DU is not a place for real discussion.

[Labors of Hercules]

I am very hungry for legitimate discussion and am having trouble finding it here. Here on DU I find erudite tomes of information with ra-ra "kick" responses, one-sided rants, quips or one-liners,

but VERY LITTLE back and forth exchange of ideas, questions and thoughts and I just DON'T GET IT! Why do so few people here really want to communicate with each other?

Call it a flame war or whatever the fuck you want, but dammit, TALK TO ME!!!

What do you love/hate about Hillary and why? Do you really think Dennis can win the nomination? How? Do you have any news to share and why should I give a shit about it? Are you a Christian? Why?...

Do you give a shit what anyone else thinks? Can you learn something from me?

I want to learn something from you! Something that makes us go... :wow:

[lligrd]

1. Is That What You Want To Discuss? nt

[Evergreen Emerald]

2. ok. Who do you support for the primaries and why?

I am also offended by this board of late, but alas, I find that I am reduced to smart-ass comments in response.

I am torn because I like Biden--he makes a lot of sense, but I remember what he did during the Thomas hearings and how devestated I was at how he dismissed Anita Hill like a good-ol-boy shuttin down the women so they could get on with real business. I have not been able to stomach him since.

I like Clinton--although I do not like the NAFTA issue and sending our jobs overseas. I think she is tough and progressive, and will get the job of Iraq done

I am disapointed in Edwards and I stopped trusting him when I saw how he tried to re-invent himself nearly 180 degrees and then ridicules others for attempting the same transformation.

In every test I do, Kucinich and I agree on the issues, but he will not be president.

[hlthe2b]

5. Yeah... No perfect candidate and thus the need to weigh the

relative pros and cons... I'm decidedly agnostic until closer into the primaries. By intent...

[Labors of Hercules]

7. agnostic...

Are you waiting for anything in particular? What could one candidate do to convince you he/she's the one?

[hlthe2b]

9. Agnostic, in this case does not mean disinterested or imply

a lack of support. Just because I have not vested myself in a single candidate at this point does not mean I am not closely following.

As per some other posters here, I like aspects of each of our DEM candidates. I am most concerned at the corporatist tendencies expressed by some previous votes, campaign donors, and current stances, (e.g., NAFTA with Clinton, the bankrupcy bill with Biden). To this end, Edwards continues to come off (along with Kucinich) as more the populist.

I'm very concerned about our loss of civil rights. To this end, I feel that Dodd, Biden, Edwards, and Kucinich have been most forceful in speaking to these issues. Obama a bit less so-- seemingly being far more cautious in statments. Clinton, ditto. RIchardson, problably in the middle there somewhere.

As to the war, the only one that seems to be most direct in his intent to turn around this mess is Kucinich. Like others, however, I don't see Kucinich as having any chance, unfair as that may be. (He seems to bring out the bully in not only RWers, but the media. He'd spend his entire term fighting them, I fear). Biden seems forceful and competent on this issue. He and Dodd both have qualities that make me wish they could move up in the pack a bit.


I would love to elect the first woman or the first African American or the first Hispanic American. Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama, and Richardson all have strengths that would allow me to support them (and I will if they are nominated). But, I have qualms about each...

[hlthe2b]

28. Labors of H...

I realize I didn't fully answer your question, re: "what could one candidate do to convince you he/she's the one?" I guess since I'm not in an early primary state, I just haven't viewed that I need to determine one candidate as my choice right now. The only thing they could do, I suppose that would have me committing NOW would be to address the issues I have with each and perhaps clarify their positions to reissure me that their perceived positions are not hardened. For example, if Biden continued as he is on foreign policy and constitutional issues, but addressed a need to revamp the bankrupcy bill and to help out the struggling middle class, as both Edwards and Obama have recently in their statements.... Clinton needs to continue to hammer Bush and the Neocons and indicate she's learned some lessons from her votes on IWR and the Kyle-Lieberman amendment that will NOT be repeated. It would help if Bill came out strongly as well-- perhaps underscoring both his and her views on NAFTA-- indicating areas he regrets and how they would change that. In short, HRC needs to stress a more progressive populist view on issues, rather than pushing the DLC, centrist viewpoint in the hopes of picking off a few rare REPUGs that don't totally detest the Clinton name.

Similar for the other candidates.... There are things I like from each of them, but so far no one has defined them self and their positions in a way that most closely parallels my own views on the most important issues... So, at this point, I'm happy to wait and watch...closely.

[Labors of Hercules]

47. I will be waiting and watching as well...

especially with regard to Bill and Hillary, (and I agree with you point for point there), but I seriously doubt if Hillary will meet our criteria.
:popcorn:

[Labors of Hercules]

6. It's a shame Dennis can't win...

I match him as well on issues. I share a distrust of Hillary in respect to her having allowed the economy to strictly dominating her decisionmaking, (which I guess they all do eventually), so perhaps it's better that she's at least up front about it... :shrug:

I live in Chapel Hill, so have seen John Edwards here and there, and every time I have felt "he's a great lawyer", but not "here's a guy who will be a great president".

[stray cat]

15. I like Edward's populism and emphasis on the middle class

I fear corporotism and cronism have taken over our goverment. I hear alot of North Carolinans don't care for him. What is your take on him in Chapel Hill? I have to say I'd support Clinton, Obama or Edwards either one. I like Bill Clinton but I have to say I'm leary of another dynastic presidency.

[Labors of Hercules]

49. Edwards is a great lawyer.

I think there is a consensus among most of us here that he is behaving more like a politician than he should be. Some of us have seen him when he is not "in the courtroom" and he's a very genuine person, but exceedingly ambitious.

He wants it more than any of them (save maybe Hillary), and that does not help him.

[Toasterlad]

23. Why Do You Believe That Dennis Can't Win?

[Labors of Hercules]

41. Can he?

I like him, but do not sense that the majority of progressives perceive of him as legitimately presidential. I would be very happy to be wrong though.

[Toasterlad]

56. Of Course He Can.

How many times have you read messages on this board to the effect of "I love Dennis, but he's unelectable". These people don't necessarily view Dennis as "unpresidential". They say he's unelectable because the media is telling them that Hillary Clinton is leading the polls, and her only serious challenges are from Barack Obama and John Edwards. Yet Dennis leads all the polls here, and many polls outside the scope of the mainstream media.

If everyone who said they liked Dennis voted for Dennis, Dennis would win. It's that simple. You can either drink the Kool-Aid, or you can be an individual.

[Froward69]

14. Biden still voted No on Clarence Thomas

and wasn't that Anita Hills intent? just because he questioned her timing with when she came forward. should he have treated her with kid gloves just because she is a woman? I say no.

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. no. It was more than that

He dismissed her. At first was not going to consider her at all. Refused to allow others to speak who were ready. And then he allowed it to go to a full Senate vote--similar to what they did to Mukasey this week.

It was as if what they had to say had nothing to do with his qualifications. I believe that treating women as objects and nothing more, is significant and should make one ineligible to sit on the Supreme Court.

[Froward69]

20. Anita Hills testimony, was not about

Clarence Thomas' qualifications either... his conservative leanings were well known. Biden did his job, and still voted NO. I see his actions as speeding up the nomination process. without subjecting Anita to Harsher questions, and alleviating the decisiveness of others testimony. real or fabricated.

[Evergreen Emerald]

39. I disagree with you. I think the problem with our society today is the belief you just espoused

that Anita Hill was not about his qualifications. It absolutely was.

[Froward69]

62. so unwanted sexual

Advances are qualifications? or disqualifications? what if Anita Hill found him attractive and the advances were welcomed? it never would have been an issue. She never proved the incident hindered her career? in fact she was promoted and given a raise.

[Evergreen Emerald]

66. it was not about unwanted sexual advances

It was about treating a female employee as an object rather than a person. It is about creating a work environment that was hostile to her. The people who interpret our laws should be better than that.

[Froward69]

68. Agreed but,

If we remove gender from the equation all of us become objects. Women much more than men see being an object as offensive. As a man, I would prefer to seen as a sexual object. clearly I then am being underestimated. I see it as an advantage. If I were to attach emotions to it then I would be offended. Simply a fundamental Difference between sexes.

[chimpymustgo]

53. Biden completely mishandled the hearings. He was allowed the Rethugs to

lie and make up shit, and run roughshod over Hill and HIM. He did not allow corroborating testimony of others who claimed Thomas has sexually harassed them. Biden was just an awful MESS.

With the SLIGHTEST bit of competence on Biden's part and Clarence Thomas would not be on the Supreme Court.

[Froward69]

64. Biden still voted No on Clarence Thomas

the rest was out of control. I agree. if the others were allowed to testify don't you think they would have been as mistreated as Anita bu the repugs?? you bet your ass. insofar as the closed session in recess. i do not know what went on in there but my money is on "the rest told Biden to stop the pony show because their minds were made up and any more would be pointless?" Is that the ONLY reason? some 19 years old grudge. preventing you from supporting the best candidate of them all? Congress was republican controlled. Biden had aneurysms that year. it was a mess all around and a mistake, Biden i believe has learned from his mistakes. not to make them again. Biden unlike the current adm can admit that. nobody is perfect and seeking perfection in any politician is naive.

[polichick]

3. It's more a place to tout your candidate I guess...

Seems most posters are dead-set on one of the candidates, and don't want to discuss the pros and cons of all the candidates.

[Labors of Hercules]

8. Or of progressive ideas...

I dunno... Maybe it's just difficult knowing how many 1000's of threads there are here on DU and how few of them become an truly enlightening conversation about an important or thought provoking issue.

[polichick]

11. I know what ya mean...

I've only been here a few months, but I read one post that suggested DU had always been pretty centrist ~ maybe true progressives go somewhere else. Please let me know if you find such a place!

[hlthe2b]

4. Painting quite a wide swath there, I think...

I see many discussional postings on DU... Perhaps you are hanging out in GD-Politics during the pissing matches that seem to flare up regularly now... Emotions riding high in some of those threads, I agree.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. One person's "provocative" is another person's "flamebait"

It all depends on your agreement with it.

The downside of this is that if you post anything which contradicts accepted dogma, you're a disruptor.

[cali]

12. I largely agree with you.

I do try and engage in interesting and informative discussions. Yesterday, for example I posted a piece I wrote about next year's competative Senate races, and described the cast of characters running and why the races were important. It was a good thread with many good and informative posts.

I agree with you about Dennis, Hillary and Edwards. In fact, I'm enthusiastic about Dennis' platform but knowing that he's not going to win puts a damper on that, and I'm not sure he'd be an effective president if he did wi. I have a lot of trepidation about Clinton, and it boils down to not trusting her on many issues. In fact, I'm not very enthusiastic about the presidential race at all. I am enthusiastic about the House and Senate races.

[Labors of Hercules]

31. That was a wonderful thread!

I didn't have a great deal to add to the conversation, but found it fascinating to read the responses. That was actually the one thread that got me thinking I wish I could see more like it!

[Quantess]

13. How long can a discussion go, if everyone agrees? Not long.

The more sensible an OP is, the faster it drops. That's where kicking, "K & R", etc come in.

[Labors of Hercules]

32. It's all in the details...

There's always something to add, to clarify or to bring out. Maybe we just need a few more Devil's advocates? :evilgrin:

[The Straight Story]

16. Let's discuss sex, I can learn you something on that ....

:rofl:

[Labors of Hercules]

33. What, are you asking permission?

Go ahead! You got something to say? Spill it!

[earth mom]

18. C'mon. Where else do you get to fight DINOS AND FREEPERS in the same place?

:evilgrin:

[stray cat]

19. Confirming the point of the original poster

DU is a place to yell and fight and be self-righteous but more rarely is it a place to discuss issues or broaden our insights by diverse view points. DINOs and Rinos may represent 70% of the American population.

[earth mom]

21. This country is WAY further left than anyone wants you to believe-like 70 or 80%.

And I'm serious.

[Labors of Hercules]

34. MORE!!!

Got data? Info? a story? smoke signals? WHAT???

[earth mom]

22. Here's a serious and most excellent discussion for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2257705

[Greyhound]

24. It is difficult as the BBS culture encourages most of us to pick up on one tiny,

usually tangential, part of a post and make that the major topic. I recently posted a rant that was supposed to illicit some thought and repartee and happened to mention that I am a post boomer, well guess what, a third of the thread became about how the boomers are good/bad/not responsible, etc.

Typical.:shrug:

(To any of you that actually provided answers to the question and are reading this, thank you.)

[cgrindley]

25. PROTIP: you're on an internet discussion forum

if you want to have an intelligent and informed political discussion, I suggest you construct a time machine and teleport yourself to the left bank of the Seine and hang out with Sarte.

PS you left out...

a) science bashing
b) paranoid and offensive MIHOP assholes
c) and claims that all dissenting opinion is due to paid operatives

I'm willing to talk to you, buddy, and I'm always willing to be proven incorrect and argued into the floor, but too many arguments on this site are motivated through mindless emotion or hysterical belief and not through cold fact.

[Labors of Hercules]

43. you mention precisely what I am taking issue with...

We are in complete agreement that there must be a willingness on the part of individuals to communicate effectively. To put aside the quick and easy path and engage in thoughtful discussions!

Somehow I doubt that proving you incorrect would benefit either of us. :toast:

[KharmaTrain]

26. 'Tis The Silly Season

I do find people here who do enjoy discussing issues...but it does take some digging. But that's part of the stern and drang of this place. With the primaries coming up, it's like the baseball pre-season...everyone's candidate has a perfect record and can win. Since this place is a magnet for left of center Democrats, it become a battleground of ideology vs. actual political strategy. It's where a combination of true believers, concern trolls and other operatives like to stir up the shit...thus the silly season.

I know of many here that are non-aligned...and view a lot of this electioneering as just that. It'll be this way until the primaries are decided. Then comes the second guessing and how "unfair" either the world, the DLC, other Democrats, the Trix rabbit or any combination there above is. Many of us saw this in '03-'04.

I do have to agree about those who want to sound a one-note mantra...demonstrating some of the most ugly aspect of the other side. If you don't agree, the "you just don't get it". If you don't support their candidate or case, you've sold out and that if you question, then you surely must be bad or a troll or X'd out or whatever. Tolerance during the season season can be in short supply here.

Hang in there...this place still offers some of the best links and quick access to what's going on and can offer some good laughs and good people as well.

[bighart]

27. I am a Christian.

I came to faith in God as an adult which is far outside the norm. You ask why in your OP and my answer to that is I began to read about the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and came to the conclusion that this man was either absolutely crazy or he was who he said he was. If you look at the teachings of Jesus and not the distorted view of many of the church organizations today, you see a very radical and progressive belief system. I don't believe government exists to provide anything more than a means to enable the citizens to create a better society. It is up to the common man to make life for himself and those around him better. We are all inter-connected whether we like it or not and should consider OTHERS more important than self.

[hlthe2b]

29. I don't mean to offend you tbh

I respect your religious conversion and what sounds like a very progressive viewpoint of Christianity, the tenets of which most Duers could embrace...


But, what does this have to do with your candidate for President?

[Labors of Hercules]

37. Who did Jesus say he was?

Do you believe in his divinity or the other tenets of Christianity, including the nature of God and original sin?

I only ask because there is a great deal of controversy as to the reality of who Jesus was and what he truly expressed about himself, but I think you boiled it down to the essential truth: That Christ taught individuals to consider others more important than self. He taught the nature of Divine inspiration: that humanity progresses through peace, selflessness and understanding.

I was raised Moravian, and although I don't embrace most of the liturgy, there is one phrase that sums it up pretty well: "In essentials, Unity. In nonessentials, Liberty. In all things, Love."

A friend who was once a Moravian minister said "as long as we keep the essentials down to a minimum, we'll be just fine." That pretty much sums it up for me...

[bighart]

70. The way I read it

at least according to the canonized scriptures Jesus did in fact claim to be the incarnate son of God. He made statements that he was the Messiah, or Christ, which was the basis for the religious authorities plotting to kill him. He said he was going back to his father, and that no other person could come to his father unless they come by way of his own sacrificial death.

I grew up completely outside of any organized religion and had no preconceived notions about religion when I first became curious as to what the real story was. The more I read the gospels and researched the history the more convinced I became that Jesus was either a complete lunatic or he was just who he said.

[L. Coyote]

30. There is a lot of release of energy around this place, the topics engender reaction.

I get it and have made the same observations. Yet, the mindless quip is often n times more creative than the K & R routine, if not a real duzzy. Yes, I tire of the post that Rs would pay $30 an hour for. Democracy at work has multitudinous players, and so be it. While some just want to rant, they also vote which topics float. The political blogosphere is unlike the controlled media world of past politics, which I view as a real positive. Also, media reflects the maturity of participants, and graduate poli-sci seminar is not the average DU workspace.

Big plus--the people have a place to rant. The topics here make explicit why that is needed!

[Disturbed]

35. I write short replies.

I have found that long replies usually don't garner much notice. I don't like to
waste my time & energy.

[Labors of Hercules]

36. Yep...

like poetry: Much discussion, few words. I hate wading through paragraphs of BS, and love posts of a few well-crafted sentences that spark an interesting conversation... but the resulting conversation is CRITICAL!!!

There seem to be many people who are afraid of dialogue. Or maybe just don't have time for it?

[omega minimo]

38. Lotsa times people react more than read...........

Here's a common concern:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2260108

[Kajsa]

42. Thanks, I needed to hear that.

My opinion of a very well known member just dropped 95%
because of the asinine assumptions, insinuations and
skirting the main point as much as possible.

A logical, flame-free discussion would be nice.

Shit- Now I see why some say they want to leave.

But I'm not leaving.

[omega minimo]

45. the usual advice is

to check out the groups and smaller forums.

the truth is, some people just like to fuck with each other. Slapfights as "entertainment" vs. my favorite: "actually getting somewhere."

good luck :toast:

[Kajsa]

51. Thanks so much, Omega!

What is really sad is this a a very well known and
somewhat revered member, here.

That person is not nearly as intelligent, well versed
or knowledgeable of the art of communication as I had
thought.

This person is downright dumb and bigoted!

That's what is so sad.

:hi:

[Joe Chi Minh]

40. If you haven't learnt by now, you're beyond help.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. it happens but the closer you get to the primaries

the less you will see it

Social shaming is being used extensivelu. The problem is that those using it don't have a clue of why they
are doing it... and will attack anybody who is not pure... whatever the term means for them

[LWolf]

59. Please tell us more about social shaming.

:hi:

[KoKo]

61. "Social Shaming" ....you got it.!..and those who haven't had experience with it

and are not strong enough to cope will be shunned away to lurk or move on to other places or even give up the political process.

The OP hits on things that come under "Social Shaming" or "Shunning."

But...I have no help to offer because it's true. There isn't really "discussion" anymore.

[mod mom]

46. I find DU an excellent educational tool. I've learned sooo much since coming

here right after the '04 election theft (came to draw attention to that theft that I personally witnessed).

DU writers like UL, H2O Man, Octafish, Seemslikeadream, leveymg and many others have enlighted me to the depth of what is occurring. I applaud this discussion.

:applause:

[bigwillq]

48. DU is what you make of it.

I have some wonderful, intelligent conversations here and I also read a lot of informative articles as well as having some fun in the Lounge.

[sendero]

50. It didn't used to be that way..

.. but the stresses of having a lame Congress and a malignant administration has left many of us unable to be reasonable any more.

When giving in over and over and over and over and over is passed off as "being reasonable", many of us no longer wish to be reasonable.

When we have a historic opportunity to get some real change in Washington and it becomes clearer and clearer that the country/party is going to nominate the candidate who will do the least to change things, well reasonable does not come to mind.

[truedelphi]

52. I'm into one liners at this point because in the recent past

My longer more intelligent remarks were locked by the moderators.


Must support all Democratic candidates at all times, was their reasoning, if I remember.

I guess it is Democratic Centrist Underground...

[Catchawave]

54. Your questions in the OP would make great thread starters!

Many of those would get great replies.

:hi:

[Gregorian]

55. It should be a place where we build upon our thoughts and discussions.

And it is, sometimes. Life is like that. A lot of noise, and occasional production.

For example, I would like to see a compilation of the things people like and don't like about all of our candidates. A resource.

I think part of why we seem scattered is that we are up against a serious condition. It's like we're in the midst of a bank robbery. It's hard to be controlled and rational under certain conditions.

Considering this is the internet, and considering we don't screen members as such, I am impressed with the level of civility here.

I keep thinking of hip hop as a metaphor. But it has too many misconceptions for it to work. But I see hip hop as a kind of entity that has grown from a synergy. One group creates something, and another takes it and runs with it, melting it into something new. And the key to why I feel this is important is that it indicates that they are all on one side. And we're no different. We have fascism and conservative agendas that are honed to a keen edge, and aim to destroy our democracy. And we are fighting that.

Part of why we're so scattered and sometimes so nonproductive is that our fight is so serious. We are so concerned that if Obama is nominated, then perhaps he'll do this or do that. Or if Kucinich is nominated, he'll end up out on a limb because of something. The Roves are in the wings, waiting to tear us apart. And we're trying to play our cards in a very serious poker game. One more false move, and it's all over.

I think your post is a good one, even if it weren't the case. We need to start focusing on our similarities now. Our differences don't lie within our group, but out there with our enemies. I guess this is the home stretch. Let's give it all we've got. We're Democrats.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

57. Wow-A WINNER! " It should be a place where we build upon our thoughts and discussions." K&R

After reading all of these replies this one covers everything I would want .. all in one post-
:applause: ThankYou...:hug: All your points are soo...very important right now.. :hug: I'm Kicking and saving this...forever... :grouphug:


:yourock: :kick:

[Gregorian]

60. Yay!

I love it when I make sense to someone. :)

[LWolf]

58. Okay. Since this is GD,

and not "GD Politics," I'll open with an issues discussion.

Who am I? I'm 47, twice married and divorced, a mother, a grandmother, a teacher, an introvert, and an incredibly independent person who views group identity like a cat, rather than a pack-loving dog.

I'm also a proud and defiant idealist, and if someone wants to preach the dumbing-down of principles and ideals to me, they're talking to an impregnable wall.

Here's an issue to discuss that no one seems to give a shit about in the midst of election frenzy: NCLB.

As an educator, I knew that the standards and accountability movement, and the accompanying high-stakes testing, was pure bullshit before it ever went federal. Several states had (and have) their own version, and I taught under one of those state versions in CA in the 90s.

Don't mistake me. I have high standards. I've been told repeatedly by parents, colleagues, students, and admins that my standards are higher than they've ever encountered. I just don't think threat is a teaching tool. I know that if I keep those standards in mind, and keep working toward them, my students will progress farther than if I set them lower. At the same time, every step forward we make is a success, and we haven't failed if we didn't reach the pinnacle. We just got stronger and gained skills in the process.

I am adamantly opposed to ranking, to threatening, to punishing, and to bribing based on test scores. I'm opposed to those things based on ANYTHING.

I am sick of having politicians make political hay out of my profession while the profession, and the students it serves, continues to suffer.

I am sick of being used as a scapegoat for every social ill that government doesn't want to address, and for the anti-intellectual stance of too many Americans.

NCLB is a bipartisan disaster. When I hear politicians, both Ds and Rs, pontificate on "fixing," on "modifying," etc., I want to put my nominally pacifistic boot in their teeth.

I do not want NCLB "fixed" and renewed. I want it to sunset, replaced by something that actually supports public education, with no tests attached. I'll fight the testing battle with the state.

There you have it; I've talked to you. Where do you stand on NCLB?

For the record, I adamantly oppose HRC and Obama. They are "off my ballot" and no amount of discussion will put them back on. I am a diehard Dennis Kucinich campaigner, and while I'm not thrilled with the rest, I can find something good to say about them. Biden and Richardson get NCLB right, to start with. Kucinich, of course, gets it ALL right. :D

[Bonobo]

63. It's Monty Python's "Argument Sketch" in here.

"I came in here for a good argument"

"No, you came in here for an argument."

"But an argument isn't simply saying 'no, it isn't.'"

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't."

And so on, and so on.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

65. Thank You! You really opened up some 'real discussion' K&R

:loveya: I learned so much... I love DU! :grouphug:
The smartest and most well informed people... are right here--blogging on the DU... :yourock:

[steve2470]

67. You have to solicit real discussion

Have a thick skin and lots of patience, and you will indeed get discussion here. DU rocks.

[Lilith Velkor]

69. Yay, questions!

Answers, in order:

I hate the fact that HRC is associated with an administration that fucked over the poor, but love the fact that she makes Republicans shit their pants.

I don't think DK can win, unless space aliens intervene.

Pakistan is fucked, and you should give a shit because they can and probably will fuck us whist we're busy fucking Iran.

I am not a Christian because I think it's evil to wish eternal suffering on people just for sleeping in on Sundays.

I don't much give a shit what anyone thinks, but learning from others is always a possibility.