppression-- find another reason to get your righteous rage, fix.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

98. I watched it on TV..

What do you have to say to the fact that the "land of the free" has the highest incarceration rate on the planet?

Nothing I'll bet..



There's blood in the streets/

It's up to my ankles/

There's blood in the streets/

It's up to my knees/

There's blood in the streets/

In the town of Chicago/

The Doors..

[Heidi]

89. What evidence do you have that Andrew Meyer is an activist?

Outside of the confrontation of the Kerry forum, please link to any evidence that he's an activist for _anything_ besides advancing his own name recognition. And while you're doing that research, please bear in mind that his email address is [e-mail] and the name of his web domain is www.THEAndrewMeyer.com

If he's such an activist, why are his history, his email address and his webdomain name "all about Andrew"?

[riqster]

95. Just because the pigs hate activists

...doesn't mean that every person they abuse is an activist.

Pigs also abuse minorities, the mentally ill, or people who don't act submissive enough, to name a few other groups.

[Heidi]

97. Do you think Andrew Meyer is a minority, mentally ill or didn't "act submissive enough"?

It looked to many of us as thought he baited the cops and they stupidly fell for it. If you've read any of my other posts over the past two days, you'd know that I've condemned his Tasering and questioned the need for his arrest. Like a wound-up child, he probably would have worn himself out, given another few minutes.

You failed to address the matters of his history, his email address and his domain name.

[riqster]

118. Believe it or not, I don't read every post on DU before posting

...whether by yourself or anyone else, especially if they are only tangentially related to the thread at hand. My statements here are directed towards this topic, which is "why do so many people here say 'fuck the police'?"


What I can tell you is this: as an activist, and a formerly homeless individual, I have been treated abusively by the pigs. I have seen others so treated. That is why I say 'Fuck The Pigs".

[riqster]

119. Double post

[PDenton]

56. I'm glad there are police

There is enough crime out there as it is.

Count me as a law-and-order Democrat any day. Police are not payed to be sensitive and be judges and psychotherapists. They are payed to enforce laws.

[tuckessee]

60. So do you agree with the Drug War? n/t

[PDenton]

91. Not all of it, but on the whole...

... yes. I do think they should be getting more people into treatment than jail, but higher level dealers should definitely be in jail.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

103. Should alcohol dealers be in jail?

Alcohol is a more dangerous and destructive drug than most illegal drugs.

[DrunkenMaster]

69. Jeebus H Christ -- is that the deepest thought

of which you are capable? "I'm scared of crime so I like cops"???
Pathetic.

[Zodiak]

100. Most people think that way

Spoon-feed them enough true crime stories and they are willing to go along with quite a bit for a little added security.

We are a fear-driven society, after all.....and we are taught to always give the benefit of the doubt to authority figures.

[wtmusic]

70. agree

Plenty of cops selectively enforce drug laws, i.e. let most offenders off the hook.

It's a dangerous, difficult job, and for every authoritarian idiot there are ten more working their asses off to help people.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

109. Yep,

But they confiscate the drugs for their own use or for sale..

[redqueen]

80. Welcome to DU.

Enjoy your stay. :hi:

[Heidi]

102. Cops also are subject to "law-and-order." Just so you know.

What are your thoughts on the prison industrial complex, by the way?

[gatorboy]

132. You said it! Damn liberal judges!

And that global warming! Who could believe such tripe!

[treestar]

139. They are paid to enforce the laws within the limits of the federal

and state Constitution, as employees of the state, which is We the People. Therefore, they should be basically respectful of all they encounter at first blush. In fact, since they have the guns and the cuffs, they need never bother with attitude of any kind. Just follow the law and do the job. I think what we are bothered by here are those who think it's more than that, and that their position gives them some sort of superior power over the citizenry.

[RangerRK]

66. We have a right to protest!

and this is how our citizens are treated for standing up to the Government and the Corporations

[Heidi]

67. At the risk of being flamed, it's also that many of us "feel" more "leftist" if we associate

ourselves with anyone with a beef against law enforcement. I see law enforcement as a necessary evil that _always_ should be kept in check. I equate the prison industrial complex with the military industrial complex as outlined by Eisenhower, and am no fan of either, but I do know that there are many progressives who believe that aligning themselves with anyone on the other side of the law makes them somehow more left.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

90. Please show me anyone here defending

Child rapists,

Murderers.

Or any other truly serious lawbreakers..

[Heidi]

96. Way to twist my words. No further reply merited. (nt)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

105. I didn't twist your words at all...

Here is what you said:

I do know that there are many progressives who believe that aligning themselves with anyone on the other side of the law makes them somehow more left.

"Anyone" includes murderers and child rapists...

[Heidi]

106. It also includes writers of bad checks, trespassers and petty loudmouths posing as activists. (nt)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

108. You said I twisted your words..

And I showed you I did not..

You made a foolish statement and I called you on it.

[Heidi]

110. Congratulations.

Feel more leftist than me now? :hi:

[The Vinyl Ripper]

113. Less authoritarian

:hippie: :hi:

[Heidi]

115. Nice sparring with you, The Vinyl Ripper.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

117. Same here...

Take care..

[RangerRK]

99. American citizens are being assaulted by the police for speaking out

We have tax dollars paying for Corporate armies like Blackwater.

These people were attacked for protesting the FTAA.

I think this is not about being "more left", it is about fighting for freedom while we still can.

[Heidi]

101. If you're willing to fight for Andrew Meyer's freedom, when he was all about Andrew Meyer,

rather than any core value, knock yourself out. Meyer has created a platform that many articulate political agitators would love to have; I'm interested in seeing whether he use the next 72 hours to advance anything other than his own name recognition.

Aren't you interested in the same thing?

[treestar]

141. If he doesn't have his, you won't have yours

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

107. Why the insult?

And yes, cops are authoritarians, it comes with the job.

Doing what you are told and telling others what to do is the very definition of "authoritarian".

What do you have to say about the fact that "the land of the free" has the highest incarceration rate on the planet?

Nothing, I'll bet.

[riqster]

120. Remove the blinkers

Try limping every day for 20+ years, and looking forward to maybe 30 more because of some asshole with a nightstick. That ain't hyperbole, it's my life.

[warren pease]

146. You've been fortunate...

If you grew up poor or non-white in a major city, you learned very quickly that the policeman wasn't your friend. In fact, he had a license to kill, so you did whatever you could to keep a good distance between you and him. And maybe you did, for all I know, but just had a very different set of experiences.

When you consider what a cop's real job is, their attitude and "work habits" aren't at all surprising. They're the hired guns of the ruling class whose primary function is to protect the lives and property of the rich from those who would practice a little unofficial wealth redistribution in the form of burglary, B&E, theft, robbery, assault and other illegal means to relieve the wealthy of a little of what they stole to get that goddamned rich in the first place.

I can categorically state that cops have never done a damn thing for me except arrest me on minor charges a few times, perform (illegal) cavity searches, pistol-whip me, smash me with a riot stick a few times, throw me down a flight of stairs with my hands cuffed behind me, plant evidence when they couldn't find anything useful on me or in my car, and threaten my life and those of my friends so frequently that it became one of the comedic highlights of the week.

Lesser offenses included towing my car for no reason, handing out tickets for serious crimes like plowing through a stop sign at half a mile an hour, letting the air out of two of my tires when he couldn't arrest me on warrants (because I didn't have any, though he checked for about 45 minutes), and generally act as masters of the universe who demand a level of respect that they're a long way from actually earning.

I must add that I'm always extremely polite and cooperative whenever I'm in a cop's sights. He's licensed to kill me, after all, and I don't take that lightly. Also, all the incidents above took place in the late '60s through late '70s, a time during which I looked pretty unconventional and drove pieces of shit. I realize this sets one up for a level of harassment beyond the norm, but I suggest pistol-whipping, planting evidence (and thank gawd for the Fourth Amendment, RIP) and tossing me down the stairs while cuffed is a little over the top given, as I say, I'm always cooperative and polite -- often to the point where I can barely keep a straight face.

Amazing how all this ended when I cut my hair, made some money, bought a decent car and acquired an image of somebody who at least looked like I might possibly know somebody in the group of elites that it's their job to protect. A suit and tie, a car without dents or cracked windows, a shave, a corporate job and haircut to go with it -- you too can transform yourself from object of suspicion, harassment and good old police brutality into a respectable member of the community whom the cops call "sir" every now and then.

Stupid fucks; I'm still the very same anarcho-socialist I've always been. Just changed skins to "pass."

Anyway, long story even longer: I don't trust them or their motives; I don't like their cop culture; I don't like their propensity to use violence as a first resort; I don't like the fact that they kill thousands of people across the country every year and most of them face nothing harsher than three-months administrative leave on full salary.

If this is what they call serving and protecting, I'll handle the job myself, thank you. Just keep writing tickets and I'll be a lot safer than I am around armed and power-mad cops who believe the shit they see on TV about themselves, then go to work and act out.

wp

[Generic Other]

149. anarcho-socialist wearing the tie off a dead clown!

good camoflauge! I love your post!

[warren pease]

151. Yeah, that's the option available to white people...

If I were black or brown, however, I could spend a fortune at the Armani store every month and I'd still be among the first to be messed with, harassed, beaten, arrested, put in a choke hold, and maybe get to experience the old "died while in custody" melodrama.

Portland cops shoot an inordinate number of people. Since 2000, they've killed 23 people (21 by gunshot -- three of those listed as "suicides" -- and two by Taser). They've shot and wounded another 17 and shot at and missed seven more. And this isn't a very big city. Nor is the violent crime rate particularly noteworthy for a US city (although it would probably be classified as a war zone anywhere in the actual civilized world).

This gives us a grand total of 47 people killed by cops in Portland this century. Source here:

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/listofshootings.html

Need I say a fairly high percentage of these were non-white, crazy (literally), acting "unusual" or just giving them shit?

There's a great post elsewhere on GD discussing cops, personality traits and the fact that certain people naturally select for lives as cops or in other enforcement roles. They all seem to share an aversion to non-conventional appearance or behavior (or both). If you haven't seen that thread, have a look. It's quite interesting and, if found valid in controlled studies, explains much about "the cop thing."

Anyway, glad you liked my post. Needless to say, those years were kind of rough on my body and I've got a couple of breaks that didn't quite set right (health care being unavailable then, as now, to the poor and marginalized) and a few scars to remind me. Overall, I wouldn't have missed a minute of it. I'm proud to have opposed "the man" back when looking funny was a criminal offense.

These days, looking brown is a criminal offense and, thanks to BushCo's fascist Constitutional work-arounds and an enabling or complicit Congress, the cops can break into your house, search the whole place, arrest you, arrest your family for aiding and abetting, ship you to some unspecified hell-hole, hold you indefinitely without charges, deny you the right to seek bail, deny you access to an attorney, torture you physically and mentally and, if the guards decide messing with you isn't fun anymore, simply kill you and toss your body into a pit with the rest of the mouldering corpses they've managed to create in the name of fighting terrorism.

That's why, after about 38 years as an adult and never even touching a gun other than a .22 target pistol, I'm about to exercise my Second Amendment rights and become an armed and dangerous lefty -- a shotgun, I think, for maximum damage at close range.

Yo... any gun nuts on this thread. What's a good make and model? What, if any, modifications make sense (like cutting down the barrel to the legal limit)? What's the best gauge for my purposes (strictly self-defense)? What's a good load for the purpose? Anything else I'm too stupid to know I should have asked?

And what's the right tone to use when saying, "You'll never take me alive, copper." Should you yell, whisper, speak in a normal voice? So much to learn about this stuff.


wp

[warren pease]

153. Addendum to previous post..

The thread I spoke of on cops targeting deviations: skin color, the poor, people wearing unusual clothes and so on:

http://tinyurl.com/2ho54a


Interesting read,

wp

[Cha]

111. And now they have a good ol'

prison for profit in the panhandle of Florida.

I don't say "fuck the police" but taser? How would they have handled it before taser? Old fashion hand cuffs?

[Solon]

123. Its more than just the drug war, though that is a big part of it...

if you're black or Latino, then most likely you are going to have a bad run in with the police that will probably involve you getting beaten up. If you are involved in any type of massive demonstration for any "Leftist" causes, the chances of you getting your ass beaten goes up exponentially. If you are young, you are more likely to get pulled over, even if you did nothing wrong, same for if you are again, black or Latino, especially in the "wrong" neighborhoods. This is especially true when cops are congregated as a group, just like any other group of "toughs" they should be treated with caution, and to be avoided at all costs.

[blitzen]

127. I don't say "Fuck the police"...I say "Fuck our Police State"

the police are just regular joes and janes doing their jobs....Sure, a lot of them are people that a lot of us would consider assholes, but the same can be said about the practitioners of any trade. The problem is not the police--it's our fascist ideology. Just look at our TV shows: innumerable CSIs, etc. Nowadays the cops are always the heroes, always right. The "security" of police officers trumps all other civil rights. Ironically, today's real cops are relatively wimpy: they rely on an overkill of excessive force, SWAT technology, tasers, etc.

[treestar]

133. It is a job that is going to appeal to the bossy

But not every cop is that way.

It also comes from the mentality that they think they are protecting us sheep and therefore have the right to boss us around. They feel besieged, no doubt, by the chaos on the streets.

Around here, to get a job as a cop, you have to have a college degree, so many want to go into it. So you're getting a trainable group of people who don't always resort to old fashioned bullying techniques.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Actually it is not that simple

but oh never mind.

By the way, the war on drugs... which IS A FAILURE... is not something they support or not. It is something they are charged with enforcing

Having worked side by side with many a cop... some of it on the actual front lines of that abortion called the war on drugs, I will tell you something that might surprise you.

Most cops I know... yep COPS, would love for this abortion to go away, for the same reasons that prohibition was all but popular (in private) among many police officers.

Charged with enforcing the laws... that is the key

If you change the laws where everybody is able to do coke, and pot and we just charge a sin tax (like we do for two out of the three legal drugs in circulation) and keep minors out of it, they will be happy to enforce that too.

So no, it is not that simple

Are some cops ass holes? Yes

Are assholes in every field of life? Want me to regale with some tales from OTHER fields?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

138. If what you say is true..

Then why is it that every official police organization of which I'm aware is in favor of the drug war?

Indeed, they spend a great deal of time, effort an money lobbying for even more draconian drug laws.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. Read the laws

your answer is in there

Just as the period of prohibition, police chiefs were in favor of it, but not the troops

Read the laws

Instead of funding your local department through taxes, we fund them through confiscation of goods from the offenders... yep the car that they took away from the dope user, and are now selling at auction, yep that one!

Once you start funding your local police with service fees, otherwise known as taxes, police chiefs will have a turn of heart.

For example, our local sheriff department, they tried to get a badly needed chopper used for police, and rescue in the backlands, through taxes. Local voters REFUSED to vote the funds in... after all taxes are bad, haven't you heard? Well they got their chopper, from moneys granted to them from confiscation of goods, through drug raids.

That is YOUR answer to that part.

The more draconian laws usually include a higher percentage of the pie from sales of confiscated goods... to your local departments that cannot get funding for badly needed things such as communications equipment or even a brake or tranie job for their police cars.

So your other thing to change is not only changing the drug laws, but also HOW you finance your local cops...

By the way, most money from most tickets DO NOT go to the police department, contrary to popular myth, but to the general fund... but drug confiscations will end up in police budgets sooner or later. So if you want to change some of that too, you can change laws where my traffic ticket will go to the Police, at least partially.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

152. I know all too much about civil forfeiture..

I was trying to keep from putting too much in the OP and making it confusing.

But you have a good point and thanks for your contribution to the conversation..

One huge difference between alcohol Prohibition and the drug war.

Just about all cops drink, they even have cop bars.

On the other hand, the great majority of cops think of people who use drugs other than alcohol or tobacco as dirty fucking hippies..

That makes for a very different attitude toward drugs other than alcohol and tobacco on the part of cops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. Again watch them broad brushes

Cops don't like those high on things like oh LSD, since they pose a risk to them and others

(and having dealt with one as a patient I understand that)

Most happy dopies are a pleasure to deal with

But they hate to deal with drunks, especially rude violent drunks

So did I as a medic...

I don't drink, but many of my partners did, and lord we hated to pick up the violent drunks... between the smell and the violence

Now the happy drunks, nobody had that much of an issue

But it really domes down to forfeiture laws

[Cronopio]

140. But if the assholes in the software industry were given guns and a license to kill ...

... I guarantee you they would be even bigger assholes, and fewer people would call them on it.

Yes, there are assholes in every field, but police assholes are a special breed of fuck.

The outrage *should* be worse for people given a crucial public trust (to protect the lawabiding public) and betray it by abusing the lawabiders to provide cover for the guilty. Or just to prove their power to themselves. No lawabiding person wants to have to take on the police to protect their own rights, but increasingly the assholes in the police force are putting them in the position of having to do so.

When the police system rethinks their own Code Of Blue At All Costs mentality and comes down hard on the police who abuse the civil rights of lawabiding citizens, then all police will have far less animosity to deal with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. That is why when a cop is convicted

of anything, judges tend to throw the book with an attached brick at them

But I am sure you knew that

[Cronopio]

147. When I see that happening more often, I'll believe it.

That's a mighty big IF in your statement "... if a cop is convicted ...".

Either the rule of law applies to everyone, or it ceases to apply to anyone and society lives down the alternative, whether people like it or not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. Well, I could point to a recent example here in San Diego

county, the case is moving through the system right now, but the cop was indicted of rape and a couple other beauts, and he was not given bail

And the Chipie who killed a young woman was given life. First offense, not fifteen to life, but life

Those are two examples just from the top of my head

[riqster]

142. These assholes are given deadly weapons

...BIG difference from, say a check-in clerk at the British Airways counter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. There are ways to assasinate a person's character

that is just as damaging.

I'm not talking of your counter person ok.

[BlooInBloo]

137. There are 2 general ways for a cop to be dirty...

(a) committing a crime, or
(b) knowing, but not coming forward and reporting another cop who committed a crime.

I think the bulk of cops fit at least one of these two descriptions - hence I say "fucking cops".


EDIT: "and" -> "or". Stupid logic.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

150. Can you say "Abner Louima" ? n/t

[mdmc]

156. fuck the police

except when they are looking for the jerks that mugged me.

Legalize!