"The Good German Syndrome" and "Jewish Influence"

[Tyler Durden]

NEITHER PHRASE HAS ANY PLACE HERE.

And don't try to stick any Holocaust denier stuff in here: that's not the issue. Suppose I start using the same sort of bullshit language for blacks or women?

"Radical Feminism"
"Black Radicals"

Sound good? FUCK this nonsense. We are supposed to be above that. You can be a an "AUTHORITARIAN IDEOLOGY" follower if you are black, white, brown, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish or WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE.

You want to use "NAZI?" Fine. There are still Nazis out there, but the shit based on "THE GOOD (insert nationality/religious or ethnic group here) SYNDROME" or the "THE (insert nationality/religious or ethnic group here)INFLUENCE PROBLEM" is the worst kind of Jim Crow racist horseshit.

Show some maturity, if you don't mind. If I have used anything remotely similar to these revolting concepts in the past, I have tried to learn from my mistakes. It's a good thing.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

1. Can we still use the term Canadian?

:evilgrin:

[Tyler Durden]

4. Cute. But let's not minimize the subject TOO much.

I've seen far too many who are ready to tar with one brush or the other (and even the epithet "tar" can be construed to make "black" an undesirable thing to be).

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

13. Sorry kinda of an inside joke with the voices in my head

:-) I think both terms have their place in historical discussions. One could hardly describe Hollywood's embrace of the war cause pre-Pearl Harbor in relation to the isolationist views of much of the rest of the country without bringing up the Jewish angle.

As for a good german. Caucasian americans relate to the modern industrialized white Christan Germans. Hence the reason we never hear good Cambodian or Good Rwandan.

[LeftishBrit]

2. I agree

Complaints of 'Jewish influence' have no place on a liberal board (or anywhere). And as regards 'Good German syndrome' - it's 62 years since the war ended; and modern Germany could give many other countries a few lessons about safeguards against dictatorship!

[Tyler Durden]

5. Well put. Thank you. N/T

[Hardrada]

3. And I weary of Ole and Lena jokes that portray Norwegian-Americans

or Scandinavians generally as being entirely rural and dense. I got the joke first time around. Do people tell Polack jokes anymore? Maybe I'm too sensitive but there aren't any Oles or Lenas left anymore. I haven't heard Norski accents for almost twenty years now.

[Tyler Durden]

7. I empathize, but being from CANADIAN extraction...

...With Scots, Irish and German composing the full spectrum in Canada, ethnic JOKES bother me little, but Ethnic CLEANSING on the other hand...

[TahitiNut]

17. Uffda!

:silly:

[provis99]

67. Oh, yah, you betcha

Come on! Where I live its wall to wall with living stereotypes of scandihuvians! They love their guns, put cream and sugar on everything they eat, say "Yah" or "Yu betcha" every second sentence, and half the town is illiterate and thinks the world is flat. These stereotypes exist because the people are real and still exist!

[bbgrunt]

6. can we still call them republican douchbags?

[Tyler Durden]

9. Why not?

I've cured myself of disparaging Log Cabin Republicans specifically though. Now I just disparage ALL of them.

[jhrobbins]

80. No, I think you should go back to disparaging the Log Cabin guys.

;-) :hi: :yourock: :rofl:



(Sorry, I love the emoticons)

[Jed Dilligan]

8. Those who applaud or enable the American fascist police state

are perfectly comparable to those who applauded or enabled the German fascist police state.

[Tyler Durden]

11. Use NAZI in place of GERMAN.

I very seldom here ITALIANS from their FASCIST POLICE STATE being called anything but FASCISTS.

GERMANS are by nature PEOPLE. Nothing better, nothing worse. Unless of course you wish to validate "Jewish Influence" as a valid term?

Thought not. I don't either.

[Jed Dilligan]

33. What a boring thing to worry about

German-American victimization?

Get back to me when someone genocides on your ass.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

43. On second thought, Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.

Hannibal ATE the "FREE RANGE RUDE"

I'll just choose to ignore your.

[Jed Dilligan]

49. Like I care.

[Usrename]

56. You lost me already.

What does "Nazi" have to do with "good german?"

From Wiki on "good Germans":

"The term has come to be used to refer more generically to people in any country who observe reprehensible things taking place — whether done by a government or by another powerful institution — but remain silent, neither raising objections nor taking steps to change the course of events."

How do you figure this equates to membership in the National Socialist German Workers' Party?

Maybe I just need help trying to follow your train of thought here.

[Tyler Durden]

61. This is the gist of the argument:

The phrase "The Good Germans" is offensive to me and others of German extraction. The phrase "Jewish Influence" is the same to people of Jewish extraction. My point is that there are ways to express displeasure with Fascists or with the State of Israel other than pissing on Germans or Jews as groups through language. I implied from my angle that if you needed to express an opinion with more vigor, use Nazi since the American Nazi party (and even in the Russian Republic of all places) are still in existence.

[Usrename]

78. I think I get what you are saying now.

I think you want to try and replace one pejorative (that you feel uncomfortable about) with a different pejorative. The problem is that the two have completely different meanings.

It would be the same if I said that the phrase "Indian giver" is offensive to me, and that everyone should just use the term "savages" instead. It makes no sense whatsoever. Do you see this?

As for the term "Jewish Influence", I can only guess that you are referring to what has been identified as the Israeli lobby. I hope that is what you are talking about, and again two entirely different concepts are being conflated. I'm not sure what, if anything, that the Israeli lobby has to do with Judaism, other than Israel is obviously a Jewish state. But the Israeli lobby is an American phenomenon that has very little, as far as I can tell, to do with any religion, except perhaps for some deep-rooted beliefs in empire or apartheid.

[Tyler Durden]

81. You have missed the point.

I do not wish ANY pejorative used. There is no need to attach an ethnicity or lineage to a phrase that is translated as "Collaborator" or "Fascist" any more than there is a need to attach same to the word "Influence."

I am OPPOSING the use of the phrase "Jewish Influence" as inappropriate as I am opposing the use of the phrase "The Good Germans" as inappropriate. If a foreign state is identified as using undue influence, identify that GOVERNMENT, not some ethnic group. If you wish to designate a group of Passive Totalitarian Supporters, do so without attaching some specific nationality as if they were the origin of such support as a function of their nature.

To use your example: "Indian Giver" does not translate as "savages"; it is syntactically lazy to use the phrase in the first place, and is emotionally charged. That has nothing to do with what I suggested.

[Usrename]

127. Now you lost me again.

You said: "Use NAZI in place of GERMAN. "

Are you saying that it wouldn't be insulting to call someone a Nazi? That's not a perjorative?

And that was the whole point of my example: "Indian Giver" does not translate as "savages"; "good German" does not translate as "Nazi." It has everything to do with what you suggested.

[goodgd_yall]

75. The term doesn't derive from Nazi behavior

But from German behavior during the Nazi era.

I've heard the argument about using Nazi instead of German many times in my life. I think it's source is the unwillingness to accept unpleasant truths about the German response to Nazism.

[Tyler Durden]

87. "Cracker. Hillbilly. Po' White Trash"

All responses to inappropriate behavior toward Blacks, Liberalism, etcetera.

"The Good German" and "Jewish Influence" should be sentenced to the scrap pile, along with those epithets.

[cali]

12. It's not really analagous

and that's not really the point. Also, its being misused here as a term of derision for those who disagree with a given position- but do NOT applaud or enable fascism. Pretty ironic, that.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. Hey, love your posts

not

[bryant69]

21. What about those who oppose the American Fascist Police state

but happen to choose different tactics than you? Like say working through elected Democrats? Are they enablers?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Tyler Durden]

26. "American" is hardly an "Ethnic Group" though...

...would you not agree? I don't really oppose anyone who opposes our li'l ol' police state. Enemy of my enemy, that sort of thing.

Nationalism has been the direct cause of almost as much conflict as organized religion; time for "my team can nuke your team..." to go the way of the...

Almost said "dinosaur." Now with the latest bird evolution theories, got to come up with something new.

[bryant69]

29. Well American is an identity if not an ethnic group

That said, I am usually accused of being a Good German or the equivalent when I am supporting Congressional Democrats - which one could argue is opposing President Bush's policies.

But to some it doesn't look that way - if the Congressional Democrats are enablers of Bush power than supporting them makes me also a supporter of the Bush Administration. Or that's the theory.

Bryant

[Tyler Durden]

32. Naw. Ain't bringing "Bush" into this one.

This item is purely Orwellian Semantics to me, bryant. Words have more power than we should give them, but as long as they do, perhaps we should all watch where we step.

No sense in being, to use a buzz phrase,"Politically Correct" for its own sake: more for coming together as one group oppose to being many in conflict.

[Jed Dilligan]

35. Are you working to end the police state

through elected Democrats or otherwise?

And how do you know I'm not?

[bryant69]

36. I have no idea what you are doing and frankly don't care

But most people who accuse me of being a Good German or the equivalent usually do it because I am defending Congressional Democrats.

Bryant

[Jed Dilligan]

37. I only use it on people who idolize the police

and take their side in every situation.

[bryant69]

38. Ah well i've done that

Not in every situation but obviously in some situations.

Bryant

[lateo]

51. Indeed.

It is time for us to stop supporting the people who enable our enemy. I keep hearing people say "just get behind who ever is nominated"...been there done that. If we keep doing that nothing will change.

[Jed Dilligan]

55. War on Drugs kept me out of this party until 2000,

Bush drove me into the party. If the party follows Bush, I'm out again. Guess I'm not a "Good American."

[cali]

10. Not just right, but completely right.

"the good german" thing has been making me uncomfortable. And that an OP straight out of Stormfront, just got 65 posts (many confronting the OP, but quite a few responding as if it were legit) and 9 votes for the Greatest page, is really depressing.

Well said and k&r

[Tyler Durden]

14. I think that poster was badly misguided...

...I've had confront some of those out of Stormfront in PERSON. I don't think that OP qualifies; not sensitive to the power of their language: but not a Nazi.

[cali]

16. I disagree. Growing sophistication

and infiltration is the name of that game. Check with SPLC if you don't believe me. That poster was not simply misguided.

[Tyler Durden]

19. 'Scuse the lack of knowledge here: SPLC?

Acronym not known.

If we fault this person as some sort of Nazi, then what is Hilary Clinton with her "...Jew and Non-Jew alike..." in her support of the State of Israel? Sort of divides the world into two camps, with all that entails.

No. I allow a certain amount of lack of sensitivity: one such as them finds it hard to divide support for Israel (something they don't like) from Jewishness (may be neutral on) when one passes a schule in New York City with a big banner that says "WE COMPLETELY SUPPORT ISRAEL" (something I saw first hand).

I don't call all Fundamentalists RIGHT WING ASSHOLES, but I had to learn not to do it. One schule does not all of Jewry make.

[cali]

24. That person

was staight out anti-semitic. No other possible interpretation. SPLC is the Southern Povety Law Center: http://www.splcenter.org/index.js

I deplore HRC's pandering, but fail to see how it fits into whether or not that poster was a bigot.


If someone wrote that Black influence on America is a problem would you consider them a racist? I would. If someone wrote that muslim influence on the U.S. is a problem, would you consider them anti-Muslim? I would. Why is it different if someone decries the "Jewish Influence" on the U.S.?

[Tyler Durden]

30. What is the difference if you examine...

RACIAL INFLUENCE or RELIGIOUS INFLUENCE instead of denoting specifics under the large heading? Both accomplish the task. But "JEWISH INFLUENCE" will always bear the brand of genocide. It is not a good term to use in any forum.

That said, I think your ox has been gored, and you are reacting from that: take a minute, and consider the source OP. Everyone can't be Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa or Albert Einstein. We are all as we are, and some considerably worse.

As to Clinton's speech, Her "jew and non-jew" comment demonstrates the same inability to separate what could be called Jewish Ethnicity (as in "The State of Israel") where citizens should be properly called "Israelis," from the Religion of Judaism.

Understand that I personally see no problem in visualizing the difference, where the OP you refer to does appear to have that issue.

[bryant69]

15. That Good German Stuff really sticks in the craw

I heartily recommend following this course of action.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[uppityperson]

18. Are you asking to change terms, to leave the "german" part out?

The idea is a necessary one to be able to refer to, but don't use "german" since this targets 1 country, but use "authoritarian ideology follower" instead? I think this is what you are saying, am I right?

1/2 my ancestors were German, and I see this phrase being used not to target Germans in particular, but to point out a bad time in their past, which could also apply to Poland and other countries who let the nasty people go on being nasty. I do see your point, rather like when I visit France and we walk on the beaches which were Hell for a short time in world history but mostly are just beaches where people walk and picnic. Changing terms, esp when the alternative is the unwieldy "authoritarian ideology follower" may not be easy but I understand what you are getting at, if that is what you mean.

[Tyler Durden]

25. Close enough.

Simply tired of clannish rhetoric. Separation of groups is what breeds war. Time to outgrow this silly shit.

[uppityperson]

28. Indeed, Us vs Them. The idea of a group going along, going along, going along,

and suddenly realizing that what they went along with (oppressing a group for some reason) suddenly becomes personal and they figure out all that they have given up rather than make waves or risk themselves, that needs a term and we need to figure out one to use that is fast and easily recognizable because, like it or not, we live in a time of sound bites.

Good idea on your part. We don't "jew people down" but cheat them or take advantage of them, though people still "gyp" others also. Terminology can be changed. Thanks for the thoughts and will think more on this too.

[Vilis Veritas]

20. Thank you Tyler.

You did a very good thing.

Peace.

[Tyler Durden]

23. My German 25% just got a little "itchy," I guess.

Normally I'm "melting pot" to the max, but I've heard too much divisive bullshit for a while.

That whole "Pile On" thread to the marginally insensitive poster with their "Jewish Problem" comment followed by "The Good German Syndrome" just got under my skin.

The longer we place separationist games, the closer we get to blowing ourselves up.

But then, what the fuck do I know? I'm just an aging Socialist.

[Vilis Veritas]

27. You made my day...

Peace.

[Tyler Durden]

45. I wish this thread had made MINE>

Two posters made my ignore list here today.

Insensitive bastards.

[kineneb]

59. kinda irked my German 25% too

a conglomeration from both sides of the family equals about 25%...

Hateful name "yelling" gets us nowhere. We must all look at events as rationally as possible, to determine what we should do next.

The group of regressives we are up against have no scruples about anything. Their only goal is to line their pockets as quickly as possible and escape into the night. They dangle along the Dominionists to pad their votes, but in the end, the religious right means nothing to them.

I think the term "good follower" is more appropriate for further discussions. For there were other leaders in other times that had those "good followers". As an example, there were the citizens and inhabitants of Rome. They sat and watched the Republic crumble and then the empire rot from within. Granted, it took several generations, but still, they did nothing to change their circumstances. And perhaps they could not do anything.

[Tyler Durden]

91. Thank you.

I like "Fellow Traveler." It does have some Red-Baiting tinges, but they aren't as in your face as "The Good Germans."

Your Rome example is especially well put.

[ThomCat]

22. A bunch of us get called "radical feminists"

all the time. Usually for expressing even slightly feminist viewpoints. Apparently, if you can be identified as a feminist then you are radical.

The same seems to be true of vegetarians/vegans. If people know you are a vegetarian/vegan then apparently you are a radical.

:shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

31. "Radical" has become an epithet.

I remember it meaning "REVOLUTIONARY (in the positive sense)" and "NEW."

Orwell was right.

[arendt]

39. This is flame bait. Any post using "Jewish Influence" will degerate into a fight.

If you think you are scoring points with this, you are sadly mistaken.

Last time I looked, Germans themselves did not object to the "good German"
label. And that's all it is, a label. A label for passive collaboration,
a label for surviving while your neighbors got murdered by your own police.

This is a worthless analogy that brings in all the worst possible associations.

If you wanted to start a brawl, you couldn't do better.

arendt

[Tyler Durden]

40. I am a large percentage German. I OBJECT.

My goodness has nothing to do with being German or not.

Find another discriminatory metaphor if you don't mind very much.

[arendt]

41. Not biting. You started a flamebait. You drown in it. "Jewish Influence" my ass. n/t

[Tyler Durden]

44. I didn't start it. I said insuated either was incorrect.

Which they are. You know what? I took two off my IGNORE list today. I got room.

[arendt]

50. Please rewrite. What is "insuated either was incorrect"? ??? n/t

[arendt]

52. Just FYI - I am getting some ignores in this thread, and can't follow the argument perfectly. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. Why is it the only sensibilities you give a shit about are your own?

The poster claimed to be of German descent and stated a problem with the way you toss that term around. You replied with a hearty "FUCK YOU", albeit not in so many words. Really sensitive and progressive action on your part.

I'm curious... The "Good Germans" you speak of are those who survived while their neighbors were carted off to the ovens or shot in the street, right? How do you classify those "other" Germans; the ones who LOST their lives because the SS had guns, and they didn't? You'll accept that they were German Citizens too, right? Since you seem to be referencing those who survived with what I and others think is a slur, were they, in your mind "Bad Germans"?

I don't give a fuck what wikipedia says about your term. You're using it to describe something that is going on TODAY, not then. The term doesn't apply now, and I daresay you wouldn't use it while discussing anything at all if you were conversing with a German National.

So, by your thinking, my Cherokee ancestors who died on the Trail of Tears were "Good Indians"? Or were they "Bad Indians" because the "Good Indians" were the ones who had not the capacity to fight back, and resigned themselves to their fate?

And lastly, when was the "last time" you checked to see if Germans (Actually living in Germany) felt about your use of that term?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arendt]

63. Because being of German extraction has nothing to do with being a "good German". That's a canard.

Am I not supposed to use "Dutch Uncle" for fear of offending the Dutch?

> And lastly, when was the "last time" you checked to see if Germans (Actually living in Germany) felt about your use of that term?

This afternoon, I asked the German guy in my office. He said that the Germans know the term and are not offended by it.

> I don't give a fuck what wikipedia says about your term. You're using it to describe something that is going on TODAY, not then. The term doesn't apply now, and I daresay you wouldn't use it while discussing anything at all if you were conversing with a German National.

Yes, the term does apply. It is common usage, like Kleenex, Xerox, Dutch Uncle, Chinese Fire Drill (quick call the Chinese Defense Fund :sarcasm:). Your saying it doesn't makes no difference.

This whole argument is about whether or not it is ever permissible to use the phrase IN ITS CORRECT MEANING on DU. It seems like you are on the side of censoring one of the few phrases that is widely understood shorthand for "enabling authoritarian behavior by silence in the face of events you PERSONALLY witness". Try googling you will get about 800 hits, which are all about "good german beer", "i speak good german", and other off-target fragments. If you have some a shorthand for "enabling authoritarian behavior..." that is well-known, I will be glad to ADD it to my vocabulary.

Now, as to your "outrage". The poster parades a non-sequitur as an argument, and you pile on with another. "Good Indian" is as similar to "Good NIght" as it is to "Good German". That is, only by the sound of the word. I refuse to buy into the false analogies put about to avoid the issue of whether or not DU will allow the phrase "Good German" IN ITS CORRECT MEANING.

> How do you classify those "other" Germans; the ones who LOST their lives because the SS had guns, and they didn't?

I classify them as victims. Victims of the Nazis, and indirect victims of any "good German" who had an opportunity to shelter them (as some Germans did), but didn't. Is the distinction beyond your grasp? That is the topic of my other post "DUers: "We don't do nuance."

I can do outrage too. Because I am really getting upset with having to defend the dictionary definition of a word from a bunch of PC censors.

arendt

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. "IN ITS CORRECT MEANING", but googling it can't bring a result for your claim that it's

"widely understood"?

Go Figure.

[arendt]

65. Googling for SYNONYMS of it gives nothing, proving my point that this phrase is of value. n/t

[arendt]

66. If it isn't widely understood (i.e., no one gets it), why are you so upset? n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

69. Why do you need "shorthand" for "enabling authoritarian behavior?

Some strange need to be thought of as being cool, or having a quick wit for using "shorthand" vocabulary?

I'm done. You win. Disparage away, and FUCK the sensibilities of anyone who disagrees.

[Tyler Durden]

70. They do it because they are syntactically LAZY.

AND they think it's cool or something.

[arendt]

72. So, since you're here, can you please answer my earlier request for a rewrite? n/t

[arendt]

71. Shorthand, like "free market", allows people to remember and to converse...

about larger, more abstract ideas.

Hey, why don't we all program computers in assembly code? I mean "c" and Java are just for "being cool".
Why don't we all order the parts in a kit one a time? I mean parts kits are just for "being cool".

Shorthand is valuable. That's why it was invented.

I am sorry that you quit before you understand what I'm talking about. I was beginning to feel
like this was a conversation where some facts were going back and forth.

I encourage you to continue to participate in the manner you did. I can deal with this kind of exchange,
because I get a human vibration behind your posts.

Be yourself.

arendt

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. Okay. But first I have to get dinner on before my wife comes home.

It'll be a while before I get back to you.

Bear with me.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

128. The reason those who resisted the Nazis got killed

Was that there were far too few of them and they started far too late.

That is what is happening in the US...

[cali]

47. You missed the OP this morning that talked

about how the "Jewish Influence" on America is dangerous. That's why the OP of this thread refers to it. No, you can't find it, the mods disappeared it. But it did make the greatest page with nine votes!

[renie408]

90. "We surveyed all Germans...and the survey SAYS..."

'The last time you looked'? You checked with Germans to determine their reaction to this phrase??

HOW?

[Cronus Protagonist]

42. IBL (n/t)

[Tyler Durden]

46. Been open since 11:30 this morning.

I think if it were going to be, it would have already. But it wouldn't be a "bad thing." Some folks ain't gittin' the message.

[Cronus Protagonist]

48. I know, and when people don't get the message

...and Hitler is mentioned.... well.... you know.... :)

[Name removed]

54. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ecstatic]

58. The Good DUer syndrome nt

:crazy:

[Swamp Rat]

60. Sehr lustig!

:rofl:

[Raejeanowl]

62. Hear, Hear!

But don't stop there. Ask who has problems with the fact that DU participation has rules, and whether they think they should or shouldn't be obliged to observe them. If they do obey, are they being "sheep?" If others do, are they knuckling under to authority? If I think everyone should, am I authoritarian?

Thanks for your thoughts, Tyler. I hope they encourage some honest introspection.

[blondeatlast]

68. Oh. My. God. I agree with Tyler Durden. Ice water service begins in the Seventh Circle of Hell in 15

minutes.

:thumbsup:

[goodgd_yall]

74. The Good German---I see it more akin to "The Ugly American."

It has some truth in it.

It's not like Germans have been victims of anything; if that were the case then I might find it an objectionable term.

Sorry, but I'm not buying your OP.

[Tyler Durden]

82. We aren't talking about victims.

We are talking about prejudicial speech.

The "Ugly American" refers to an anomaly: as if it was not "Normal" to be that.

"The Good German" also refers to an anomaly: as if Germans are normally "Bad" and "The Good German" is not the norm.

Just because you do not "judge" them to be "victims" does not entitle you to belittle, any more that it would be your right to say about a successful black man "He's one of the Good Ones."

Do what you wish, of course; but the use of a prejudicial term belittles the user as well.

[KG]

76. my german 25% isn't offended by the term.

it recognizes the historical context. i never use it myself, but that's just little ol' me.

[Tyler Durden]

85. Mine is.

If I were 25% black, use of the phrase "...he's one of the 'Good Ones'..." would offend ME.

[KG]

115. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[scarletwoman]

130. OMG! You've just given me the biggest laugh I've had in AGES!

:rofl:

I LOVE you!!!!! (not that I'm suggesting coitus...)

sw
:loveya:

[mmonk]

77. I'll continue to use the term "good German"

because everybody knows what it means and I will continue to use it where it fits. This is not a slam to Germans, but of the 1930's phenomenon that occurred there.

[scarletwoman]

79. I'm with you. I will also continue to use the term where it fits.

Thanks for speaking up.

sw

[Tyler Durden]

83. You belie your signature.

Shall I use "BITCH" in describing a woman where I judge it fits? I think not.

Do as you will: use of prejudicial speech belittles the user as well as the recipient.

[scarletwoman]

129. I simply don't buy your argument. If the Holocaust had been perpetrated by the government of Britain

we'd be referring to the "Good Brits". It's a reference to a particular mode of behavior on the part of citizens whose government was undertaking atrocities. It is a very specific reference grounded in historical fact.

And with things going as they are in the present day, I can see a future time when references will be made to "Good Americans". And we will most certainly deserve it. I do everything I can to NOT be that sort of "Good American", but I will not hide behind some sort of spurious self-righteousness and declare myself "offended" by a reference that is well-deserved and clearly earned.

"Good German" is NOT a dig at the German people, any more than "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts" is a slam on the Greek people. It is a metaphor born out of a specific situation of a particular group of human beings behaving in a specific manner.

Metaphors rooted in historical events are in no way equivalent to racial and gender-based slurs. I find it regrettable that you apparently can't see the difference.

sw

[Tyler Durden]

84. I suppose the same might be said for "BITCH"...correct?

Or other more prejudicial terms....

Hey, YOU know what I mean, nudge nudge.

Say what you will. As I have said, the use of prejudicial speech belittles the user as well.

[mmonk]

86. My referral to the term "good German" is a well known historical term

in every country on the globe and is not a prejudicial term except maybe for the historical illiterate. I have nothing against the German people. I like their country. Calling me a bigot does not make your accusation true nor honest.

[Tyler Durden]

88. Show me the word "bigot"

I didn't use it.

I merely expressed my opinion as to what I would feel about a person who used that phrase in my presence.

The same as I would feel if they used "Jewish Influence."

Let's just say it wouldn't exactly elevate them in stature as far as I was concerned.

Do what you will, of course.

[mmonk]

92. The term "good German" is understood to be limited

to a period of German history whereby it's ruling party at that time, the Nazi party divided up the German people and those that went along with the Reich were to be considered "good Germans". Germans considered to be "enemies" were Jews, communists, Gypsies, and such but they were Germans also.

[Tyler Durden]

99. There are DOZENS of terms known to be limited.

All women are not "BITCHES." All men are not "PRICKS."

And the term "Good German" is used today to imply something that is equally ugly.

[Tyler Durden]

89. PS: my minor was to be in History.

I do not consider myself a "Historic Illiterate." I find the phrase objectionable. If you are say, Native American, you might find "Indian" objectionable, as would be your right. However, it's a well known historical term in every country on the globe...

[mmonk]

93. Totally different. It's a racial term.

[renie408]

95. Ok...wait...it's OK to denigrate an entire country of people, but not a race?

Wow. Interesting mental gymnastics.

[mmonk]

98. Mental gymnastics indeed.

The term "good German" is not denigrating Germans in the way you are twisting things. Denigrating Germans would be to call them Nazis or krauts just as denigrating Japanese would be to call them Japs. For example, if someone says they are German, I don't respond by asking them if they are a "good German". The term "good German" refers to a policy and forced behavior subjected to the German people by the Nazi government in the 1930's and does not translate in any other way.

[renie408]

100. Ok, I can see that.

Part of my problem with the phrase is that it is over- and misused here. Some people have latched onto it and throw it around in situations that are not apropos.

[Tyler Durden]

102. I can't.

Sorry. NOBODY I've seen lately has used it in reference to Germany in the 1930's. Even then, it's still pejorative.

[mmonk]

103. That may be true, I'm sure.

[Tyler Durden]

101. Fine.

Then do not protest "Fairy Queen," "Tree Hugger," or "Cracker."

Play mental gymnastics instead.

And see what you get when you refer to an African American as "...One of the 'Good Ones." I don't think the Gymnastics will be "mental."

[Apollo11]

97. Not well known by me

I lived in England for more than 20 years and I never once heard anyone being referred to as a "good German".

It is common for people to refer to overly authoritarian and rule-enforcing types as "Nazis".

But to be honest I don't understand your concept of being a "good German".

Does it mean all the people who went along with Hitler and enabled his rise to power?

There does seem to be an automatic connection in your mind between "German" and "1930s".

This is a connection that would be considered very offensive anywhere in Europe of the 2000s.

All my German friends were born after 1945 and are very aware of the need to defend human rights.

So I support the OP. It's unfair to use the word "German" as code for something negative.

[Tyler Durden]

104. Bravo and thank you.

[mmonk]

106. Fine. You can take me out of context.

I am not referring to Germans though. I will accept criticism by Germans only. Watch out for those Romans though. I hear if you are in Rome, do as the Romans do. Ooops, there I go denigrating citizens of present day Rome and Italy. Sorry.

[Tyler Durden]

110. Where is the slur in that?

You really are splitting hairs now just to try and make a point. Someone called my oldest boy a "N-word" when he was about 10. He's not African American; I'm sure the kid who said it wasn't using it to denote an African American. Does that make the slur less?

Why defend the right to say something someone feels offense to? By the way, I believe that phrase was originally Latin, and was meant to imply that the Roman Way was a more correct way to behave, or by inference when one is in a place act as those who live there do.

[Apollo11]

113. For me it's on the same level as "Indian giver"

That's why I think it's better to use neutral language to describe people who "go along to get along".

Unless you are specifically referring to what happened in Germany during the 1930s.

And even then I would use quote marks to cite the concept of a "Good German".

[renie408]

94. 'Good German' is easy, it is inflammatory and it works. People won't stop using it

as long as it gets that Pavlovian response from some of the people here. They see 'Good German' used as a epithet against someone and immediately start screaming "fascist appeaser", "authoritarian", etc. As long as that shorthand gets the response the user wants, they are going to keep using it.

BTW...'fascist' is another one. I swear, I wish Skinner would permanently stick the definition of 'fascism' to the top of the GD homepage. I think I see that word misused at least 10 times a day here.

[Tyler Durden]

107. Fascist and authoritarian are not ethnically linked.

As far as not using a stupid phrase, I'm sure there are many people in this country that still use the "N" word as a part of normal speech: I heard it used this morning, as in "N-rigged."

Mis-using a word's definition is a little different than a racial/religious/ethnic slur.

[mmonk]

109. Exactly. The term "good German" does not apply generally to the German people.

Maybe if you were Jewish, you could understand the term better.

[Tyler Durden]

112. Is that "Jewish Influence?"

I apologize for using that slur to make a point.

Maybe if you were German (or were proud of your German Heritage) you'd be offended too.

[mmonk]

116. I am of Anglo Saxon descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

[Tyler Durden]

118. My relatives were Prussian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia
Brandenburg district, Near the Posen district border. Both of my Grandmother's Parents came over on the same boat from the same area. His name was GAIEFSKY.

[nofurylike]

123. well said, mmonk. thank you. eom

[Ripley]

96. Outright censorship, eh?

NEITHER PHRASE HAS ANY PLACE HERE.

So Tyler Durden is the final arbiter of what terms are allowed to be discussed on this site?

Radical Feminism is used all the time by the Feminists in the FG, so I would submit you don't know what you are talking about.

Oh, wait. It's so like mature you know to completely misrepresent what the discussion is about and like you know lie that people are smearing a group of people and you know if the History Channel talks about it, wait...

[Tyler Durden]

105. Then don't protest when someone uses YOUR heritage as a slur.

I have the right to be offended by the implications of that phrase.

I assume you are then approving the phrase "Jewish Influence." Correct or no?

[Ripley]

108. Guess what?

I actually know a real live GERMAN (dual citizenship) whose father was in the Germany army in WWII. HE understands what the term means in the context of that time period. HE understands the GUILT that country has had to endure. HE understands that the situation where government so controlled people that they feared speaking out and PROTESTING was WRONG. They BANNED the swastika in their country. They HATE that America is repeating the same steps that led to the horrors in their country.

Why are you trying to be so obtuse?

[Tyler Durden]

111. I am in a similar situation.

I work with a German lady, with similar credentials. I just asked her what she would feel like if someone used the phrase "Good German" around her, and she suggested she might slap them.

Takes all kinds.

You're STILL defending the right to use an offensive phrase. That should be more than enough for a sensitive person to stop using it. Nothing Obtuse here: I understand your argument; I just take issue with the phrase in common usage.

[mmonk]

114. Let us smoke from the pipe of peace. I apologize to any who

are offended whenever I use term "good German". I do not apply this term as a generalization of Germans or Germany. I will continue to use it however in comparitive analysis of governments because I feel it is an important historical marker in the analysis of comparative government and human behavior study.

[Tyler Durden]

121. Truce.

I will continue of course continue to not use the sort of denotation that must take advantage of taking sides and making one look inferior to the other. I do not believe in "good ______/bad ______" and merely consider myself of partial German extraction.

[nofurylike]

117. speaking as a german, i am humiliated by you. how good

german you sound there. :puke:

listen up: the only pride we have ANY right to have in our... choke... heritage is in our naming it, owning it, self-criticizing it, being humbled by it, being dedicated to never, ever, ever being that arrogant, self-righteous, DEFENSIVE!!....

breathe.

and we all know, don't we, who you really are? i sure do. i know you from those behind-closed-doors unveilings of how proud-of-our-heritage germans REALLY feel. after all, would you have said what you did about hillary and "jews and non-jews alike..." about her if, when talking about endangerment of blacks, she had said "blacks and non-blacks alike... "? be honest. i see.

look at yourself, listen to yourself, arrogantly and superioristicly dictating that we all kid-glove your defensivenss.

it is my place to name "good german" as a vitally important sociology. it is my place to compassionately understand why the world wants to name, and protect itself and each other from ever becoming, what my father, grandfather, and so on were. it is my place to learn from others what my knee-jerk defensiveness could be blocking me from understanding. it is my place to be thankful that the world is so forgiving that they WILL help me see past my knee-jerk defensivenesses.

and, as a german, it is your place too... IF you really are NOT what i believe your language and tone expose you as being. 'cause you know like i know that we got the lingo down. we germans know who is who, don't we? don't lie.

people, it is nothing near the same as everything being compared here. this one is one we have a moral imperative to own. "good german" is not a slur. and any german who defends our heritage is to be either re-educated if they can get humble enough to do so, deprogrammed, or watched carefully for 'tells.' they're there, aren't they, herr?

you grow up. you grow into someone who can own our responsibility to the world.

*edit for spelling

[nofurylike]

119. ps - one does compare. "good american." for this country

actually has just as horrifying a heritage. and that can only be said of a few heritages.

the colonization of this hemisphere is the worst genocide in the history of the world.

but then, much of that is german heritage too.


i'm sorry my tirade at herr proud german spat all over everyone here.



peace, all.

[Tyler Durden]

122. "herr proud german"???

How the hell did you last here as long as you have? I'm sorry I tried to respond to your other post. This is simply worthy of IGNORE.

[nofurylike]

124. now, see? there you go judging "worthy"ness. eom

[Tyler Durden]

120. Shame on you.

"The sins of the fathers shall be visited on the sons." Right?

My relatives were POOR Prussians, ruined in the Franco-Prussian War and the unification. They came here in 1875.

You have no right to tell me my place. You are stereotyping, posturing, and judgmental.

As a Socialist and Humanist, it is MY responsibility to the world to make CERTAIN that I do not become as YOU: someone who draws conclusions as they see fit, and casts aspersions they feel are appropriate to their own elite view of their importance.

You HYPOCRITE. "...we all know, don't we, who you really are?" You make the judgments you accuse others of making. As long as there are people who are willing to tell others their place as you are, peace is IMPOSSIBLE.

[nofurylike]

125. now, take those judgments to your OP and measure there. if you

do, you will get what i'm saying.

if you don't, you'll stay arrogant and pushy.


your prerogative.

you are who spoke of proud.

don't lie. i know those keywords and tones all too intimately. so do you.

[nofurylike]

126. better they be run from by the sons? hidden from, feared to admit,

avoiding reparations for, hypersensitive to?

it's your tone. ie, not of one who is remorseful for those sins.

nevermind.

be.

[scarletwoman]

131. Huzzah! Righteous rant! Thank you. I just want you to know that I get what you're saying,

even if no one else does.

sw

[nofurylike]

132. thank you so very much, sw. that means a lot to me! eom

[scarletwoman]

133. You're very, very welcome. (nt)