Do you believe George W. Bush was elected in 2000 and re-elected in 2004?

[bobthedrummer]

I, for one, realize that he occupies the Office of POTUS-but he was installed to begin with and wasn't re-elected.

What do you think?

[ccpup]

1. 2000 was an obvious coup d'etat

and I'll never forget the lines of people -- hours and hours long -- in Ohio in 2004 voting on one working machine in the Democratic County while 3 perfectly fine machines in the neighboring Republican County sat unused.

[DFW]

2. Second that!

Fraud, pure and simple, expertly planned, flawless executed, and 99% covered up.

[mod mom]

4. and it wasn't just Ohio (read Mark Crispin Miller & Greg Palast for other hot spots)

BTW...I heard from a former republican attorney that HW never won NH in '88, so while 2000 was the first blatant theft-it wasn't the first.

[Echo In Light]

87. Two highly informed and intelligent authors/journalists. Recommended!

[bobthedrummer]

3. What kind of administrations are "installed" in a representative Constitutional democracy?

That's a coup, isn't it? Then these installed regimes may have a "vote" but it's meaningless, unconstitutional and criminal.

[kestrel91316]

56. If the administration is illegal because the election was stolen, I assume

that any appointments that "president" made or any bills he signed would be null and void, right?

A girl can dream.........

[Thothmes]

81. Not if confirmed by the Senate

[kestrel91316]

88. If he isn't a legal president, then his signature is not valid.

Senate or House passing legislation is only part of the process.

[Botany]

5. I live in Ohio

http://www.thousandreasons.org/get_article.php?article_id=13

[balantz]

6. Absolute Theivery!!

The SCOTUS was bought and paid for to stick the silver spoon in Bush-baby's putrid orifice!

[AndyTiedye]

7. STOLEN!

"We make Democracy DIE"

[Breeze54]

8. Gore was elected!!! -- * was appointed - Not elected!

:grr:

[Whisp]

9. yes, he was elected and re-elected by Diebold.

no, he wasn't elected and re-elected by citisen's votes.

[Skittles]

10. anyone who thinks that lying, thieving bastard was elected is a fucking IDIOT

very, very stupid people

[Swamp Rat]

15. Beat me to it

Whoever voted "yes, he was elected and re-elected" is a fucking idiot.



You heard me... STUPID, IDIOT!

:dunce: :dunce: :dunce:

[Kahuna]

37. Amen Sister. nt

[DangerDave921]

83. Count me an idiot then

Sorry, but I don't buy into the stolen election theory. I really don't. It was an amazingly close vote in Florida, and it was a total clusterfuck for 36 days after that. But I don't think there was any premeditated attempt to steal the election.

And there's always the little matter of Tennesse that's always bugged me. If Gore had just won his home-state, Florida would have been taken out of play.

[buff2]

11. Khriiiiiiisssssst!!!!!!

Who are the six knuckleheads who think that idiot was ELECTED.......AND TWICE???? :grr:

[seemslikeadream]

13. Do you really think they will own up to it?

[buff2]

14. No.......

"freepers" never own up to anything. :hi:

I have to get off here....my computer is running super slow right now. It's hard to answer anyone when it takes forever to get it on the board. :grr:

[Skittles]

20. no because they are f***ing COWARDS

absolutely

[seemslikeadream]

22. Must be those OCTers

[mod mom]

48. The DLC STILL do not acknowledge Gore won:

Strange Theory on Why Gore Lost



The so-called Democratic Leadership Council has decided that Al Gore should have acted more like a Republican in order to win the 2000 presidential electoral college vote in addition to his nationwide popular vote victory. This strange finding has drawn some attention, including coverage by the Associated Press and the Environmental News Service -- we have a few excerpts from their reports for you here.
Al Gore, the self-styled environmental candidate in the 2000 Presidential election, lost his bid for the White House because he campaigned on an outdated "populist" platform that was too liberal for most Americans, according to a new report drafted by the Democratic Leadership Council.

The 40-page report, titled "Why Gore Lost, And How Democrats Can Come Back," concludes that the Democratic Party must move towards the political right -- towards the Republicans -- if it wants to regain control of Congress in 2002 and the White House in 2004.

Al From, the DLC's founder and CEO, opened a freewheeling discussion forum by arguing that Democrat Al Gore made a huge tactical mistake by continually emphasizing that he would "fight for the people and not the powerful" as the nation's first president of the 21st Century.

-snip

http://www.progress.org/goredlc2.htm

[Thothmes]

82. I was one one of them

Whether any of us like it or not. whether we believe that * was appointed, annointed or stole it, the fact remains that his election to the presidency was the responsibility of the Electorial Collage. This is as required by the Consitituion of the United States. Some times in U.S. history, a president was elected tha did not win the popular vote. The Constitution does not require a popular vote win to be elected President. JMO

[K Gardner]

12. What makes us think *they* can't do it a 3rd time??

I'm serious. This concerns me much much more than the ongoing bickering about who is going to get the Democratic nomination. It doesn't really matter if they've already figured out a way to steal their 3rd race for the WH.

[riqster]

44. Massive turnout is the key

If over 60% of the public votes for the Dem, it is too dangerous to steal an election-vote fraud depends on thin margins to be plausible.

[magellan]

66. How do you know 60% voted Dem, is the question

And more to the point, how do you prove it if the exit polls and final tallies are brought into line supporting the Repub?

We saw this happen in '04.

[Hippo_Tron]

86. We control the Governors and or SoS office in most of the swing states now

In 2004, the Republicans had a huge advantage at the local level allowing them to control the voting process. In 2008, we have that advantage.

Florida is the only swing state where the Republicans are still in power.

[MiniMe]

16. It depends on what your definition of "elected" is

[bridgit]

17. yes, by the 'numbers'? were the 'numbers' *massaged*? no doubt...

[DemGa]

18. Shrub is illegitimate

Installed, then stolen in Ohio. Only "Resident" will do for the chimp.

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. Oh yeah, "elected" in 2000 by a 5-4 vote and "re-elected" in '04 by massive election fraud.

So no, I don't believe he was elected for either term and I am pretty sure he knows he wasn't, which is why he is so arrogant and condescending. The little puke knows that the majority of voters in both elections didn't want him and he couldn't care less.

[bdamomma]

28. I would love to wipe that smirk off his arrogant face too.

[book_worm]

21. In 2000 I think he lost both popular and electoral vote, in 2004 I think he lost electoral vote

and thus the presidency, but he stole it again.

[Rex]

23. Nope, not in Florida and not in Ohio.

Obvious fraud that the M$M coverd up and tries to this day to make us forget.

[Cha]

24. Hell NO!

But, the m$$$$m have done everything they can think of to make sure the GP are not aware of that bit news..

[Pastiche423]

25. Who are the fucking cowardly idiots that voted Yes?

[B Calm]

62. FREEPERS

[Thothmes]

84. I am neither a coward ,idiot nor a freeper.

The Electoral College elected him president, not the Supreme Court nor Ohio, nor Florida. The Constitution of the United States desperately needs to be amended to eliminate the Electoral College. Until that is accomplished this short of shit will continue to happen.

[Pastiche423]

89. The electoral college had zip to do w/either election

In 2000, he was appointed by the SCOTUS using the 14th amendment in a decision they stated would only apply to this one case. Their decision was bullshit.

In 2004, the electin was rigged in several different ways which have been proven.

Educate yourself so you won't look like a moran.

[Thothmes]

90. Educate yourself

Show me the Court order that appoints Bush as President of the United States. As far as the Courts decision concerning the Flordia Election, I agree with you that it was BS. But read the Courts decision in the Florida Case. Nowhere does it direct that Bush is to be sworn in as President of the United States.

[Pastiche423]

91. Read Vincent Bugliosi's

The Betrayal of America, then get back to me.

[Swamp Rat]

94. Don't hold your breath.

:eyes:

[Pastiche423]

95. lol

No worries. I'll be breathing just fine.

The willfully ignorant no longer surprise me as much as they once did.

[Swamp Rat]

98. I love to burn the Straw Man,

especially those built by "Civil War reenactors." POW! BLAM! sizzle... :D

[Pastiche423]

99. Burn Baby burn!

[Swamp Rat]

96. "Show me the Court order that appoints Bush as President of the United States."

Classic Straw Man fallacy. And so is: "Nowhere does it direct that Bush is to be sworn in as President of the United States." Your argument is specious at best.

The net effect of the per curiam opinion was the appointment of Bushler.

[bdamomma]

26. I have gotten into many heated discussions about this very subject

and I will keep on saying we did not vote for him either time!!! we were all BS'd.

[DefenseLawyer]

27. Does everyone remember that bizarre scene election night 2004?

Everything was pointing to Kerry all day, then all of the sudden Bush summoned the press to the East Wing without explanation, where they found him on a big couch with is creepy family smirking into the camera and saying "I think we are going to win" and then immediately all the reporters started saying "Bush campaign officials now think that the exit polls in Ohio may be wrong". It made the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

[bdamomma]

31. yup, they had the whole thing planned and fixed.

we will rise up if they do it again, cause they are that low to do it again.

[K Gardner]

38. Yes, I remember. That was the point at which I started crying..

I knew they'd done it again.

[MotorCityMan]

64. I just felt numb

I remember leaving work with a woman who is a fellow democrat. She was all thrilled and optimistic about the exit polls projecting Kerry the winner. I just couldn't share her enthusiasm. I told her they stole 2000 and I think they're going to again.

[tridim]

49. Yes, and here's a photograph of the crime in progress.

[Octafish]

29. No Bush has ever been elected fair and square. Case in point: The OCTOBER SURPRISE

The October Surprise: The Verdict is Treason

[robertpaulsen]

58. Donald Gregg? That name sounds familiar.

Curiously, this writer knows of one former CIA contract officer who, before joining the Titan Corporation, worked as a Phoenix Coordinator in Vietnam in 1967. This same individual served in 1974 as a congressional liaison officer for CIA officer Donald Gregg. As Vice-President George H. W. Bush's National Security Advisor, Gregg helped to create the CIA's Counter Terrorism Center under Duane Clarridge in 1986. Gregg had managed the Phoenix Program in III Corps in Vietnam in 1970.

This unstated connection to the Phoenix Program, which was a major factor in the May Lai Massacre, is also significant in understanding what Hersh wants us to infer from his articles on national security issues. Specifically, as Hersh informed us in a December 2003 article in The New Yorker (titled "MOVING TARGETS: Will the counter-insurgency plan in Iraq repeat the mistakes of Vietnam?"), the CIA had formed a new Special Forces group, designated Task Force 121, to neutralize Baathist insurgents, by capture or assassination. According to Hersh, many of the anonymous officials he interviewed for his article feared that the new operation, called "preëmptive manhunting" by one of them, had "the potential to turn into another Phoenix Program."

snip

The Phoenix Program "got out of control," Hersh reported. "According to official South Vietnamese statistics, Phoenix claimed nearly forty-one thousand victims between 1968 and 1972; the U.S. counted more than twenty thousand in the same time span. Some of those assassinated had nothing to do with the war against America but were targeted because of private grievances. William E. Colby, the C.I.A. officer who took charge of the Phoenix Program in 1968 (he eventually became C.I.A. director), later acknowledged to Congress that "a lot of things were done that should not have been done."

http://counterpunch.org/valentine05082004.html

My Lai, October Surprise, Iran/Contra, Niger forgeries. Notice how it's always the same guys? How do they get away with it?

Thanks for that link Octafish, I'm bookmarking this thread just for that alone.

[baldguy]

30. No and HELL NO!

[RebelSansCause]

32. Who the FUCK voted YES? i respect the undecided on 2004. for myself it is a clear case of

FUCK NO and NO.

[donheld]

33. George W has never been elected president

of the United States.

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Hell NO. He's still an illegitimate piece of

SHIT....living in Al Gore's house.:grr:

[Initech]

35. '00 = popular vote meaningless. '04 = stolen by machines.

How will the repukes pull off their '08 "victory"? Stay tuned.

[Stevepol]

61. It will be harder to steal 08 but not impossible by any means

In 06 the exit polls had Dems winning by 11% but the voting machine results had it only 7%.

That was a 4% tilt, about the same tilt as it was in 04. In other words, nothing changed in 06.

In order to win in 08, the Dems will have to win by at least 7-11% and perhaps more. It all depends on how much the machine programmers decide to tilt the vote. The American people have no way to insure a fair vote count since we don't have a democracy anymore, but if the margin of victory this time is great enough, it still might be possible for the Dems to win.

04 was bought and paid for long before the election, and 08 is being bought and paid for as well. The only question is whether the margin of victory for the Dems will be large enough to offset the machine tilt that is certain to happen.

[Jamastiene]

36. You are shitting us, right?

You actually needed to ask? Wait, there are some people here to do believe he actually "won." :eyes: I don't think he won either time. It went more like this: "Daaaaaddddyyyy, make the Supreme Court gimme it. I wanna be presidddeeeeennnnt. Daaaddddyyyy! Whaaaaaaa!" So, now we are stuck with that fucking idiot. :eyes:

[LeftishBrit]

39. He was definitely not elected in 2000

I don't think we'll ever know for sure if he was elected in 2004.

[Vinca]

40. What's worse than looking back on the nightmare that was 2000 and 2004

is what will happen in 2008. I remember right after the 2004 election there was outrage over the voting machines, dirty tricks and voter disenfranchisement, but - in the end - nothing much has been done. I won't be surprised at all to see another close election and Rudy heading off to bed instead of watching through the night and the numbers suddenly switching in the wee hours. Deja vu all over again.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

41. I love no-brainer polls first thing in the morning! nt

[Alter Ego]

42. 2000 was pretty damn blatant, but in 2004 they either hid it much better

or legitimately conned nearly 60 million people. Considering the abysmal stupidity of most of America, I'm inclined to believe the latter.

[deutsey]

51. Yeah, I have doubts about 2004, but there's no question Bush lost 2000

[Balbus]

43. To answer several questions in one post...

I'm one who voted yes and yes. I believe the stolen election conspiracy is about as bat-shit crazy as the 911 conspiracies. My guy lost - twice. Sitting around whining "Cheater! Cheater!" is not a resolution to failed strategy.

So pile up the replies and I'll take a look at them later when I have time. Until then - worry about 2008 and stop whining about 2000 and 2004.

Peace.

[Snarkturian Clone]

46. I admire your honesty

For the record, I voted undecided because I think 2000 was a real fuck-up but I'm still undecided about 2004.

"worry about 2008 and stop whining about 2000 and 2004."

Definitely agree.

[kenfrequed]

54. Uhm

Actually there is ample evidence of voter fraud and suppression.

I think the only thing that has prevented succesful prosecution of these crimes is the lengths this administration goes to in politicizing the justice department and packing the place with cronies.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. He lost in 2000 and won in 2004

Obviously, 2004 was fruit of the poisonous tree, but I do think he "legitimately" won that election, which he should have taken in an absolute landslide, but in fact just eeked out. The goings on in Ohio were typical political stuff, sad to say, and probably didn't turn it.

[iamthebandfanman]

69. i dunno bout that

ohio was pretty quetionable in 2004.

kinda the same scenerio occured with the election officials being republican n what not...

[Fly by night]

47. It's Bob the poll guy!! At least this beats another Presidential preference poll.

Unless we keep working to bring integrity back to our voting booths, this pattern will continue.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

50. regardless

50 million Americans (or so) voted for the nimrod in 2000 AND 2004.

[kenfrequed]

53. Uhm

Those numbers might not be that high.

Particularly when you consider all the towns of 5000 that recorded 8000 votes for Bush.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

71. ok 49 million Americans

I was in Ohio at the time, and I can assure you, there were numerous, numerous Bush supporters there.

Believe it or not...

[kenfrequed]

75. Uhm

Most electoral observers use exit polls to gauge how legitimate an election is.

The exit polls trend very accurately. When they are off it is one of the warning signs that the election has been rigged.

[OneBlueSky]

52. I can't believe there are 16 "yes" votes . . .

apparently some people haven't been paying sufficient attention . . .

either that, or they're trolls . . .

[cboy4]

59. I'd wager it's a combination of trolls and flat out

imbeciles.

After all, both are not exactly mutually exclusive.

[Prophet 451]

55. Define "elected"

2000 was blatantly stolen. Between losing the popular vote, the caging lists (covered by Palast) and the Florida Ballots Project's finding that a full recount would have favoured Gore, we can be cast-iron certain of that one. What makes that doubly annoying is that Florida law required a state-wide recount when the polling was that close. In other words, had Florida law been followed, President Gore would probably be working out what to do in retirement right now.

2004 is a bit more dubious. Several dubious swings in voting tallies in areas using machines without papertrails (and ONLY in those areas) raises some very serious questions. I seem to recall seeing here that the odds of such a combination of swings happening without outside intervention was thousands to one. So while it's not a fact (as the 2000 theft is), I'd say the 2004 election was probably stolen (pending further evidence, of course).

[politicasista]

57. He was never elected to anything n/t

[Hosnon]

60. No BUT...

I believe he was not elected in 2000 but was elected in 2004. As a result, I do not believe that he was BOTH elected in 2000 and elected in 2004.

[Reader Rabbit]

63. Why didn't you make "Fuck, no!" one of the choices? - n/t

[stirlingsliver]

65. No! NO! A Thousand Times: N.O.

No.

He was NOT elected.

He was the beneficiary of a corrupt "justice" system that allowed him -- and his corrupt gang of slimy, insect-like, toady bags of shit to become the worst "maladministration" ever seen in the Western Hemisphere!

[Elspeth]

67. There should be two choices: "No" and "I believe in the Easter Bunny"

NT

[DeeDeeNY]

68. No way was he ever elected!

[Imagevision]

70. The new world order simply stepped in for changes they needed to make and

Bush was/is nothing more then spokesman for the group, Senior Bush vowed they could depend on his boy to deliver and and all reality he did exactly that. And he still has one more year to blow up Iran and set them back..oh, ten years?

[lpbk2713]

72. I hope Katherine Harris gets what's coming to her one of these days.

Being shafted by Jeb and Dumbya was nowhere near adequate.

[MadBadger]

73. For one to be re-elected, that means they had to be elected in the first place

I believe he wasnt elected in 2000, but was in 2004.

[lonestarnot]

74. Never fucking elected.

[eridani]

76. What about "I don't know"?

The PTB destroyed plenty of evidence, you know.

[MonkeyFunk]

77. He was elected

by the electoral college - the only vote that matters.

I don't like it any more than you do.

[Hoof Hearted]

78. He was not elected the first time

I remain in limbo re: the second time.

[Quixote1818]

79. Probably not. nt

[Cobalt-60]

80. the word is Usurper

The state has been in the clammy grip of criminals for seven years.
The Republican party can never be forgiven for this.
Never.

[Hippo_Tron]

85. Gore was elected in 2000. 2004, who the fuck knows?

Was there voter fraud in Ohio? Yes

Is there proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Kerry won? Nope

[Yukari Yakumo]

92. Yes and no.

Yes, because technically he was...

No, because if the Dems ran a better campaign, we would be talking about either President Gore or President Kerry. It wasn't so much as Chimpy got elected but we let him win (steal) the election.

[Orsino]

93. Sort of.

The obvious theft and the incidental theft will never, ever be sorted out, nor will we ever know how much of it * was responsible for. Or Rove. The votes he legitimately won scare me more than the secret schemes.

Let's say that his team successfully gamed the system, exploiting its every weakness, while most of us sat and did nothing to stop them.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

97. He wasn't elected in 2000, but probably elected in 2004

He likely did win the popular vote in 2004, but shenanigans in Ohio 2004 possibly prevented John Kerry taking the electoral college without the popular vote.