Demonizing immigrants is wrong approach

[proud2BlibKansan]

By BARBARA SHELLY

Jaywalkers of America: Be afraid, be very afraid.

This is a nation of laws. Never mind that your destination is directly across the street and there isn’t a vehicle in sight and you’ve been crossing without benefit of a traffic signal for years. Jaywalking is illegal, and what about that do you not understand?

The same goes for those of you who roll through intersections without fully stopping and who occasionally exceed the speed limit. Your day of reckoning is at hand.

Funny, I don’t see anybody quaking yet. And I’m still noticing rampant jaywalking in downtown Kansas City.

The United States is a nation of laws. It’s also a nation of common sense. People understand that violating a leash law isn’t the same as sticking somebody up with a handgun. That’s why one will get you a fine, at worst, and the other will land you in prison.

But this well of pragmatism runs dry when conversation turns to the question of what to do about the 12 million or so immigrants who arrived in this country illegally but have made a life here for themselves and their families.

more . . . http://www.kansascity.com/602/story/323543.html

[donheld]

1. I love it

Thank you for posting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. She's great

and she nails it with this. Glad you like it.

[zbdent]

3. so ... hiring illegal immigrants is illegal, too, right?

but that doesn't stop businesses which support Repukes, right?

It seems that laws don't seem to stop Republican-friendly businesses ...

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. The laws aren't being enforced

Employers are not being charged and fined as allowed under existing laws. We hear all about the human beings and their illegal activity while the real demons, the employers, are given carte blanche to break the law.

[pampango]

10. Exactly. It seems that many liberals are frustrated that big business,

which is the cause of the problem - no jobs = no immigrants, is "untouchable" on this issue. This underground economy has been in existence for decades and has become acceptable employment option for poor Hispanic workers.

If we could effectively force the immigrants' employers to follow the law thus getting a handle on the illegal immigration problem, we could treat poor immigrants as victims.

Instead, since we get tired of beating our heads against the wall of making employers comply with the law, some decide to go after the immigrants who have little political power or protection. They are a much easier target, even if they are not the root cause of the problem.

[pampango]

5. How about this? Anyone arrested for any crime has to be sent "home".

"Home" would have to be defined in enabling legislation. It would not, of course, necessarily be your current residence, but the place where you "belong".

My assumption would be that the perp would be transported in a police vehicle to the border of his/her yard and released. This would be cumbersome, morally questionable and expensive, but it would conform to the "rule of law (at least my new law once I get it passed).

If I am lucky, after after a period of time of implementing this thankfully hypothetical law, bad drivers and jaywalkers would self deport out of my jurisdiction. Problem solved. No more jaywalkers and "rolling stop" drivers. Another plus would be that with these miscreants gone, there are more jobs, with better wages, and housing opportunities for law abiding citizens. (Just kidding.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Sounds good to me

There is a 4 way stop by my house and about a third of the cars that go through that intersection don't know how to negotiate a 4 way stop. We are entertained by watching them drive right through that stop sign. But if they were picked up and 'deported', it would be even more entertaining.

And will they leave their cars there? We could use another vehicle at our house!

[mmonk]

6. You are correct. Fear, suspicion, and racism

are what this government is using and has been using to promote this police state substitute for the overthrow of our democracy. I haven't taken the bait though I know many in border ststes including DU'ers can get exercised about it. While there are certainly legitimate problems, the time is not now to address it while the country has been in a fascist shift.

[flashl]

7. This is timely ...

given the action taken in Prince William County yesterday to profile and deport immigrants.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. What happened?

I haven't heard about that.

[flashl]

19. Va. County OKs Illegal Immigrant Crackdown

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/17/national/printable3377011.shtml

After 12 hours of meeting and hearing emotional testimony, Prince William County supervisors voted to move forward with their contentious measure to deny services to illegal immigrants.

They postponed the matter of how to secure long-term funding for the plan, which includes allowing police to check the residency status of anyone arrested in the county and improve cooperation with federal immigration authorities.

More than 1,200 people packed the county government complex in Woodbridge and the streets outside last night - and about 400 signed up to address the supervisors during the public comment period.

As the meeting began, supporters and opponents of the measures scuffled in the street before police separated them.

Supervisors were supposed to vote on the restrictions two weeks ago, but put off the vote while they studied the county's budget situation.

The anti-illegal immigration resolution was first proposed in June, CBS affiliate WUSA-TV reports.

It calls for cuts to certain county services and prohibits undocumented residents from getting business licenses. The resolution also expands police authority allowing officers to ask people about their legal status.

Immigration supporters are concerned about the consequences of the police action and what will happen if people do not call police for help or to report a crime, WUSA reports.

The tension in Woodbridge came as officials in Virginia's Fairfax County and Richmond also turned their attention to illegal immigration yesterday, the Washington Post reported. Fairfax's county executive said he would begin studying which services might be restricted to illegal immigrants, and in Richmond, officials rejected a proposal to build a 1,000-bed detention center where illegal immigrants could be temporarily held for deportation, the Post reported.

Instead, the Virginia Crime Commission's immigration task force approved a proposal to give more money to local governments to house arrested illegal immigrants and to expand or build jails, the Post reported.

But the real drama was in Prince William, and it wasn't confined to the street. For hours yesterday afternoon and deep into the night, the podium belonged to residents, highlighting how visceral the issue has become. The list of speakers grew longer after the workday ended, as scores of Hispanic immigrants arrived to urge the supervisors to vote no, many speaking through translators, the Post reported. Children of immigrants, standing on stools, asked board members not to hurt their parents, according to the paper.

Others pointed out that illegal immigrants are breaking the law, the Post reports. "Where do you get off demanding services, rights and mandatory citizenship?" said Manassas resident Robert Stephens, addressing the large crowd of Hispanic residents, reported the Post. "Who invited you? You cry for your rights? You have none."

Police officials emphasize that they would not be conducting immigration sweeps or setting up checkpoints, as some have feared, and that it would take months to put the measures into practice. More than 500 county police officers would need to be trained in the nuances of federal immigration law. Yesterday's vote also approved the creation of a seven-officer Criminal Alien Unit that would work directly with federal immigration agents, the Post reported.

Legal experts say the county policies are untested in court. A group of 22 plaintiffs has filed a lawsuit against the county and its top officials in federal court seeking to block the measures, claiming that they violate equal protection laws and that immigration enforcement is a federal concern, the Post reported.

I do not think, anyone can not really appreciate the impact of the story if you haven't live in the area.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. That seems to be happening a lot of places lately

Reactionary at best. Not a well thought out strategy.

[flashl]

22. The makings of this story started years ago ...

when elitist Arlington, VA dumped thousands of their immigrant residents into the Woodbridge and Manassas area after rezoning and demolishing their homes. It was only a matter of time before those areas responded.

[mvccd1000]

11. The only problem with her analogy is that...

... if I break the law, I have no problem paying the penalty when I am caught.

I speed, I've paid speeding tickets and higher insurance.

I carry a pistol. I suppose if I were to get caught carrying it someplace where I'm not allowed to, I would expect to lose that privilege.

For some reason, though, we're expected to look the other way when illegal immigrants break the law.

I have no problem with immigration; I'm in favor of opening it up to allow more people in. I do have a problem with just forgiving people who flaunt our laws.

If I catch a felon in my house looting the place, do I have to just forgive him because he's only trying to make a better life for his family?

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. You are supposed to demand enforcement of the law

especially regarding employers who helped create this problem in the first place. While some demonize people, the real enemy is the business that breaks the law to hire them, and often helps them obtain the forged documents they need to work here for less (far less) than minimum wage.

[mvccd1000]

16. I hope Arizona's law survives the challenges - it goes after employers, not employees.

"Knowingly" hire an illegal immigrant, business license suspended for 10 days.

2nd offense, business license permanently revoked.

[WinkyDink]

12. Illegal. Look it up. BTW, don't think about jaywalking in post-Rudy NYC.

Stupid attempt at analogy, as if "jay-walking" puts a strain on our social services and educational systems.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Not the point

It is the illegal use of the word 'illegal' she is trying to point out with the larger picture being the wrong tactics and talking points fueling this debate.

What is really stupid is going after the wrong bad guys.

[SparkyMac]

15. Did the Nazis have the same right as Mexicans ?

But this well of pragmatism runs dry when conversation turns to the question of what to do about the 12 million or so immigrants who arrived in this country illegally but have made a life here for themselves and their families.

They are criminals, that's why. Using you logic as to rights of squatters, Germany could argue before the World Court that in 1940

"12 million or so Nazi troops who arrived in France illegally but have made a life here for themselves and their families."

And therefore they had the right to stay. That doesn't sound quite the same, does it ?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. You are really comparing Mexicans to Nazis???

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Well, technically he's not comparing mexicans to demons.

Therefore, it's not really demonizing.

:rofl:

[pampango]

21. Perhaps he is really just trying to provide a really outrageious example

of demonizing Mexicans. You know, kind of providing a concrete example of what the OP is talking about. That is actually quite helpful. :toast:

[SparkyMac]

31. I'm comparing criminals to criminals.

Some people will compare Jesse James to Al Capone and make Jesse look like an altruist. I don't make that mistake. A criminal is a criminal.

A Mexican here without permission is just as much a criminal as the guy who steals your car or burns your house down.

[EFerrari]

32. But less of a criminal than a government that subverts democracy

in Latin American countries. Think Kissinger and Pinochet. Or Reaguns and Nicaragua and El Salvador. Or Bush and Mexico, Costa Rica, Venezuela and Haiti.

Thinking in general is a good idea.

/ack

[SparkyMac]

35. I don't live in Latin America so I'm not a victim of those criminals.

I am a victim of crimes committed on American soil. All of us citizens are victims of both the Mexicans who come here without legal permission and of those criminals who hire them. The latter group is divided into two classes, both of whom should be punished. The manager of any company or corporation that hires an illegal Mexican should be put in prison. Anybody that hires an illegal to mow his grass should be horse-whipped and left laying on his lawn.

Fighting crime is not complicated. We must make the thugs fear society more than society fears them.

[EFerrari]

36. If you are a victim of "the Mexicans" I suggest you contact your

local District Attorney.

And if you think you're not a victim of the same policies that have been subverting democracy in Latin America, take a look around you and notice what has happened to labor in this county. Campesinos didn't do that. Your government did.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. No he is just as much a criminal as you are when you exceed the speed limit

C I V I L offense. Look it up.

[zbdent]

23. Wonder how many Repukes would be incarcerated if

the laws about extra-marital sex would be enforced in those infrared Repuke-heavy areas ... surely, there would be plenty of Dems, too ...

[Romulox]

24. You don't enforce jaywalking ordinances--you're a HYPOCRITE for enforcing homicide laws

Your argument obviously doesn't work when applied to any other crime besides identity theft/visa violations/illegal entry.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. It works when you compare two trivial crimes.

Except, technically, illegal immigration isn't a crime, it's civil law.

And secondly, jaywalking is worse, since it's unsafe.

[Romulox]

26. Then the argument is that you believe the crimes are trivial, not that selective enforcement

of one crime justifies another.

"Except, technically, illegal immigration isn't a crime, it's civil law."

Many of the activities associated with illegal immigration are indeed Federal criminal offenses, in particular identity theft, tax fraud, and re-entry after deportation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Yes. Some crimes are trivial.

Duh. That's why everybody, you included, committs them.

"Many of the activities associated with illegal immigration are indeed Federal criminal offenses"

Yes, and many of the activities associated with legal, native born citizens are indeed criminal offenses. Identity theft, tax fraud, jaywalking...

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Illegal immigration is a civil offense

It has nothing to do with anyone here thinking it is trivial. It is the way it is classified. Just like jaywalking or driving over the speed limit. Those offenses can have bad consequences as well. But they are still civil offenses.

[Hangingon]

29. I think there is a lot of myth in the immigration problem.

A lot of us think of the illegal immigrant as the farm workers who for decades came over to pick crops - work that supposedly we wouldn't do. And they did it for less. These were, in the main good, honest hard working people. For decades we talked about doing something about this - the bracero programs, etc.

Now it is different. First the numbers are overwhelming. Families are coming over and with them a demand for medical, social and educational services. There is an increasing percentage of criminals and gangsters in the illegal flow - MS-13 from Guatemala.

Employers were originally are large part of the problem and to an extent still are. Today, the employer has much less choice. Illegals who work for less have displaced american workers. If you want cement work done, tree and landscaping work, home repairs and many other services, the work is done by illegals. More and more, the employer is an illegal who - I don't know how - has established a business. The illegals are "contractors" - they are paid in cash at the end of the day. That means no withholding for social security or income tax. It also means there is no insurance.

It doesn't stop with the service industry. The houses being built in the development in the pasture behind my house are being built largely with illegal labor - displacing american painters and carpenters. The plumbing and electrical unions have been something of a barrier in those jobs but there are beginning to be exceptions.

Mexicans have come over the border to have children. Not just poor mexican peons but middle and upper class mexicans have "anchor" children. We provide great care and you can always skip out on the bill. Now, most of our county hospitals are bankrupt.

Not all these folks are poor people wanting a better life. Many are criminals. Drug problems are up. Gang wars - with drive by shootings and turf wars - are up. Home invasions, assaults, and business robberies are up. The driving without a license or insurance is a large problem. It is not uncommon for an illegal to simply leave the scene of the collision - simply walk away. As a result, the percentage illegals in the convict population is increasing.

The flow of illegals is reaching areas outside the Southwest. Apparently it is now being noticed in Virginia and other states. It is time that we sat down and found a real solution to the problem. Maybe now that the problem is expanding, we will.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. No they don't come for medical and social services

They come for J O B S.

[Hangingon]

39. Yes they come over for JOBS (shout it to the heavens)

Historically, they have also come over to bear children. The jobs they have come over for often don't carry insurance. So, the emergency rooms are being used. And the county hospitals are going bankrupty.

[EFerrari]

33. I love opportunities to whip out this link.

"The myth of immigrant criminality and the paradox of assimilation"

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_report/sr_022107.pdf

Why anyone believes that people are panting to leave their home and their community is just mind bending. We've created our own "problem" -- NAFTA, CAFTA, screwing with Latin American governments, union busting here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Thanks I love that link!

[Hangingon]

40. Anyone can "whip out" a cite that backs them up

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/03/illegal_aliens_have_higher_inc.php

[EFerrari]

42. Yes but mine is a legit study, not a right wing site as yours is. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. A link to a FAIR study?

Good grief, that's like getting research on the NAACP from the KKK.

[judaspriestess]

why is it always only the "Mexcuns"?

this never ceases to amaze me and its truly beyond an ignorant generality. anyway,

Many of these immigrants are working with TAX ID's from the IRS who happily gives them the ID number to collect taxes and they can use that in place of a social security number(invented or stolen) to get hired. All they do is go down to the IRS office and file a W-7 form. IRS agents(IE the government) are eagerly waiting to take their information. Lets not be so naive in thinking the government is missing out on collecting those taxes.

Doesn't justify them coming here illegally but to believe that ALL these immigrants don't pay taxes and are hurting the system etc are just false. Most of them actually have health insurance through the workplace.

[EFerrari]

38. It's in part because the Democrats seem to be always reacting

to Republican talking points, which is unfortunate in some ways.

Have you ever listened to those Washington Journal callers, frothing at the mouth, about how we are being invaded and Mexicans use up all our resources and won't assimilate and are taking our jobs and it just gets really scary. Especially when you know that Mexican culture is one of the most gentle, hardworking, family and community oriented cultures in the world. :shrug:

Especially when you know the reality of the economics and the fact that all those undocumented workers ADD to our economy, they do not subtract.

It's craziness and meant to fuel the bigoted RW base. It has, too. Very efficiently.

In my world, if we are being invaded by "the Mexicans", I'd find a way to legalize them and register them asap because they largely vote for Democrats. But, I'm a little nuts on this topic. :)

[judaspriestess]

34. why is it always only the "Mexcuns"?

this never ceases to amaze me and its truly beyond an ignorant generality. anyway,

Many of these immigrants are working with TAX ID's from the IRS who happily gives them the ID number to collect taxes and they can use that in place of a social security number(invented or stolen) to get hired. All they do is go down to the IRS office and file a W-7 form. IRS agents(IE the government) are eagerly waiting to take their information. Lets not be so naive in thinking the government is missing out on collecting those taxes.

Doesn't justify them coming here illegally but to believe that ALL these immigrants don't pay taxes and are hurting the system etc are just false. Most of them actually have health insurance through the workplace.

[ThomCat]

43. I can't believe that there are this many posts already and I'm

the 5th recommendation. Off to the greatest page. This needs many more recommendations and much more attention!

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Thanks Thom

Tough topic.

[EFerrari]

46. Kick