"Iran Weapons in Iraq" LIE - Shells Stamped w/ ENGLISH

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

Email this to your congressman.
Ask him why Iranian shells would be stamped with English words.
(If you don't know who that is, go to www.congress.org )

Pentagon blames Iran for 170 US deaths
By David Blair, Diplomatic Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:32am GMT 12/02/2007

America today blamed Iran for the deaths of 170 US troops inside Iraq,
accusing Teheran of supplying insurgents with increasingly sophisticated bombs.
http://tinyurl.com/2t7d5g

[originalpckelly]

1. I know...

I asked about that earlier. And if these were from Iran, why in the world would they put markings on them, if this is a covert action?

Though, I do not know if they use it on their weapons, the Iranians have their own calendar, it's also used in Afghanistan. 2006 wouldn't be 2006, in other words.

[aquart]

2. Anyone sent this to Olbermann?

And the Daily Show?

[happyslug]

8. Most of the world uses the Gregorian,

Now from what I have read, Iran since 1925 has used its own solar calendar based on an Ancient Persian Calendar (It replaced the Islamic Lunar Calendar used from roughly the time of the Conquest of Iran by the Arabs till 1925).

While Iran uses its own Calendar, many people in Iran uses the Gregorian Calendar since it is the "Standard" Calendar used throughout the World. I suspect most Calendar actually used in Iran have both dates (See http://alavi.us/jcal/ for an example of what I mean, the Iranian Dates are in Large Types, but the Gregorian Dates on in small print for the same date, many calendar would also have the Islamic date and month on them).

Thus while the official calendar may be the Iranian Calendar, for most production use given that most of the machinery is from the west probably use Gregorian dates. Even in the West Such double dating was once Common. For years Calendars and Almanacs would contain both the Gregorian Dates, the Julian Dates and even the "AUC" Dates ("AUC" is an Abbreviation for the Latin Term "Since the Founding of the City" i.e Founding of Rome in 753 BC, The Old Farmers Almanacs still gives the AUC date, but more of a Tradition then for any real need). In the 20th Century the tendency is to just use the Gregorian Dates (The last hold out for the older Julian Calendar was Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia adopted the Gregorian Calendar after the Revolution). My point is when other Calendars dates were common to run across even in the West double dating was common. In the few places where the Gregorian Calendar is NOT used, such double dating is common just to be able to determine the dates used in the rest of the World (Which uses the Gregorian Calendar). I fully suspect Iran to do the same and even use Gregorian Dates in factories that were built for Iran in Iran by any country from the West or the Soviet Union (Russian has built a lot of Factories in Iran since the Islamic Revolution and even more since the Collapse of the Soviet Union). Thus the use of English does NOT mean these Shells were NOT made by Iran.

Anyway, these are 81mm Mortars, Iran used such 81mm before the Overthrow of the Shah in 1979, and had the ability to make such Mortar bombs at that time. Iraq main source of arms under Saddam was the old Soviet Union which used an 82mm Mortar (Which could use Western 81mm Rounds, but Western 81mm Mortars could NOT used Soviet 82mm Rounds). The old Soviet Union did NOT use a 60mm Mortar (Which tends to be a US and British Rounds, the Germans gave up on Mortars smaller than 81mm after the Invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, during WWII the Germans thought the only Army that knew how to use Mortars were the Soviets, and the Germans adopted the Soviet tactics and 82mm Mortar).

Thus it is possible for these rounds to be Iranian produced, the dating does NOT mean the round could NOT be Iranian Produced even if Gregorian dated. On the other hand, why would Iraqis use US type Mortars rounds when the Iraqis had used Soviet Mortars in the past? While the 81mm Mortar could be used in Iraqi 82mm Mortars. I have seen pictures of 60mm Mortars and Bombs being used in Iraq, where the Iraqi received such weapons is a good question for the 60mm was a type of Mortar NOT used by the Soviet Union and Iraq.

[Solon]

17. A bigger problem with the "HE" designation...

If these were Iran produced weapons, why would they have Roman letters on them at all? They would be in Persian, or, possibly, Arabic or Cyrillic.

Even if Iran decided to "fake" it and put English letters on the arms to throw off investigators, wouldn't it have been easier to just leave them unmarked?

Most likely these are captured U.S. arms that the Iraqis found and decided to use, we did have a few munitions stockpiles that were stolen, after all.

[ShortnFiery]

24. "we did have a few munitions stockpiles"

Iraq had several veritable "treasure troves" of Ammunition Storage Facilities :wow: but Rummy didn't see a need to secure them during the initial wave of the invasion. Of course, we all know that it was "the oil" and all surrounding that industry that was the top priority. :eyes:

Those sites were looted for weeks/months before there were ample troop levels to go about securing them from looters.

If you want to get to the core of what's killing a large number of our troops, it was Rummy's failure to secure these Munitions Sites during the first few weeks of the invasion. :(

[myrna minx]

31. KSTP of the of the Twin Cities

broke that story.

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/s3748.shtml

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=206847

[ShortnFiery]

22. In other words, it's made in the USA. And the "intelligence" is manufactured.

The Iranians are NOT the savage backward people portrayed by the Pentagon. If these weapons were, in fact, manufactured in Iran, the Persians would use their OWN STAMPS that would DEFINITELY not equate to USA type markings.

[originalpckelly]

29. The truth here is that we all have no clue. Until this is analyzed by independent...

arms experts, no one will know if this was made in Iran. Hell, it could be just an American weapon. No one knows, and these people are the absolute opposite of credible.

[happyslug]

45. Given that the Russia has become Iran's source of Arms since 1979

And Russia does NOT have a 60mm Mortar and uses a 82mm Mortar, my guess this is produced someplace other than a country whose weapons are Russian based (i.e. the US, the UK or one of several other countries that can produce these rounds, which is almost any non former Warsaw Pact Nation).

[HysteryDiagnosis]

44. From what I've seen of Iraqi ingenuity, I'm surprised they didn't take

a file to the 82's and stuff 'em through.

[happyslug]

46. the Difference between 81 and 82mm is less than the error difference

Basically while I have been told the 82 can NOT fit in an 81, given the loose tolerances in Mortar tubes I would NOT be surprised if you are careful it is interchangeable both ways (Through you lose accuracy if you use an 82 in a 81 or an 82 in an 81). 1 mm is less then the size of the Letter I and these are all SMOOTH BORE TUBES (The accuracy is produced by the tail fins on the Mortar rounds, thus such rounds are properly called "Bombs" since they have fins).

Please note it is possible that the 82mm is in reality an 81. In the former Soviet Union all rounds with the same caliber had to be interchangeable. Thus a 122mm Tank Tube uses the same base shell as an 122 Howitzer. That is NOT the test in the West, for example the 105mm Tank Gun of the old M-60 tank was NOT usable in the 105 mm M101A1 howitzer (and BOTH rounds are NOT interchangeable with the British 105mm Round used in the British 105mm Howitzer, through the same British Howitzer as adopted by the US uses such 105mm American M101 Rounds but not the British 105 Howitzer Round or Tank Cannon Round).

Confused? That is why the Old Soviet Army adopted the rule that all same Caliber Weapons be interchangeable. This lead to another problem, a tendency to give different measurements, for example the 125mm Russian Tank Gun may be the same Caliber as the American 120mm, but given 125mm designation to differentiate it from 120mm Mortar rounds and 122mm Howitzer Rounds (and any older 120mm Rounds the Soviet may have used in the Past, like the British 120mm Round used in their Tanks, which is NOT interchangeable with American, French or German 120mm Tank Rounds).

This rule to keep all similar caliber weapons interchangeable may be why the Russian designate their Mortars 82mm instead of 81mm, to avoid having to make the Mortar Round the same as anything else in 81mm. I do not know, but I Suspect the Mortars rounds are interchangeable but with lost of Accuracy, for I can NOT find anything else in the Former Soviet Arsenal of 81mm, the old field guns from WWII was 76mm with the Soviets NOT having anything smaller. During WWI the Strokes 3 inch Mortar evolved into the post-WWI 81mm Mortar, but there is no reason why the Soviet Union COULD NOT just have developed its own 82mm Mortar during to its isolation from the west in the 1920s and 1930s.

[orleans]

3. this past week they were saying that our gov. knew they were

weapons from iran because they were matching up the serial numbers.

and i thought: how the fuck do we know what country those serial numbers belonged to?

hummm.....

[Strelnikov_]

4. Because the firm the US military contracted with to produce mortar shells

outsourced to a Chinese firm allowing them to lay off a couple hundred high paid first world workers to boost their profits.

The Chinese firm, being overloaded with all the work being sent overseas, subcontracted with an Iranian jobber.

And the brother-in-law of the Iranian jobber that the owner had to hire at his wife's insistence, and who works in the shipping department, has been skimming and selling to the local arms black marketeers.


Or, we're just being fed another line of shit.


Take your pick.

[LSK]

5. yes / no

Many signs in Iran have english also written on them.

Having said that, what on there indicates Iran???

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. Okay, I'm sold, let's start dropping the bombs!

What a bunch of bullshit. Those things look like they were made by REMCO in the 60's.

[Big Pappa]

7. I can understand the English

if they were made somewhere else then sold to Iran. I would like to know if they have a serial # that can be tracked.

[happyslug]

9. Such Numbers would be on the Box the round is shipped in

Mortars rounds are shipped two a box (at least the 4.2 inch I used in the National Guard). I never used the 81, but I did play with the 60mm as an insert to the 4.2 (To fire cheaper 60mm rounds instead of more expensive 4.2 inch rounds). I can not remember how the 60mm came in, for most of the time we used 4.2 inch mortars for its bigger blast, longer range and deeper penetration.

[doublethink]

18. But US Officials are claiming that THE MORTAR SHELLS ......

were MANUFACTURED IN IRAN. Along with the EFP's ..... read any goggled article about it carefully. So this 'dossier' is claiming these weapons had no middle man, or other country involved. Of course they may change their story tomorrow. :eyes: Peace.

[riverwalker]

27. dossier side note

A female FOX news anchor was reporting the story and pronounced "dossier" as
"dozer". The word completely befuddled her. I almost fell off the couch.:rofl:

[originalpckelly]

30. Well, they'll need a 'dozer soon to move all this bullshit we're being fed...

I just cannot believe they are doing it again.

[MidwestTransplant]

10. Assuming these are Iranian munitions, if it was an oganized effort

by the Iranian gov't, resumably they would try to eliminate any evidence that would allow it to be traced back to Iran.

Consequently I assume they were sold/stolen from seapons stockpiles by corrupt soldiers.

[krispos42]

11. Why would Iran be giving away new stuff?

It seems to me that if I was the officer told to surreptitiously slip some ordinance to Iraqis, I would use the chance to dump the oldest stuff I could find.

Also, since the Iranians probably have a lot of seized non-Iranian weapons from various military campaigns, like the Kurds in the north, why would they not give away that hodge-podge of stuff?

Finally, why would the date of manufacture be stenciled in such large numbers? I can understand the caliber and shell type being that big. Easy to see in dim light and during the chaos of combat. But the manufacturing date? That's not something you worry about in the heat of combat.

[Union Thug]

12. Considering the multitude of ways in which munitions might be distributed

I wonder how any one can say with any certainty how these things ended up where they did. And IF the Iranian government was behind it, how come they didn't remove the markings? And...<insert any of the other questions that people have been asking in this thread>

Bullshit meter overload.

If a Bushie says it, consider it a lie.

[Quantess]

13. I'm not convinced.

Even with the light obscuring the letters, it looks like "HE" or something. Not what you say it says.

Your thread is worth a snooze.
:boring:

[Richard Steele]

14. That's exactly what it says-"HE". I don't understand your objection.

:shrug:

[doublethink]

15. The HE stands for High Explosive ......

more english terminology, go figure. Peace.

[Solon]

16. Uhm...(H)igh (E)xplosive?

Is that hard to understand or something? As another person pointed out, they could have bought the round, the problem is that, if the source was Russia, which is reasonable, then it would be in the Cyrillic alphabet, not the Roman one. NOTE: The Cyrillic alphabet doesn't have the letter "H" in it.

In cases like this, the shell had to have come from a major supplier of arms to Iran, recently, and in addition to this, it had to have been a country whose convention is to use Standard English on its arms designation. So, the question is, how much money did the U.S. get for selling it?

[TheLastMohican]

38. The cyrillic does have "H"

only it means "N" literaly.

[Solon]

39. I was referring to the Russian Cyrillic alphabet...

The alphabet varies between nations and language groups, whether they a Slavic languages, or Caucasian languages, etc. In Russian, the closest letter, at least in looks, looks like a "crooked" H, like a cross between an H and an N.

Also, this doesn't explain the combination of H and E, simply because, if this were Russian, the letters would obviously be different, as BB.

[DearAbby]

19. see in itty bitty small letters

in pig latin, "uper-say uper-day ecret-say vidence-eay"... to twice fool the American people to !!TERROR HORROR! BOMB THEM!!...How stupid do they think we are?

[glitch]

28. Since they only listen to themselves their only frame of reference is very stupid indeed. nt

[formercia]

20. Is this the sophisticated weaponry they were talking about?

I guess they used up all of their old mortar shells making car bombs. :sarcasm:

[The Doctor.]

21. I thought it was an international standard

That all weaponry was labelled in English.

But that piece of ordinance is labelled with Euro-Commie METRIC. If it were 'Murkin, it would say 3.18 INCHES!!

[mmonk]

23. I think the EU controls measurements of anything sold overseas.

So metric doesn't determine anything, whether Iranian or US made.

[The Doctor.]

40. LOL... That was 'TiC'.

'Sardonic', if you will.

[mmonk]

41. I know.

I was clarifying for the thread.

[formercia]

25. Some background on Iranian Mortars.

http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?t=8215

http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?s=edd600029a23f58f14f5c6be5ee85da4&attachmentid=3697&stc=1&d=1166709039

http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?s=edd600029a23f58f14f5c6be5ee85da4&attachmentid=3695&stc=1&d=1166708921

The 81 mm Mortar is the US standard bore. The Soviet and Russian Mortars are 82 mm. Using an 82 mm gun tube allows the use of captured 81 mm rounds but not vice versa.

[originalpckelly]

32. Now if we could only see their mortar shell cases...

that would be perfect. I tried to sign up for that forum, hopefully they'll let me in so I can browse around and look for clues.

[formercia]

34. The mortar round does not have a case.

The propellant is held on the body of the round above the fins. An initiator similar to a shotgun shell is in the base of the round. When the round is dropped down the tube, a fixed firing pin hits the primer in the base and ignites the propellant. If you noticed the minimum firing angle of 45 deg., you can visualize that rounds dropped into the tube might not fire at a shallower angle due to friction and decreased acceleration due to gravity.


..that is unless you are talking about the shipping container.

[originalpckelly]

33. This at least puts it in the realm of possibility...

because the mortar rounds are fin stabilized, meaning they are designed for an unrifled barrel, just like the Iranian mortar system.

[happyslug]

47. And every other Mortar less than 120mm (Except the old 4.2 Inch Mortar).

Modern Mortars since introduced during WWI have always been SMOOTH BORE except for the US 4.2 Inch Mortar (used till the 1990s) and various Soviet Large Mortars (160mm and 240mm, both of which are Breech loaders). THe US presently used THREE smooth bore Mortars, the 60mm, the 81mm and the 120mm (Which replaced the old 4.2 Inch).

[itsmesgd]

26. Bomb Ourselves by David Rovics seems appropriate right now

If we are going to bomb the terrorists we are going to have to bomb ourselves.

[The Stranger]

35. Kick.

[TexasLawyer]

36. kick

[karlrschneider]

37. That ordnance could have been made anywhere, AND stenciled anywhere too.

Proves nothing whatever.

[pinniped]

42. Look at those serif fonts. The 'real' 81mm Iranian shells I've been looking at are all sans serif.

Monkeyboy has been playing with his stencils and jumbo crayons again.

[pinniped]

43. They're making it look like this 3-2006 is a big deal or something.

Any schmuck (including presidunce POS*) with a stencil and paint can make that date say whatever they want.

FN stupid.