Why do you think undocumented workers come north?

[EFerrari]

I'm asking because I really don't know what most people think. And, in a way, developing a viable policy depends upon understanding why someone would leave their home and, most of the time, their family, and of taking the risk of traveling here and of living here invisibly as possible.

Up front, these are the reasons I think people believe people come north:

1. They are criminals.

2. They want mine.

3. Their own country is a mess.

4. They want the American Dream.

What do you think? It would be nice if we could just talk and not go Peg Bundy all over each other and GD. :)

[stray cat]

1. They want to support themselves and their families

[EFerrari]

4. Some people would ask, why can't they stay home and do that? nt

[uppityperson]

51. Wages are too low, job competition too high.

Those I have known are able to work here, away from family, sending money home for them to live on there. They would have to work 80 hours a week there for less than they can make in 30 hrs a week here. Ask those "some people", don't you think they would prefer to live with their spouses and kids rather than having to go away to work? For those who bring their families along, don't you think they would prefer to live amongst their friends without fearing the law?

Economic incentive is a really big one. And no, not to "live the american dream" but to be able to raise healthy kids who are able to get enough education to get out of the basic low paid manual worker role. Or is that the american dream?

Edited to add, I knew a couple guys who came here illegally, are working towards being here legally. They had sponsored jobs, places to live, etc, and were not able to go home and see their families for over a yr. Each had baby/small kids at home that they couldn't see for over a yr. If they went back home into Mexico, they would lose the time they'd put in here already. 1 went back, 1 stayed. They really missed their families. Staying legally isn't that easy for many people.

[XemaSab]

75. Word.

I read a really good article a couple months ago in the LATimes about this dude who was working in a bank and living in a decent house with his family in Mexico, but he could make WAY more money picking strawberries and sleeping in a brush shelter in the woods in Salinas.

Sad, really.

[EFerrari]

90. One of my friends was here for nearly five years without going home.

It was a terrible situation. He had an auto shop in Mexico and he could paint cars beautifully. But he had to shut down the shop because all his customers slowly moved away and north. So, he packed up and had to follow them.

His wife and kids are here now. I don't know what their status is. But I'll never forget how sad he was for all those years.

[Yupster]

110. The job situation is so difficult

down there, and how do you catch up when the population continues to explode. Employment just falls further and further behind.

More than 10 % of the population of Mexico is estimated to be living illegally in America.

It's a real mess, and getting worse as the population grows.

[pingzing58]

7. Absolutely and with the money they send home they can build their house and start a business!

[Lucinda]

26. Which is EXACTLY what everyone I have ever met from below the border

has been doing. They can support entire extended families on what they can earn here.

[bperci108]

32. I read somewhere once that "money sent home from US" is like the third biggest

..."industry" in Mexico.

Their country is a mess thanks to neo-liberal economic policies and US-style wingnuts in charge.

I also read that there are something like 30-40 super-wealthy families that essentially run the whole of the Mexican economy/government.

We're well on our way there ourselves if something doesn't change here soon.

[EFerrari]

53. That's right. And it turns out that Cheney is Obama's cousin.

Oligarchy anyone? :crazy:

[bperci108]

149. Sometime read Zinn's "A People's History of the United States"...

...and tell me an oligarchical US is worthy of a :crazy:

[Lucinda]

76. That doesn't surprise me

I have had a lot of acquaintances from south of the border, who leave everything behind to come here and try to improve the quality of their family's lives back home. Its VERY hard for them to get ahead at home. Opportunities aren't great. Wages suck. It's a mess.

[Irreverend IX]

97. That's why the borders should be sealed.

Cut out a third of the Mexican economy, and instead of crossing into the US the impoverished workers will march on Mexico city and the members of those 40 families will end up hanging from lampposts. Mexico's fundamental problems will never be resolved as long as the US enables the corruption going on there.

[EFerrari]

99. We could start by sealing the borders so that BushCo felons

don't go down there to help the elites steal elections. That would be a great start!

[BlackVelvet04]

131. How would you propose sealing the border? n/t

[bperci108]

148. A far easier solution would be to criminally penalize employers who hire illegals.

Let a few CEO's do some jail time and the exodus south would begin tomorrow.

"Sealing" the border is a physical impossibility, unless you want a East Berlin-style no-man's-land with razor wire, gun towers and minefields for a couple thousand miles along the southern border? ;)

[ulysses]

2. "go Peg Bundy"

:D

I think they come because they're desperate for a decent standard of living, for opportunity. It isn't the Mexican middle class that's fording the Rio Grande...

[EFerrari]

10. (That's what I tell my puppy: Don't make me go Peg Bundy on you.)

Do you know the state of the middle class in Mexico? I honestly don't.

[ulysses]

13. actually, I'm only guessing that there even is much of one.

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

77. I wouldn't be so sure...

If you can make more money being a laborer here than working in an office there... why not ford the river?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Same reason my grandmother and mother came west from England.

To steal floor-washing jobs from "good Americans".

[EFerrari]

14. Okay. My mom came here to steal punch card jobs

but she did it legally.

Her decision was different, I think. She really did want to come to America and to stay here. :shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Actually, she left Ireland to steal English jobs first.

Then to Canada with a Brit ex-soldier who broke horses for the Canadian army. Until he got the wrong horse. Then south with 4 of her 6 kids including my mother and aunts. I have no idea if she ever became a citizen.

"Ireland is a beautiful place to starve." When I asked her about Ireland.

[John Q. Citizen]

39. Your Grandmother has a sense of humor I see.

[MADem]

23. And then on came the Irish, to steal the jobs from the English!!!

And thence came the Eye-talians, to take the jobs from the God-fearing Irish!!! And further, there came the maurauding Poles, to shove those dear Eye-talians, gentle folk all, to the side...!!!

Those poor "Good Americans." They didn't have a chance!!! Especially when the "Orientals" took hold, and started taking all the good college slots!!!!

[EFerrari]

103. LOL! 'Xactly. Once I got to go out to Angel Island here, in the bay.

There's a facility still standing on the island where they held immigrants from China until they could figure out a way to deport them. I think this place was for women.

You can still read the messages they left for each other. "Tell my family I was here for five months and am being sent back." That kind of message. The island is beautiful if small and the facility is pretty damn grim. I can't imagine living there for even a weekend.

[Joanne98]

5. I blame neo-liberal economic policies..

The Washington Concensus!!!And right-wing dictatorships... If Latin America keeps moving to the left, things will get better for them down there. BTW I grew up on the border of Mexico so I have been watching this my whole life. The poverty below us really is an American invention!

[EFerrari]

15. I suspect you are right. Btw, I've been trying to find a good

definition of neo-liberalism. Do you have one? I'm not sure I'm clear on the concept.

[Joanne98]

30. Here ya go....

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

What is Neoliberalism?

A Brief Definition for Activists
by Elizabeth Martinez and Arnoldo Garcia, National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights

"Neo-liberalism" is a set of economic policies that have become widespread during the last 25 years or so. Although the word is rarely heard in the United States, you can clearly see the effects of neo-liberalism here as the rich grow richer and the poor grow poorer.

"Liberalism" can refer to political, economic, or even religious ideas. In the U.S. political liberalism has been a strategy to prevent social conflict. It is presented to poor and working people as progressive compared to conservative or Rightwing. Economic liberalism is different. Conservative politicians who say they hate "liberals" -- meaning the political type -- have no real problem with economic liberalism, including neoliberalism.

"Neo" means we are talking about a new kind of liberalism. So what was the old kind? The liberal school of economics became famous in Europe when Adam Smith, an Scottish economist, published a book in 1776 called THE WEALTH OF NATIONS. He and others advocated the abolition of government intervention in economic matters. No restrictions on manufacturing, no barriers to commerce, no tariffs, he said; free trade was the best way for a nation's economy to develop. Such ideas were "liberal" in the sense of no controls. This application of individualism encouraged "free" enterprise," "free" competition -- which came to mean, free for the capitalists to make huge profits as they wished.

Economic liberalism prevailed in the United States through the 1800s and early 1900s. Then the Great Depression of the 1930s led an economist named John Maynard Keynes to a theory that challenged liberalism as the best policy for capitalists. He said, in essence, that full employment is necessary for capitalism to grow and it can be achieved only if governments and central banks intervene to increase employment. These ideas had much influence on President Roosevelt's New Deal -- which did improve life for many people. The belief that government should advance the common good became widely accepted.

But the capitalist crisis over the last 25 years, with its shrinking profit rates, inspired the corporate elite to revive economic liberalism. That's what makes it "neo" or new. Now, with the rapid globalization of the capitalist economy, we are seeing neo-liberalism on a global scale.

A memorable definition of this process came from Subcomandante Marcos at the Zapatista-sponsored Encuentro Intercontinental por la Humanidad y contra el Neo-liberalismo (Inter-continental Encounter for Humanity and Against Neo-liberalism) of August 1996 in Chiapas when he said: "what the Right offers is to turn the world into one big mall where they can buy Indians here, women there ...." and he might have added, children, immigrants, workers or even a whole country like Mexico."

The main points of neo-liberalism include:

THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating "free" enterprise or private enterprise from any bonds imposed by the government (the state) no matter how much social damage this causes. Greater openness to international trade and investment, as in NAFTA. Reduce wages by de-unionizing workers and eliminating workers' rights that had been won over many years of struggle. No more price controls. All in all, total freedom of movement for capital, goods and services. To convince us this is good for us, they say "an unregulated market is the best way to increase economic growth, which will ultimately benefit everyone." It's like Reagan's "supply-side" and "trickle-down" economics -- but somehow the wealth didn't trickle down very much.

CUTTING PUBLIC EXPENDITURE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES like education and health care. REDUCING THE SAFETY-NET FOR THE POOR, and even maintenance of roads, bridges, water supply -- again in the name of reducing government's role. Of course, they don't oppose government subsidies and tax benefits for business.

DEREGULATION. Reduce government regulation of everything that could diminsh profits, including protecting the environmentand safety on the job.

PRIVATIZATION. Sell state-owned enterprises, goods and services to private investors. This includes banks, key industries, railroads, toll highways, electricity, schools, hospitals and even fresh water. Although usually done in the name of greater efficiency, which is often needed, privatization has mainly had the effect of concentrating wealth even more in a few hands and making the public pay even more for its needs.

ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF "THE PUBLIC GOOD" or "COMMUNITY" and replacing it with "individual responsibility." Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves -- then blaming them, if they fail, as "lazy."

Around the world, neo-liberalism has been imposed by powerful financial institutions like the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank. It is raging all over Latin America. The first clear example of neo-liberalism at work came in Chile (with thanks to University of Chicago economist Milton Friedman), after the CIA-supported coup against the popularly elected Allende regime in 1973. Other countries followed, with some of the worst effects in Mexico where wages declined 40 to 50% in the first year of NAFTA while the cost of living rose by 80%. Over 20,000 small and medium businesses have failed and more than 1,000 state-owned enterprises have been privatized in Mexico. As one scholar said, "Neoliberalism means the neo-colonization of Latin America."

In the United States neo-liberalism is destroying welfare programs; attacking the rights of labor (including all immigrant workers); and cutbacking social programs. The Republican "Contract" on America is pure neo-liberalism. Its supporters are working hard to deny protection to children, youth, women, the planet itself -- and trying to trick us into acceptance by saying this will "get government off my back." The beneficiaries of neo-liberalism are a minority of the world's people. For the vast majority it brings even more suffering than before: suffering without the small, hard-won gains of the last 60 years, suffering without end.

Elizabeth Martinez is a longtime civil rights activist and author of several books, including "500 Years of Chicano History in Photographs."

[EFerrari]

41. Thank you!

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. Excellent.

Amazing how much that sounds like the tune Hillary is singing.

[flashl]

6. We created a mess in their country then they come here for the "dream". n/t

[supernova]

8. Extreme poverty at home

Extreme poverty and lack of opportunity where they live.

I'm not saying we don't have those things here, we do, it's just that so many more people have no hope in the lands of their birth.

[EFerrari]

16. Let's push on that idea. Why isn't there opportunity in Mexico?

Someone just today posted that most of the undocumented workers that come here are from there, for example.

[supernova]

25. I'm no expert

but I can think of a couple of reasons.

1) Racism. Most of the people I see here are or look as if they could be native american. That's not an accident. There's a terrible sort of unwritten caste system where people who are or claim to be of spanish colonial descent reserve most of the wealth and opportunities for themselves. If you're indigenous, if you're black, tough luck getting an education and getting on the professional track.

2) Many years of really bad government. Corruption. What's the point in going to the police when you know the criminal who vandalized your fields has paid off the police, or the judge? And yeah, we probably contributed to some of that by keeping these slimeballs in power because it suited us at the time.

[EFerrari]

94. I agree about the racisim, although Mexico is much better

in that respect than El Salvador, where my family is from. But, sure, it's definitely a factor. As for corruption, my family sought political asylum in Mexico for some years and my grandma used to say, "Who will we call when the cops steal from us -- the burglars?". lol

I don't have any special knowledge of Mexico but clearly BushCo has cut a deal with the oligarchy there and the people are suffering because of it. Sort of like it is here. :(

[WindRavenX]

9. They want a better life for them and their families

And I'd do the exact same thing if I thought I could better my family.

I don't blame anyone who does what they do; not for a second.

[moondust]

107. Yup. Break the cycle of poverty

that they've been stuck in without hope of escaping likely for generations in many/most cases.

I think most Americans would want their kids to do the same if the tables were turned.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

11. they want to feed and cloth their families in the South?

[EFerrari]

45. What a perfect illustration.

:)

[mondo joe]

12. I believe the overwhelming reason is economic opportunity (which translates into

to better support self and family).

[EFerrari]

17. (I have to go out for a few so this puppy doesn't eat the teevee.

I'll be back.

And, thanks. :loveya:

/oops

[roody]

18. economic desperation

lack of opportunity and lack of human rights

[EFerrari]

92. I never found out what happened to those 200 odd "disappeared"

people from Oaxaca. Remember that? And journalists keep getting dead in Mexico. This is about as bad as I remember things being there in my lifetime in some ways.

[MADem]

19. They're criminals and want "yours?"

You REALLY think that?

[EFerrari]

46. No, I don't. Those are just two viewpoints that seem to get posted. n/t

[earth mom]

21. They want to live in the U.S. for the "American Dream" just like most of the world does. nt

[EFerrari]

48. How do we know that most of the world wants that?

This is a real question.

[earth mom]

54. How can you doubt it? nt

[EFerrari]

58. Well, what about because there are many places in the world

that have a better economy, a better job market, more services for their citizens and more tolerance?

[EFerrari]

59. Because there are many places in the world

with more jobs, better social programs and less hatred? :shrug:

[earth mom]

72. I thought you wanted to discuss this rationally and civilly?

When you bring up the "hate card" you are insinuating that you can't fathom any other reason other than hate why myself and so many millions of others in the U.S. aren't for an open border with Mexico.

So, I will repeat what I've long said which is that immigration should be fair to EVERYONE who wants to come here; it is not fair to open the borders widely to one group of people and not another. Also, employers who hire anyone who isn't here legally should be fined BIG time for their exploitation of workers on both "sides of the fence".

BTW-You are being disingenuous to say that people from other countries/overseas don't want to come here. C'mon now. You know that is not the reality.

[EFerrari]

87. I'm not for open borders so it would be silly for me to "insinuate"

any such thing. And there is a wave of nativism and yes, hatred, sweeping over this country right now. I don't have to "insinuate" that, I can just say it in plain English. Academics are calling it the New Nativism.

And, while you are entitled to your opinion of the reasons people come here, you are not entitled to be uncivil to me. Thanks.

[earth mom]

106. And you are not entitled to insinuate that it's about hate for me without getting your presumptions

pushed right back in your face.

[EFerrari]

108. I don't recall referencing you in any way as I have no idea who you are.

And, as I indicated above, they're not my "presumptions". The nativist movement is now a field of academic study, which I can't take the least bit of credit for.

[earth mom]

113. Well, I remember your replies to me in the past & they were with the same broad brush.

Meanwhile you have no idea who I am when I've been posting steadily-almost daily with the exception of this past summer-in GD all that time. Whatever. :eyes:


BTW, how do you know if I'm a "native" or not?


Because I wasn't born in the U.S. though I've lived here almost my entire life.


While both my husband and kid were born here.


FYI-My parents had to go through the proper channels and WAIT THEIR TURN to come here. And it took YEARS.

[EFerrari]

114. Whatever axe you're grinding, this isn't the thread to do it in.

We're having a conversation here. If you feel the need to "push things into other posters' faces", you might go find an appropriate venue for that activity.

[earth mom]

122. No my dear, you are the one with the axe to grind. nt

[EFerrari]

123. I asked a question that many posters have responded to thoughtfully

and not one of them felt the need to be insulting. There you have it.

[earth mom]

133. No-You took exception to my first post which wasn't inflammatory in ANY way

and proceeded with the inflammatory innuendo back at me about why you think myself and millions of people in this country don't want open borders.

FYI-Hatred is a pretty harsh word in case you don't know which I'm sure you do and that's why you used it.


Wow, just wow. YOU are the one to come back at me with the veiled insults and then insinuate that I'm stirring sh*t up. :wtf:

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

140. This was my first response to you in this thread:

How do we know that most of the world wants that?

This is a real question.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

112. I have a question

How many countries have you been to other than the US and how long did you stay in said country?

[earth mom]

115. What does that have to do with anything? nt

[GodHelpUsAll2]

117. I find

that most who proclaim how great the US is and how everyone in the world is salivating at the prospect of coming here has never stepped outside the borders of the US. Therefore the claim becomes nothing more than a fantasy statement with virtually nothing to back up the claim. How can you say the US is so much better when you have no clue what the rest of the world is like?

[earth mom]

121. Not everyone wants to come here. But there are millions who do & who would jump at the chance

to do so if they could because they think the streets here are paved with gold.

I'm not making this up, it's just common knowledge.

But feel free to poll the rest of the world to find out.

[EFerrari]

125. The rest of the world doesn't even want to vacation here.

Fewer International Tourists Visit US; Feel Unwelcome-AFP

WASHINGTON (AFP)--The number of foreign visitors to the U.S. has plummeted since the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington because foreigners don't feel welcome, tourism professionals said Thursday.

"Since September 11, 2001, the U.S. has experienced a 17% decline in overseas travel, costing America $94 billion in lost visitor spending, nearly 200,000 jobs and $16 billion in lost tax revenue," the Discover America advocacy campaign said in a statement.

Chairman Steven Porter lamented the "extraordinary decline" in the number of overseas visitors to the U.S., while the advocacy group's executive director, Geoff Freeman, blamed the slump on the shabby welcome many foreigners feel they get in the U.S.

"It's clear what's keeping people away in the post-9/11 environment: it is the perception around the world that travelers aren't welcome," Freeman told AFP.

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20071101%5cACQDJON200711011657DOWJONESDJONLINE001096.htm&

[earth mom]

136. As I said the people who want to come here are looking for the "American Dream."

Not people with money to burn who want a vacation. :eyes;

[EFerrari]

141. Why would poor people want to come here if rich people don't?

Maybe they're going for that "American Dream" that starts with robbery, rape and assault and, sometimes death in the desert? And with looking forward to the endless cycle of being ripped off and not having recourse to the law and being separated from your family? Maybe even getting to die in a San Diego fire?

That's not a dream, that's a nightmare. I have never heard any immigrant use that phrase but I have heard a lot of republicans use it, calling into Washington Journal to defend BushCo.

Have a nice night.

[earth mom]

138. All immigrants come here for a better way of life.

Calling it the "American Dream" is not a rethuglican meme. That terminology has been used for decades in this country.

So get off your high holier than thou horse.

[EFerrari]

151. If you read this thread, which you apparently haven't, you'll see

that people come here for a number of reasons, not only to validate the American world view of others.

And, thanks for helping me keep this thread a positive and thoughtful discussion.

[earth mom]

158. I've read the thread and see that you took exception-TWICE-to my first post

which was in NO way inflammatory. But you found it necessary to reply to my post by using the word hatred which was used intentionally by you for all the innuendo it could muster.

And yet you wonder why I just don't sit back and play nice like everybody else?! :wtf:


Sorry, but this thread of yours is TOTAL B.S. because you really don't want people to answer your question.


NO-you want to TELL people what the correct answer should be according to YOU.


You say you don't even know who I am, yet in the past you have replied similarly to me and now won't leave me alone on this thread and continue to diss me and try to shame me up one side and down another because I don't and won't agree with you about ILLEGAL-Get it? NOT LEGAL-immigration.

Simply Unbelievable. :eyes:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

129. You completely

avoided my question. But I expected that. It use to be "common knowledge" that the world was flat, blood letting cured sickness, witches couldn't be drowned or burned and that AIDS was strictly a homosexual disease. How did all those "common knowledge" things work out?

[earth mom]

134. As I said, do your own research to prove your own point. nt

[Skittles]

159. LOL

please: contrary to popular belief, plenty of people do not want to "live in America"

[malaise]

22. Because the neo liberal policies have

fugged up the south and people cannot feed their families when prices keep rising while currencies keep devaluing. Our farmers can't compete with dumped imports either. Our fishermen are kicked out of their seaside villages to make way for hotels for the rich. The Washington consensus model has fugged up the planet.

[EFerrari]

49. I don't understand how so few rich guys can screw so many places up.

It's just unmathematical or something.

[malaise]

65. Not really

There are always enough scumbags around who will fugg up their own citizens for politcal power and a few trinkets.

[rosesaylavee]

24. Money ... or is it something else?

Even the lowest paying jobs here are more than what they could get in some states of Mexico and South America.

Or, after the past presidential election, the election fraud was so overwhelming that they left as part of a collective moral response to the rightful candidate being cheated out of his duly elected position... oh, wait... :crazy:

:P

[EFerrari]

52. Time for us to invade Canada.

:P

[rosesaylavee]

73. And those poor Canadians...

where will they go... Though, based on the few Canadians I know, they would probably throw the bastards out if they attempted election fraud up there... in a very civilized, sedate way of course. With tea served afterwards.

[MADem]

81. They have their own Little Bush in charge up there--he's an asshole nt

[EFerrari]

88. My ex is half Canadian, which is to say, half Scots Irish.

He thought catsup was a spice. :)

[chaumont58]

27. To me, its not complicated, they come because there is nothing

in their native country. As far as I am concerned, Mexico has a social, economical and political system that will not support its population growth. It has become an almost endless supply of cheap labor for American businesses. American business get what is wants, and Mexico has a safety valve for its existing systems.
It seems to be accelerating. I have heard come talking heads say that states like Iowa are starting to notice, whereas before it was a phenomena for coastal states. I think it is because Mexican workers are beginning to be THE farm workers in Iowa, as they are in California. Fresno, California, has almost as many Spanish language TV stations as English.

[0rganism]

28. because people will hire them to work without valid documentation, maybe?

I agree with Hartmann on this one: we don't have an illegal worker problem so much as we have an illegal employer problem.

The fed should indict the employers who hire illegal labor, levy huge fines against them, and sieze their businesses with civil forfeiture just like the feds currently do with drug dealers. If the federal gov't had a solid track record of doing this on a regular basis, the market for undocumented migrants would dry up very quickly indeed.

As to why the illegal labor is willing to work for much less, it's the enforced economic disparity between adjacent nations. The much less the illegals work for as illegal immigrants is far more than they could make doing comparable work in their own countries, yet their very illegality ensures that it will always be less than the cost of hiring local legal labor. Thus, the local labor market is depressed, and the employers have a strong economic incentive to continue using illegal labor.

As long as certain nearby countries have a cross-border outlet for their excess labor pool, legal or not, they have less incentive to fix their own socio-economic problems. And as long as those problems persist, American employers will use this cheap illegal labor if they think they can get away with it. The best way we can break this vicious cycle is strict enforcement of legal hiring on our side of the border.

[EFerrari]

55. I disagree with Thom on this one.

Why punish business owners for federal policy? :shrug:

[TAZller]

78. Why punish anyone

for breaking the law? Surely you can answer that question yourself.

[EFerrari]

102. But that's not the issue. It has been Federal policy to look

the other way. To defund border guards and so on.

Why should business owners pay for the Federal government's negligence? It's easy to blame them just as it's easy to blame poor people who come here to feed their family. The biggest offender in all this is the Federal government who coddles corporations and defunds programs that are in the interest of working Americans.

It's like arresting a kid for stealing candy from a store after the owner has burned it down for the insurance. The kid isn't the problem. :shrug:

[TAZller]

104. Ummm yes the kid is the problem...

in regards to stealing. It is the responsibilty of business to follow the law without regard to which way the federal government is looking for the federal government cannot look in every direction. It is the kids responsibilty to not steal without regard to the situation that made it possible to do so. The whole rule of law would fall apart if we based our legal morals on enforcement.

I guess I gave you too much credit believing you could answer that question for yourself. Why should businesses pay for the neg of the Fed. They are not. They are paying and should expect to pay for breaking the law. Even if this mess is 100% the fault of the federal government, nothing removes the obligation of businesses to follow the law nor gives them the right to cry foul once the federal government begins to hold them to their obligations. On that point we may just have to disagree.

[EFerrari]

105. I don't need to get "credit" from you, thanks.

And the expectation that business owners will break free of a corrupt culture fostered by the federal government is unreasonable, to say the least.

I'm not arguing that my morals depend on being policed. I'm arguing that the conditions set by Federal policy is a trap for just about everyone except for connected cronies. Workers and business owners alike. As soon as you have this huge structure that is outside the law, there is no recourse to the law.

Maybe that's a point of agreement we can share. The law is a good thing, it keeps us going in a more or less orderly way. But the law doesn't not operate in a vacuum.

[TAZller]

109. Another point we can agree...

upon is that my "credit" statement was rude. Apologies.

I would add that the belief that businesses or workers should get a free pass because they are merely part of a corrupt culture "fostered" by fed policy is unreasonable. Change the policy or the culture if need be but don't compromise the expectation that the laws are followed and enforced along the way is my way of thinking.

[EFerrari]

111. Thanks and I'm sorry if I was testy, too.

This is exactly the crux, isn't it? When the law is overlooked or broken at every level of society, how to go about righting the situation. I agree with that.

[BlackVelvet04]

135. It's not just corporations hiring illegals, either....

I've asked this question before of people......if you get three bids to replace your roof and the by far lowest bid is from a Mexican are you going to ask him for his papers before hiring him? The answer almost always is NO. Americans hire illegals every day of the week to do their yards, wash their cars, repair their roof.

It's way too easy to blame just the corporations. Americans want it cheap and they want it now.

[EFerrari]

145. That's right. That is a feature of our culture. My anthropolgy teach

called it "time urgency" -- Americans really do have this thing about now, now and faster.

But the corporations are responsible for skewing US policy in Latin America, and driving people north in the first place as far as I can tell. The secondary gain is that once those people are here, they have to take what they can get, and that includes, undermining wages for working Americans.

How nice for the multinationals! Everybody loses but them!

[0rganism]

154. please pardon my late return to the thread

I believe I did answer your original question, but just in case you missed it, it's because they get paid more for doing so than they could earn by staying where they are. :shrug:

The pressure to immigrate is natural in itself, as well as a logical consequence of social and economic misfortune. We cannot change that so easily. When employers can turn overly-strict immigration quotas to their advantage by hiring among the resultant swarms of illegal workers, thus depressing the cost of legal labor, we most certainly do have a problem. Such predatory employment practices not only profit at the expense of every citizen and legal immigrant, they necessarily encourage social and economic malaise in the countries of origin, and they foster racist resentments among working people where there should be solidarity.

After reading your responses to the other posters in this subthread, I don't think we really disagree that illegal hiring (that is, the hiring of illegal workers) is a problem. We might differ on whether it is the primary problem, but the reason I bring it up as such, and I believe the reason Thom frames it this way, is that illegal hiring is a problem we can actually address effectively without vast additional resource outlays.

The solution is (and always has been) electing a representative government that displays the will to do so. Why shouldn't the government enforce its laws?

Let's say we have a set of federal environmental standards that factories are supposed to respect, but they have a history of lax enforcement and many companies have become accustomed to violating them if doing so increases profits. Would you object if the federal government suddenly started enforcing its own environmental laws? Certainly, the owners will cry foul, declare that the government is hostile to profitable businesses, and assert that consumer costs will rise as a result. But if we let the process continue as it is, our environment steadily degrades around us, damaging entire regions. Sometimes, our elected officials must serve the public instead of the purse.

It's the same with regulating immigration.

A sudden crackdown across the board is probably neither wise nor feasible, but the feds could send a strong message by indicting half a dozen high-profile illegal employers, perhaps including a few public officials, and declaring intention to continue such prosecution steadily and inexorably. Keep it up with a few such cases every other month, pretty soon the message will be received loud and clear. Couple it with increased top marginal rates for income taxes and sensible tariffs on imported goods to equalize with domestic production costs, then watch what happens.

As the illegal labor market dries up in the United States, the flow of hopeful illegal immigrants will slow proportionally. That is the time for labor and civil rights activists in Latin America to organize, seeking prosperity and freedom in their own countries, and we need to support their efforts this time around instead of their oppressors. Economic disparity and social unrest are the drivers of reform as well as relocation; by encouraging the former we may lighten the burden of the latter.

[spoony]

91. Yes, spot on

That is a bang-the-table-and-whistle post. You positively nailed it.

[EFerrari]

118. Not really. It answers the question "Why do undocumented workers

get hired?" but not "Why do these workers come north?"

[spoony]

127. I would point you to the third paragraph

of that post. And I would additionally conjecture that they probably have the hope of an indentured servant: the eventual escape into freeman status. Why they come, though, is not the question whose answer gets at the problem. That question is: what do they find when they get here?

[EFerrari]

128. LOL! Well, the question raised in this thread is why do they come.

But, thanks, I'll reread that graph. :)

[0rganism]

155. thanks for the props

The most frustrating thing about this situation, one which you observe later in the subthread, is that we are conditioned to ask the wrong questions and then proceed on the answers (e.g. "Really Big Fence™") when making policy, while the core issues remain unaddressed or even exacerbated thereby. We handle effects as if they were causes, ignore the areas where policy adjustments really could have a positive impact, and more people end up hurting as a result.

[kdmorris]

29. It would take extreme desperation to make most people

leave their home and family to make a trek that could kill you. It's not like they come in air-conditioned vans on nice safe highways.

Imagine what would happen if there were no opportunities here and the Canadian dollar was worth a hundred American dollars. Your children and wife are hungry and your crops failed again. But you live close enough to the Canadian border and they will hire you for a (Canadian) dollar an hour to pick tomatoes for them.

So, you make the difficult crossing to make $100 an hour to do what you normally do at home.

Yep, you'd do it, too.

[EFerrari]

57. In a heartbeat. n/t

[Sherman A1]

31. Simple economics

These people want a better life and to work for higher wages. I do not believe they should in any way be demonized for that or for their efforts, they should be respected and afforded basic human rights. I also don't believe that they should be here illegally. I just bet that if the employers of these folks faced some serious jail time and seizure of their assists that the issue would be resolved in about 2 hours. If we need to revise the immigration code, fine that can be done to adjust for needs in various industries, but we need to take away the economic incentive to employ illegal workers. I don't accept the premise that there are jobs that Americans will not do. There are jobs that we will not do for the wages offered, so perhaps it's time to enforce the law and let the market place do it's thing without it being skewed by those cheating the system.

[TahitiNut]

33. Why did Hansel and Gretel go to the witch's gingerbread cottage?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

61. I thought they got lost?

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

70. Only as a consequence of being abandoned by their parents.

Read the story. I think it can be regarded, at least in part, as an allegory of the times.

As usual, wikipedia has a useful summary - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansel_and_Gretel

[EFerrari]

95. I managed to suppress the whole abandonment part. Hmmm.

Wild dogs take better care of orphans than most political leaders do.

[Vinca]

34. I assume they want a better life for themselves, but since so many

of our jobs have gone over the border, there might come a day we pass them on our trek south.

[NMMNG]

35. They're poor, desperate, and need work.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

62. Okay but, why come here? Why not stay home?

I know what I think, I don't know what other people think.

[NMMNG]

67. We have what they don't

Jobs. Opportunity. A chance.

[EFerrari]

89. Omg! I didn't know the Gay Mafia was a secret!

lol

[NMMNG]

93. It is

Check it out. :hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

36. To support themselves and their families.

I guarantee you if our economy was the same as Mexico's (or any other poor country), a lot of us would sneak to bordering country's to work if we could get away with it.

[Ezlivin]

37. Because they don't fully understand the Kama Sutra

Oh, wait, I read that post wrong...

[EFerrari]

63. I forgot to add the word, "Catholic".

lol

[MadHound]

38. The predominant reason why there's been an increase in illegal immigrants is NAFTA

With America's overwhelming dominance in agriculture, we drove the ag sectors of our NAFTA partners into the ground, especially south of the border. Our outflow of manufacturing jobs to Mexico during the ninties was supposed to take up the employment slack for the Mexican job sector, and it did for awhile. But then those same multinational corporations shipped those jobs to places where the labor force is even cheaper, Asia.

So Mexico was left with no agriculture sector, and no manufacturing sector. Unemployment skyrocketed and thus we saw desperate people coming north in droves, not for the American dream, not because they're criminals, not because they want yours, but because of the simple fact that they are desperate and simply want to survive.

They, like the poor and working class in this country, are victims of free trade. The only difference is that their situation is much more dire. And the sad reality is that when you're looking at them, you could very well be looking at our own future, poor, homeless, penniless and desperate. This is what free trade does to everybody, makes homeless, desperate paupers out of the middle class and below, while enriching a very small group of the elite.

[EFerrari]

66. Last week Amy Goodman reported that the small steps China

was willing to take in the way of workers' rights were vigorously opposed BY AMERICAN CORPORATIONS like Matel -- who then turn around and plead ignorance of the horrible conditions THEY demand in those factories. :grr:

[Wcross]

40. I don't really care why they break our laws, I do know the effect it has on the working poor.

They provide surplus labor which suppresses the wages of our working poor. This allows employers to keep a larger percentage of their profit by using cheaper labor with no benefits. I wonder how many more Americans would enjoy a higher standard of living if it weren't for the competition by labor that is not supposed to be working here in the United States. I wonder if employers would be forced to provide health insurance to retain workers if it weren't for an abundant supply of labor? I wonder if we could achieve a "living wage" for poor Americans if it weren't for the competition?

[NorthernSpy]

74. the fact is that we've screwed up royally, Wcross...

We sacrificed our industry -- and consequently all those knowledge jobs that rely on proximity to industry -- to a bunch of loony "free market" economic theories.

I fear that for a while yet, there's really nowhere for the United States to go but down. That's going to remain the case even if every illegal alien were to pack up and go home tomorrow.


We might as well get used to it.

[Wcross]

83. I'm afraid you're right NorthernSpy.

However I don't think unlimited immigration is helping the working man any. I realize that the people coming here are looking for a better life and I can't blame them. I would do the same if I were in their shoes. It isn't fair to the working poor to allow this situation to continue.
I am for employer liability if the hire a worker who is not eligible to work in the United States. An appropriate fine would be double the wages paid to the worker during the period they were employed. A simple system using the workers social security number could be set up. You could get verification in seconds if it were Internet based. My own number has been used in fraudulent employment in the past. I was supposedly working at a turf farm in Florida when I was 12 years old living in New York?

[Basileus Basileon]

42. 1. Work.

2. See #1.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Because they want to take my sub-minimum wage grape-picking job from me.

The fiends!

[dmosh42]

47. Duh! For the cool weather...

WTF!

[baldguy]

50. They want to feed their children.

Of course, if they don't fill out the right kinds of forms we can't allow that.

[EFerrari]

98. When my mom was a tiny girl of four, the whole family fled

El Salvador and were given refuge in Mexico City. My grandfather got a job surveying Baja for the government and my grandmother was sort of left to fend for herself, six kids and a wacky mother in law in the slums of Mexico City. They were often hungry.

My mom and her sister remember Mexico with a lot of love. They tell me that the Commie Pinko nuns took care of them. They went to school, got some medical care and the nuns snuck them food whenever possible. It must have been hard for my grandmother because she was a bluestocking and aside from saddling horses, had never done a lick of rough work in her life. She resorted to going on radio game shows and managed to mostly feed the family with her winnings!

Anyway, all my aunts and uncles remember those really difficult, even dangerous times with a lot of affection. One of my aunts was murdered in DF by her husband and is buried there. Someone goes to her grave just about every year. We all feel just as connected to Mexico as we do to El Salvador and some of us much prefer Meixco. :)

[slackmaster]

56. Mostly '3' I believe

People who come here for reason #4 do so legally.

[EFerrari]

68. Imo, that's probably right. People who come here for #4

do the paper and wait. And, they need to have the resources to wait.

[Cleita]

60. It's because they enjoy being second class residents

with practically no civil rights, getting less pay than the average worker and paying the same taxes, like SS, which they have little chance of ever being able to collect on when the time comes. They like the names they are called like beaner and worse.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm: (For those who don't get it.)

Oh, and they want to marry our daughters, use our wonderful access to health care and urinate on our lawns every chance they get.

[EFerrari]

69. You forgot watching The Daily Show and worry about obesity. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

64. they want to earn money.

pure and simple.

[NorthernSpy]

71. one word: NAFTA

I guess that's really an acronym.

NAFTA obliterated Mexico's previously large family farm sector that once gave a measure of stability and independence to millions. Probably most of the people who have come here are fleeing the results of the neo-liberal, globalist, market fascism imposed on them by their ruling class and ours.


The thing is, my primary loyalty is to the American working class. And I can't agree with righting the wrongs done to impoverished Mexicans by subjecting the poorest section of the American working class to this massive flood of illegal foreign competition.

[EFerrari]

101. NAFTA and CAFTA is a disaster for working people. I agree.

Was it two weeks ago that BushCo threatened Costa Rica into signing onto CAFTA? It was polling 60% NO or so and then, Bush threatens them, puts on a media blitz and Bingo! It passes. Disgusting.

I wonder how many people that will drive out of their homes.

[XemaSab]

79. None of the above.

They are rabid racists who hate America and whitey and want the reconquista of the southwestern US for la raza. :P

[EFerrari]

84. Among ourselves we call that Project R.

:P

[judaspriestess]

80. My father came from Mexico

legally, but that was a long time ago, back in the late sixties when I believe it was easier. He came here for the opportunities to be successful, whatever level he deemed that at. He felt he did not have the same opportunity in Mexico.

Obviously things have changed since then and the climate is very different. But the reasons still basically remain the same. Economics, opportunity, hope for a descent life. Its survival.

Same reasons why Europe is being inundated with immigrants from Africa for example. - Economics, opportunity, hope for a descent life.

[EFerrari]

85. What state is he from?

There's a lot of flooding right now. First the fires, now the floods. :(

[blues90]

82. I can't narrow it all down to just Mexican and south americans

There is a wide range of undocumented workers coming from all parts of the world to the US . as far as coming north their is no work there since the US has destroyed their fragile economy and for other reasons such as drought .

Now days they are driven to every part of the US looking for work .

I'm certain some came years ago looking for the american dream , I knew a few in Chicago who worked the winter and went back to Mexico because they could earn much more here and go home and get by better . Now it's an entire different story . I am sure most would prefer to live in their own country with their families and not endure the danger coming here .

Now I hear some farmers in the US are renting land for crops in Mexico to avoid the immigration issue all together . I can't say if they pay more or less , if the pay is the same then this is better for the Mexicans .

Many I knew from south america came for the jobs and the dream in the auto repair field . Or they were leaving because of dictators and warfare .

[EFerrari]

86. I asked about Latin America because that's the conversation we

have here most of the time. Here in San Francisco, there are immigrants from all over but mostly from Asia and from Mexico. I think we have the largest population of immigrants from El Salvador outside of El Salvador itself.

[blues90]

96. It's the same here in lost angeles

There are many from south america and even different parts of south america who don't get along with eachother , there is a battle within . we also have a large population from Korea as well as Armenia . Areas are separate by signs and street borders .

I have friends in and around Chicago and it's the same thing there .

[EFerrari]

100. Reading a DU thread about gangs in L.A., I learned that

the gang thing is much worse under BushCo after a fifteen period of getting slowly better. Is there NOTHING these guys haven't made bad or worse?

I was in Santa Monica from 2000 to 2003 or so but since we worked from home mostly, I didn't go into L.A. very much and so, remained clueless about the whole scene.

[Elspeth]

116. They are recruited by companies who want cheap labor

This movement of cheap labor--often used to keep wages down across the board--happens here, in Europe and wherever the multinationals need to keep workers under foot.

[EFerrari]

119. Okay, sure. But, why are they so willing to sign on?

Why do people leave their home, their family, their friends and community -- especially in a culture where those things are the most important things -- to come here illegally?

[Elspeth]

120. They're poor and they need money

Most of the time, the money gets sent back to families in poor villages.

[tyedyeto]

124. Economics

Even if they make less than minimum wage and send part of it back home, their family is better off than if they had stayed home.

Many people die every year trying to come here to work. Is it worth it? To them, it probably is in their mind when they think of all can do for the familia with the 'higher' wages here.

[treestar]

126. For the same reason anyone migrates

There is money to be made here that is not to be made there.

Who cares? Why is it such a big deal?

The Irish came in the 19th century and just as many people made a big deal of it, but in the end they all melded in and became Americans.

Who gives a shit? I don't care how many Mexicans want to come, if they come, survive and become Americans, it's not skin off my nose. They only do what my ancestors did.

[LibDemAlways]

130. $$ is the draw. For years I worked in

a Southern California travel agency. Several times a week Mexican day laborers would come in and book a one way ticket Tijuana - Zacatecas. They would cross back over the border to Mexico and fly home to the interior. They were going to see their families, bringing cash earned in the U.S. That money supported wives, children, parents, siblings, and other members of extended families. Frequently the guys would show me well-thumbed photos of their loved ones, often with tears in their eyes.

One afternoon a man clutching his abdomen came into the agency in great pain. He wanted a ticket from Tijuana to Zacatecas that night. Something was very wrong, but he didn't dare seek out treatment in the US. I often wonder if he made it. He was in very bad shape.

As long as employers are willing to hire undocumented workers, they will continue to come. The money they can earn here goes a long way back home.

[BlackVelvet04]

132. As Bill Marhe (sp?) pointed out last night

nothing has changed in the last 10 years as far as immigration is concerned. What's changed? Why has this become such an issue? Lou Dobbs is one answer.

10 years ago I was living 7 miles from the Mexican Border and Border Patrol was spending more time hassling drivers on the interstate than they were actually doing anything productive to stop illegals.

Nothing's changed.

[EFerrari]

142. Except the hype.

:)

[defendandprotect]

137. Because Mexico is not investing its money in jobs -- it's lending its $$$ to America -- !!!!

Now, shouldn't it have occurred to Mexico long ago to invest in their own country?
How about some jobs for Mexicans?

But -- what would America have done for cheap labor then?
And a way to undermine their own workers -- ????

Mexico supports our national debt --- !!!!

[EFerrari]

144. The politicians that would invest in their own country have this bad habit

of being sabotaged by the US government. So, the oligarchy gets to rake it in while people are displaced and all the cronies are happy.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are not. Or, that's my take, anyway.

[defendandprotect]

147. I think you know how capitalism works . . . ah, yes!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

139. My simple thoughts on this

They want more.

More than the same poverty and working yourself to death with little to nothing to show for it in the end, and knowing that that is the same legacy you're going to leave for your children.

They want to be able to provide more for their families, more for themselves and actually fulfill the potential they believe they're capable of achieving.

They want stability and safety for their children. They want their heirs to have the possibilities that they could have had if their parents would have taken the risks and left all that they knew behind and dared to have wanted more.

They want a chance to work toward a better life.

That's what I believe anyway.

[countryjake]

143. secret desire to educate yanks on the importance of union organizing?

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but I also want to offer congrats for a very thought-provoking thread. and thanks!

My more likely answer to your question would be "hope".

And who is Peg Bundy, anyway?

[EFerrari]

146. Thanks, everyone. I have a better fix on what you think

and I appreciate that.

Btw, John Bowe is on BookTv this weekend talking about how undocumented workers are brought into this country. His book is "Nobodies".

[maveric]

150. Because they are lured here by unscrupulous business owners..

Who GIVE THEM JOBS FOR SUB-POVERTY WAGES AND NO BENEFITS TO EXPLOIT THEM!
That is it!

[EFerrari]

152. If you check out the post right above yours, there's a BookTV

segment about modern day slavery in the US. Mostly in the agri business. The slope between sub-poverty wages and actual slavery is about six inches long. Check it out.

[NNN0LHI]

153. Because we stole their land and continue to divert their water for some rich schmucks swimming pools

http://www.historyguy.com/Mexican-American_War.html

The U.S.-Mexican War—(1846-1848):

The Mexican-American War was the first major conflict driven by the idea of "Manifest Destiny"; the belief that America had a God-given right, or destiny, to expand the country's borders from 'sea to shining sea'. This belief would eventually cause a great deal of suffering for many Mexicans, Native Americans and United States citizens. Following the earlier Texas War of Independence from Mexico, tensions between the two largest independent nations on the North American continent grew as Texas eventually became a U.S. state. Disputes over the border lines sparked military confrontation, helped by the fact that President Polk eagerly sought a war in order to seize large tracts of land from Mexico.

CAUSES OF CONFLICT:

The war between the United States and Mexico had two basic causes. First, the desire of the U.S. to expand across the North American continent to the Pacific Ocean caused conflict with all of its neighbors; from the British in Canada and Oregon to the Mexicans in the southwest and, of course, with the Native Americans. Ever since President Jefferson's acquisition of the Louisiana Territory in 1803, Americans migrated westward in ever increasing numbers, often into lands not belonging to the United States. By the time President Polk came to office in 1845, an idea called "Manifest Destiny" had taken root among the American people, and the new occupant of the White House was a firm believer in the idea of expansion. The belief that the U.S. basically had a God-given right to occupy and "civilize" the whole continent gained favor as more and more Americans settled the western lands. The fact that most of those areas already had people living upon them was usually ignored, with the attitude that democratic English-speaking America, with its high ideals and Protestant Christian ethics, would do a better job of running things than the Native Americans or Spanish-speaking Catholic Mexicans. Manifest Destiny did not necessarily call for violent expansion. In both 1835 and 1845, the United States offered to purchase California from Mexico, for $5 million and $25 million, respectively. The Mexican government refused the opportunity to sell half of its country to Mexico's most dangerous neighbor.

CONSEQUENCES OF CONFLICT:

1. The United States acquired the northern half of Mexico. This area later became the U.S. states of California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Utah.

[Hoof Hearted]

156. They want to eat, feed, clothe and care for their kids

and their country is deeply poor and dysfunctional.

We need to seriously expand LEGAL immigration and pay these folks a decent living wage and protect them from the exploitation they face now.

We also need SECURE borders.

[Evoman]

157. If you could go to another country, which had less corruption, less crime, and somebody

paid you 3000 dollars a week to work 30 hours that week, with no tax taken off, would you do it? I.e. imagine that Canada was a utopia and all you had to do was cross the border......

That's sort of the comparison. You make way more and get to live in a nice place. My question is not "why do they come up here". My question is "why don't MORE come up".