Global Warming is minor compared to what they are NOT talking about.

[and-justice-for-all]

It is only a matter a years before we start down the bell curve of Oil and as it slides, but demand increases, it will be the begining of the end of the age of Oil and Suburbia USA will be the first to feel the effects of this no way out/self dug grave.

This Documentary explores what is on the horizon and the coma that America is in and will more then likely not wake from in time to save our own asses. The American dream was built on Cheap oil and now that dream is going to turn into one hell of a nightmare.

S U B U R B I A
http://stage6.divx.com/user/ChotaPapa/video/1740724/suburbia

[gateley]

1. K&R - thanks! nt

[daninthemoon]

2. And we've known about this for decades. Bad stuff.

[Lasher]

3. Hey, maybe Peak Oil will solve Global Warming.

Can't get oil, economies collapse, nobody driving anywhere and polluting, no petroleum to make fertilizer & run tractors, mass starvation, few people left to even build campfires. Global Warming problem solved! Except I haven't figured out what to do about all the cow farts and belches.

[RC]

6. Don't need to worry about cow farts too much, 'cause

cow herds will be greatly diminished due to people not being able to either feed the herd size we have now or to afford to eat them due to major transportation problems.
This country will be reclaiming all the coal fired steam locomotives currently in museums and putting them back in service. Cattle drives any one?

[Lasher]

11. People ate all the deer during the Great Depression

Around here when I was growing up it was a remarkable event to even hear that someone had seen a deer. There weren't any because they had been wiped out by people who were desperate for food. Now there are lots of them.

[Recursion]

16. You can feed lots of cows just on normal grass

This guy feeds a few thousand head of cattle on a small farm without shipping any feed in.
http://www.polyfacefarm.com

So, no, we won't be able to keep on like we're doing now; it's just that a whole lot of farmers are going to have to adapt like this guy.

[dysfunctional press]

28. actually- it will.

http://www.energybulletin.net/36739.html

Aside from the fact that it undermines the efficacy of carbon trading, this news has one good, one not-so-good, and one rather terrible implication.

On the good side, the early peaking of fossil fuels means that most estimates of future global carbon emissions will never be realized. The Special Report on Emissions Scenarios (SRES) of the IPCC presents 40 scenarios for future CO2 emissions. Most scenarios show growth in emissions to 2100; the average of all 40 shows fossil fuel consumption in 2100 at about twice current levels. The Report offers no discussion of supply constraints for oil, gas, or coal.

Engineering professor David Rutledge of the California Institute of Technology has authored an online article titled "The Coal Question and Climate Change" (www.theoildrum.com/node/2697), in which he applies techniques typically used to forecast oil production peaks to coal, arriving at conclusions similar to those of the Energy Watch Group. In his analysis, supply constraints will yield lower emissions from coal than envisioned in any of the 40 IPCC scenarios. On the basis of supply constraints alone - not assuming any voluntary emissions-based consumption cuts - atmospheric CO2 will peak at 460 ppm by 2070...

[Swamp Rat]

4. That ain't nuthin' compared to the loss of potable water.

The loss of potable water will become the greatest challenge to our species.

[and-justice-for-all]

5. I think we are screwed...

In the Corperatist eyes, money is all that matters and millions of people are going to burn for them and their greed. They are going to scortch the Earth and they think that their money will protect them like some invisible hand..

On one hand I am fearful of what is to come, but on the other hand I look at it as a clean slate(hopefully).

[Danger Mouse]

7. It won't be a clean slate. It will be Armageddon.

You think wars for oil are bad now? Wait till the desparation sets in.

[Zhade]

65. At least I'll get to see the greedy rich torn apart by mobs.

Cold comfort, but at least it's something.

[loudsue]

23. It already is .... it's happening now. Wells in the southeastern U.S. are dropping

by 2 feet per year. People can't drill their wells fast enough to keep up with the falling water tables. It's pretty scary around here.

[northernsoul]

31. These are inter-related crises, but I think that "Peak Water" is going to hit first and hardest

Thank you for keeping this issue front and center around here.

[Tesha]

8. Overpopulation is the root cause of it all. Billions will die. The Earth will abide.

It will suck for many of us, but the die is cast and
it's almost certainly too late now to head off the
death of billions, especially given the fact that
every passing day we do essentially nothing about
it all.

Tesha

[cali]

9. yes, sooner or later their will be a major human die off.

but keep in mind that people have been predicting that such a die off is imminent since Malthus. And there isn't anything we can do about it. It's a natural phenomenon, and neither bad or good, from that perspective.

[Tesha]

10. IMNSHO, there is precisely one thing that could save us.

> but keep in mind that people have been predicting that such
> a die off is imminent since Malthus.

But since Malthus, we've probably shifted several orders
of magnitude in population, certainly many orders of
magnitude in energy consumption and pollution production,
an order or two in water consumption, etc. The situation
is far more dire than it was in Malthus's time and the
end of cheap fossil-fuel energy will be cataclysmic for
a planet that's trying to keep 6+ billion people alive.

IMNSHO, there is precisely one thing that could save us:
The commercialization of fusion energy. Only that has
the upside capacity to continue to feed our glutonous
appetite for energy.

I'd say it's a 50-50 gamble. ITER, DEMO, and the follow-
on commercialized fusion reactors will be coming on line
a little late to prevent energy wars, but if we're
lucky, the conflicts won't escalate to full scale
nuclear war before fusion comes on-line.

Tesha

[DangerDave921]

12. We will solve it

New technology will arrive, I guarantee it. God would not allow the greatest country the world has ever seen to simply waste away. We are his favorite, and he will bring to us all the goodness and light that we deserve. Have faith!

[cali]

13. Do you actually believe what you wrote? n/t

[DangerDave921]

14. What do you think? eom :)

[cali]

17. Since you asked: I think

I asked you a simple and direct question, and you replied with a cryptic bullshit response.

[mopinko]

15. i think you forgot your sarcasm tag

or you are in the wrong place.

[DangerDave921]

18. Wow

Did Jonathan swift put a big SARCASM tag on his writing?

I figured some things are so obviously sarcasm as to not require a notice to that effect. Sheesh!

[mopinko]

24. some are.but

this is the internets. it can be hard to tell, and you never know.

[DangerDave921]

25. Well

Thank you for policing the Internet to make sure that all sarcasm is properly branded, and that undesirable speech does not gain a foothold. You have done a great public service.

[Phoonzang]

26. Humor is not allowed on DU

Oh I suppose I should put this: :sarcasm:

[Lasher]

33. Hey, that was humor!

Get him!



Folks certainly do seem a little cranky lately. Think I'll run for cover in the lounge.

[gtar100]

32. No worries. Some people got it.. We laughed, we smiled, we moved on.

thx

[mopinko]

37. hey.

all i did was reply to your comment. that is what the internets are for. it really is hard to tell sometimes. that is why god invented emoticons.
chill. no offense intended.

[EnviroBat]

36. I understood what you meant DD.

For some of the high-and-mighty on the site, the ignore button can be your best friend...

[bvar22]

45. Your sarcasm tag would not be necessary....

if what your posted were not Blind Faith Dogma for millions of Religious Extremists in the US.

As far as I know, no one in J Swift's England actually believed that eating babies would be the solution. Tens of Millions of Americans actually place their faith and their childrens' future in the nonsense you posted.

[LandOLincoln]

51. Welcome to the DU, but be warned: a goodly proportion

of the population here is at least mildly humor-impaired.

Also blind--you did put a smiley at the end of your second post, after all.

[timtom]

67. Sorry, DangerDave921

but some of the folks around here have a big stick jammed up their butts and are NOT comforters.

[Kazak]

20. God, eh?

Well, that's a relief!

[Strelnikov_]

21. Thats right, by Jiminy, it will all work out

Technology will come. I just know it will.

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. Did you forget the sarcasm smilie?

:shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

62. I'm with Cali, I would like more than a cryptic answer, these days one is not always sure.

Kind of interested.

[Zhade]

66. I demand a MONEY-BACK GUARANTEE!

Too much faith equals too much inaction. Remember that.

[and-justice-for-all]

61. I think die offs are a natural event...

like major plagues that attempt to curve populations, it happens with other species too. The Planet has a cycle and fixes itself, it can and will do so again but his time we assisted in speading the process up and cutting our own throats.

There will still be people or course and I hope that they pay close attention to the event and why it happened, which they will actually learn from.

It would be a good idea to learn how to farm and cultivate your own food, either in a small community or for your self. We will see bartering return in the place of currency and what will in effect be a return to a precarbon based fuel era.

[dysfunctional press]

29. cheap oil is the reason for the overpopulation, as well...

when it goes away, so will the excess people.

[Virginia Dare]

34. Should we have another "black death" like plague..

yes, billions will die. During the 14th century bubonic plague, China lost 1/2 it's population, Europe 1/3 of it's population, and Africa 1/8 of it's population. Translate that into modern day numbers, and it's pretty frightening. It will happen again, that is for sure, it is part of the cycle of life on earth.

[Gregorian]

42. I appreciate you.

If I had a sentence or two that I could use to sum up my experiences and feelings about this, it would make this reply easier.

Since a young child, I have been highly distraught over this issue. Most people do not see it. I saw it. It simply blinded me. Maybe it was the orchards turning to concrete and cars. Beauty turning to ugliness. But more than anything, the total absence of awareness and for lack of a better word, sacrifice. Everyone seems to want a kid or three. Why, I'll never know.

I used to be a roofing contractor. And to clarify things, I refused to do "new" jobs. Although the new jobs are simple and easy. There is no way I was going to contribute to further ruination of a beautiful place. Out of all of the people I met, out of all of the jobs I did, there was one man and his wife who saw it. I mean, it wasn't even fifty fifty. It was one couple out of literally thousands. Everyone was running to soccer games, and changing diapers, and driving here and driving there. Kids, kids, kids. I call it a crisis way of living. But these two who were older, also saw the nightmare. They wanted to spare the world another person. It was like an oasis in a dry desert. And I was totally unprepared. Especially since they were older. Even the younger generation is still just slowing down from three kids to maybe two or one. Not good enough to make an impact on what is coming.

Anyways, it's always a lift to hear that someone out there gets it. And cares.

[Johonny]

49. pretty much

The biggest problem facing humans is over population and the resulting pressure it produces on the distribution of resources. A problem most humans have no interest in solving and thus the current environment is going down.

[Kazak]

19. Rec'd, but...

I'd say global warming and peak oil are inextricably linked...

[Ezlivin]

22. Peak Oil could accelerate global warming

Ironically the burning of fossil fuels not only contributes to rising CO² levels, but adds aerosols to the atmosphere. These aerosols create what is known as global dimming which cools the earth.

When we begin to reduce the amount of fuels we are burning there will be a concomitant reduction in aerosols. Global dimming will be reduced and global temperatures will rise much quicker.

[DangerDave921]

27. Danish moose

I saw an article today talking about how moose belch and fart (their word) an amazing amount of methane into the atmosphere. I forget the numbers, but it was equivalent of a ton of driving.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has truly figured out how all of this climate change and energy usage are going to break out in the long run. The science is so complex that the best we can do is make educated guesses.

[semillama]

30. But our educated guesses so far seem to have been too optimistic

which is the scary part. It's enough to really make me rethink having kids.

Look at Arctic sea ice cover predicitions, and how every year they keep getting revised and the revisions don't keep up with the reality of ice cover depletion.

Consider how bad a drier climate in the Amazon will be for the current global environment. A drier Amazon means more frequent fires, which may result in the release of so much CO2 that it would cancel out our attempts to reduce fuel emissions.


It all makes me think that the possible solution posted here a couple months back, of shooting particulates into orbit over the polar regions to produce global dimming, sounds better and better.

[slackmaster]

35. Peak Oil will provide excellent motivation for us to do what we should be doing right now

Commit the nation to a mission of developing renewable alternative energy sources.

Stop buying foreign oil.

Recall all military personnel from every other country immediately, and put them to work on the project.

[DangerDave921]

38. Um

And what are military personnel, i.e., the foot soldiers, going to do to develop renewable energy sources? Do they have training in that? I'd rather have scientists and engineers working on the problem.

And what is the favored renewable alternative energy source nowadays? Let's be honest -- wind is not going to run our whole country. Nor are water-wheels or ethanol. What is our best plan now? If we're going to stop buying foreign oil, we will need sufficient energy to replace it. All of it. How do we do that?

I'd like to see more of a push toward nuclear. Makes more sense to me than oil or coal.

[slackmaster]

39. While R&D proceeds, they can drill for oil, dig up coal, construct solar and wind farms

Whatever it takes.

I'd like to see more of a push toward nuclear. Makes more sense to me than oil or coal.

They're not mutually exclusive. Personally I think most electrical generation should be solar (PV or related).

[DangerDave921]

40. Solar

I really don't know a whole lot about solar power. Can it really run an entire factory? A city? I just don't know how efficient it is.

I saw a special on t.v. showing Larry Hagman's house. JR from Dallas. He has HUGE solar panels on his property that cut his energy cost to almost zero. It was really awesome. But then in the middle of the show, he said that it cost him $750,000.00 to install the whole system. Wow. How much savings do you need each year for the system to pay for itself? Plus, the set-up was massive. I don't see how the ordinary homeowner with 1/4 acre could even put something like that up.

[slackmaster]

41. It's getting more efficient all the time

My house has more than enough roof space, with proper southern exposure, to support 4 KW worth of PV panels.

YMMV depending on latitude and amount of cloud cover.

Last time I checked, at current rates for electric power it would be about a 20-year payback. A Peak Oil scenario would surely raise the rates and shorten the payback. OTOH waiting for the price of hardware to come down would also reduce the payback time. OTOOH as more people go solar, demand for the hardware would raise the price and limit availability, which increases the payback.

[Tesha]

44. "Efficiency" isn't really the right term. "Cost effectiveness" is more like it.

Because the "fuel" for PV systems is, essentially, free,
"Efficiency" isn't really the right term. "Cost effectiveness"
is more like it.


> Last time I checked, at current rates for electric power it
> would be about a 20-year payback.

This figure is certainly in the right ballpark for current
technology. Mr. Tesha and I have figured that a PV conversion
would cost us something in the range of $25-35K and our annual
electric bill runs about $2,000 (with our consumption dropping
but rates rising), so we've been giving it some serious thought.

Tesha

[DangerDave921]

52. But

What are you going to do when Mr. Simpson builds that big dome over your town to block out the sun???

[slackmaster]

55. I have the solution to that all figured out

I will run my solar panels only at night.

[Tesha]

59. Presumable, you mean Mr. Montgomery Burns, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. (NT)

[daninthemoon]

47. This will only happen if we elect a non-corporatist president.

[slackmaster]

48. That's why I am considering supporting Dennis Kucinich

If we can't have Al Gore.

[daninthemoon]

64. I support Kucinich, but look what the Dem powers did to him and

his impeachment resolution. He's winning polls, but the "powers" don't want him. I hope "we the people" get a chance to have our votes count.

[Bushwick Bill]

43. This is a plateau, folks!

K&R

[Uncle Joe]

50. Nothing is minor about global warming and I believe we still have enough oil and coal

in the ground to destroy life as we know it.

[slackmaster]

53. All the carbon in that oil and coal once belonged to living organisms

Think of the amount of living biomass that must have existed at any given time during the Mississippian and Pennsylvanian epochs.

[Uncle Joe]

57. Yes and I believe the dinosaurs survived for the tens or hundreds of millions of years

largely because they didn't burn oil and coal, thus destroying their own habitat. It's ironic that we can boast about the size of our brain compared to their's and yet it seems we won't come anywhere near surviving for so long as they did.

[Lorien]

54. NOTHING is major compared to global warming

were talking about our extinction, not just warmer temperatures.It will effect EVERY other issue we have.

[DangerDave921]

56. Yes there is

I am more afraid of a car accident or a heart attack or getting cancer than I am afraid of global warming at this point. Granted, I'm taking the short-sighted view of my own life time but hey -- my life is pretty important! :)

[slackmaster]

58. GW isn't going to make us go extinct

Our failure to adopt the Metric System is much more dangerous.

[xiamiam]

60. very good..thanks..nt

[robertpaulsen]

63. Peak Oil & Global Warming are flip sides of the same coin.

They're both about civilization destroying itself through overconsumption of fossil fuels, one does it economically and the other environmentally.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. The perfect storm of global warming and expensive oil

will make all those smug declarations "But I need to drive my SUV from my new trophy house to my job 50 miles away" seem like the madness that they are.