*******Official Mukasey Nomination Meeting Thread 3******

[bdamomma]

cspan3 http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code...

[Bluebear]

1. SCHUMER you are a total disgrace,

[L. Coyote]

9. He made very good points that I agree with. Pragmatism is essential in a Congress.

That said, the other Dems are so very right! What we have here is a situation not of our choosing. We did not steal Florida in 2000. Bush did! We are not the criminals who committed the war crimes. We did not install the current Acting AG!

Schumer, et.al. are using the same info I posted yesterday in this thread:
"USA Torture Day" A MASS waterboarding protest organized nationally for the Mukasey vote? ??
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2208375

[Solly Mack]

2. I'm about to UpChuck

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. Durbin up now.

[bdamomma]

4. this is soo bad, they are putting this guy in to fill a vacant spot.

and on top of that, he is covering *'s criminal acts. This will bite us back it will in time.

[Blackhatjack]

5. I have problems with Mukasey that go beyond just the issue of 'waterboarding'...

... it goes to the bottom line of whether he will be the official shill for the WH and their evil minions, or whether he will stand up for the Constitution and rule of law in favor of the American People when faced with obvious criminal activity by this Administration.

[Solly Mack]

7. Me too

[babylonsister]

8. By not condemning torture, he already is the official shill. He's doing

the dim one's bidding even before he's confirmed.

[Solly Mack]

11. Precisely...it's all part and parcel

[bdamomma]

10. no I really think he is a * loyal.

that is why he did not want to say if waterboarding was torture or not, cause if he did, then * and Cheney would be held as war criminals.

[L. Coyote]

What else can you expect if Bush gets to do the nominating? That's the problem

that Schumer and Feinstein are confronted with, plus the fact that Kiesler is Acting AG right now!

[cascadiance]

26. I EXPECT our congressional leadership to use other means to *encourage* better picks...

If our congressional leadership were SERIOUS about holding this president and his administration accountable and had impeachment on the table, they might have more power to force Bush to either allow for a special prosecutor along with Mukasey, or to pick someone else that the congress likes more. Congress WAS able to do so back in the days of Nixon, when they got a special prosecutor appointed as part of approving a new AG then.

With the way they are knuckling under on so many other issues/legislation, it's no wonder that the president thinks he can nominate anyone he chooses, and for the congress to *rationalize* that Mukasey is as good as they are going to get.

As was pointed out earlier, with the trickiness that Reid had in dealing with Wyden's hold on an appointment, these folks aren't stupid. They've done tricky maneuvers before. That's why I believe they are complicit and thinking that we won't notice that they are such.

[L. Coyote]

36. Schumer recommended Mukasey. Otherwise, you are so right. Where is the

special prosecutor focus?

Could it be that we already have one? Are Bush and Cheney already the focus of prosecution? I'm beginning to suspect so.

[bdamomma]

6. more recs please

[rodeodance]

12. Topic subject The 'ticking time bomb scenario' as justification for waterboarding is disingenuous...

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject The 'ticking time bomb scenario' as justification for waterboarding is disingenuous...
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2216056#2216056
2216056, The 'ticking time bomb scenario' as justification for waterboarding is disingenuous...
Posted by Blackhatjack on Tue Nov-06-07 10:23 AM

There is no reason to believe that use of 'torture' will yield the information you seek in such a scenario.

Brownback just said 'you go just as far as you can to save AMerican lives.' Ridiculous. How is torture a reliable method of acquiring accurate information --and if it does not, how is that going to save American lives.

The entire premise if wrong.

[Solly Mack]

14. Excellent point

[rodeodance]

15. Topic subject Sam Brownback: Fascism with a homespun accent

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject Sam Brownback: Fascism with a homespun accent
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2216047#2216047
2216047, Sam Brownback: Fascism with a homespun accent
Posted by MrScorpio on Tue Nov-06-07 10:23 AM

Sieg Heil, Y'all!

[rodeodance]

16. Topic subject Lindsey Graham (R-Self Loathing Torturer) has been the only honest speaker

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject Lindsey Graham (R-Self Loathing Torturer) has been the only honest speaker
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2216145#2216145
2216145, Lindsey Graham (R-Self Loathing Torturer) has been the only honest speaker
Posted by Atman on Tue Nov-06-07 10:35 AM

Ironically, Graham seems to have been the only honest member of the committee so far when he admitted that he didn't want to praise Feinstein because, after all, this was just political and he'd catch hell back home.

We're watching a circus. The vote has already been taken. The committee members are just getting their face-time in for the evening news broadcasts. This truly is purely political, with little or no regard for the enforcement of the rule of law -- the very thing the JUDICIARY committee is supposed to oversee.

.

[rodeodance]

18. Topic subject Regarding Mukasey: Now that it's over, I'm going to hope for the best.

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject Regarding Mukasey: Now that it's over, I'm going to hope for the best.
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2215969#2215969
2215969, Regarding Mukasey: Now that it's over, I'm going to hope for the best.
Posted by cali on Tue Nov-06-07 10:15 AM

True, I don't have high expectations, but I don't agree with those who say he's worse than Gonzo. Gonzo was a longtime enforcer for bushco. It was always a given that the only interests he'd be looking out for were bush's.

Mukasey does not have that relationship or history with bush. He as actually come out in opposition to busho in Padilla.

The Justice Department is a bloody mess. He can't do a worse job of politicizing it than gonzo. Maybe he'll be better than I expect.

[rodeodance]

19. Topic subject Ex-POW McCain denounces torture as U.S. policy (and has a retort for Giuliani)

Forum Name Latest Breaking News
Topic subject Ex-POW McCain denounces torture as U.S. policy (and has a retort for Giuliani)
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3055815#3055815
3055815, Ex-POW McCain denounces torture as U.S. policy (and has a retort for Giuliani)
Posted by DeepModem Mom on Tue Nov-06-07 10:03 AM

Source: Los Angeles Times

Ex-POW McCain denounces torture as U.S. policy

Judge Michael Mukasey seems to be well along the path to Senate confirmation as attorney general despite his refusal to declare waterboarding a form of torture. But, campaigning in Iowa today, former POW John McCain says he intends to continue talking about the procedure, which involves placing a prisoner on his back, head down on an inverted board, covering his face with a wet towel and pouring water on him. It is said to produce the intense sensation of drowning.

At an Iowa Falls event, The Times' Aaron Zitner heard the Arizona senator criticize Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani for saying, in McCain's words, that waterboarding could be used under certain circumstances. "Now, my friends," McCain said in his familiar speech pattern, "waterboarding is torture . . . No mistake about that."

He also said, "We have to have the moral high ground," and said use of waterboarding hurts the United States' reputation worldwide. The procedure is said to have been used a handful of times on hardened Al Qaeda prisoners. (NOTE: But what do we really know about the extent of its use?)....

Asked by one reporter about Giuliani mocking sleep deprivation as a harsh interrogation technique and comparing it to running for president, McCain referenced a fellow Vietnam POW who was chained to a stool for 10 days and then unchained for one day and then chained again for 10 more days, according to the senator. "Ask him," McCain demanded, "if that has any relation to running for president."

Read more: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2007/11/torture.html

[rodeodance]

27. Topic subject Mukasey Is (Much) Worse Than Gonzales

Forum Name Latest Breaking News
Topic subject Mukasey Is (Much) Worse Than Gonzales
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3055753#3055753
3055753, Mukasey Is (Much) Worse Than Gonzales
Posted by nebula on Tue Nov-06-07 09:34 AM

Source: The Nation

...Like Gonzales, Mukasey refuses to accept that the president of the United States must abide by the laws of the land, beginning with the Constitution. In fact, the nominee to replace the worst Attorney General since Calvin Coolidge forced Harry Micajah Daugherty to quit rather than face impeachment is actually takes a more extreme position in defense of an imperial presidency than did Gonzales.

When questioned by Judiciary Committee chair Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont and Constitution sub-committee chair Russ Feingold, D-Wisconsin, during the key hearing on his nomination, Mukasey embraces an interpretation of presidential authority so radical that it virtually guarantees more serious abuses of power by the executive branch.

There is no question that one of the ugliest manifestations of that expansion of authority involves the Bush-Cheney administration’s embrace of extraordinary rendition and torture as tools for achieving its ends. But those who focus too intensely on Mukasey’s troubling dance around the waterboarding question make a mistake. Even if the nominee were to embrace the Geneva Conventions — not to mention the 8th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution — and condemn all forms of torture as the cruel and unusual punishment that they are, he would still be an entirely unacceptable choice to serve as the nation’s chief law-enforcement officer...

...Under questioning from Feingold, Mukasey endorsed the administration’s argument that congressional attempts to define appropriate surveillance strategies and techniques could infringe inappropriately on presidential authority...

Read more: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/05/5034 /


Mukasey makes Gonzales look like the Easter Bunny.

[bdamomma]

13. OMG, what a response for Guantanamo Bay.

OMG, he is a * loyal.

[Solly Mack]

17. Nothing but...he's nothing but a Bushie

[spanone]

20. Now, which Senator has threatened a filibuster?? Any?

[babylonsister]

33. Nope. Not a one. nt

[L. Coyote]

21. Are the monkeys over at the zoo hearing this? Sen. Cardin is great!!!

[bdamomma]

22. Cardin is angry, and shit I do not blame him.

[bdamomma]

23. Whitehouse up!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. Sheldon is up now. LOVE this man!

[rodeodance]

25. Topic subject The Geneva Convention DOES NOT say : You can't rip toenails out

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject The Geneva Convention DOES NOT say : You can't rip toenails out
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2215229#2215229
2215229, The Geneva Convention DOES NOT say : You can't rip toenails out
Posted by Solly Mack on Tue Nov-06-07 08:50 AM

Neither does the revised War Crimes Act of 1996 - revised to accommodate Bush's practice of torture -the original War Crimes Act said ANY breach of the Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention was a violation.

Additional source stating the WCA of 1996 has been revised to reflect the changes Bush wanted so he could continue his torture program.

The revised WCA of 1996 says any "grave" breach is a violation of Common Article 3 - and what constitutes a "grave breach" is now to be defined by Bush.

The Convention Against Torture doesn't say you can't.
The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 doesn't say you can't.
The Military Commissions Act of 2006 doesn't say you can't.

None of the above state that a person can't:

- rub a detainees face in feces.
- stack naked detainees in pyramids
- use dogs to intimidate and terrorize detainees
- hang detainees from the ceiling by their shoulders



So I guess none of the above count as torture or 'outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment'.

What's that you say? The above fall under the categories of torture and 'outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment'?

Oooh..

But let's say I wanted to do those things anyway - couldn't I just claim they weren't prohibited because no law or treaty explicitly spells out each and every form of torture or 'outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment' that can be thought of? - so that gives me a lot of leeway on what I can do, yes?

And if someone says what I am doing is illegal, how can I truly be held accountable if the law and treaties didn't say, explicitly, that I couldn't do it? If they didn't spell out each and every way a person can be tortured or degraded or humiliated, how can you say I'm torturing them because I rip their toenails out?


After all, you didn't say I couldn't rip their toenails out - you only said I couldn't torture them.

And if toe-nails grow back they aren't really being mutilated, so you can't say I'm mutilating them either.


This is precisely the logic - defense - Bush is using about water-boarding.

And people are falling for it. Worse, some in Congress are playing along with it.

If Bush can make Congress continuously define torture, then Bush will continuously use any and all forms of torture and then claim it's not torture because the laws and treaties didn't spell it out as torture.

It's a game to get away with torturing.


And people are falling for it. Worse, some in Congress continue to play along with it.


People have the capacity for coming up with all manner of ways to abuse and torture other people - of ways to enact 'outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment' - so stating every single way a person can be tortured or abused or degraded or humiliated is impossible.

Playing Bush's game of - define inhuman, define cruel, define torture, define humiliating, define degrading, define abuse - does nothing but enable him to continue his war crimes.


Stop falling for it.

[Solly Mack]

28. That's because we DO torture and we DO lie about it

That's why people around the world think that

[L. Coyote]

37. What this nation needs is a mirror with an objective filter. We have no clue

about how we act in the rest of the world, and how we are perceived.

We are not just torturers, we are killers, and we need to realize that simple fact.

[Solly Mack]

38. Too true, L. Coyote

too damn true

[Gregorian]

The voice of reason, common sense, intelligence, is up. Whitehouse.

I expect all members of Congress to be as prepared and honest and diligent as Senator Whitehous.

A great man.

[L. Coyote]

29. Sen. Whitehouse raises the waterboard question and was Mukasey prepped by the WH.

A voice of reason. Why doesn't some of this ever rub off on the Rs?

What is the meaning of this nomination proceeding, a torture rubber stamp? I too worry about that, but now much less so thanks to these voices of reason and clarity.

Indeed, we have witnessed a "slow and sickening slide" of the Bush administration from that vision of a great light of reason on a hill.

[rodeodance]

30. Sen. WHitehouse "under Bush, USA is on a sickening downward spiral from

the City on the Hill under previous adm.)

[bdamomma]

31. oh god, Senator Whitehouse was so right.

I really cry for this country our country, we have got to do something.

Code Pink is there.

[rodeodance]

32. thanks alyce and REC

[bdamomma]

34. your welcome

and that's it guys, now to the House for Dennis Impeachment HR333.

[MiniMe]

35. Thanks for taking over Alyce

Sorry I missed Cardin, he is my Senator.

[Blaze Diem]

39. crosspost: should have posted it here I guess: Feinsteins Answer:

"Feinstein, D-Calif., said her vote for Muksaey's confirmation came down in part to practicality. If Mukasey's nomination were killed, she said, Bush would install an acting attorney general not subject to Senate confirmation and make recess appointments to fill nearly a dozen other empty jobs at the top of Justice"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071106/ap_on_go_co/senate_mukasey
-------------


crosspost from GD.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2216393