Everyone is scared of endorsing Dennis Kucinich.

[undeterred]

That's how pathetic most of our Democrats are. Its not just that they don't have his moral and political courage- they can't even bring themselves to acknowledge it in public. What do they think is going to happen. Are they going to look worse than they already look? And how could that happen?

[MADem]

1. No, they aren't "scared." They don't AGREE with all of his stances on the issues.

Get over it.

[fenriswolf]

2. which "stances" dont "they" agree with

i agree with almost all of his policies and i think so do a majority of americans.

[progpen]

5. Exactly.

[MADem]

11. Let's start with the "Department of Peace." nt

[Karenina]

19. Sounds good to me!

250 military adventures since WW2 and -0- resulting in functioning democracies DESPITR their billings.

[MADem]

23. And because it sounds good to you, that's why it remains a minority idea.

It would be "nice," but it ain't happening. You are living in a dream world if you think it will.

[Karenina]

37. Every party has a pooper

that's why we invited you
PARTY POOPER
SUPER DUPER

:silly:

[undeterred]

40. ...

:popcorn: :beer: :popcorn:

[Karenina]

49. Is that a Guinness you're drinking?

Can you fetch me one, too?? Lawsamitey, last time I went to the local IRISH PUB they tole me they don't serve Guinness no mo and tried to pawn off some "Becher(?)" swill on me. I demanded a taste first. It war PLUM ARWFUL!!! Pass that popcorn, bitte.

[undeterred]

59. You can imagine it to be whatever you like.

Guinness makes me gag. I'll have a root beer with a scoop of french vanilla ice cream, please. :hi:

[MADem]

63. Bwahahahaha!!!!

Thanks for proving my point!!

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[slowry]

42. Whoa, slow down -- don't be too progressive, now! n/t

[rpannier]

44. The Department of Peace under scrub would still be filled with people who see the world

the same as rummy, scrub, cheney, et al.

It really accomplishes nothing. Except create a new level of beauracracy.

Besides...It's the State Department's responsibility to help spread peace.

[burythehatchet]

51. He asked for an "issue"

[MADem]

64. The creation of said entity IS an issue. Anything that involves expenditure of taxpayer funds is.NT

[burythehatchet]

73. Well in your opinion, sure.

But the underlying issue is how America deals with the rest of the world. Since the State Dept has been as corrupted as the DOD, America really has no diplomatic influence anymore. Further complicating matters is the fact that brownshirted drones have been planted throughout the rank and file. We only found about the DOJ, but if they were willing to corrupt the entire legal foundation of the country imagine what they have done to other agencies, especially the ones designed to protect consumers and labor.

A department of peace appeals to me a great deal.. It would essentially do what the State dept ought to have been doing but didn't. I would love to see a cabinet level position representing America's efforts to foster peace and understanding around the world.

I know, I'm a bleeding heart, starry eyed liberal. Proudly so.

[MADem]

76. No, that's not an opinion, and that IS the issue. When a candidate wants to take

taxpayer's money and create a whole new bureaucracy with it, and shift assets, that IS the issue.

Brownshirted drones? Planted throughout the rank and file? If you mean GOP stooges, sure. But they're POLITICAL appointees, and they are easily identified, with a quick call to civilian personnel, even if they try to transition to career posts--and good luck with that shit. It's not like people don't know who they are. Even though the civil service is big, it's a small universe, and reputations have a way of trailing behind one like a heavy fart.

State has operated brilliantly under Democratic presidents, and it will so do again. State is only as good as the Secretary in charge.

The idea is superfluous and pandering. And it's a waste of money.

IMO.

[burythehatchet]

77. I see it more more as an instrument, but tell me, how much has Dennis

invested in that particular idea compared to the other issues he's been involved with? Where do you stand on the issues that are being debated today? He tried to impeach Cheney. He's doing what I want him to. His positions on things like healthcare and Iraq anre identical to mine. How they compare with yours?

[MADem]

79. IF he is doing what you want him to do, fine. Just please step back from the

cadre of people who insist that it can't possibly be that Dennis isn't getting support because people simply aren't behind him, they don't see him as a capable LEADER, a big picture guy, that his ideas are Pollyannaish and half baked, but because they're AFRAID, as the OP postulated.

I don't want to get into a debate about issues, because issues aren't the only thing, indeed, not even the main thing, that sinks Kucinich.

I see Kucinich as a guy with a lot of talk, and insufficient walk. I don't see him as a good leader who could control a large staff, a cabinet, and deal with world leaders in a convincing fashion. I find him disorganized on talk shows, he clearly means well but he isn't a compelling communicator. He speaks in a hesitant, insecure fashion and he comports himself timidly.

I don't find him confidence-inspiring as a world leader or a manager. As a member of a larger team, like the House, sure--but he's no pack leader. This is a judgment call, and you have every right to differ.

People don't just make up their minds based on laundry lists of issues--hell, if that were the case, the guy with the best polling would win. It's a much larger process than that, picking a candidate.

But as I said, step back from the "afraid" assertion that the OP threw out. The OP errs.

That argument, I'm 'afraid' is a nonstarter.

[youthere]

110. self-delete

[shanti]

114. what's wrong with that??

:shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

111. 1. Impeaching Cheney

Look at how many Democratic members of Congress voted to send Kucinich's impeachment bill back to committee to die rather than debate it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

116. 2. Banning civilian ownership of firearms

[undeterred]

3. You're right. Cheney is wonderful and should be our next president.

What was I thinking? :shrug:

[cali]

8. I haven't the vaguest idea what you were thinking, but to say

that not endorsing Dennis is somehow related to Cheney, is just bizarre.

[Blue-Jay]

13. Welcome to DU!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[MADem]

10. Gee, where did you get THAT enormous, steaming load of flame-laden shit from what I said? nt

[warren pease]

35. Here's what they don't agree with:

On the immediate agenda:

Reinstating Articles 1, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 of the Bill of Rights NOW
Impeachment of Cheney NOW, then Bush and maybe more to follow
Single-payer, universal-access health care NOW
Repealing the 1996 Telecom Act NOW
Getting serious about animal rights NOW
Getting out of Iraq NOW
Curbing US imperialism before it causes any more damage NOW
Starving the pentagon NOW
Banning private armies on US soil NOW
Reinstating Habeas Corpus NOW
Repealing the Patriot Act(s) and the Military Commissions Act NOW
Ending the drug war NOW


And some things that might take a bit longer:

Supporting and promoting unionization in the Walmart economy
Protecting women's right to choose
Ridding the federal benches of wingnut judges
Public financing of campaigns


It seems the usual cadre of DLC demolican/republicrats hates this stuff. I would too if I were being paid to support the status quo. However, as a small "d" democrat who remembers when the big "D" party stood for many of Kucinich's agenda items, I'm far beyond disgusted with these craven, complicit enablers for the corporatist world view which, put succinctly, is profits over all and humans can take a fucking walk.


wp

[undeterred]

38. you just reminded me how much I like the immediate agenda

but there are a lot of progressive politicians who like it too- and I haven't heard them endorse Dennis yet... I guess its all a game. If he suddenly starts doing well in the polls they'll all jump on board.

[Cronopio]

98. More like, if he starts doing well in the polls, they'll jump on him.

Just like another politician who believed in some of Kucinich's political heresies - Howard Dean.

I still vividly recall the circular firing squad he faced during the first primary debate in January 2004. Sharpton was practically laughing about it on stage.

[Kip Humphrey]

56. You forgot paper ballots for federal elections NOW

[warren pease]

61. Yup, I did forget. Fortunately, DK didn't. n/t

[MADem]

67. He has some off the page ideas, and

he's not 'solid' on choice either, he was against it (as recently as four years ago) before he was for it, though some like to overlook that (the same unthinking, simplistic types are convinced Ron Paul is swell because he doesn't like the war, but if they dug deeper, they'd see he's nestled in the pockets of big oil and gas). Kucinich also voted for a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit flag desecration in 2003--and funny, when Clinton tried to pass an act to prevent the same business, ONLY on federal property, to get around doing dangerous, poorly-thought-out amending of the Constitution, many of these same RABID Kucinich-ites were all over her for that. Interesting, hmmmm? And he waffles on 'prayer' issues, too. Must be that Catholic upbringing kicking in--it didn't kick in when it came to marriages, interestingly enough, though!

Your little list is very general, and doesn't denote HOW we get from the reality of here to your little foot-stomping "NOW."

But hey, whatever, you knock yourself out. Your fellah isn't going to win. No matter how many "smart" remarks you make to me, no matter how many pathetic little insults you toss.

I find that when people are unable to discuss a political difference constructively, they lash out in an immature way, like accuse people of being Cheney supporters, as I was upthread, or the childish stunt you pulled in your dramatic, excessively general, and dream-laden rant. These remarks, which you no doubt consider caustic and acerbic, are simply shitty debate--the kind of crap that one would toss out when one has NUTHIN' to bring to the table:

It seems the usual cadre of DLC demolican/republicrats hates this stuff.

Did it take you LONG to come up with that, hmmmmmm? Oh, cut me with a butter knife! Funny, the DLC never sent me a membership card. Darn.

And of course, that's followed by the bullshit fantasy that anyone who thinks Dennis Kucinich is a well meaning, not very cooperative, obstreperous, thrice-married ELF is somehow PAID to be mean to the guy, by some mysterious entity referred to as "The Man" no doubt:

I would too if I were being paid to support the status quo.

Gosh-a-rooney, I haven't been getting my check! Where do I file a complaint?

But like I said, knock yourself out.

Enjoy!!!

[warren pease]

75. It's not about you...

I wasn't implying that you're a DLC member or that you're getting checks from corporate status quo welfare queens. I was referring to the democratic party's so-called leadership, which wouldn't know a real leader if it bit the in their overstuffed wallets or purses.

My "little list" is very specific, despite your claim to the contrary. And how we get from "foot stomping" to implementation is quite simple: vote in progressives in the primaries, vote out blue dogs and other useless BushCo enablers -- starting with Pelosi, Hoyer, Emanuel and Reid -- and replace them with people who actually take their oath of office seriously when it calls on them to defend the Constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic.

You seem to be quite adept at reading between the lines and finding absolute hogwash. Cheney supporters? Dream laden rants? Stunts? Get real.

As to DK's position on flag "desecration," abortion and prayer issues: He seems to have seen the light on these stupid attempts to sanctify a piece of colored cloth; his position as pro-choice is firm; and his respect for the First amendment prohibits him getting very cozy with prayer in schools or any other wingnut attempt to break down the wall between church and state.

So I'm comfortable with him on those issues, and certainly his stands on Cheney's impeachment, getting out of Iraq immediately, getting rid of for-profit medicine and restoring all suspended Constitutional rights are points in his favor. They rest of these sorry corporate suck-ups wouldn't even commit to getting out of Iraq by 2013. Kucinich, on the other hand, said "Yeah, I've got a timeline. It's called now."

Even Ron Paul would bring radical change to traditional beltway politics, although it's not the kind of change that I'd necessarily support, except for his positions on Iraq, Iran and imperialism in general.

Kucinich, however, is three for three on those issues and reflects my positions on the litany I posted upthread.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you have some fantasy affiliation with the DLC or that big corporate bucks are rolling your way. Hell, why pay for something they're already getting for free from the millions of DLC boosters online and in mass media who just can't conceive of a politician who actually stands for something other than his own reelection.


wp


wp

[MADem]

78. Sure it is.

And if you weren't implying, you did a mighty fine job of implying while not implying, there.

As for Kucinich and his prayer/abortion/flag issues, my point was that he FLIP FLOPS. Gee, what candidates get excoriated for that? Who can never be forgiven, EVER? Whose evolutions are ignored when political points need to be made? There's more than one correct answer, now....Class? Anyone? Buehler?

If you read my post, and I think you skimmed, you'd see that the CHENEY reference had to do with a comment directed at me UPTHREAD, as I said. It's post 3, fwiw.

Ron Paul has gotten all his dough from Big Oil and Gas. He despises environmentalists and environmental regulations of ANY sort. He'd put oil rigs in national parks, he'd lease the parks to private industry. He wants to get rid of the IRS, Social Security, the Dept. of Education, and one of his key objections to the war is that it WASN'T DECLARED and we shoulda pacified the joint but good. Hell, get that oil for those cronies of his.

He'd shake up the Beltway all right. He'd DESTROY America. But say, he SAYS he's opposed to a war that we're losing, and suddenly, he's a fucking genius... :shrug:

As for politicians standing for something more than their own reelection....well, I seem to recall some folks complaining when Holy Joe ran for VP AND his Senate seat during the Gore Election Theft...and we actually see that happening in this race, too.

Kucinich is an interesting voice, but he's not gonna win. I actuallly thought he ought to have been at that Iowa dinner tonight, even though I, and the folks running the Iowa caucuses, know he isn't going to win. I have no problem with his voice, but I do have a problem with his supporters casting aspersions on those of us who live in the real world and can understand exactly what his level of support nationally actually IS. He's not gonna win. He's going to get low single digits--if he's lucky.

Don't kid yourself, Dennis is a practical man--he may stand for something, but he also wants to enhance his national profile, AND he wants to keep that seat of his--see, he's running for two seats in 08. One he'll win, most likely, but the Presidency he won't.

[backscatter712]

82. They don't agree with defending the Constitution or holding our War Ciminal in Chief accountable.

I suppose that being in opposition to war crimes makes us moonbats, doesn't it?

No, I'm not going to get over it.

[MADem]

96. No, being in opposition to war crimes does not make you moonbats.

But way to suggest an accusation that wasn't made, there! That 'faux persecution' always envigorates!

No one wants you to "get over" anything. You go on think and believe as you please--really, NO ONE is stopping you!

But understand that there actually ARE some people who don't support Kucinich for other reasons, besides being "scared" to support him.

That was the thesis of this thread at the outset, and it's just not true.

[Virginia Dare]

117. Why don't you call them anti-American while you're at it?

sound familiar?..:eyes:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

103. Or they realize...

...that he has zero potential as a candidate.

[Clark2008]

113. That's actually the problem, isn't it?

That they don't agree with his stances shows they really don't care about serving the American public since the vast majority of his positions - more so than any other candidate - actually help the working poor and middle class America and NOT corporations and health insurance agencies.

[treestar]

4. Conformity

is the bane our our society

We are so scared to step out and say anything that will shock other people

If we could get over it and say our true opinions. . . . . . . . .

[undeterred]

6. This man is something special- he's like a gift, ours for the taking

we are fools if we don't receive him as president. Someone like him doesn't come along very often.

[cgrindley]

14. Oh yeah, he's "special" all right (nt)

[Cronopio]

99. The DLC agrees with you, in a way.

He is a gift to them, someone to rally against.

[progpen]

7. "If we could get over it and say our true opinions."

Then the NeoCon Fundy freakshow would have this country locked down and under marshal law faster than you can say,
"Marshal Law? Not in my country..."

[stevedeshazer]

30. Spelling correctly would help

Martial. Look it up.

[progpen]

32. Whups

[undeterred]

48. You mean marital law?

Are they enforcing that these days? :hi:

[hootinholler]

65. Only if your gay. n/t

[defendandprotect]

9. Of course we are --- we love him, but he's too SHORT -- !!!!!

I asked long ago --- is Dennis a vanity issue?

Or do we just have to contend with Repug attacks on him???

[undeterred]

16. But George Snuggleupapuss is too short and ABC bought him a highchair

and elevator shoes and he married an actress and got his own TV show- so this proves shortness can be overcome.

[defendandprotect]

18. No -- it proves that shortness in George Stepo cannot be overcome!!!!

And, unlike Dennis, there is nothing lovable or even likeable about him ---
nor has he ever seen a UFO ---

A UFO would turn from him ---

[undeterred]

25. well, monica and bill started their fling in his office

thats about the only interesting thing about him

[defendandprotect]

34. George's office . . . ?

Didn't know that --- ???

And, I made it a point not to listen to anything on TV about the romance . . .
but I did read Monica's book --

She would have been better off had she been abducted by a UFO ---

but I liked her ---

[undeterred]

43. Before he went to ABC he was part of the Clinton WH

-like Josh on West Wing, but not as smart as Bradley Whitford. I believe it was in his office that Ms. Lewinsky first flashed her thong underwear to POTUS. Lot of nerve, that girl.

[defendandprotect]

53. I wasn't sure if you meant George's office or Dennis' . .. !!!

Never caught up with West Wing --- my son loved it --

Nothing can make me like George . . .


Look Bill is hot --- needless to say he's going to attract a huge share of females ---
government was closed; games are going to be played ---
Monica was there and interested --- evidently Bill is always interested.

We might even think that the GOP may have sent her --- ??

One of those happy coincidences for the GOP --- ???

[undeterred]

57. I was at a Clinton event last October

Standing on some risers with a bunch of other middle aged women- and when he came onto the stage the women went wild. I thought it was just one of those things people say about him, but it is true- all women find Clinton irresistible. They almost had to turn the fire sprinlers on it got so hot in there.
:wow:

[defendandprotect]

62. It was so hot, it actually came across on TV --- my daughter was pretty young at the time . ...

and we were both reacting to him --

I remember he brushed the hair of a little girl who had been standing too close to a candle behind her --- and my daughter just melted!!!

Lately, I've thought I know too much about him to disregard it --
but, I'm not sure!!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

70. I learned that BIll is unbelieveably charismatic way back in '92

when he was running for president.

He could make a speech and I was 50 or 100 feet away and all I could do was babble like a complete idiot. Like I'd been bashed between the eyes with a two by four.

He has more charisma than the law allows.


He is truly a rock star!

[defendandprotect]

92. Clinton was a "bad, naughty boy" about overturning Welfare guarantees ---

and instituting trade agreements and a few other things ---

[cgrindley]

12. I endorsed him in Imaginationland... I hear his running mate

is a dragonpixie. I hear that they have quite the platform planned including adding fifty quintillion dollars to SETI's budget. Unfortunately, he's running against Ronald Reagan and John Wayne, so he'll probably end up losing there, too.

[man4allcats]

15. Re:"Everyone is scared of endorsing Dennis Kucinich."

I'm not. And "what do they think is going to happen?" Well, if Democrats don't start acting like Democrats, they might lose their base in 2008. As many here and elsewhere have noted, Republicans will turn out in droves to vote against Hillary. If disenfranchised Dems stay home, the ReThugs could actually win without having to steal one in 2008. We need a candidate we can support.

We need Dennis Kucinich!

[undeterred]

28. Amen.

[Cronopio]

100. You mean voting on principle instead of on tactics is the best political tactic?

You mean voting according to your best optimism instead of everyone else's calculated cynicism isn't throwing your vote away?

Nawwwww.

[napi21]

17. I'm not scared! I have a number of reasons for not chosing Dennis

as my primary candidate, but fear sure isn't one of them!

I think he has his head in the sand with his "Dep't of Peace!"

Short of a presidential order (and I dont think it could be done that way) there's no way he'd ever get his HC plan passed! He could have a 100% Dem Congress and still wouldn't get that radical of a change through!

End World poverty? Yea right.

Dennis is a great guy, and his heart is in the right place, but he's terribly unrealistic.

[undeterred]

21. When I say everyone, I mean the people with "names"

that everyone waits to hear who they're endorsing. If Gore's not running we want to know where he's throwing his support. I'm certainly not saying anyone here is afraid of supporting Kucinich- the support here on DU is pretty strong. But I haven't heard any prominent Democrats endorse him. Why not?

And what on earth is wrong with a Department of Peace? We've been brainwashed to think war is normal. I am a pacifist and a Department of Peace sounds like someone who sees the world clearly to me.

[magellan]

24. How depressing

These things are certainly within our means as a nation of progressives. I'll vote for anyone who wants to stop war profiteers and world hunger, put an end to the MIC and corporate stranglehold on our government, and give everyone free healthcare. The alternative is more of the same, and frankly I'm done with it.

[datavg]

31. Nice...

...but not realistic. It's almost exactly what the McGovernites said in 1972.

And then McGovern lost forty nine states on Election Day. In the middle of a war just like this one.

Sound familiar?

Moreover, do you want that to happen again?

[magellan]

50. I'd rather not

...engage in psychic predictions and "what-ifs". They're the territory of cowards.

[datavg]

68. Yeah...

...that all sounds familiar, about as familiar as 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, 1988, 2000 and 2004.

Don't you want to win?

I've been watching campaigns for a long, long time. What's setting up is another half hearted attempt to nominate "a real Democrat" who will then be fed to the Republicans. It'll be like handing a raw steak to a pit bull.

And we'll end up with Giuliani or Romney. And it'll be your fault. Just like before.

Maybe we should just give you Kucinich. When he loses FIFTY STATES (and that would happen for sure), maybe the people who run the party would straighten up and fly right.

Then again, maybe not.

[magellan]

71. My fault, just like before?

Explain, please. Because it sounds very much to me like you're saying I'm responsible for elections I a) wasn't old enough to vote in and b) voted Dem in. So what're you trying to say again?

It'd be great if the people who run the party would straighten up and fly right. Unfortunately they aren't interested if it means denying themselves power and profit.

[datavg]

91. If Predictions...

...are the territory of cowards, then every political scientist I know is a coward.

And that's just stupid.

Larry Sabato isn't a coward. Pat Caddell isn't a coward. Pat Choate isn't a coward.

In your mind, the only people who aren't cowards are those who back candidates who can never be elected.

To listen to people here, one would have thought Ned Lamont had this huge base of support to keep Lieberman from running as an independent. In the end, it wasn't even close.

You should hear what Holy Joe has to say these days. He says the MoveOn.org crowd threatens to pull the party so far left that we could very well end up with another Republican in the White House.

And then they'll say it's voter fraud. Well, of course it's voter fraud. Every time the mentally ill left doesn't get what it wants, it's voter fraud.

Isn't that right?

I was at a Santa Clarita Democrats get together recently and when I mentioned San Francisco, all those ladies rolled their eyes and shook their heads. They said, point blank, those people do not represent what they are about.

And maybe this is the problem. The Democrats are two parties. This is why they can never agree on anything...

...which is what I've been saying for about ten years. The leftists need to become Greens and what remains afterward should realign and become a centrist entity like Labour in Britain or the Liberals in Canada.

This would explain why people vote for Ralph Nader as a spoiler, cycle after cycle.

[magellan]

104. Wow.

Point by point:

"In your mind, the only people who aren't cowards are those who back candidates who can never be elected."

You're not very good at mind-reading, either. Let me help you. The cowards are those who hold their nose instead of voting their conscience because they "fear the alternative". Coward status has nothing to do with whether a candidate is electable.

"To listen to people here, one would have thought Ned Lamont had this huge base of support to keep Lieberman from running as an independent. In the end, it wasn't even close."

Beg to differ, it WAS close and Lamont DID have a huge base of support. He would have won handily, too, if not for the cowards in his camp who ran with their hair on fire to vote for Lieberman. And they did that because a bunch of fearmongers from the Democratic right told them if they didn't, Schlesinger would win. In reality, Schlesinger was never a contender. Mugs.

"You should hear what Holy Joe has to say these days. He says the MoveOn.org crowd threatens to pull the party so far left that we could very well end up with another Republican in the White House."

See above. That fear tactic worked well for him CT. That you're regurgitating it as support for your argument tells me a lot.

"I was at a Santa Clarita Democrats get together recently and when I mentioned San Francisco, all those ladies rolled their eyes and shook their heads. They said, point blank, those people do not represent what they are about."

That's not exactly meaningful, coming from a place that is historically "red" and affluent. Tell me, how far right have you Dems in Santa Clarita shifted in order to try and win votes? Lots, it appears from your writing.

"The leftists need to become Greens..."

Experience tells me the Dems who use "leftist" as a pejorative would be more comfortable in the GOP.

"This would explain why people vote for Ralph Nader as a spoiler, cycle after cycle."

More likely, those people are just sick and tired of voting for a compromised party that no longer represents average working Americans and their concerns.

[datavg]

105. Man...

...we can trade barbs all day long, but nothing's gonna change. Until it realigns, the Democratic party will continue to be a political stepchild in most of the country and the Republicans will keep winning. That's the system. That's how it works.

Quite frankly, I don't have time for this. I'm too busy. I have a life.

Absolutely nothing will change for me. I'll keep working my 8-to-5 job in IT, saving fifteen percent of my gross for retirement plus my wife's pension and flying airplanes on the weekends. I'll keep complaining about the leftist nuts and flakes and the mentally ill retards that control the Democratic party...and then I'll get on with my life.

And you'll be back here beating your head against the wall, crying for something that ain't never happened before and sure as fuck isn't gonna happen anytime soon or even in my lifetime.

I'd say that pretty well covers it. Doncha think?

[magellan]

106. You know, it amazes me

You lay your life out for me like you think I'm SO far removed from it I couldn't POSSIBLY understand you. It's clear you have no ability for empathy, or as I like to say, putting yourself in another person's shoes. You don't even try to know me. You just assume everything about me: what I think, what I do.

What's the matter, afraid you might like me if you actually got to know me?

It might surprise you to learn that I, too, am married. My husband and I have run our own business -- overseas in his home country -- for several years. We aren't rich but we employ several people, work seven days a week to our own hours, and we get by fine. We'll retire more comfortably than most. We don't fly on weekends but we just returned from a trip to London. If you saw us on the street, you'd easily mistake us for someone from your part of the universe.

I have a life outside this place. But I care enough about the welfare of my country to come here and learn and take part in change...and yes, sometimes beat my head against the walls. Especially the walls thrown up by those who refuse to acknowledge anyone outside their own little world.

I'm not crying for what I can never have. I'm crying for what we ALL could have, if there were less people on their high horses trying to push others around and dictate the parameters of their lives to them.

Why do you do it? Fear? Or is it simple selfishness -- you like your comfy status quo so much you can't bear the thought of recognizing those who are suffering for it and want something more for themselves, too?

You didn't respond to anything I said in my last post. You took the coward's way out: shut down the conversation by pretending you're more important and can't be bothered wasting time with such trifles. You ooze condescension.

But I'm important. You'll feel it. And you'll regret your behavior one day. Or you'll continue to be part of the problem.

[datavg]

109. But...

...that is the point. You're pining for something that's never happened before and won't happen now.

That's precisely what you don't understand. This isn't Europe and isn't going to be.

Yes, I might like you if I got to know you but I don't know if you'd like me. I have a lot in common with people who might have been your parents or grandparents. My wife and I live in California but our mentality is one hundred percent Rust Belt. We're graduates of state universities (both of us the first college graduates in our families), we don't believe in taking money out of one's house for living expenses, etc. We buy American made products whenever we can. It costs more but we do it anyhow. I'll buy a pair of dress shoes about every three years or so and it's three hundred bucks but they last ten years. The guy at the Allen Edmonds outlet at Palm Springs starts drooling when I walk in the door.

Where we split is on the social issues. Homosexuality is an abomination. I don't want to see it. At all. Period. Abortion except where the mother's life is in danger is murder. Period. Even Donna Brazile says it's the abortion issue that's keeping Democrats from winning in the south because of the Evangelicals. This is ultimately why the party will eventually have to change. It will simply have no other choice. It will change or it will die.

The gun control issue is basically settled because of 9/11. I don't even see it discussed anymore, other than in the northeast and midwest. It's something most politicians are afraid to talk about and that's how I like it.

On the economic side, there may be some agreement. Public education in this country is in a mess, but I have to tell you that handing it over to the teacher's unions isn't the answer. It's been my experience that the average person who majors in Education isn't very bright. I'm not completely sure why Education attracts so many people who can't find their ass with both hands but it just does. They're not all that way but a fair percentage of them are. I can't think of any Education major I'd trust next to me in a small airplane. A few pharmacists, doctors, lawyers and engineers...yes. One of my previous instructors was a telecom engineer and my present one is a retired Ph.D. in Organic Chemistry. Schoolteachers? No. They just don't have what it takes. They don't have the nerves for it.

On healthcare, yeah...single payer looks better than this convoluted thing Hillary and her friends constructed in 1993. But guess what? You're never gonna get it done because there are too many powerful people who would be hurt by it. We're not a socialist country. The other alternative? We go back to fee-for-service in most cases and simply extend Medicare to those at a certain income level. Frankly, this isn't far from what we have right now and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the Canadians are slowly moving toward. A doctor friend in Texas told me point blank this is what we should do and it would work. My father sold insurance for thirty five years and when the kids got sick, off to the pediatrician we went and they'd bill us for what his company didn't cover. Problem solved. Although, if we keep hearing stories about insurance companies trolling medical records of people with heavy claims, we're ultimately gonna end up with single payer anyhow. That shit has to stop.

Another major bugaboo of mine is physical infrastructure. We're not investing in the country at all. Our interstate highways are a mess. Bridges in the northeast and midwest are falling down. Many of our airports are badly in need of expansion and modernization. Did you know you can't land two jets at the same time at Cleveland? The parallel runways are too close together! That's because the airport was designed in the 1950s. And don't even get me started about the air traffic control system. The controllers over at Long Beach are ill tempered most of the time for a very good reason. They're chronically overworked.

Southern California is an even bigger mess. There's isn't a single freeway here with the possible exception of the 105 going into LAX (too new) that doesn't need serious upgrading but we're too busy fighting wars and paying for people who shouldn't even fucking be here.

Above all, our tax system has to change. Are the rates going to go up? You betcha, but I suspect most people would be willing to pay more if they knew their money was being properly allocated and spent. I know I would be.

If I were President, my administration would look and sound a lot like Harry Truman's...and this is precisely what Lou Dobbs said we need in his interview with KVCR earlier this week. Do you realize that in 2004, we had two Yale graduates and two Skull and Bones guys? Where's the female state school graduate? Where's the highly qualfied minority? Obama is a great guy but he's so green. Hardly anyone in his past has anything bad to say about him.

[magellan]

118. Not at all

What I'm working (not pining) for is progress. Positive change. A reversal of the regressive, irrational and, frankly, vicious social and economic agendas the far right have fostered in this country over the last 15-20 years, and have the audacity -- the monumental hypocrisy -- to call "traditional American values".

I won't bother going over all the intangibles they've undone with their divisive pot-stirring. There isn't enough space in one post to list the damage they've done to the soul and character of this country. I can only say that on returning to this country in 2003 from several years in the UK, I was appalled by the changes that had occurred under Bush**. I'm STILL shocked by it, every day.

I've lived overseas before. But coming home was never like this. I'll give the Republicans one thing: trickle down economics doesn't work, but trickle down hate and fear does.

BTW, if I wanted to live in Europe I'd still be there. This country is my home. And I'd like it back.

Here's what's important to me, in no particular order:

• Healthcare for all. You point out we're not a socialist country. Neither are Canada, or the UK, or any of the other Western countries I know of that provide their citizens with national heath care. You're operating from a very Americanized and wrong-headed concept of the word "socialist". Churches are a form of socialism. Understand that and you'll begin to grasp your prejudice and put it into proper perspective.
  
• Increased spending on public education, including teachers' salaries. My father was a teacher, and a damned good one. He retired in the mid-80s. And he knows that teachers of his caliber are hard to find anymore because of Republican cut-backs on public education and the decimation of teachers' unions. You don't attract and keep any worker of value by paying them peanuts.
  
• Equal rights for the GLBT community. Your aversion to them isn't going to make them go away.
  
• I'm pro-choice. Protecting a woman's right to abortion has long been part of the Democratic Party platform, notwithstanding the influx of conservative Democrats, because Americans support it. A recent Harris poll shows 56% favor Roe v. Wade. And it's been at or above 50% support for 34 years.
  
• Separation of church and state. It needs to be strongly defended, and the damage done by this administration must be fixed. We live in a republic, not a theocracy.
  
• Deregulation -- end it. And while we're at it, lobbying laws need to be tightened up, and so-called "Free Trade" needs to be given the Deep Six. (It's a good idea very badly executed. Fair Trade is what "Free Trade" could have been without the greed.) Enough already of corporate corruption, monopolies, influence-pedaling, and neo-liberal global hegemony, all at the expense of the American consumer and worker. One of the worst things Clinton did was to sign NAFTA. The next worst thing in that vein was CAFTA.
  
• Reinstate the Fairness Doctrine. And start holding "news" sources accountable to it. The Fourth Estate is all but dead in this country. I learned more of import about what's going on in the world while I was visiting the UK than I could by watching a month's worth of CNN or MSNBC.
  
• Bring the troops home. NOW. As an ex-Navy person, I'm outraged by what the Republicans try to pass off as interest in keeping our military strong.
  
• Get serious about climate change and alternative fuel sources. NOW.
  

I've missed out some other very important things, but it's been a busy day and I'm tired. Those are the highlights. I'm pretty solidly Democratic even though I'm a lifelong Independent. I've always voted Dem, except once in my youth when voting was still novel and I didn't think much about the politics. I'm 45 now, so that should tell you how long ago that was.

I have to admit that as I was reading your post, I began to wonder if you aren't more Libertarian than Democrat. Have you taken the Political Compass test? I'd be interested to see where you land on it.

There's no past president I'd like to see resurrected, or whose style and agenda I think would be appropriate now. This country needs to stop moving backwards and once again embrace its destiny as a beacon of hope and progress. We haven't been there in a long, long time.

[Stardust]

84. Maybe election fraud tainted that election, too. n/t

[Karenina]

26. The current "realism"

is well on its way to getting BILLIONS of us killed off. Just sayin... :shrug:

[tekisui]

29. We need his unrealism to continue to make the others better.

We need his honesty and ideals to keep pulling this party in the correct direction. I believe he is decades ahead of where we as a country and are party are. But I am thankful that he is there to show us what elected representatives are capable of.


Go Dennis, never give up! Don't stop the good fight just because others aren't ready to fight it!!!

[undeterred]

33. He is highly evolved compared to most people in his political thought

and the reactions on this board to the idea of a "Department of Peace" show just how far ahead he is.
I hope we all live to see the day when this idea no longer sounds so strange.

[fenriswolf]

39. your right you're not scared, and you're the one with the head in the sand

1. dep of peace. how is this idea bad? a federal office designed to stop hostilities and resolve differences through political meetings and referendum through the global community. I would love people talking to each other rather then saying "do it my way or its WW3"

2. universal health care can be passed like any other bill we just need to get our representatives behind us. it is not some unattainable goal, just something the wh would like to remain unobtainable

[napi21]

66. It's already the job og the State Department to stop the hostilities

and resolve differences through negotiations AND work with the Global community!

People in general are AFRAID of MAJOR changes to their life! I see universal HC happening sometime in the future, but not in my lifetime! There are far too many people who would fight it right now. I'm not talking about only Pubs, but the general population. I really believe if a program is phased in where people are given options of chosing between several different HC plans...one of which is buing into the medicare system, many will stay where hey are, but they'll be watching to see how it goes. Little by little, they will see all their fears put aside. Just look at the Prescription Drug program. Yes, it has BIG flaws, but more and more seniors are saying, I'm a lot better than I used to be!

I've argued the universal plan idea with quite a few medical professionals. I hear comments like "The drug companies will slow down their research to a crawl!" or "Medical equipment manufacturers will stop researching and inventing new testing equipment because there just won't be any money in it anymore." I don't believe those agruments at all, but there's no way to prove it won't happen. It's again, the fear of the unknown!

I LIKE that Dennis is in the campaign because he doesn't worry about reprocussions when he talks. He just says what he believes, and he DOES cause the other candidates to pay attention to things they most likely would ignore. I just think he's a bit too far left to win the Presidency, at least NOW!

[undeterred]

87. I think we lose sight of what matters by worrying about electability

instead of our true values before the primary. DK represents my values almost perfectly and he has the courage to speak them. If everyone had the courage to get behind him instead of measuring his height over and over again (which is just a metaphor for his electbility) I believe he would win the nomination. This man is very popular and it is the waffling Dems who will keep us from getting this wonderful man in office, not the Republicans.

If we end up with one of the big three they will move furthur to the middle and be barely distinguishable from the Republican candidate. The war and business as usual will go on for 8 more years and it will make no difference that we've elected a democrat.

[PeaceNikki]

90. Um... getting elected matters a little bit, though.

Incremental change is better than none at all, in my opinion.

Dennis is not the Saviour and Messiah to all Dems the way that he appears to be to some. He's just not. Electablity aside, the majority of Dems just plain don't agree with many of his values (or yours, it appears). I know that's a heartbreaking reality to many here at DU, but it's true.

[MethuenProgressive]

20. I'll endorse him! (if he can get me a ride with ET)

Look, you're calling us/our party cowards. Do you really think that'll help Dennis?

[warren pease]

46. You'd prefer they be known as bought-and-paid-for corporatist enablers?

Cause it's got to be one or the other. There's no possible way the MAJORITY PARTY should spend its energy figuring out ever more creative excuses to cave to the madmen in the executive branch.

Dennis is neither a coward nor a corporatist, which are two very good reasons to support his candidacy. As to his agenda, see my post # 35 for details. If you can't find much to like there, then you're more than welcome to support one of the heavily bribed corporate suck-ups trying to pass as democrats.

For details on just how much money it takes to produce a compliant corporate suck-up, go here.


wp

[defendandprotect]

22. Wait a minute . . . I have a solution . . .

How about we run Dennis + Elizabeth ---

that way the height thing levels out --- ????

And, I like Elizabeth --

Don't hold out for another Liebermann --- vote Elizabeth --- !!!

hearts!!!

[undeterred]

27. She has to take her tongue ring out though

How can she assume the duties of first lady with a tongue ring? How can she pick out rugs?

[defendandprotect]

36. Actually, I want her to be president ---

Dennis can be the VP --- that way he'll have all the power ---

Bush has tongue problems and they still let him pick out countries to attack ---

[undeterred]

45. I think she could handle the job

but could Dennis pick out rugs?

[defendandprotect]

52. No need . . .. Dennis has his own hair . . .

[MonkeyFunk]

54. well she's not even a US citizen

much less a natural-born one, so that idea's out.

[undeterred]

58. well shoot, that rules out Ted Koppel too.

[bluedog]

95. does she plan on getting citizenship

in the U.S.?......will she hold Duel citizenship?...........I don't think the U.S, wants or will accept a 1st Lady of the United States...who is NOT a citizen........

[MADem]

80. Then you have to let AHHHHNULD in. She isn't a US citizen, nt

[NMMNG]

41. I'm not

:thumbsup:

[LWolf]

47. I'm not.

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

55. I'm not.

:)

[stillcool]

60. Not surprising...

how could they? They can't even say why we're in Iraq..just attribute the whole thing to 'George Bush's follies'.

[cali]

69. Hmm. Do you think Bernie Sanders is "scared":

of endorsing Kucinich? Because he hasn't, and I'd bet quite a lot that he won't. Maybe he has reasons why he hasn't. I'd love it if he did, but I don't think fear is the motivating factor.

[hayu_lol]

72. Dennis Kucinich is a cult...

not a political candidate.

The Brownshirts are riding. They love Dennis.

[Moochy]

93. and who do you support

SOMEONE WITH A FLAG LAPEL PIN ?

who's the brown shirt now, schlep rock?

[warren pease]

112. "Dennis Kucinich is a cult"

Dennis Kucinich is actually the only presidential candidate of the whole sorry lot who, upon election, would cause people to notice that something fundamental had changed in this country. Well, Ron Paul's presidency would be noticeable, too, but not in ways I like to contemplate.

Here's a partial list of Kucinich's key initiatives (cribbed from post # 35 above):

Reinstating Amendments 1, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 of the Bill of Rights
Impeachment of Cheney, then Bush and maybe more to follow
Restoring the US' international reputation
Single-payer, universal-access health care
Drastically improving public education
Repealing the 1996 Telecom Act
Getting serious about animal rights
Reinforcing the 1st amendment wall separating church and state
Getting out of Iraq
Curbing US imperialism before it causes any more damage
Federal investment in and tax advantages for research into non-fossil fuels energy sources
Real environmental protection and action to lessen the impact of global climate change
Starving the pentagon and the arms industry it supports
Banning private armies on US soil
Reinstating Habeas Corpus
Repealing the Patriot Acts
Repealing the Military Commissions Act (and reinstating Posse Comitatus)
Ending the drug war
Mandating verifiable paper ballots, counted by humans, with results posted on precinct doors (see HR 6200)
Creating a Department of Peace to resolve conflicts without war

If you can't find at least a few things to like there, then by all means support one of the heavily bribed corporate suck-ups trying to pass as democrats. But realize that the transition from BushCo to one of these status quo shills, while certainly a vast improvement over BushCo's dangerous nutcases and sociopaths, would do little to alter the disastrous course this country is now on.

Just replace your candidate of choice with Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid and you can imagine the kind of inoffensive, conservative, milquetoast, "don't rock the boat" administration you'd get from the "mainstream" candidates. They're not called "mainstream" because of their appeal to middle America; they're dubbed "mainstream" or "top-tier candidates" because they've passed the corporate orthodoxy test and, therefore, having demonstrated their allegiance to the status quo, are given the money to compete for the job of arms industry business agent and huckster for corporate ideology, which is, in brief: profits over all; humans take a fucking walk.

What's more, the unconstitutional outrages and sheer malevolence perpetrated by BushCo against the American people would likely continue. After all, what ambitious, megalomaniac politician would voluntarily give up the massive powers with which BushCo has endowed itself?

Dissent would still be illegal; the TSA would still feel you up at the airport; health care would still be a privilege reserved for those who can pay; the US would remain mired in Iraq and continue its lethal addiction to fossil fuels; environmental protection would remain subordinate to profits; Blackwater would keep opening new camps "just in case;" suspects would remain without the most basic human rights; the obscene Patriot Acts and the MCA would remain on the books, murdering democracy; drug users would continue to face harsh prison sentences while the DEA continues to seize assets of "suspected drug kingpins" who just happen to own ocean view property, fast boats, and/or expensive cars; elections would stay in the hands of private corporations with ties to the GOP.

And the pentagon would continue to suck up every dollar it could scam from taxpayers, assuring that essentials like universal health care, properly funded public education, upgrading the entire utility and transportation infrastructures, and alternative energy R&D subsidies remain unfunded. And we'll wave good bye to the rest of the civilized world and spiral down into some sort of economic, cultural and social netherworld where "the good life" means scraping together enough loose change for a Big Mac and large fries, then chasing the whole gelatinous mess with a quart of Thunderbird.

Then it's home for another evening of pop culture infotainment and citizen obedience training delivered by CNN, Fux, NBC, CBS, ABC and the trendy new Poverty Channel, where the downwardly mobile learn to adjust their expectations, live cheaply, stretch their food dollars, work well into their 80s, perform surgery on friends and relatives, repair old clothes and access the internet using only a B&W TV and a paper clip for an antenna. Sponsors include deluxe shopping cart suppliers for those trips to the uptown dumpsters, space blanket manufacturers for those cold nights in the park and suicide centers for those who just can't take it anymore (free ash scattering if you mention Bush's name).

Well, maybe I overstate the severity of the problem. But I do know that maintaining the status quo, or "staying the course," as the Bush family language manglers like to say, is guaranteed to keep us in debt, working soul-killing jobs that we're scared to leave because of losing medical benefits, preserving the useful fiction of the "war on terror" as the excuse for endless wars of aggression and resource grabs throughout the Middle East, watching the dollar sick beneath the peso, getting outsourced/offshored/rightsized/downsized into bankruptcy, and all the rest of the really fun stuff that has made the BushCo years so very special.

I've had my dose of BushCo, thank you. The status quo is depressingly gloomy and I'm ready for an actual change. I find Kucinich to be the only candidate whose concept of change aligns with mine. I will, therefore, continue to give him money when I can spare it. I'll also continue to donate my time and minor writing skills to aid his campaign. I will, in fact, do anything legal to help Kucinich obliterate business as usual and build a coalition government of progressive thinkers that's actually based on real, sustainable human and environmental values rather than those taught to us by corporate shills on mass media.

I think this is a watershed election (assuming it isn't canceled per the provisions of NSPD 51/HSPD-20). I doubt the country can survive another conservative, anti-humanist administration. The debt load to savings ratio alone is enough to destroy a consumption-based economy. Combine that with currency devaluation, inflation, unemployment, regressive taxation, foreclosures and use of retirement funds to pay today's bills and the only predictable result is mass bankruptcies, societal destabilization not seen since the 1930s and, possibly, armed insurrection.

Before the blood begins to flow, however, I'd prefer giving an honest man with a progressive agenda a shot at correcting the imbalances and outrageous wealth disparities in this country by taxing the living shit out of the rich and the corporate, and channeling those funds into programs that improve rather than ruin people's lives.

Dangerously radical, I know, but fairness and economic justice always are, at least when seen through the lens of the privileged.

Thus endeth this hideously long detour into fantasy land. Now I'll be a good little android and vote democratic no matter what, just because I'm so very fond of Pelosi and Hoyer and Reid and I want more people just like them in positions of national power.


wp

PS: I happened to catch Cynthia McKinney speaking in Portland last night. She's running as the Green Party presidential candidate. If Kucinich is purged from the race, Cynthia is getting my vote. I'd rather be dipped in molasses and tied to an ant hill than vote for a DLC-approved corporate suck-up, and I'd rather be broken on the wheel than ever vote GOP. If voting my beliefs and values is a wasted ballot, so be it. I'm tired of holding my nose on election day and will never do it again.

[bluestateguy]

74. When I see and hear Kucinich I am reminded of the electoral fates of these people:

Sorry, but I want a winner, not someone who will guarantee George W. Bush's heir apparent.

[eridani]

102. Those folks ran as competent technocrats, not as left populists n/t

[Elidor]

81. I'm not

I endorse him happily.

[EFerrari]

83. I so don't care anymore.

Dennis represents my values. And my values won't change if he is disrespected. My admiration for him only grows when he keeps doing right despite the party shunning him.

[Cronopio]

101. Right on.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Yukari Yakumo]

85. I am afraid.

I am afraid that, if he were the nom, the RePuke slime machine and the M$M, even if half-asleep, drunk, and stoned, would have no difficulty portraying Kuch as a complete moonbat to the general public.

I am afraid that, if he were the nom, we will get annihilated at the GE.

I am afraid that, if he were the nom, Congressional Dems will get slaughter en masse at the GE too.

2008 is not worth the risk of someone, who has never been a proven leader and has done nothing but pander to his HardLeft niche crowd, losing everything we could have stood to gain.

Kuch is no leader. Kuch is no savior. Kuch is a clown, nuff 'said.

[leaninglib]

86. They are not afraid; they just don’t want to look like buffoons.

[MadHound]

88. It isn't necessarily that they are scared of endorsing DK's ideas

It's just that they fear a loss of that corporate money if they go ahead and do so. Kucinich is the biggest threat going to the two party/same corporate master system of government that we're operating under, and corporate America has determined to keep him squelched and silent as much as possible, using any means possible. This means no endorsements, few invites, and stupid questions from Timmmah during the debates.

[Oldenuff]

89. Most of them have their snouts in the money trough

and can't afford to endorse anyone who might make it difficult to "bag a lot of bucks".And add to that the word integrity,there is precious little of that around the halls of Congress lately.






Only wussies use spell czech.

[southerncrone]

94. Fear.....the ultimate defeater of all that is good & noble.

I'm not scared, I'm furious at those who are! :grr:

[Odin2005]

97. A kucinich nomination equals a guaranteed Puke victory.

Sad that the ideological purists would rather have the Pukes back in power and thus screw the country over just because Clinton, Edwards, or Obama aren't pure enough. Reminds me of the German Communists that let Hitler come to power rather then form a coalition with the Social Democrats.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

108. What a shallow outlook.

Sad that the next generation is so willing to forgoe its expectations of justice in their pursuit of their objectives. BTW. What are your objectives?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

107. Nuh uh!

Go DK!

[Enrique]

115. is John Lewis scared?

he endorsed Hillary.

ditto Tammy Baldwin. Is she scared?