All this hating on our Democratic speaker, Democratic front runner, last Democratic president

[Proud2BAmurkin]

Sorry, I must have stumbled into Free Repuke.com

:puke:

[Perseid]

1. Not hating

Just questioning and criticism to try and get the people who the people elected to do a better job.

[spoony]

3. I think the problem is the over-the-top way it's being done

I saw Clinton yesterday referred to as a "neocon" and there have been threads about what her "corporate masters" will be telling her to do when in office, etc etc.

It's the jaw-droppingly stupid WAY some people are choosing to criticise them that is objectionable.

[Blashyrkh]

4. I get it. Critcism = hating, regardless of how well intentioned or accurate.

I don't know about anyone else, but I get suspicious of people who continually tell you to shut up, stop agitating and just follow the script.

Over the past couple of weeks I've noticed a few posters who I'd describe as "potentially paid shill" and they uniformly follow the above method. A lot of don't question anything, just shut up and vote Democratic (read: Hillary) in November.

[liberalnurse]

10. No, you don't get it...

It has not been criticism written here of late......Mostly, hate.....If you can't tell the difference then ....well...I believe you actually do know the difference.....

[Blashyrkh]

11. Please post some examples of this "hate" speech you describe.

Most of the hate I've seen has been in the form of labelling anyone not pro-Hillary as a rampant, unrepentant sexist.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

22. Oh fer Pete's SAKE...............

Give it a rest huh?

[emilyg]

23. How's Pete doing???

[Le Taz Hot]

57. Lemme see:

"nutroots," "loony left," "political puriststs" "idelogues," . . . any of these sound familiar? Oh, but the Hillary camp is wounded, WOUNDED, I tell you, by people speaking truth to power. Poor poor baby, can't take the heat with all those corporate dollars hanging out she just can't be protected from all those big meanies calling her on her "bipartisianship" (I think that's what they've been calling it) -- the anointed one. 'Scuze me while I wipe a little tear from my eye. There, that's better. :puke:

[Richard Steele]

20. Exacly so. Never any real discussion, just "conversation stopper" buzzwords and accusations.

Anyone who actually wants to consider/discuss the ISSUES
is immediately smeared as a "Hillary basher" by folks
who don't ever seem to offer any reason to SUPPORT her
beyond their jingoistic cries of "She's gonna win".

It's transparent, it's distastefully authoritarian in its
craven, sniveling "get on the pre-decided bandwagon" mindset,
and IT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE REPUBS DREAMPT OF WHEN THEY STARTED
PUSHING HER AS A CANDIDATE.


They have been "subtly" pushing her nomination for a few years now.
So SAD that some Dems have been sucked into their trap.

After the across-the-board DISASTER of the B*sh Residency, the next
16 years are the Dem's to LOSE.

And the ONLY long-shot chance they have at LOSING them is to nominate
the single most DISLIKED woman in the USofA.

[incapsulated]

25. Man alive, you make the case.

How dare you call me a Hillary basher, she is just being installed by the republicans and the most hated woman on earth. Discuss?

This place is fucking insane.

[Richard Steele]

30. Did you forget the "sarcasm" smiley, or are you just incoherently supportive?

Either way, it's all good; I like yer sigline.

We should get really drunk and discuss the word "irregardless" sometime. :toast:

[sendero]

52. No....

.. its really just that Dems at large are not much smarter than Repubs.

She IS being installed and she IS the most hated politician of any note.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. You Couldn't Be More Wrong About Hillary

When it comes to playing hardball politics she's Michael Corleone with a uterus... If she has to cut her Rethuglican opponents balls off to win she will do it; with her teeth...

That's why Clinton is the only Democratic president in the last twenty eight years to win a presidential election because the Rethuglicans bring a knife to the campaign and we bring a pea shoooter...


"You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? "

-Jim Malone from "The Untouchables"

Hillary is ready to do that...I doubt the other Democrats vying dot the nomination are...

[gorekerrydreamticket]

47. Since when?

When did she start cutting off balls? I guess I haven't seen that. She mostly just straddles issues and takes safe positions from my perspective.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Do Bob Livington, Newt Gingrich, Ken Starr, And Rick Lazio Ring A Bell?

eom

[sendero]

53. We keep hearing this..

.... and yet I cannot think of a SINGLE EXAMPLE where HRC exerted her claimed powers to accomplish ONE GOD DAMNED NOTABLE THING.

Give it a rest. She's might be good at getting elected, how does that help America? She's still a war-supporting corporatist lackey.

[kenfrequed]

73. nope

This is the last redoubt argument of the "he/she/it is the only candidate that can win" bit. It is a useless tired argument that I have seen dozens of times and at best it works less than half the time. It is always a bludgeon or truncheon to your own party during the warm up when we should be debating issues and matching them up with the best candidate and it usually is the arguement the ushers in the least desirable candidate from a policy standpoint.

Quite frankly I do not care if she is 'tough' 'determined' 'ruthless' or able to play hardball with the boys. The same could be said of Margaret Thatcher, but I do not want Margaret Thatcher to be president. I want a candidate that I know stands for what I believe in and can articulate that vision to the rest of the American people.

I also want a candidate that isn't bought and paid for already and for whom the primary doesn't feel like a coronation.

But back to my problem with the 'she's tough' argument, we had a governors race in Minnesota a few years ago and at the lead up all I heard was that kind of absurd argumentation from supporters of the person who ended up being the candidate. "Oh he's a junkyard dog" "He is the only one tough enough to win" "He's a fighter."

Oh yeah, he lost. And the candidate that should have been Governor, Becky Lourie, a woman of incredible poise, personality, and vision did not get her chance to knock Governor Pawlenty off his block.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clintonista2]

54. Question:

Do you consider a thread with the title: "Hillary Clinton and The wicked witch- Separated at birth?" to be "hating" or do you feel that is "criticism"?

[hootinholler]

61. Sarcasm, and somewhat amusing. n/t

[Clintonista2]

79. Not sarcasm

The OP was Illinoisprogressive, who has already implied she will vote 3rd party over Hillary.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. I hate the invasion and the occupation.

I'm disappointed Nancy Pelosi keeps scheduling votes to pay for it;

I'm disappointed Hilllary was for it before she was for it;

and I'm disappointed that Clinton was the greatest Republican President of the 20th Century.

I don't hate the sinners, I just hate the sins.

[Perseid]

9. amen, brother John nt

[liberalnurse]

14. What part of the Democratic Party

do you support, if any? Oh, by the way, you insult the Board and all Democrats by your gross disrespect for President CLINTON.

[John Q. Citizen]

28. I like President Clinton, I bet he'd be fun to have a beer with.

I didn't like the Telecommunications Act

I didn't like that he promoted Iran/Contra be swept under the rug, and it's come back and bitten the whole country like big time in the ass, that it enabled the bush crime family to exist and thrive.

I didn't like NAFTA, and the pain and suffering it's brought to billions.

I didn't like the welfare reform bill.

I didn't like that he embraced the failed war on drugs.

But he's a great campaigner and very charismatic. Smart too.

I support the Progressive Caucus, (The largest caucus in the house)

I support the majority of Dems, who voted against the IWR. I even like Kerry, because at various times in his career, he took on big issues (Vietnam, Iran Contra and the BCCI) that didn't help him politically, in fact hurt him politically, but were the right things to do.

and I support Jimmy Carter. Paul Wellstone was a great man, who had my support.

I'm sure there are others but I don't want to make this too long.


let me ask you this; Is there anybody, anybody at all with a D behind their name that you don't support? Or is that D a magical letter, that makes all other behavior irrelevant?

[RufusTFirefly]

5. Oh, puhleeze

It's just that some of us with a memory longer than a few weeks remember what it used to mean to be a Democrat.

I admire the Progressive Caucus but liken it to the term "investigative reporter." Once upon a time nearly all reporters were investigative ones instead of just stenographers and most Democrats were progressive (heck, when I was a kid we even had "liberal Republicans." Really!), so they didn't all have to sit at just one table in the Democratic Party high school cafeteria. Richard Nixon (considering his policies, not his paranoia) could probably "pass" as a Democrat these days. And the fact that he's dead probably wouldn't make any difference.

[mmonk]

7. psssssst.....

Our constitution is on fire. Someone needs to try and put it out.

[Hoof Hearted]

8. I'm thinking of dumping this forum. It often looks more like the ANTI-Democratic Underground

I'm not a Hillary groupie or anything but the outright BASHING of anyone who dares say she might be a decent President astounds me.

Some of the things I've seen said about Pelosi are just as baffling.

And I still love Bill. Dear God. Every time I see Chimp the Magnificent live from the Rose Garden, I positively PINE for the days of a literate, articulate CIC. Bill did some things I didn't like but in the big picture, he did well, and good.

[incapsulated]

17. No, you can't love Bill

It's a sin to actually like the last two-term democratic president since Truman.

[Evoman]

12. People are disappointed.

After the democrats won the majority of seats, you could almost feel the excitement in this place. Each day that passes where things don't improve, as their lives get worse and worse, you see a backlash. I don't know if its right, and I think people expect too much too quickly, but I UNDERSTAND. I understand their disappointment. I understand the lashing out.

[bellasgrams]

18. Some just don't get it

the Dems have a majority, but it's not large enough to change anything without the help of some Repbs. Any thinking person knows that. Yet the bashing of the Dems continues.
It's absolutely maddening to hear Bill Clinton constantly put down. And you don't hear anyone bad mouthed as much as Hillary. Look up their records. Educate yourselves. If you disagree maybe you're in the wrong party. Check out the real Rebs. and you'll learn quickly that the Dems are the Good Guys.

[JMDEM]

13. Well, there is another party where everyone agrees on everything all the time... nt

[incapsulated]

15. DU ain't the "party"

Most of the democratic party doesn't fucking hate their own representatives.

Yes, HATE.

Legitimate criticism has turned to endless, often illogical ranting and hatred.

[JMDEM]

31. Of course we're pissed

They aren't doing what we elected them to do.

Bush has a 24% approval rating and they still bow to him like a king?

They have an 11% approval rating and they still do whatever they want to do?

And it is still a mystery to you as to why we are pissed?

Maybe we have this silly idea called Democracy.

[ellisonz]

42. The Green Party?

[TreasonousBastard]

16. They claim it's "constructive criticism" but...

I think most of them are full of shit and should take a walk somewhere and either calm down or, if actually trolls and plants, just kill themselves.

It's not like there aren't any of Republicans or Libertarians to complain about, is it?

[EFerrari]

26. Earth to TreasonousBastard.

[ellisonz]

43. America to San Francisco.

Cindy Sheehan are you out there?

[EFerrari]

71. I've looked around, and she's definitely not in my condo.

lol

[RebelSansCause]

19. the people

the people put the democrats in power, they rose to the challenge in the mid-term elections. and where are we now? marginally better than where we were before. pelosi came in with her 100 hundred hours of reform, most of that died. i have not been as happy as i was on that night in november 2006 in a long, long time. each day ANOTHER republican scandal breaks, and yet the war goes on, the eavesdropping, the torture, gitmo...all of it. i sincerely hope that the democrats can capture all 3 branches of governement in 2008, but i want someone with a fire for change, a true fire. as for bill, i was too young to remember his presidency well, but as for what i have read, not so good NAFTA, don't ask don't tell, etc. not so bad either, and the man does have great relationships with other countries. but hillary, let's not get started on that one.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

66. We don't have a veto proof majority. NT

nt

[EFerrari]

24. Maybe you need an eye exam.

Tell you what. You come out here and try to get a town hall with Pelosi and when you fail, get back to me and tell me what a hater I am.

[silverojo]

27. Democrats ALWAYS eat their own

Why are you surprised?

[EFerrari]

29. That's not true. Democrats are incredibly loyal

and make themselves into pretzels trying to understand the other guy's viewpoint.

Why would you want to promote such an idea?

[LeftCoast]

32. Maybe because he/she can read DU?

This place is becoming a cess pool of anti-Democratic hate. There is a significant difference between criticism and the outright character destruction that some are engaging around here. Those who engage in such activities are promoting the short term gain of promoting their cause or their candidate at the expense of the party as a whole.

[EFerrari]

33. DU is "becoming" no such thing.

We've had passionate posters here as long as I've read DU, anyway.

"Cess pool of anti-Democratic hate", my granny. Where does that hyperbole get you?

[LeftCoast]

35. You see all negative comments as criticism

I see a huge difference between criticism and the outright personal destruction that's been going on here.

Perhaps that's because I consider myself a Democrat and many here do not. I'm not sure. I have serious issues with some things that various Democrats are doing, but since I'm a Democrat, I'm not going to tear down my party. I'm going to point out specific issues, discuss alternatives, etc.

I don't even know how else to try to explain this concept. I just see the behavior around here as self-destructive and far from helpful.

[EFerrari]

36. How do you know how I see "things"?

It's going to be a long year. We may want to consider that.

[LeftCoast]

37. Um, cuz you just told me how you see things in the post I replied to?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

38. You may be right.

I contested the idea of some Golden Age of DU which never existed and I disputed the hyperbole used to describe our current traffic.

[LeftCoast]

39. I agree there was no great 'Golden Age' of DU

However, in the last 6-9 months though, the anti-Dem rhetoric has been greatly amplified.

I am probably more sensitive to this because I originally came to DU to get away from all the anti-Democratic spin I saw on the media and online. Ever tried to use the Yahoo message boards? Vomit-city.

It is incredibly frustrating to me because I truly believe it is harmful to our shared goals here on DU. Again, I don't believe Dems are perfect. In fact, far from it. I just choose to be constructive rather than destructive in how I address my concerns.

[EFerrari]

40. People honestly expressing their concerns are not destructive.

Or, they are "destructive" in a useful way. That's precisely how we get a handle on what our problems are, how we broach them and do better.

The trolls and related cr@p are something else again.

The challenge of DU is figuring out how to tell the difference between these two really different things.

lol

[LeftCoast]

41. I wish people would at least try to be more constructive

I think it's really easy to get trapped in a self-defeating cycle of negativity. Thinking about it though, I suppose it's easy to see how the last 6 or 7 years could lead one to a negative outlook on life. :)

[EFerrari]

77. That's a good point. Seven years of toxicity.

A couple of times this week, I've caught myself being belligerent for no reason (as I was on this thread), and it surprised me that I didn't even notice till later. Habits R Us.

[kenfrequed]

74. Well let me see

I may be just be spitballing here, but aren't we moving into what we call Primary Season?

You know if I had a nickle for every concern-troll that comes on here deriding the 'negativity' I would at least be able to buy all of my friends pizza, every week.

Spare this nonsense please. There is no point to it. We are fighting because we all believe we know what kind of government we want and who we want running it. We are fighting when we see our own party sometimes bending over backwards to accede to the wishes of the very people we put them in there to oppose.

Don't spit on me and ask me 'why I don't like the rain?'

[kenfrequed]

75. and that Democrats are being negative again...

Is the load of crap that I can get if I hated myself enought that I would decide to tune in to Tucker Carlson. I don't need my own party telling me that I am being negative.

[jpgray]

51. I have to agree. It crosses the line from criticism into mindless, irrational bashing quite a bit

I can see where the bashers's frustration is coming from, but we'd all be better off if we put that frustration in less combative, absolute, ugly terms.

[EFerrari]

69. Maybe I just don't "hear it" as much any more.

Hmm.

[rooboy]

34. DU has always been against the DLC - not unusual at all. n/t

[OzarkDem]

50. Doesn't have anything to do with DLC

They're a mess all unto their own. They need to stop trying to ride on the coattails of a good Dem president whose accomplishments had little to do with DLC's archaic policies.

[DeSwiss]

44. Its called, "FREEDOM OF SPEECH"

If you don't like what's on the teevee news, you turn the another channel. Don't like a newspaper, don't buy it, but write a LTTE and tell them they suck anyway. Don't like what someone says in a forum thread, then go to another one. Don't like trolls, don't feed them and they go away. Or stay and toy with them, if that's you thing.

But if you're looking for someplace where everyone marches in lockstep with what a politician does or says, then you have to try the Republicans. Democrats have the biggest tent and there's a reason for that. We need the room to fight each other for what we believe in. In the end, we compromise and close ranks. But before all that, it can get ugly. And you know the old saying about politics and sausage....

If people go overboard with their rhetoric because they're passionate about what they believe, then so be it. That's the price of democracy. And that's also better than the stale, dry-ass, brain-dead Repukes any day. They haven't had an original idea since Teddy thought of the national parks. And he had to shove that down his own people's throats as it was.

This is how the Dems have always worked in my almost 56 years of watching them do it. And its what makes us better than Repukes in the end. Because when its all said and done, we know we fought the good fight. Win or lose. Any candidate we field that has been through the ranks of the Dem party, will be tested and tried by fire. We burn off the impurities, so there is a method to this madness after all.

Hillary may or may not win in the end. But its a long way to November. And she'll have to do it without my support. I haven't finalized upon whom I'm going to support as yet, but I've eliminated 2 for certain. She was one of them. But if she makes it to the end, then I'll cast my ballot for her. But I don't have to like her policies, nor the people who are backing her. And people have a right to say this, whether it sounds hateful or not, its their opinion and no one has a right to even ask that this be squelch. That's the Republican way of operating.

And Hillary is for certain one thing. She's DLC. And the DLC is anti-Progressive. And the DLC is NOT the Democratic Party, no matter how much they might think that they are.....

[sendero]

55. Hear hear..

.... this is a freaking message board. Until such time as I am kicked off, I will state what I think and relate what I feel.

Anyone considering my thoughts stupid or feelings irrational are entitled to their opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

Yes I am angry. The first time in a long time a Dem has an advantage going into the pres election and we have to nominate a person who will not make things much better even if she does win.

After 7 years of Bush, it is enough to make one sick.

[bigwillq]

56. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[Individualist]

81. "DLC is NOT the Democratic Party,..."

:applause:

They're a subversive organization, and they know they're not the Democratic Party.

Let's just look at the cold, hard facts about the DLC and its record. The DLC has pushed, among other things, the war in Iraq and "free" trade policies, using bags of corporate money to buy enough Democratic votes to help Republicans make those policies a reality. They have chastised anyone who has opposed those policies as either unpatriotic or anti-business -- even as a majority of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq, oppose the DLC's business-written trade deals, and are sick of watching America's economy sold out to the highest corporate bidder. Additionally, in brazenly Orwellian fashion, the DLC has also called its extremist agenda "centrist," even though polls show the American public opposes most of their agenda, and supports much of the progressive agenda. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0727-32.htm

The progressive movement has not just threatened this message monopoly -- it is undoing it. Through MoveOn, the rise of popular documentaries, blogs, think tanks, etc. It's not just that we talk about real values and innovative strategies. It's because we're talking, period, that the centrists feel threatened.

Hence the DLC's vicious attempts to discredit the movement. And that's what they want. They don't seek to win an argument over policy. They seek to destroy the credibility of their opponents and restore their message monopoly. http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=721

This is why the DLC is dangerous. For all their claims of supposedly wanting to help Democrats, they employ people like Marshall Wittman who specifically try to undermine the Democratic Party, even if it means he has to publicly defecate out the most rank and easily-debunkable lies. They reguarly give credence to the right wing's agenda and its worst, most unsupportable lies. They are the real force that tries to make sure this country is a one party state and that Democrats never really challenge the Republicans in a serious way. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/why-the-dlc-is-so-dangero_b_13640.html

"The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative agenda," http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Kucinich_DLC_agenda_undistinguishable_from_Neocon_0813.html

DLC Watch, the wicked shall not escape justice http://dlcwatch.blogspot.com

Without a doubt, the DLC is the most fundamentalist organization within the caucus, the most ideologically rigid, and the most destructive to the progressive cause.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/5/24/1712/23448

These DLC types are amazing, they really are. Their pathology is unique; they all secretly worship the guilt-by-association tactics of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove, but unlike those two, not one of them has enough balls to take being thought of as the bad guy by the general public.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11275627/the_low_post_democrats_walk_themselves_to_the_gallows

[Perry Logan]

46. It's dumb. It lowers morale. It hurts us immensely. It helps the Republicans. It's lousy strategy.

And it's almost invariably based on misinformation.

[rucky]

48. Freeper behavior is:

Blind faith in bad leadership.

[OzarkDem]

49. Agree, very shocking

I'm not sure why or how Bill Clinton is suddenly being demonized. He was a very good president and regardless of how anyone feels about his wife's candidacy, its ridiculous to state that Clinton was a bad president.

Anyone who attacks him is just ruining their own credibility.

[renie408]

58. I find it odd that you are simultaneously 'Proud2BAmurkin' and against free speech.

This site isn't populated by drones. That would be the OTHER team. People here think for themselves and express those thoughts. Instead of jumping on the bandwagon of the candidate that the media has annointed for us, people here are taking a critical look at her. And at the Democratic leadership. I don't always agree, but I would never look to silence ANY criticism. Cause if we do that, we might as well become the GOP and that would be MUCH worse.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

67. I didn't say you should be arrested for trashing Democrats

I said this place seems like Freeper Underground lately

[yodermon]

59. Hey, at least we're hating from the Left. n/t

[Sufficient Voice]

60. Hey just because they F*@# us less the Republicans,

doesn't mean we got to love them. It only means we sometimes have to vote for them.

[rudy23]

62. Funny, I thought I stumbled onto Free Repuke from all the blindly loyal followers of our party

I thought only Freepers put party before country, and hated critical thinking, but apparently not.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. Awww..the poor widdle politicians are so fragile and need nuthin' but big hugs.

:nopity:

[sniffa]

64. *yawn*

i must have stumbLed into an enabLers thread.

you're doing a heckuva job peLosi.

:puke:

[LWolf]

65. Criticism isn't hate. That's hyperbole.

Attacking people you disagree with by slapping a derogatory label on them is something else entirely.

[hiphopnation]

68. and this thread aims to do what....

oh I See! throw *more* hate. well done!

i hope this dies a quick death...

[book_worm]

70. the truth is that DU isn't really (imo) a "Democratic" website--I think it's a progressive website

that is called Democratic underground. I think that there are a lot of people here who post who aren't democrats at all--they may hold their nose and vote for the Dem candidate as a lesser evil but there are Greens, Socialists and other independent progressives who make up a big part of the everyday poster on this site.

[HughBeaumont]

72. It's a disagreement.

Disagreement. We're allowed to disagree with Democrats unapologetically championing oil wars of choice, free trade, Big-Insurance-controlled health care and job offshoring.

We're allowed to disagree with continued funding of said oil wars.

We're allowed to disagree with Bill Clinton's stance on free trade. And his wife's.

Hatred is reserved for Repuke congressmen and Presidunce, who would rather blow up our soldiers in a useless oil war than give kids health care.

[RiverStone]

78. Respectfully and strongly disagree!

What makes us DIFFERENT from the Freepers is we DO NOT march in lock-step!

Believe me, almost all the criticism for recent Dem enabling and complicity is earned and warranted.

Our concerns will only serve to tune the message and ultimately, harden our collective resolve to stand for something as Democrats!

I don't see hate at all Proud2BAmurkin; I see huge levels of frustration for a Party most feel passionate about.

No worries, next fall - DU will close ranks in the General. But for now, the criticism is healthy and important. Ya know, if you can't stand the heat...

[dbt]

80. Hey, lay off. They all EARNED the hate.

Give it a rest, already.

:evilgrin:

[Individualist]

82. Supporting all elected party officials, right or wrong, is a repuke trait.

[Cha]

83. So Sorry if it Offends your

delicate sense of Decorum..next.

[Auntie Bush]

84. I said the same thing myself on a previous post.

It's hard sometimes to believe this is a Democratic forum. The hate expressed regarding our fellow Democrats is disgusting. I wonder sometimes what it was like here when Clinton was in office? I don't think I want to know either. Maybe this forum hadn't started yet. :shrug: