New Perspective on the Stark Truth....

[MagickMuffin]

Don't get me wrong I was a bit disturbed by the Democrats making Stark apologize. It made me think, here they go again caving into the Reich-Wing hysteria of forcing the Democrats to play nice, to make them back down, to hold them over a barrel, etc, etc.

But then I started thinking about a new perspective on the situation, and how it might play into the next term elections. What I decided to think is perhaps this could actually backfire on the Reich-Wing by them always demanding an apology, and the Democrats always "doing the right thing" by apologizing it makes the Democrats look like they are the grown-ups, the mature adults, while the Reich-Wing NEVER apologize, and it makes them look childish, small and petty.

Haven't you ever felt like someone should apologize for something they might have done to you sometime in your life???
And when that person apologized didn't you have a certain amount of respect for that person???

So, maybe people will see the Democrats as the grown-ups, the party that deserves respect while the Reich-Wing who never apologizes makes them really look weak and pathetic.

Anyway, that is what I hope would happen.

It all depends on how the media wants to us to think, since that is how most people get their info and don't venture out as much as they should.

Just food for thought, on another way to look at things. I hope it makes sense to some of you.

Do I need a flame suit???

[AndyA]

1. Of course, you're assuming that people will actually *THINK* about these things.

Thinking is difficult to do when you're addicted to the Kool-Aid, which is the result of not thinking in the first place.

[Didereaux]

2. Kool-Aid? Did you say Kool-Aid....

Seems another shipment arrived.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/12461951@N03/1387608676/

[zeemike]

4. Oooooh Haw

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MagickMuffin]

5. I would hope that there are some thinking people among us ;=D

or at least I would hope there are quite a few who do think for themselves. The ones who aren't thinkers are Reich-Wingers anyway, so perhaps the other swing voters would see the difference.

But who knows this country is in a Fooked up place right now and I sometimes lose hope. However, I would hope the Democrats would learn to approach things differently.

Such as whenever they are on the media shows where they are having to defend their votes not getting very far, and making the Democrats as losers are not doing what they were voted in office for in '06. Here's the message I wish they would use.

In the 109th congress we had Rubber Stamp Repubkicons. In the 110th congress we have Road Block Republicons.

That talking point would say a lot. It's smart and exactly to the point.

Sure the Dems can't get anything passed. That's exactly what Grover Red Rover Norquist instructed the Republicons to do. He told them to make sure they voted NO on every bill.



So, if nothing gets passed it's the responsibility of the Democrats to point this out. Like I mentioned above.

[zeemike]

3. We should consider the bright side

After all it is possible.

[hatrack]

6. No flame suit needed, but . . .

Most people aren't mature adults. Most people aren't grown-ups. Most people tend to be petty, vengeful and stunted.

Sadly, as a friend of mine once said, "Most of the people I see and work with every day stopped growing emotionally in eighth grade" - and I'm afraid he was mostly right.

[MagickMuffin]

7. I think your friend has insight

But I just keeping thinking about ALL the people I saw at Kerry Rallies, and ALL the people who marched in the '04 RNC convention. Even though those people might be emotional stunted, but one never knows without talking to them to see where they are coming from. Talking with people will also give one perspective on how they think and even if they think at all.

Time will tell I suppose:shrug:

[Fresh_Start]

8. public relations 101 - if you are caught doing something stupid

apologize quickly so it (controversy) will die out

[MagickMuffin]

10. Even when we agree with the sentiment

if the Reich-Wing screams for blood, I still think it makes them look like the whiners and the party that always demand apologies yet fail time after time to do the same thing.

The Democrats don't seem to get to have the media mouthpiece to voice their concerns. When they do get the chance they should point out how they are the party that takes responsibility while the Repubkicons never own up to their hateful language and never apologize. It would show the public that the party with responsibility is the Democratic Party.

[Swamp Rat]

9. Just more proof that only refucklicans do not have to take responsibilty for anything they do or say

[MagickMuffin]

11. Exactly, they never EVER apologize, which I think is a VALUE they obviously don't understand

which is why I hope this will eventually back fire. A girl can dream....

[Swamp Rat]

12. LOL! I love Grover's codpiece.

:D :applause:

[MagickMuffin]

15. Thx SR, it's an ALL American codpiece

:hi:

Of course that's a pretty scary pic of Ghouliani. Have you considered making it into a Halloween mask. Talk about scaring the children.:rofl:

[boston bean]

13. Problem is, the minute you apologize for things that you shouldn't

be apologizing for you are giving creedence to their argument and they appear correct in their condemnation.

And secondly, the repugs are bull dogs and never really accept an apology. Expect them to use all these condemnations and apologies in 2008.

It's a shame our democratic leaders can't figure that out.

[MagickMuffin]

14. There is a huge problem with the our leadership, mainly the DLC

they have taken over the party and think they own it. We liberals/progressives need to give them daily reminders if necessary. We definitely need them to quit being scared by the "bull dogs" since their bark is far worse than their barks.

But I'm still hoping that this will back fire on the republicons.

[Hidden Stillness]

16. Possible Suggestions

I have also been thinking that possibly this sad spectacle might turn the tide, (or, A tide), and make people for once notice the unending meanness and lying attack of the organized Republican Congressional approach, and I first started to feel it when Stark began to almost cry, at the end of the forced apology. I started thinking, "God, these fucking brutal Republican pricks--now, they're taking nice, gentle old Pete Stark's face, shoving it in the shit, making Stark apologize for it--like drunken Cheney's shooting victim--and making Stark break down; Burn in Hell." Then I started wondering if maybe that wasn't a clever spin on Stark's part: you people are forcing me to do this, and you are going to get the result of it, too. This may repulse people as to Republican tactics, as if "beating an old person and showing no compassion," and so I think there may be a hopeful angle to this.

Further, what I think Democrats should do from now on, for a while, is not run away from conflict (as Republicans will not let you) and crawl, but instead call attention to this tactic, over and over, until it takes the shock out of it, and maybe neutralizes it for a while. Remember, Republicans do not care if they destroy the Federal or State governments--they are trying to, as they turn it all corporate. Therefore, for example, the next time a Republican--and they have pulled this multiple times, with Democrats caving every time--claims to have been "shut out of a conference," or etc., when they had a chance to offer Amendments but refused or deliberately offered Amendments to inappropriate bills, etc., (typical stunts), I would rise and "take the words down," I think is the phrase, to begin the process of removing it from the record, and possible censure. Republicans do this all the time, they did it to Gene Taylor of Mississippi, who dared criticize Bush for lack of compassion to the Gulf Coast, etc. Make a huge, delaying scene of it, on the basis that it is a lie, a deliberate attempt to make the American people think that Democrats are obstructing the process when they are not, etc. This will give some consequence to this constant lie by Republicans, so that they do not just slide on every Goddamned thing, as they do now. Make a spectacle of every one of these lies about being "shut out of the process," when it is all false and they know it.

Second, during ordinary Floor speeches, I would occasionally, as a "joke" or even serious, but "polite" remark, throw in phrases like, "I am going to criticize President Bush's cuts to childrens' health care, so perhaps Republicans might want to censure me, too," etc., so as to ridicule, but not by escalating the incivility or actual fighting, their abuse of this process. This tactic could be done wittily., as the great Barney Frank does things: "I would like to make a serious comment, if I can manage to get it past our Republican censors," etc. "Does the Republican Party mind if I give a speech on Medicare or the Iraq war?" etc. Don't run from this situation, just because they are not solving it at the moment--expose it for what it is, Republican destruction of the entire process.

[MagickMuffin]

17. That's what I'm talking about ;=D

make the republicons look like the obstructionist that they are. Everyone should realize by now that when the repubs aren't in power why whine, bitch, moan and cause such a stink that they pollute the whole environment with their shit throwing. Once they have the power they abuse it and obstruct the Democrats at every turn.

Well now that we have the power once again the Dems need to use it. As you say making the repubs look foolish while on the floor. Barney Frank is a great example of this. He knows how to make fun of them and there really isn't much recourse the repubs can take except to accept the ridicule.

If the Dems play their cards right they could show how disruptive the repubs have become. Of course they have to deal with the media. Maybe they should use the tactic Newtie used by labeling the media as "Conservative News Media" at every opportunity they get. Anytime they are on the "Conservative News Media" they should bring our awareness to the fact that the news biz is extremely conservative, which it is. DUers know this and anyone with just a few synapse firing knows this. Dems and other liberal/progressive pundits need to hammer it home to the lazy minded people that things have changed so much that if we don't start correcting it now who knows what will happen to our democracy. We're already seeing signs of what happens when the "Conservative News Media" fail to report the facts. It diminishes the whole process of what our democracy is suppose to be about, especially their job of keeping the powers that be held accountable and shining the light on falsehoods.

I know that's a lot of things to get accomplished but it has to be done. Let the Dems make it known "the 109th Rubber Stamp Republicons (who only had their parties interest in mind and not Americans and now the 110th Road Block Republicons" who will not work within the the system) are the ones subverting the process.

Scream IT Shout IT. I think then maybe just maybe the American Public will wake up. Because most Americans are in such a deep sleep it will take the Dems to wake them the hell up. And if America is to survive our loss of the democratic process and to get things done then we need to keep voting the repubs out of office so the process of taking care of the American people can continue. The repubs don't have the American people's best interest in mind and everyone needs to be reminded of this.

I do get encouraged when polls come out about the disapproval ratings and things are starting to swing in our favor. It is a sign that things are starting to turn around. Because when people realize that the only money that our hard earned tax dollars go to is funding the war machine, I think it shows that that is the only thing that seems to matter is war. And the repubs know how to use the military against the Dems. The Dems need to make it known that the repubs only care about the war machine NOT the troops who have placed their lives on the line, which the repubs could care less about. After all, every time there is a new bill for funding the war that comes out, it's kinda telling that the repubs always claim this is money for the troops, however, it's always the same old line of bullshit. This needs to be pointed out. How many times have we heard this now, "the money is for the troops, for the improved humvees, for blah blah blah" the fact is it has never been intended for the troops, its only intention is to fund the war machine and private mercenaries which get paid way better then the soldiers.

Anyway I hope I made sense.

[mmonk]

18. The problem with apologizing when you haven't done anything wrong

is that by doing so, you legitimize the republicans in the eyes of others who don't know any better. Never apologize to bad people.

[MagickMuffin]

19. While you and I might agree he did nothing wrong, there might be a lot of people who do not agree

such as military families. I think Stark's remarks showed that he had good intentions, but maybe came off as cruel.

He was being passionate about the cost of war and the loss of life from vetoing SCHIP and soldiers dying on the battlefield for a lie. I've often thought the exact same thing about why the repubs are anti abortionist because they NEED cannon fodder. You can't be pro life and pro war, because war is all about death.

I think that once again even though Stark's remarks needed to be said and how he seemed upset he was forced to apologize it will work in the Dems favor. I could be wrong, but I hope as I have stated elsewhere in this thread that things will start to turn around. But who knows, I'm not the best fortune teller around, but I have a good batting avg.

[walldude]

20. Sorry, but the flaw in your logic is that Dems are doing the

"right thing" by apologizing. You apologize when you are wrong, apologizing for speaking the truth well, that negates the truth you are speaking doesn't it. And frankly I don't really care about the next election right now. The Dems have proved that they don't have the spine to stand up for what's right. Why would I believe that things will be different after the next election? Not much has changed since the last one and the fact is if the Dems can't drum up enough votes to override a veto that takes away health care from children then I can't imagine them getting anything accomplished even if they hold the Senate, Congress and the Executive.

[MagickMuffin]

22. So, sit the election out. The only reason the Dems can't get anything passed is because of

the Road Block Republicons. That's why they need to shout it out at every opportunity. There needs to be more Dems in congress who can get bills passed. As stated above Norquist has given the repubs their marching orders and they obey every order.

So, go ahead and sit out the election and see how your logic is way more flawed than mine.

[MadHound]

21. Sorry, but this simply makes the Democrats look weak and spineless

Why should anybody support a party who is willing to cave time and again? Why should anybody within the party dare to speak truth to power when their own so-called team is going to force them to grovel before that self same power? Why should anybody fight for the party when the party is apparently either unwilling or unable to fight for itself? These are the perceptions that many, many people, especially on the left, are taking away from the Stark and MoveOn incident. Combine this with the fact that the Dems have failed to do anything of substance to bring the war to an end, and refuse to bring Bush to justice, much less stand up to him, and you've frankly got a party that is looking like it is either toothless or bought off or both.

Is this the message that the party wants to send? If so, then they accomplished their mission. If not, then they are screwing up royally.

[MagickMuffin]

23. I believe this has more to do with the DLC then the rest of the members who aren't part of that team

Yes it makes them look weak to us, but what do you purpose to do about it?

Sit out the elections is really not an option. If you don't like the way the party is handling the situation maybe you could encourage more liberal/progressive candidates to run against the same o same o. I don't have the answers, but I think things could turn around if we remind the DLC that they are NOT the majority of the party.

[MadHound]

24. Frankly after having worked for the party and been active for over thirty years

It has gotten to a point where one has to say enough is enough. I've done the whole "work within the party" schtick. I've tried to work for change, yet my only reward for it is a party that has moved ever rightwards, to the point where it is now openly and honestly repudiating its left/liberal base. When one's needs aren't being met, when all that the party gives you is demands for your vote and your money without anything in return, when your pet issues are not only not being addressed, but are instead being openly dismissed by your party, what is left for you to do? Keep working against your own interests? Keep engaging in a situation that is analogous to spousal abuse? No.

There comes a time when a seperation has to occur, when a divorce is needed, and frankly I think that the left/liberals and the party have come to this point. Does this mean staying home on election day? No, it means going out and finding a party that welcomes us and that fits our beliefs. Yes, this very well might result in the fall of the Democratic party, but quite frankly, what good is retaining such a party in power if it is openly working against you? Perhaps such a fall will wake the leadership up and make them realize the error of their ways. Perhaps it will prompt them to make changes that will make them once again attractive to the left/liberals. Or perhaps the party will simply collapse and go the way of the Whigs, only to be replaced by a more responsive party on the left. Any way you choose from there, it is certainly going to be better for the left in the long run to make that choice rather than making the decision to stick with a party that repudiates. I know that sounds cold hearted and heretical, but frankly that is the point to which the left has been driven.

[MagickMuffin]

25. I understand what you're saying

I felt betrayed back in 2000. I voted green in the '00 election (it didn't matter here in Texas, and thought I would send a message to the Dems) and I have voted for a libertarian ticket.

Only problem with voting for a different party is because of the fact it usually ends up taking votes away from Dems and handing the election to repubs. I don't know HOW to make the DLC realize they are a large problem for the party.
They want to silence us and make us feel relevant. How could this have happened except for the fact the DLC thought they should suck up to lobbyist and their corporate cash? Now they think that is the way to WIN. That is why I think corporations and lobbyist should and must be banned from our electoral process. Corporations are NOT "WE THE PEOPLE" they are only interested in their interests. And we are not part of that process at all, except in the fact we need their services.

Damn them ALL....

[Hidden Stillness]

26. This is now the Overwhelming Problem--Lobbyists

This is the biggest threat, and the biggest threat of all, to our whole political system; it is the only thing that can explain so much of their bizarre behavior, from votes cast in Congress, to this creepy "friendship" with Republicans who then stab them in the back--again.

Just to take some random examples of outrage, all of which leads to the same basic conclusion, that of the corporate/lobbyist control of, now, every Goddamned thing: the "Democratic"-controlled Congress voted, some months ago, to kill your TV broadcast signal at the beginning of 2009, so you will either have to buy a new TV or digital box, or lose all TV airwaves--for no reason; wait until the people who can't even afford to go to the dentist now no longer get free airwaves (like Clinton's "V-Chip" crap, and media deregulation). There are no anti-trust.anti-monopoly laws or regulations anymore; all mergers are approved. If Republicans want a bill to be watered down, it is going to be watered down, no fight. All major "Democratic" candidates have supported unregulated commercialization (wrongly named "privatization") of former Government services and agencies, since the days of Mario Cuomo, who bizarrely praised "privatization" and "small government" with no warnings against unchecked corporate power. All of them have the same sneering, "superior" attitude of criticism and distance from anyone who calls for oversight and curbs on now-extreme corporate power and control of government. There are no organized forces against expanded NAFTA-style "free" trade; even Charles Rangel, ordinarily one of the best in Congress, supports all the latest expansion efforts, np matter how disastrous. During the 1980s, when one of the biggest corporate tax-cheat scams among pharmaceutical corporations, was to move all corporate headquarters to (no-tax) Puerto Rico, Rangel voted for their ability to do this tax-cheat move. Hillary Clinton is on the board of Wal-Mart, (or, "was," like Cheney "was" with Halliburton), and Al Gore, the champion of the environment, still does not understand why NAFTA and GATT, the Clinton-Gore "achievements," are so disastrous. On and on it goes.

What else explains the sickening groveling that Congressional Democrats do, refusing to fight "our Republican friends," praising even their most tepid and half-hearted cooperation, yet fighting with shocking anger, the "Democratic activists" who mess up "their" system. It really is shocking, when the only economic help any of them seems to give anymore, is protection for stockholders, and corporate subsidies and tax-cuts (shifts). They passed the (credit card-industry-written) Bankruptcy Bill and the (pharmaceutical- and insurance- industry-written) "Medicare" Part D--both huge disasters and corporate scams, and will not rescind either one. Nancy Pelosi goes to the floor of the House today and "I want to thank most of all, the Republicans," claiming that if not for them, the S-CHIP bill would not even be here--and the Republicans then proceed to vote against it, en masse, the same as before!

Well, anyone could easily go on and on with examples, but everyone knows many more. This lobbyist takeover of a National Democratic Party that does not resemble itself anymore, or its once-great history, but does resemble a meeting of corporate bankers, is at the center ("centrist") of the problem, and also explains why they can just never get around to any campaign-finance reform, ever. How can you deal with or get rid of a group that has reworked the law so much that it has made itself so powerful?

[MagickMuffin]

27. A lot of good questions in your post, wish I had the answers... :=(

Since you brought up Rangel, I'll never forget seeing him during an interview explain how NORML lobbyists were courting the Dems about Marijuana issues and trying to get them to listen to their concerns about the danger of prohibition against Cannabis.

Rangel proceeded to say how they would take NORML's money he said with a chuckle, but we won't ever do anything for them, as he lit his fat cigar and drinking his glass of alcohol. This was back in the 90's.

At that instance I knew that only certain lobbyists can ever be taken seriously by the corporate owned congress. It really said a lot to me that the system is beyond repair.

Gee wouldn't it be nice to be a lobbyist for our cause and write some laws and just have congress pass them without ever reading what was written into the bill.

Writing laws is hard work, who has time for that when all we want to do is play a round of golf, or go deep sea fishing, or running around trying to raise campaign cash.

Our Democracy is broken and I don't know how it will ever get fixed!