If you had no job and no money would you move to a place where you could find a job?

[SoCalDem]

Would you leave your family & friends behind to find work somewhere else?

Maybe your $7 an hour job in Kentucky is not "cutting it" for you and your family. Your town has no hospital, no library, the schools suck, and there's no work that pays enough to live on..

What if you heard that you could get work in another place , where $14 an hour was the norm..would you go?

Once you arrive in $14hr-ville, you realize that it also costs a lot more to exist there, but you can make do by cutting corners, and you spent all the money you had just to GET there anyway.

The thing you did not plan on was the fact that the people who are already in $14hr-ville are a little pissed at YOU for taking a job that some of them would have liked to have, so you are not warmly welcomed.. and they all think you "talk funny"..

But hey.. a job's a job, and YOUR kids need to eat too. Once you are settled & have a little saved up, you will send for your wife/husband/kids..and maybe grandma & grandpa too.

People only have ONE life, and they will do WHATEVER it takes to make that life as livable as possible..no matter who they are.

People will take advantage of ANY opportunity to make their family's life better. Rich folks have done this FOREVER.

They have exploited their workers so they could keep as much money as possible for themselves.

They have sent their factories overseas so they could make as much money as possible.

Migration/Immigration is the "poor man's way to get ahead". They are upwardly mobile by MOVING themselves, instead of moving their money, like rich people do. The ONLY asset they have is the body they inhabit..the body that does the labor.

When labor is all you have to offer, you go where you can get paid the most for that labor. For a poor Kentuckian, that may be moving to California or Washington state or even Virginia.

For a Mexican or Central American, it's ANYWHERE in the US.

Underemployed people in the US would probably NOT move to Mexico to look for work, but I'm guessing that a LOT of them WOULD go to Canada..if they COULD.

What's stopping them?

Canada ENFORCES their workforce laws and does not allow people to work there or access services unless they are citizens (and can PROVE it).

We have created the problem we live with now, because we refuse to identify ourselves as citizens, and at the same time, we pretend to be magnanimous in our delivery of services to all. We do it grudgingly though ,as if every shot given to another's child, every schoolbook given to another's child, every job occupied by someone not fluent in English, is money from our own checking account.

People come here because they CAN..

It's just as simple as that.

Until employers' feet are held to the fire, undocumented people will always come, and no matter how many laws we have, they will still come...whether we want them to or not.

Would they come here if they could NOT work, and had NO services available to them?

Would YOU?

[Blaze Diem]

1. Great Post. Such a touchy issue though. I find it difficult to reply

to anything immigrant related, since someone always manages to pick apart my post and demand I be removed from DU society.

There are so many parts to immigration and one must realize that fear is a basis of many.
Until the fears are addressed and found a solution to, there will always be reason to stand firm in a pro or con belief. Note that many of these fears are valid.

Appreciate your take on this subject and I agree that when the demand is not there, the supply will subside or look elswhere for its survival.

When our own Federal govt, back away from the State's need for assistance, it narrows the equation down to a man-against-man mentality.

Survival on both sides.

[Blue_In_AK]

2. I did.

I moved from California to Alaska in 1975 for just that reason, to find work -- the best move I ever made.

ed. Of course, Alaska is not another country, so it doesn't exactly fit with your premise.

[SoCalDem]

5. We have done it many times..

Kansas>Indiana>Kansas>Colorado>NewMexico>California

By "accidents" of birth , we were born US citizens, so no one ever challenged us.

[Blue_In_AK]

8. Agreed.

I posted in haste before I read your entire post and got your drift. That's why I edited. Moving to another country would be a whole other matter.

[SoCalDem]

9. Actually Alaska IS kind of foreign..

and you are very "cut off" from the lower-48 :) and with Ted Stevens & his crew representing you, ..well.... need I say more :scared:

[Blue_In_AK]

22. And we can't get a lot of stuff shipped up here

and even if companies will ship here, they charge us more for shipping than the actual item costs ("free shipping except to Alaska and Hawaii"). Even eBay sellers who are sending stuff U.S. mail charge us more even though we pay the same postage. IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT, DAMMIT!

(And one more caveat on the moving to Alaska thing -- in the interests of full disclosure -- my parents and little brothers had already been here for six years when I moved here, so they actually were the ones who moved to the "foreign country" with no family or friends. :) )

[Horse with no Name]

3. The immigration problem could be solved but BOTH sides use it to their advantage

HEAVY fines/seizure of assets to businesses would be the MOST effective in stopping the hiring.
I cannot blame someone for wanting to eat, and if our chow line is open and he can find a place, I welcome him to the table.

[1000evorlrak]

33. Do you blame a business.....

that is otherwise reputable for taking a chance on a person they have no realistic way of knowing is in the US illegally?

[Horse with no Name]

36. Yes.

Because I know that MOST of these businesses factor in immigration fines. How else do you explain them paying them lower wages?

[1000evorlrak]

37. Not all business's do this...

Also remember, average Joe businessman does not have a good way to verify if Jose's green card is real or not. Further Joe can't refuse to hire Jose on that basis, Jose would have a lawsuit then.

If Joe is paying the same wage no matter what, he isn't the bad guy. The system needs an overhaul and, unfortunately, some time in the dry dock to make it right.

[SoCalDem]

38. If employers had to post a bond on all hired employees, they would find a way

to check more carefully.. If the state levied say a $10K bond ...refundable when they pass muster, employers would be more careful :)

[1000evorlrak]

47. This may not...

be something you would want to do. This would be an onerous burden to the small business's and a tax write off to the corporations. Not exactly what we are looking for.

[SoCalDem]

49. Legal employees...bond comes back.. illegal...jail time & forfeiture of bond..

It's quite simple.. If you have legal employees, there's no worry..

[riderinthestorm]

50. $10,000??!! As a small business owner, I can't tell you the last time I had $10k laying around

for any reason.

I operate on the thinnest margin and if I had an extra $10,000 that would be a miracle in my business (agriculture). At this point we are so lean, I take no salary at all. The farm pays the mortgage, pays for our own sporthorses, grows healthy food, and pays for itself. Period. I never have "extra". I mean, small farmer here. WTF? Every day I go to work, I just think: "people pay MONEY for aerobic exercise like this.. and look, you get to do this backbreaking work for free!"

When I hire, I ask for SS cards, driver's licenses and green cards. I dutifully make copies and check the us gov website but the numbers always are "good". So who's fault is it that Jose is using a stolen SS #?

Now you are going to make this the small farmers' fault?! (or drywaller, or roofer, or landscaper or....) And that somehow WE - the ones who can least afford it - must come up with that kind of money as some kind of surety when the us gov can't even track whose got a legit number now??!!!

That's just a recipe for ME to get fucked. Sorry but I object.

Look, Jose may be illegal but I am up for a major lawsuit if I challenge him and he IS valid. The system is broken beyond employers. I resent being made to be the bad guy here when we are doing everything we can to ensure we have legal employees. Pulling more cashola outta me won't solve this problem.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

45. absolutely

did you know that the US Gov. has had a website up for almost 10 years that lets any employer check SS#'s for validity? I do, I used it myself when hiring people.
The new law that takes effect in Jan. requires that employers use that same site to check out new employees.

We don't have an illegal immigration problem per se, we have an illegal employer problem.

[1000evorlrak]

46. It's problematic....

It verifies that a SSN is good, but does not necessarily attach it to a person, if I handed my employer a SSN of 932-37-4328, and it checked out, he would hire me despite the fact that the SSN supplied is not mine and completely false. This is because the IRS and the Social security information are prevented from sharing information.

[riderinthestorm]

51. Thank you for pointing this out.

As I ranted up thread, this is exactly the point.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

60. Actually no, it does match it against the name

If the name reported by the employee is not exactly the same as the records, it alerts on it. I know this because we had one alert for mis-spelled middle name.

[AZBlue]

53. But they do have a way to know.

There's a database all business owners have access to that lists everyone with a legal SS#.

So, yes, I do hold them accountable.

[riderinthestorm]

57. I am a small S corp.

I run all my employees' numbers and they are all "legal". This summer, the woman who cleans my stalls applied for my sponsorship (and she had a SS# that checked out when the us gov.org site came up online). She's been in the states for more than 20 years on a stolen number (working for me) - her parents brought her up from Mexico as a minor. She's got an attorney, a husband willing to work through the system (and HIS resources to ensure she will succeed), and a willing employer that will sponsor her. Should I fire her? Report her to INS? Wait it out until this Admin and/or future Admins decide what to do?

Problem is: she cleans stalls. Do you think she will qualify as some kind of "necessary, specialist" worker - a type of job that no American would be able to fill? Even though she's been with me for more than 20 years? Even though she has 2 children born here in the US? Even though I can't tempt ANY American to do this job, even at the $15/hour wage she makes (trust me, I've tried to get cheaper labor - she knows this and understands this, and absolutely knows that Americans won't shovel shit for $15/hour, no bennies.) Please know that I have scads of American middle class people willing to go to bat for her to stay in the States in this position - my boarders would go over the moon for her to stay in the US, and I feel hog-tied.

She wants to go to college. In fact, she qualifed for a full ride to Loyola University in Chicago but didn't dare take it without legal documents.

But. No way. In your view, she is illegal and needs to go back even though she came in to the States as a 12 year old.

It's a grey area. Especially for those of us in Agriculture who have long-standing ties to the Mexican communities that sustain us. I perceive of these people as family. It breaks my heart we can't work it out.

This isn't entirely an employer driven problem. This girl/woman checks out legally. But she's not. Now I know. And now you know her story. Do we boot her out? I say no way. And I am trying to prevent that. But odds are against me. Odds are she/I will lose and she will be deported once she tries to go legal. And I will be heavily penalized.

Do you think I will do this again? Or just try to keep it all under the table?

[EFerrari]

4. People come here from Latin America

because our government has made a policy of screwing with democracy there -- inconvenient democracy that objects to being strip mined and enslaved.

See John Pilger: "The War on Democracy".

People do not come here because they "CAN". People come here because your government and mine has done their best to force them out of their homes.

[SoCalDem]

6. because they CAN and NEED to..

That's the sad truth.. :(

[EFerrari]

10. You know, I've met very few undocumented people that didn't

yearn for their home, for their community. :(

[SoCalDem]

My Cuban grandparents died, longing to go back to Havana.. to be buried there

they never made it :(

[EFerrari]

20. I'm so sorry. My grandparents are buried in El Salvador.

Papi got a atate funeral. Mami we took back after many years. I can't imagine what life here was like for them and I know if they have an opinion, they're happy to be home. :hug:

[SoCalDem]

21. Mine are buried in Miami, but their children are both dead now

and their grandchildren are scattered across the US, so they will remain together in death..in Miami (which neither of them liked at all)

[Bluerthanblue]

16. that made me

cry ;(

You are so right- and it isn't only "undocumented" folks.
My dear friends are leaving to move south next week- looking for a less bleak situation, job for husband etc. The young woman has become like a daughter to me, her kids like Grandkids- they are refugees from Africa. Struggling to make their way in this strange land.

We spent several hours together talking the other day. She and her husband spoke openly of how much they missed home. How alone they expect to feel yet again. They have promised each other they will go back home when they retire. There aren't any nursing homes there. (she worked in housekeeping at one). I wish i had a magic wand, or ruby slippers that could make it all ok.- for everyone.

We need to walk in each others shoes more often, and more realisticly.
The OP is excellent.
If we can't care about each other- we are really doomed.

peace~

[EFerrari]

23. So true, Blue.

The Republicans keep raising this spectre of hungry invading hordes.

The majority of those people just want to be home. Home. Where their relatives are and their friends and the culture that loved them into adulthood.

[Bluerthanblue]

7. Wow. Excellent Post-

thank you for this.

You put it into "everymans" terms.


:hi:
peace~

[SoCalDem]

30. Thanks.. we are all "everyman" until we form groups

:scared:..then we become an angry mob fit for NO man (or beast) :cry:

[AlCzervik]

11. we did twice.

Mass to Texas, Texas to California.

[ThomCat]

12. 5th Recommendation. Of to the Greatest Page.

Very well said. For all the complaining about immigration, the system works exactly the way our corporations and lawmakers want it to.

[SoCalDem]

15. Yep.. If corporations are "people" then should they be "allowed"

to just "move away" across any border, and yet the actual real people cannot? hmmm :)

[antigop]

19. because we have globalization of capital, not globalization of labor

Try moving to India to get one of those tech jobs...

[BlackVelvet04]

13. We lived about 7 miles from the Mexican Border.....

and loved the area but we couldn't make a decent living so we moved first to Tucson (salaries aren't great there either) and then back to the east coast. We tripled our income and the cost of living is lower. Can't beat that.

[Richard Steele]

14. K&R

[skids]

17. I didn't.

I stuck it out. Of course, I had money, because I saved it, instead of mortgaging myself into debt slavery.

[SoCalDem]

18. Bueno

:P

[bunkerbuster1]

24. Of course I would. Survival dictates it.

Excellent, thought-provoking, uncomfortable post. Thank you.

[SoCalDem]

31. Thanks..

I did not mean for it to be uncomfortable..just though provoking..

Borders are tricky

[catmandu57]

25. I already tried it

Way back in the eighties when st. ronnie started fucking things up, the rust belt was going belly up and spreading across the country. I tried Ca for a while, I never could adapt, things worked for a while in Ok, but it was just too redneck. So, I came back here where i had family support. Now, I'm stuck here, there aren't any streets paved with gold, not here, not there. I can understand someone thinking that things will be better somewhere else, if it works for them cool.

[The Inquisitive]

26. I'd move to the mid 1990's

that's probably your best option.

[SoCalDem]

27. Better get busy building one of these

[The Inquisitive]

28. That's the model I'm currently working with

For some reason it isn't working. I'm pretty sure it needs more gold trim, and random toggles, and switches, and one of those spinning black and white spirals.

[Bake]

29. I would. In fact, I did.

Bake

[1000evorlrak]

32. It's a difficult situation.

I support enforcement of our country's laws and the removal of all of the current illegal immigrants. Not because they look funny or speak in some strange language, but because the current system is not fair to anyone. Employers, employees, Americans, and foreigners, all get hurt by this out of whack system.

I understand the problem many Latin Americans face. I have spent a decent amount of time in their countries. It is the social order they have down in their own countries that hurt them the worst. Many are supposedly socialist, but all it means is that the rich get to decide who among the poor is to be "rewarded" and allowed to be middle class, so long as they lick the boots of the rich.

Mexico is a prime example. They had a "socialist revolution" around 1910. It has resulted in now about 88 families forming an elite clique in Mexico who own literally everything. The average Mexican farmer wakes up and goes to work land that he pays a rent on, but will never own, if he stays he will have nothing to give to his kids. A Mexican-Indian girl growing up outside of Mexico City has little hope of doing well in school and going to college to become (we'll say a doctor, here), if she stays. The same will be true of any daughter or sons she has, if she stays. That's why I'm saying I understand their motivations, for coming here.

US employers have an honest to goodness employee problem. They really are having trouble finding enough workers, and technological innovation isn't covering the employee gap yet. So if a man comes looking for work and he has real looking documents, it's probably worth the risk to hire him. Of course, the unscrupulous realize he is an illegal and then seek to exploit him. The woman may have it worse, men don't wind up in brothels as often as a women do.

To the average man on the street, he doesn't think about it until he sees hundreds of thousands of illegals marching down the street. Then he gets angry at all these people who come here, don't learn the language, and then demand rights that aren't theirs to demand. It isn't necessarily right, just the way it is.

We need to get control of our immigration, to control the unscrupulous and criminal elements involved. As well as to meet our needs in regards to labor. This doesn't have to be completely dispassionate, we can still look at family reunification issues.

We also need to pressure the Latin American countries to make real changes in their systems. A mexican farmer should be able to own the land he works. There is no reason a mexican-indian girl should not be able to challenge herself and become a doctor, but as it is now they do not and can not.

[Lars39]

34. I had my grandfather in mind when I started reading this...

I thought you were describing what occurred during the Depression and for a long time afterwards.

[ileus]

35. Welcome to WV in the 80's

I'd move in a heartbeat, I'm not about to live on the backs of other people for very long. I lose my job this week I'll have one next week wherever I have to go.

[mvccd1000]

39. I did. And I did it without breaking the law.

Immigrants who come here legally should be welcomed with open arms.

Criminals who show no compunction about breaking our laws should not be allowed here.

[Swamp Rat]

40. Only wherever I can get red hot spicy crawfish

which is where I already am... Now if only there were jobs here that paid above slave wages.

[SoCalDem]

41. For the life of me.. I will never understand how anyone

can eat a crawdad :puke:

[Swamp Rat]

42. We eat a lot of other critters too.

Like alligator andouille sausage, frogs, snapping turtles, nutrea... well, I personally don't eat nutrea, but I may have to someday.

[SoCalDem]

43. Never had any of those either.. eeew..

Is it too wet for chickens down there :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

44. LOL!

No, but the thought of eating chickens disgusts me. :D

Eating cows and chickens, GROSS! :puke:

... but I love softshell crab and oysters. :9

We Creoles are differn't than da rest of da USA, cher. ;)

[riderinthestorm]

52. That fucker looks like he is sucking that baby right up!

I have never commented on your excellent photoshops before but this is as good a time as any to give you a calling out for some work that has provoked laughs, tears and provocative thought.

Thanks Swamp Rat! :hug:

[Swamp Rat]

54. Thank you

:hug:

www.swamp-rat.com

Here's a new one:

[Breeze54]

55. Awesome pic!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:D

[Breeze54]

48. I've done that at least three times; so

Yes! I would move to where the jobs are!

Actually been considering a move out-of-state again, for that reason. ;)

[Dewlso]

56. Fat Chance of getting those laws passed

The current admin (bushco) will NEVER sign laws that hold businesses accountable for illegal immigrants, and the remaining repugnants in congress will never go along with the bill to make it veto proof.

You bring up a very valid point. Its not a problem with the illegals themselves rather than a problem with the people and corporations that hire them. There should be legislation holding these corporations accountable for illegals working at their company. One suggestion would be to not only levy a huge fine on the corporation but also add a MANDATORY minimum prison sentence (say 2 years in FEDERAL PRISON) to the CEO and President of said company. This would work as a deterrent for these companies hiring/luring illegals here. If you take away the reason they come over here illegally they will leave on their own, but all this talk is just wishful thinking. There is not a chance in hell to get our government to hold corporations responsible (for anything).

[Rosemary2205]

58. I would never commit a crime for a job.

If they ever make it illegal for me to work outside my own community, or state, or country then I'll figure out a way and work my ass off to keep a roof over my head legally AND fight like hell to open up legal avenues for earning more income.

And if I was ever homeless I would not move in my neighbor's house against their will and tell them they owe me because I have no better place to go. That's just rude.

[Fleshdancer]

59. Thank you

This has always been my take on the issue.

I'm from Texas. Undocumented workers are a norm here for certain industries and throughout my life, I've had the opportunity to meet several of them. When you're a child, you play with other kids and don't worry about where their parents come from or why. Looking back though, I can tell you that kids of undocumented workers are just as loved and cared for as most people here (and more than some after reading a few sad stories). Like all parents, it's instinctive to try to give your offspring the very best advantage you can. Now that I'm grown and a parent myself, how could I ever fault someone for that? How can anyone fault a parent for trying to give more than they had? On the flip side, imagine your parents wanting less for you than what they had. Does that make any sense? It shouldn't.

When I was 19, I had a job located in a strip mall (which is basically what most of TX is becoming unfortunately). As usual, the company in charge of the grounds keeping for the strip mall hired undocumented workers. After meeting one of the workers, I found out that the employer was paying less than the agreed upon hourly rate. When the workers complained, the employer threatened to call immigration. He also told them that if they quit, he would call immigration. Even though he was the asshole hiring workers illegally, he knew he wouldn't get in trouble for it. He was paying less than minimum wage and threatening workers who, at the time, thought they would go to prison if they got caught. They thought this because this is what the employer told them. It wasn't slavery because they were being paid something, but I know it wasn't humane.

So many people look at undocumented workers as the enemy but I can't and won't. If there is anyone to point fingers at, point them at the employer who exploits the undocumented workers they do have and turn away the documented workers they refuse to pay. When you realize they don't get in trouble for their actions, then feel free to point the finger at the politicians who made that possible.

Oh, and extra food for thought: Bush attempted oil companies in TX in the 80's...you really think he did that without undocumented workers? Really?