I have been saying they are clearly using Orwells book 84' as a Bible for years

[Iwasthere]

NOW DO YOU BELIEVE ME?

[nancyr]

1. Of course I believe you.

[Iwasthere]

4. Sorry

Actually meant, "Do those of you that keep crying conspiracy to me, NOW BELIVE ME?" Man, has that word been injected with power lately! Walk into a crowd and say the work 'conspiracy' and watch what happens.

[itsmesgd]

2. people will deny this even as they are being dragged by their heels into Room 101

[leeroysphitz]

14. and they'll deny it even more fervently once they return... nt

[havocmom]

3. With some Margret Attwood thrown in

for good measure.

Actually, a lot of what I see today, I read decades ago in Heinlein.

[Sequoia]

7. Which books of Heinlein's?

I read some of his stuff in high school.

[havocmom]

9. Stranger in a Strange Land, best known perhaps,

there were some with recurring characters - and a really scary theocracy in the US. Can't recall all the titles. Am old and it's been a long time.

There were some about a sort of alternate world where the US was run by some theocratic, self made saints. Figured Atwood, along with Falwell & Robertson all read Heinlein, but for entirely different reasons.

[Sequoia]

11. That's the one I read.

But all I can recall is the Stranger was had a nest on the planet, he had amazing powers, the carpet was made of real green grass, and he slept around and some thought he was the Messiah.

[havocmom]

16. Think back to his visit to a museum - the preserved remains of the leader

of the theocracy - he thought it a waste of food and there was reference to the preserved remains as being 'spoiled meat' ;) That preserved leader was in other Heinlein books, alive and evil. Sadly, I cannot remember names worth a damn these days so titles escape me. A bit of time to research the body of work Heinlein left us to contemplate will find several books about this alternate world where the US democracy was overthrown. The shadow theocracy plays a background role in those books.

Wish I had titles for you now, but that will have to wait for when I have research time of my own. May be several days. Can I PM you over the weekend?

hm

[Sequoia]

21. Yes, but I only h ave computer access at work M-F.

Maybe I'd better read that book again. Sci-Fi scares me anymore because so much of it is coming true. Like that book from 1972 - The Sheep Look Up, that a DUer turned me on to. And also "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sleep?" with birds falling out of the sky and electronic pets (Japan has done this lately.) And the crazy President in Sheep Look Up---Our own decider in the white house let me tell you.

[StatGirl]

23. "If this goes on -- "

This is a novella in his "Future History" series, which is printed in the book "The Past Through Tomorrow", see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Past_Through_Tomorrow. In "If this goes on -- ", we have a theocratic future in which a "prophet," Nehemiah Scudder, has taken over the USA.

Heinlein once said in an interview or essay that people often argued with him over this or that detail of the story. But not one person ever rejected the premise, that a religious fundamentalist whack-job could be elected president in the first place, and then basically abolish the Constitution.

The dead guy in "Stranger" was a different one; that was Foster. I don't recall his being mentioned in any of the other books, but he might have been in some of the later novels. Fosterism was a very interesting religion, and it was either a takeoff of mega-churches, if there were any at the time the book was written, or astonishingly predictive.

[ms liberty]

12. Here's some of them...

Methuselah's Children
Time Enough for Love
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (one of my favs)
The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
To Sail Beyond the Sunset
The Number of the Beast

I went thru a big Heinlein phase once upon a time!

[havocmom]

18. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress = the corporation as ruler

and an interesting view of AI taken to the extreme.

Trying to teach a sentient computer how humor works: priceless

To Sale Beyond the Sunset not about the theocratic US. I will have to dig a bit. The man wrote A LOT of great books. Some are about this alternate US. Many are not.

[ms liberty]

20. To Sail Beyond the Sunset...

IIRC is the story of Lazarus Long's mother, IIRC.

[antigop]

13. I would also throw in "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis n/t

[havocmom]

19. Yep

The visionaries and TRUE historian/philosophers warned us about a lot.

[Lerkfish]

5. I've also always said this, but could you tell me specifically what you refer to?

[IWantAChange]

6. I simply refer to Repug reality as BizzaroWorld ...........

- where facts/truth/logic/history/morals have been turned upside down and perception is the only reality.

[Ian David]

8. Bush has been using "1984" and "Babylon 5" as blueprints

Apparently, J. Michael Straczynski expressed horror that Bush watches the show.



Reason #4312 why George W. Bush is a complete moron

J. Michael Straczynski, creator of Babylon 5, tells of a visit to the White House {and this is relevant, trust me}, where he was informed by a White House employee whose name escapes me {JMS posted this, it shouldn't be too hard to track it down}, that President Bush wanted him to know that he watched and enjoyed Babylon 5.

On hearing of the creation of Homeland Security, my first thought was to wonder if Mr. Bush realized that the Home Guard {with whom Homeland Security shares some scary characteristics} were the bad guys! Then, when ABC announced the creation of "Threat Matrix", I flashed on Babylon 5's propaganda ads for the Psi Corps, and the use of the Interstellar News Service to proclaim government sanctioned news and events {and promote organizations like the Ministry of Peace, and the Home Guard}.

Source: http://www.eclipsemagazine.com/node/840

More:
http://chuck.mahost.org/weblog/?p=331


See also:


<snip>
6 of 22. ExecBranch4Dummies Northern California - God's Favorite Vacation Spot | Member 4735, Joined Feb 05, 2002 | 329 posts

Posted: 2004-07-24 07:20


Bruce Boxleitner went to the White House a few years ago with his wife, SAG president Melissa Gilbert. Karl Rove came out of his bunker, especially keen to meet Bruce, gushed how Bab 5 was one of his favorite shows and that GWB loved it, too.

Boxleitner relayed this info to J. Michael Straczynski, who was so depressed we said he slept for about three days.

By the way, I found out about Smirking Chimp from a freind who saw a recommendation for it on JMS's website.

XB4D

More:
http://smirkingchimp.com/viewtopic.php?topic=44217&forum=10


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
From: [e-mail] (Jms at B5)
Date: 2000/11/10
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/msg/75366922e5ef7246

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
From: [e-mail] (Jms at B5)
Date: 2000/11/10
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Florida and Bush
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/msg/885446ed2c8e4860

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
From: [e-mail] (Jms at B5)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:43:38 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Wed, Jul 14 2004 4:43 am
Subject: Re: OT and politics: Getting back to Aisling on MM
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/browse_thread/thread/75a6f7c7b0ad7285/b9215f4652e56388?lnk=st&q=Bush&rnum=2#b9215f4652e56388

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
From: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 02:14:37 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sat, May 14 2005 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: from jms: too damned much stuff
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/browse_thread/thread/a26fc1b0bfd70a00/55d4a90d58895386?lnk=st&q=Bush&rnum=1#55d4a90d58895386


DU Jerry Doyle's poll on the libby indictment
Topic started by IanDB1 on Nov-03-05 10:08 PM (8 replies)
Last modified by IanDB1 on Nov-04-05 07:35 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2222191




Sunday, January 14, 2007
Babylon 5: 3x07-3x10

<snip>

In general, I think the conflict with Earth is effective, but could have been handled a bit better. The problem is the sides have been set up in such heavy opposition. There's no way to support the Earth government, with its propaganda and omnipresent Nightwatch. The fact that we know Clarke killed President Santiago means it's tougher to even consider his side of things. It would have been more effective if Clarke had started out as a moderate, but in light of the death of the president and attacks on Earth, got pushed down the path of fascism. Now, we know he was plotting this from the beginning, and there's no ambiguity. To quote the obvious real life parallel, if George Bush had caused 9/11 just as a way to insitute martial law, he's just an absurdly evil person. But, if he overreacts to 9/11 by restricting speech and freedom, in the name of doing something good, it's a more complex situation, and you can be more sympathetic to his viewpoint.

Of course, in real life, Bush is just as much a ridiculous cardboard villain as Clarke, so I suppose it's hard to complain about the story for its lack of realism. But, ambiguity is always better in storytelling. That's where Zack's story works well. This is a guy with good intentions who's not sure what the right thing is. He's trying to work within the system, but has been so manipulated, he's lost any sort of moral compass.

But, the viewer is never forced to explore that same grey territory, and that means it's a more straightforward scenario than the Narn/Centauri War. There, we sympathize with both Londo and G'Kar, and that makes it even more painful when the tragic events unfold. I love that really ambiguous territory, good people getting taken down a bad path, and people who've done bad things trying to reform themselves. That's what makes their arcs so much more compelling than the humans for me, Sheridan may have trouble attacking an Earthforce ship, but we know he's doing the right thing. Londo thinks he's doing the right thing, but is horribly misguided and doesn't realize it until it's too late. Now, I suppose JMS wants to keep some traditional heroes on the show, but it's more interesting to watch heroes struggle with internal questions that they can't answer than to battle an external foe we know they can defeat. The conflict here comes from the fact that we have an innate sympathy towards the Earth government, because it's us, not because of anything the show actually gives us.

Being a title episode for the season, we get a glimpse of the future, by way of Londo's encounter with the seer. Unlike 'Signs and Portents' or 'The Coming of Shadows,' we don't actually see the future, rather we're told some things. There's the decidedly ambiguous words from Morella, and also some the unambiguous declaration that both Londo and Vir will become Emperor. Now, the route that seems most likely at this point is Londo becomes Emperor, the Shadows eventually turn on the Centauri and they're so defeated that the Narn, possibly as part of the Alliance of Light, invade and G'Kar kills Londo. Then, due to his connections to the Minbari, Vir is installed as Emperor and oversees a period of peace for the Centauri, picking up the legacy of Emperor Turhan. I'm assuming it won't proceed exactly like that.

More:
http://thoughtsonstuff.blogspot.com/2007/01/babylon-5-3x07-3x10.html

[POAS]

10. Me too!

It is a blueprint for action and tactics to the Republics!

[KittyWampus]

15. no, they're just following the Soviet playbook

[Arkansas Granny]

17. I think they are working on the sequel now.

[itsmesgd]

22. per 1984, if we proles could only get it together and realize the strength we had,

we could win this thing.

-sorry but I'm watching it again now as I surf and post. If mine enemy will use this, I should be more aware.