My email exchange with "Gathering of Eagles" leader Kathy Upton.

[go west young man]

I just wanted to post this so DU'ers can see what we're up against trying to stop the war movement. This is my 1000th DU post so I figure it's a notable worthy one. Just a few things to clarify first. Kathy Upton assumes I'm a Christian. I'm not. I'm an agnostic/pagan type. She assumes the ANSWER coalition represents all things left. Also because it's an email exchange you have to start at the bottom and work upward. I have yet to reply back to her last post. Here's the exchange.

Chris,
I apologize for not answering your question before...I am not a veteran. I am an army brat, does that now disqualify any of my opinions?
A stable Middle East will procure those oil resources for generations to come. Of course we need to focus on renewable energy sources. Wind power, solar power, hydro-electric..the problem we have here in Vermont is environmentalists (the extremists) not wanting wind towers (there was a bird once that flew into one and got killed and they destroy the beauty of the ridgeline) It seems they like to scream about OIL, but any alternatives are fought tooth and nail.
BUT, this discussion is not about environmentalists. No, you won't change my opinion. I have had to many discussions and to many emails from those serving or having just come back from Afghanistan and Iraq, I have seen to many veterans determined to not let what happened to them happen to the current generation of military.
If we pull out of Iraq now, millions will die. Aren't their lives worth something as well? Or are you saying that only American lives are important? That wouldn't be very Christian of you. Would your Lord Jesus Christ say the same thing do you think?
I am pagan. My belief system involves the entire natural world. I want peace as much as anyone else, we are not "war-mongers", but we also realize that there are times when war is the only answer. The people we fight don't believe in peace unless we are willing to subject ourselves to the laws of Islam. I am NOT.
So yes, I will continue on with Gathering of Eagles and other like minded organizations, fighting the anti-war movement as much as I can. Remember this please: When you march under ANSWER, regardless of what your message may be, it is lost. I've provided their steering committee below for your review. I had a nice conversation with a couple of mid 20 age kids in Kennebunkport in August after the rally. They were hitchhiking back to their bus and I gave them a ride. Like you, they were articulate and passionate about their position. I told them the same thing I just said to you: Watch who you position yourself with. The world sees a big anti war rally sponsored by ANSWER and/or Code Pink and if you are in that crowd, you voice is lost to their tyrantical views. Those kids and I parted friendly, hoping to see each other again in DC on the 15th.

I respect, though disagree with your stance. I think that it is good we can have discussions without reverting to name calling and all the other nonsense that high emotions reveal. Trust me, yours was the most comprehensive and polite email from a "moonbat" that registered on GoE and received my email that I got. LOL...

Good Luck to you, and may you find the peace you are searching for.

Kathy
Look over this steering committee and think about what American interests they may hold:
IFCO/Pastors for Peace
Free Palestine Alliance - U.S.
Haiti Support Network
Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF
Nicaragua Network
Alliance for Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines
Korea Truth Commission
Muslim Student Association - National
Kensington Welfare Rights Union
Mexico Solidarity Network
Party for Socialism and Liberation



On 11/17/07, christopher harrison < [e-mail]> wrote:
Kathy, we lost in Vietnam because we should have never been there in the first place. It was a bad policy. Same as this one now. Iraq is more than just about oil. I mentioned a few other things as well as oil. But oil is the primary reason. The Iraqi oil is not yet available hence the high price now as the market is unstable. If the US stays ten years and many more people die then that oil will be available to the US. The funny thing is if our government was more progressive we could have had renewable energy years ago. As a former Marine I don't believe in people saying support the troops and support the mission. They are seperate things. The mission can be a bad one. The troops have no choice. many of my friends who have served feel that we are an invading force and that we are fighting Iraqi insurgents not terrorists. They are fighting for their country same as we would do if we were invaded. Bush uses the troops for his bad policy. I don't think I'm gonna change your mind but I hope you realize many troops don't feel the way you do. Once again I ask you what branch you have served and hope you switch over to an antiwar belief like my own. It's healthier. Since I became a pacifist I feel a lot better about life and I feel that Jesus Christ is more closely aligned to my thinking than that of people who advocate for war. Peace is the answer. Love and peace as John Lennon said long before he was killed. Good luck in your life, Chris


Kathy Upton <[e-mail] > wrote:
Well Chris,

I believe we should be conducting stem cell research. You see, just because I support our troops AND their mission, does not
necessarily translate into and unthinking approval of the things that President Bush does.
Do I think that we should pull our troops out of Iraq? No, I don't. I believe that if we do there will be much the same thing happen there as happened when we pulled out of Vietnam. Ask the millions of Vietnames families how they feel about that. I also believe that if we DON'T deal with this threat now, we will just be back over there in the near future.

Politicians on BOTH sides of the isle play us like we are fools. They hope (and in the majority of instances are correct) that American's won't indulge themselves to find out the truth. Think about this...IF it is about the oil, why is gas now $3.12 per gallon? Why did I just have to put a wood stove in my home so that I could heat it? I live in Vermont, do you think that $800+ is doable a month for heating oil? IF it was about oil, why didn't we just go in and take it? Claim Iraq as an American territory? We certainly have the military power to do so?

No...we haven't caught Bin Laden yet? Why is that? Our military force is one of the most highly trained and best equipped armies in the world. If they were given the green light, without all the political pandering, and congress trying to run the military for which they have NO qualification (with rare instances), they would have accomplished this mission long ago.

Listen, I don't get into politics, because personally, I don't trust a damn one of them. What I do know, is that we have well over 200,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who won't be home this holiday season as you and I are. What I do know is that they deserve to turn on a news report and instead of seeing a sea of yellow posters and posters decrying everything they are fighting for, they deserve to see a country that loves and supports them and wants them to come home victorious. These are trained, VOLUNTEER soldiers. They want peace more than anyone, after all, it's they who put their lives on the line! But they also want to be victorious. They know the threats this country face, and they are willing to defend this country for the future of their children and grandchildren.

Support....them and their mission. We welcome you to come to our side as well... :)


On 11/16/07, christopher harrison < [e-mail]> wrote:
I don't hate you and I'm on the left I believe. That's what our country is about freedom of choice. You stand a much better chance of dying from a disease that stem cell research can cure than you do of being hurt by a "jihadist". Note that we are over there and have been for a long time. They only recently came over here and attacked us. Your odds of being killed by one of "them" is miniscule. Your odds of yourself or one of your family members dying from cancer or some other illness is almost gauranteed. which way does a smart person vote in that situation? Think about it. Think deeply. The Bush administration uses terrorism just like jihadists do. To further their political agenda. That agenda relies upon people like yourself to go along. I'm not fooled. I served in the Marines and did my time and have the right to say that. I am curious what branch you served and how you feel about stem cell research? I believe the Bush admin uses fear as a political tool. And to quote another famous American phrase. "These colors never run." I see Bush and Faux news using fear for their own selfish gains. That is pathetic. they have exploited Sept.11 and disgraced the families. They have not caught Osama Bin Laden but they have managed to get a foothold in two oil rich countries. I would recommend you read up on "The Big Game" for oil. As Bertrand Russell called. Geopolitically the US is using "terra" as a ruse in order to achieve nefarious goals. Procurement of oil, containment of Russia, China and other states, protection of Israel. All these things have hurt the US. When we could have switched to renewable resources, focused on our own national interests and established a helpful relationship with Russia instead of reigniting a new cold war. Who is being served? Well the numbers don't lie. Cheney is making a fortune as are the weapons companies. Look deeper Kathy and you will see more clearly. I welcome you to our fold as in the long run we will be the true savoirs of the US. Cheers and come on over, Chris

Kathy Upton <[e-mail]> wrote:
I am well aware of what Semper Fi means, but thank you for the lesson. The only anger you will ever find in me is when I am on the streets facing the anti-war protesters as they burn a flag, drag it on the ground, shout to veterans who are standing shoulder to shoulder that they are murderer's and they deserve to die. Don't think that happens? Come on out to one of ANSWER or Code Pinks rally, see what they really think of you guys in the service.The only hate I harbor is for extremist's on any side of any issue. People who don't know enough and follow along blindly like sheep.
But it's ok, even though you despise us, we stll will fight.

I would recommend you visit www.jihadwatch.com and learn who the real enemy is. You can whine all you want about gas prices and taxes....the US military has fought and died for your right to do so.




On 11/15/07, christopher harrison < [e-mail]> wrote:
Oh I'm contributing cash everyday for this illegal war. Through taxes and gasoline. I have to or break the law. I bet Bush and Cheney are pretty happy with all the money they've made. Cheney and Halliburton have been raking it in. So has Rumsfeld and The Carlyle Group. I would recommend you read up on what Eisenhower said about the military industrial complex. These folks are robbing you and me blind. Come on over to the truth and all is forgiven. We want to see you full of light and love, not hate and anger. In the words of Chesty Puller Semper Fi. Always faithful. Chris

Kathy Upton <[e-mail] > wrote:
Hi Chris,
Look across the street at any rally and you will see me on the good side. I'm sorry to hear you feel the way you do, but we will always disagree on this. Gonna contribute some cash anyway?

Kathy


On 11/13/07, christopher harrison < [e-mail]> wrote:
Gathering of hawks is more like it. Take it from this U.S. Marine living in NC. 1st battalion, 6th marines, 2nd mar div, MOS 0341, mortarman. You guys are supporting an illegal and immoral war. Grow up. It was never about WMD. It was always about oil. You are foolishly being used by Bush to fatten his bank account. The sooner we pull out and indict these criminals in office the better off we all will be. Hope to see you on the good side of things in the future. Chris

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. If Kathy wants to blame us for who we associate with, fine, we can play that game too

Ask her about the two eagles who beat the shit out of a Gold Star Dad at the march in DC on the 15th of September.

Ask her why a group of eagles traveled across the country on their way to DC in September and stopped at various cities where they held press conferences to announce they supported the war against Iraq because Sadaam was responsible for 9/11.

If she is really concerned about associations, tell her she is associating with violent thugs and liars. See how she explains that.

[Union Thug]

2. and add that she should pull her head out of her pretentious ass,

stop the fear mongering, chicken-shit propaganda campaign, and, oh yeah, to fuck off.

And stop being polite to pricks like this! They don't deserve it. They are willfully ignorant, arrogant, tools.

[go west young man]

4. I do get angry with them too.

But I try to debate them on what I consider points of fact. Obviously in some regards your right it seems to go nowhere. On the other hand maybe ,just maybe I planted a seed in her army brat head. Maybe she realizes now that not all the troops are supporting the war. If I can rain on her parade just a little it may help to one day tip her cup in the right direction. I believe peace and communication is the higher ground. I challenge myself to seek the high ground when I get angry.

[go west young man]

3. I will ask her. I'm aware of the incident your talking about.

The father who had his son's picture swiped off the casket he was dragging. That incident is the reason I signed onto their site. So that I could give em an earful. I'm so tired of these prowar people thinking they have the support of the troops. They don't. The troops are being used by them and it's disgusting. I personally know many people who are in the military and are against the war and do not trust the Bush administration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. That father is a personal friend of mine

There is no sweeter gentler man than Carlos Arredondo. Please let me know how this woman responds to this question. I want to know how she justifies those thugs stealing his dead son's picture and then beating the shit out of Carlos when he tried to get it back. And I want to forward her response to Carlos.

[go west young man]

7. Apparently she reads Democratic Underground as she has

already responded to me twice before I asked your question. I assumed she was a leader there as she is the one who sends out their emails. Here's her two responses.

OH...one more small point to make clear to your people. I am not a leader at Gathering of Eagles. I am a volunteer just like that majority. Please make sure to keep the facts that you value so highly straight.



On 11/17/07, Kathy Upton <[e-mail]> wrote:
Hey Chris,
Thank you for your submission of our correspondence on DemocraticUnderground. Very cool! I especially like the comments your folks left. So much for a reasonable discussion. I was there during the encounter on the 15th with Carlos. In fact I was bumped when he tackled the guy that took his picture. So I know first hand what happened that day. The only reason that I assumed you were Christian is because of your use of the name Jesus Christ. I apologize for the assumption.

Feel free to post this response as well. I think my new "fan base" will enjoy the exchange.

[go west young man]

10. My question and her response.

Well Chris, I could sit here and type out long explanations for the incident with Carlos, and answer to the questions posed on UD, but what good would it do? You all seem to have your minds made up, about the war, about the incident on the 15th and about me.
If you, or any of yours, wish to further your education instead of spouting off left wing talking points, visit www.jihadwatch.com.
Watch some videos there, read some of the articles. UNDERSTAND that this IS one of those times we either fight or lose our country.
See you on the streets! Please be sure to introduce yourself.

Have a nice day.


On 11/18/07, christopher harrison < [e-mail]> wrote:
Kathy I saw the video on the net. A Gathering Of Hawks member grabbed Carlo's son's photo off the casket he was dragging while the Hawks members were mocking him. This occured before he tackled a Hawks member. Do you feel that the Hawks member had the right to take his personal propety? Especially a photo of his deceased son who had served in the armed forces? His emotion was obviously caused by that act. After all he did lose his son. From my perspective watching the video he was obviously outnumbered and the Hawks had a mob mentality (strength in numbers) some of them got too aggressive and one took his personal property. Is that not a fact? Juan Carlos was just walking dragging the casket before he was vitimized. Maybe I have this wrong? The members at DU would love to hear your side of the story. I hope our discussion is civilzed and think so far it has been. Once again I welcome you to the good side and hope that one day you realize war and killing is not the answer to the worlds problems. Cheers, Chris

[Mojorabbit]

5. I am at most of the code pink rallies

The oct 27 one had plenty of moms with kids overseas and moms who had lost their children in Iraq who were protesting. No one was dragging any flags. The eagles called out insults and the moranic phrase "get a job". She is living in a fantasy world.

[vanlassie]

8. Validate Your Beliefs with DATA

I would like her to defend just one of her many generalized, global statements. How about this one?

"...I want peace as much as anyone else, we are not "war-mongers", but we also realize that there are times when war is the only answer."

Exactly WHEN is it that war is the ONLY answer? Please be specific, given how very important the belief is.

And then, please offer your proof for the following:

"The people we fight don't believe in peace unless we are willing to subject ourselves to the laws of Islam."

Which PEOPLE we fight? Are those the PEOPLE of Iraq? The half million we have killed? Are those the ones? Or are you speaking about some OTHER people? Please be specific.

It is always a good idea to be clear when you have strong beliefs, and further, to validate those beliefs to be sure they are actually TRUE. There is only ONE way to tell if something you believe is true. That is with DATA.

vanlassie

[VP505]

9. Carefully read the

the second Email from her, in it she does a good job of describing how clueless she really is. Its apparent that clueless Kathy has swallowed the kool aid by the bucketful.

"Think about this...IF it is about the oil, why is gas now $3.12 per gallon? Why did I just have to put a wood stove in my home so that I could heat it? I live in Vermont, do you think that $800+ is doable a month for heating oil? IF it was about oil, why didn't we just go in and take it? Claim Iraq as an American territory? We certainly have the military power to do so?"

Fact is Iraq is all about oil, or more accurately about control of the oil, no doubt the Oil Companies want to make as much profit as possible. The Bush Admin is committed to providing every opportunity to capitalists like oil companies to maximize their profits and what better way to do that then to have control of Iraq's oil and BTW, they couldn't care less how much anyone has to pay for gasoline or heating oil? Claim Iraq as a US territory, not even Bu$h is stupid enough to think that rest of the world would allow the USA to do something like that, how much straw did it take to make that man?

""No...we haven't caught Bin Laden yet? Why is that? Our military force is one of the most highly trained and best equipped armies in the world. "If they were given the green light, without all the political pandering, and congress trying to run the military for which they have NO qualification (with rare instances), they would have accomplished this mission long ago.

Its the Bu$h Admin and their apologists in congress that never wanted to capture or kill Bin Laden, they want to use him as their bogyman to trot out every time they feel the need to generate more fear so the sheeple will go along with their immoral occupation in Iraq. Keep them scared enough and they will allow you to do anything in their name. "the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country" ~Hermann Goering!~

"What I do know is that they deserve to turn on a news report and instead of seeing a sea of yellow posters and posters decrying everything they are fighting for, they deserve to see a country that loves and supports them and wants them to come home victorious."

WRONG, what they, along with the American people deserve when they turn on the news is to see and hear the TRUTH During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information. ~Joseph Paul Goebbels~

[Richard Steele]

11. Kathy Upton is both delusional and dishonest- it's a SAD combination. nm

[Selatius]

12. As a Vietnamese, I have to take issue with what Kathy said about Viêtnam

The ending of the war with the communist victory was not something many people, including myself wanted. Would there have been a chance for representative democracy, we would have taken it, but the South Vietnamese government was anything but democratic, and the US should be condemned for supporting the dictatorship. Speaking about the war, it's pretty clear that if the US continued to occupy Viêtnam, the war would not conclude, and people would still be dying today.

When the US left, the conclusion of the war was allowed to come with the communist victory. In two short years the fighting ended. It makes one wonder how many fewer people would have died if the US had not bothered to enter the civil war in the first place. Several hundred thousand civilians fled when the communists took over. Thousands more were imprisoned, but ultimately, it came down to this: Sure, it's not really considered "living" under the boot of communist oppression, but it sure beat the hell out of dying under the bombs of an American B-52 bomber.

An estimated 2,000,000 civilians died during that conflict.

[go west young man]

13. A link to their Forum and their views on this discussion.

http://gatheringofeagles.org/forum/?forum=3&topic=2121&page=1

[Chovexani]

14. I fucking despise right-wing Pagans more than probably anyone

They absolutely drive me insane. It's like, way to miss the entire godsdamned point.

There's a freeper type who constantly posts asinine shit over on Wren's Nest articles on Witchvox. Name any kind of crazy ass irrational Glenn Beck/Rushbo position on an issue and this dude has drunk the Koolaid and repeats them ad nauseum. It takes every ounce of self-control I have not to slap the shit out of him and go "GTFO MY RELIGION KTHX"

It's like right wing war mongering born again Christians...like, how do you read the New Testament and what Jesus preached and come to these whack ass conclusions. How do you profess to love the earth and honor nature and come down on the side of the people who want to rape the land.

UR DOIN IT WRONG.