So I was talking to an airline pilot at JFK the other day.

[TomInTib]

Yours truly was one of those lucky souls flying out of NYC on Wednesday (JFK to LAS (Las Vegas) only took 18 hours, gate-to-gate).

But before we got on the plane, he struck up a conversation with me at the gate. Turns out he is in Naval Reserve. Military types usually spot me right away as one of them.

He long ago left active duty but has been called back for Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Told me that he has around 30 friends who are Navy and Marine pilots in IRR Individual Ready Reserve).

They have been called back and are undergoing a two week training regimen so they can drive convoys in Iraq.

Think about it. Some of the best (and most expensively trained) pilots in the world will soon be driving trucks thru red-hot zones.

He said that they were picked because of vision and reaction times.

I think this is absolutely outrageous.

[liberal N proud]

1. Only in the fascist state we call America

[napi21]

2. THAT'S total BS! It costswell over 1 million $ to train a pilot, the

Shrub is squandering that to get somebody to do a job that most any 18 year old can do? What is WRONG with these people?????????

[Edweird]

19. well, the only way they'll get those 18 year olds

is by DRAFT. And the second they start that, it's ALL OVER for dipshit. So retired pilots are gonna be recalled as truck drivers so jerkwad can have his war of choice.

[Ilsa]

21. Mommies would rather see their 18 year olds bagging

bananas than driving a convoy through Baghdad! And pilots don't have anyone to bomb right now.

The flip side: I don't mind that qualified personnel have to do "low end work" from time to time. As a registered nurse, I still had to shovel shit from time to time.

[napi21]

29. Oh, Ilsa, I didn't mean they shouldn't have to do low level work

just because they're pilots! I'm looking at the common sense side here. A relatively untrained person CAN"T fly a fighter plane, the same as you probably can't perform heart surgery. That doesn't mean that the heart surgeon shouldn't empty a bed pan once in a while, or the pilot shouldn't fight in a bunker if he has to. It just seems irrational to me to risk the trained professional's life to perform a fairly common job, the same as it would be silly to de,amdyou or a heart surgeon to climb on a building ledge to save a patient. That's just wasting the benefit of your training.

[TomInTib]

40. I am sorry, Ilsa, but you are off-base, here.

After SO guys, pilots are the most valuable and irreplaceable members of our armed forces.

For them to be driving trucks is just inexcusable.

It is much like sending a neurosurgeon to work as a roughneck on a drilling rig.

"So they lose a few fingers, they still have the rest of 'em".

[razors edge]

51. When I was an F-4 mechanic

our Marine pilots spent three years turning and burning and one year pounding the ground, kept them in contact with what it was they were there to protect.

[Bucky]

55. Thank you for serving.

I'm trying to make it a habit this year to thank at least one vet a year for serving our country. Since the ex Marine major on staff at my school would probably get pissed if I thanked him a second time, I'm thanking you.

[razors edge]

131. ...

:hi: :hi:

[SammyWinstonJack]

176. If they support george's war, let them do what it takes, be it low level grunt work or whatever.

They "volunteered" after all! I have no sympathy for any of them.

[Ilsa]

193. I realize it is an waste of resources, but I also have known

more than one or two with an attitude that if they couldn't fly, why bother being in the military. My husband and I have had too many family members in the military shovelling shit from time to time as their patriotic contribution when they weren't on recon or firing howitzers. I don't see a need to create flight jobs for pilots if drivers are what is needed.

[haele]

52. Rumsfeld doctrine - troops are fungible

A body is a body, no matter what training you have. The only thing to consider is whether or not you are qualified - so if you are trained and skilled in at one level, any job that requires skills below yours you can also do.

The way they threw away money in "reconstruction", why should it surprise anyone that they are willing to throw away close to a million in training and another million to keep up the skills by having a pilot be a truck driver. After all, to the averaged "unsophisticated" neocon, a pilot is only a jumped up vehicle driver...

Haele

[sweetheart]

118. I'm sure they're better drivers

Clearly the problem is that young boys are not good enough drivers, they disobey the
traffic laws and cause a bad example that has caused the population of iraq to erupt into civil war.

Its all about the driver, they got that right; bush's standing on the handlebars laughin for a crash.

[Toots]

136. So don't you think Bush* should have to pay the government back that money?

I am talking about his own training. After training was complete he just quit even though he signed a foirm saying he would continue flying after training was done...

[TahitiNut]

3. And someone not qualified to drive a truck ...

... sits in the Offal Orifice steering the country into a ditch. :puke:

[cui bono]

7. But he does have some experience behind a bulldozer. nt

[TahitiNut]

12. Yes. True. It seems most of his experience is with things beginning with "bull___"

:silly:

[cui bono]

50. lol. True dat!

and not surprising that one included dozer.

[Divernan]

4. Hey, K&R this to keep it alive for tomorrow morning.

That is horrifying news! At one end of the spectrum, the Army is taking more and more felons; at the other end, Bush continues to cannibalize the best and the brightest of our military. I'd call that behavior treasonous and/or insane.

[Benhurst]

32. Recommended #7

[fooj]

5. Quick! Hide the highlighters!

:spray: Sorry, my friend. I couldn't resist.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

17. ya beat me, ms. fooj . . .

:spray:

[Poiuyt]

47. I was thinking the same thing!!

[TomInTib]

35. I still cannot believe I did that...

I just couldn't help myself.

Fuck him.

I was just burning with anger, watching that smug ass standing there in his cute little loafers.

If we had been in Tiburon, I would have beat the shit out of him.

But I didn't want to go to jail in Vegas.

I just wanted to go home.

[fooj]

85. Did you see this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=232535&mesg_id=234813

Can I call them, or what?

[TomInTib]

146. Thank you, fooj.

Hey, it's Pitchers and Catchers next week.

Let the Real Game begin!!

[Porcupine]

6. The military is desperate.

They are under orders to deny they are losing but they must be losing. There is no sane way that behavior like this would have been tolerated even in Vietnam. They are dredging up any excuse to haul people back into active duty because of casualties in Iraq.

This is pathetic and it's even more pathetic that our congresscritters pretend ignorance of the actual situation and do nothing. The non-binding resolution is of course not actually a threat to the BFEE.

[sanskritwarrior]

66. How are we desperate?

To say we aren't meeting our objectives in Iraq is one thing. Saying we are desperate is crazy, what is your criteria for this?

[Occulus]

105. Criteria: pilots fly planes. n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

121. Yes that's nice

But the more Tom tries to spin his story the more veterans like me and a few others are starting to see it is BS.......

[Porcupine]

117. You mean losing right?

Because nobody on this side of the Atlantic has any clue what the fuck the Pentagon's objectives are except: "grab the oil fields." What I hear people saying is that the US Army is LOSING.

Here at home the army is accepting felons and 40 year olds as new recruits along with green card holders with minimal english.

Iraq can be secured in the same sense that plowing a feild kills the weeds. It kills the crop too but the weeds are dead. The people do not want the US military there. Not enough of the soldiers understand the language. Not enough soldiers understand the culture. You can't govern from inside an APC.

On the ground you are tactically fucked. Your APC's and up-armored Humvee's can be cracked by a coffee cans worth of plastique with a copper plate on the end (explosively formed projectiles). What does one of those things cost to make; $50. Oh, you don't have enough troops to walk into a neighborhood and hold it against the next crew that is going to come plant more coffee cans for you to find. The "Iraqi army is a joke and everybody knows it.

Helicopters are getting shot down wholesale. That means more convoys and more exposure to EFP's. Which translates to more vehicles damaged and destroyed and you don't have enough to start with.

DVD's of snipers killing your troops are selling like hotcakes in every muslim marketplace in the world. There are 1 billion muslims in the world and a larger fraction every day thinks the US is the enemy.

Afghanistan is a stalemate in a country that learned how to live with everything the Soviet armed forces had to throw at them short of nukes. The Taliban gets to trot back to Pakistan for R&R when they get tired of playing cat and mouse with the US and NATO.

Short of nuking Baghdad and retreating back to the oilfields you've got nothing new. The "hearts and minds" thing is a joke. Abhu Gharaib killed that dead.

Did I miss something?

[sanskritwarrior]

120. Not at all

I'm not seeing the desperate part. Sorry.......I'm really not. My troops are still highly motivated, of course they and I hope we don't go again at the end of the year, but morale at least in my battalion is still high. I'm sure you see a desperate Army, I see one that is strained but still functioning with good order and disicpline, highly motivated soldiers and with the values all Americans hold dear. So I guess we are seeing different things, by far things are not all rosy and peachy, but the Army at least still functioning at almost full speed. Can't talk about the other services......

[Porcupine]

124. I see video of Army guys laughing.......

as the Iraqi troops they're "training" beat the crap out of POW's. I've seen video of Humvees repeatedly ramming civilian vehicles on Iraqi roads. I've seen whole photo galleries of destroyed vehicles that used to contain living soldiers. I hear interviews with soldiers on NPR who are denied mental health care for PTSD.

It's nice that your guys have good morale. I might think it meant something if there were some indication that there was any hope of a stable Iraq where civilians could live in some semblance of peace and order. That isn't the case. The US military has turned Iraq from a functional nation into a Somalia or Chechnya analogue. Tell me Iraq is a better place to live than before the invasion. Tell me the US Army has an effective counter measure to EFP's.

Tell me that there is somewhere in Baghdad outside of the Green Zone where a lone american can walk the streets among civilians and survive. Tell me that we know where those missiles that are downing choppers are coming from.

Short of pulling another Fallujah maneuver or emptying the city of Baghdad like Pol Pot emptied Phnom Penh US forces have not demonstrated the means to pacify Iraq. There were no terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion and no WMD's. I believe you are being used as mercenaries for the oil companies.

The sooner every US soldier in Iraq is back home with their family and the occupation is ended the better. Oh, and leave the Blackwater types there when you come home; we don't really want them back.

[noamnety]

133. "with the values all americans hold dear"

And what values would those be?

So far the ones I've heard from you are decidedly NOT my values.

[sanskritwarrior]

150. Duty, Sacrifice, Honor, Love of country, committment to its defense.....

There's a whole list of them.........

No need to be rude. You left the military for whatever reasons and seem to think it is a brainwashing school, I will serve my 20 and retire and think differently.

[noamnety]

154. In the time you've been in

have you served on any missions that defended our country in some way?

[sanskritwarrior]

156. Yes

of course our definitions of what missions met their criteria are going to be different.

[noamnety]

157. Care to list some examples?

I'd love to know how you "defended" America, and who was attacking it.

[sanskritwarrior]

165. LOL

no offense but i'm not taking your bait........

I feel I have defended America, you feel there has been no reason to defend America we are diametrically opposed......no real need to continue here.

[noamnety]

167. lol yourself

Not a whole lot of missions that the military's been on since ... gosh, have a century or so, that the general community here would consider "defending America."

Unless you mean defending corporate interests. :)

Not that Somalia, Haiti, Iraq, Vietnam, etc. WEREN'T huge threats to the American way of life. Wouldn't want to imply that. ;)

[sanskritwarrior]

172. I meant what i meant

you can parse it however you want, it doesn't make you right, but it might soothe your ego......

Also don't forget to add Bosnia and Kosovo to the huge threat list........:sarcasm:

[noamnety]

173. I don't believe there was ever a pretense

that that was about "defending America."

Iraq, on the other hand ... :eyes:

[frogcycle]

178. you might want to just recall

all those thermonuclear weapons the USSR had pointing at you, plus the ones they put in Cuba and ask yourself whether the US military, despite never engaging in hostilities with them, was "defending" you. For that matter, how long do you think various interests with designs on our still-roomy real estate would stay away if we had no military?

The primary purpose of the US military, despite warped opinions of the uninformed, is to PREVENT war. In so doing, they DEFEND AMERICA. Training and readiness is how they do that. This bunch of nutcases calling the shots now has us on a fast-forward to that valhalla you seem to yearn for when our military capability is destroyed, at which point we can be "peacefully" subjugated by anyone with whom they choose to align themselves. I'm betting China.

[noamnety]

180. The primary purpose of the US military is to "prevent" war.

And yet ... you'd never know it from their actions. :D

If all they did was train and maintain readiness, and do disaster relief, and if it were a nonprofit business instead of the military-industrial complex with all that that implies, I'd be right there in the choir with you.

I'd argue the point further, but I'm too busy eating an ice cream sundae with chocolate sauce and an entire container of whip cream in order to "prevent" myself from gaining weight.

[frogcycle]

181. the US military has yet to start a war

civilians do that. The military takes orders.

big business wants to sell lots of stuff to the military, so they get the civilians to make war.

Sure, some individuals highly trained to do a job may get a thrill out of actually getting to do it. But that is NOT the general focus of the military. The focus is to BE READY in case it is necessary.


As I said the PURPOSE of the military is to prevent war. They get re-purposed by people like der fuerher.

[noamnety]

185. No argument on whether the CINC is a civilian.

? Was there supposed to be?

There's lala fantasy land of what our military would do if it were a fully independent organization - which I don't think any of us want.

And then there's the reality of how it's actually used - no matter who's in office. You can't blame King George, or even his party, for all this:

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994-? Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime. Forces also engaged in neighboring Pakistan.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002 Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Muslim Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Second Gulf War launched for "regime change" in Baghdad. US, joined by UK and Australia, attacks from Kuwait, other Gulf states, and European and US bases.

http://www.neravt.com/left/invade.htm

[frogcycle]

187. not seeing a point to this, sorry

[noamnety]

189. The point is

pretty much every year, with very few exceptions, our military has been off doing imperialistic/colonialist/racist bullshit warfare for corporate interests.

I don't know the relevence of arguing that the US military isn't inherently imperialistic or isn't responsible for starting wars because the CINC is a civilian.

It's what they do. They go out and fight wars that have nothing to do with "defending America."

[frogcycle]

190. the relevence is right there in what you wrote

they don't do these things on their own. Don't blame them. It's the US government, elected by the population as a whole. The military follows civilian rule. That's the way the Constitution set it up. So if Congress and the President say invade somalia or tripoli or what have you, they do. And Congress and the President are to blame. Pointing a finger a the military as if they are the bad guys is a big copout. WE are at fault. WE put these people in charge. And no, I did not vote for any of them, but we the people collectively are to blame for what our country has become. I am ashamed, as should we all be. But I am proud of our service people for putting their lives on the line in an attempt to do the right thing, and get really testy both when they are treated poorly by the right-wing chickenhawks and when they are scapegoated by the left.

[noamnety]

191. I'm not scapegoating anyone

I'm a vet, worked for the army in varying capacities for about 15 years. My husband still works for the army. Just so we're clear on that.

What I'm objecting to is the mischaracterization of the missions the military performs (no matter who directs those missions) as primarily and mainly being the "Defense of America."

[rman]

132. What do you mean "we"?

[kestrel91316]

8. Send out most valuable people to be cannon fodder so rich wastrels

in the GWB mold don't have to worry about a draft.

Yep! Makes perfect sense to me!

[B Calm]

59. All people are valuable. It don't matter if your a pilot or truck driver!

As a professional truck driver I take a personal offense!

[Porcupine]

94. Hey, good truck drivers are worth their weight in gold.

they spend thousands of hours a year driving very large masses around a bunch of idiots in small helpless vehicles. A mistake by a truck driver kills easily and most rarely make mistakes if ever.

Trucker plug.

[frogcycle]

137. agree it was bad wording

but i don't think they meant to devalue you as a person

and frankly, this whole topic just reflects the "no good solutions" pall overriding this entire c-f

simply put, we bit off more than we could chew, and now are paying the price in myriad ways

[B Calm]

163. It sickens me that people here in DU put more value on military officers

than they do enlisted men. I know its that way in the corporate world too, but here in DU..

[kestrel91316]

147. No offense intended. Pilots have proven intellect and very valuable

skills that cost vast sums to develop. They are not a good resource to be wasting.

[madrchsod]

9. there`s close to 50,000 troops in japan

what the fuck do they do in japan?

[Bucky]

58. I think it has something to do with these guys

[sanskritwarrior]

64. Ok, except

a combat brigade deployed to Iraq from Korea......A military intelligence battalion deployed to Iraq from Korea, and a Signal Brigade (one of only 3 overseas) deployed to Iraq from Korea. Right now an infantry battalion is deploying to Afghanistan from Camp Casey.......

[sanskritwarrior]

62. that's why this story seem false

There are 15,000 soldiers in Hawaii not on deployment orders that have never deployed. There are 12,000 soldiers at Fort Lewis that have never left there........This story stinks more and more. Again TOMINTIB, i don't doubt you, I doubt the pilot......

[karlrschneider]

10. Are you sure he wasn't bullshitting you? Military pilots are officers

except for a few Warrant Officers in the Army...I find it hard to believe they'd drag a commissioned officer back in to drive trucks.

?

[Aviation Pro]

13. Lots of Warrant and Chief Warrants.....

...very few commissioned officers in the Army Aviation Corps.

[karlrschneider]

14. As I mentioned...but the OP referred to Navy. There are no WOs there.

...

[TomInTib]

25. Oh, yes there are.

But I do not know if there are any WOs flying in the Navy.

But the USN definitely has Warrant Officers. I know a bunch of them.

And these pilots he mentioned are both Navy and Marine.

[karlrschneider]

30. You're apparently right, as I just discovered. It's been many years since I was in the AF

just now found this - nobody bothered to tell me. So I sit corrected.

http://www.usawoa.org/WOHERITAGE/WO_Prog_Other_Svc.htm#CWO-to-Pilot

[sanskritwarrior]

71. Actually that is incorrect

Per aviation bn there are 25 officers to 45 WO's.......

Now of that number the LTC, the S-3 and definitely the XO will be pilots.
The s-2, S-4, and S-1 will not be.......

Down at the line companies of an AVN. BN there will be the CO who is a pilot, four companies per BN, and the platoon leaders will also be pilots as it is Branch specific for an Aviation Platoon leader to be a pilot. 3 platoons per company......

So if my math is right that means there are 19 out of 25 Officers that are pilots to 45 Warrant Officers in an Aviation BN. Now not all 45 warrants are pilots. There will be one safety officer per company as well as one at Battalion, All of those are warrants, with the HHC Battalion Safety Officer being the highest warrant in the unit. Also one Warrant will be Opconned to the s-2 to enhance the S-2's ability to assess the air threat and two warrants to the S-3 to assist in planning.

So that means there are 19 Officer pilots to 38 Warrant pilots, a 2:1 Ration for the Warrants.......

don't even get me started on officer slots up at AVN Brigade where you might find 10-20 Captains and Looey's waiting for a platoon or company command to open up........MI, AVN, and Signal are heavily staffed with officers. I would say that if you include all the Officers up at Brigade waiting for a command within the Battalion to open up and the Officers in the CAV squadron air troops there is about a 1:1 ration of officers to warrants.......

[Aviation Pro]

134. I stand corrected on the numbers....

...eom

[Marrah_G]

183. All Naval pilots are officers

They go through ahuge amount of schooling and training and many who attepmt the training every year fail. It really does take a very particular set of skills to do what they do.

[TomInTib]

20. The lines have been blurred.

There are guys working totally out of rate in the ME.

He wasn't bullshitting me. I told him who/what I am/was.

[karlrschneider]

24. Out of rate, yeah, but would any commissioned officer put up with that?

I sure as hell wouldn't have when I was in the AF. If things have changed THAT much, it's way worse than I even imagined....

:eyes:

[TomInTib]

28. They have no choice.

It has happened to me.

Just not this time around.

And I will gladly spend time in a brig rather than the ME.

[karlrschneider]

33. Well, that would be a 'choice', obviously (and I agree if they tried it with me)

see my other post about the Warrant Officer program - I had no idea it had been instituted just last year.

[sanskritwarrior]

75. Yes they do

I could get out of the Army in 2 months if I wanted to. I could pull my family care plan and poof.....I am chaptered out.....

[sanskritwarrior]

65. I think the same thing.....

doesn't pass the military (il)logic test........ :)

[Aviation Pro]

11. Questions....

...will they get paid as Os or Es? Is this a voluntary or involuntary recall? Have the airlines been informed that their flight crew workforce is about to be stripped? (Important because there is a pilot shortage now and nearly everyone who has been furloughed in the last five years has received a call back).

[Monkeyman]

15. Got a friend flies Dal-ta he got a call back

But its a wait a see one

[Aviation Pro]

22. A friend of mine who is currently an FO on an MD-88....

...told me this past week that Delta is going to hire 200 new pilots. They have gone down the furlough list and still have a shortage. Your friend should have a class date shortly and will probably have to take New York as a domicile for a year before bidding for someplace more commutable.

[TomInTib]

38. This was a Delta pilot who I was talking to.

I just didn't want to put that in the OP.

[TomInTib]

23. I only know the answer to one of your questions.

Absolutely involuntary.

They didn't even know what the training was for until they got where they were going.

And he said they were freaked.

Said he is getting out of IRR at his next opportunity.

And to think that I am eligible for call-up until I am 62 years old.

[Lars39]

27. What determines eligibility?

[TomInTib]

43. For whom, them or me?

They are in the IRR, voluntarily in most cases.

I am ex-SO and eligible until I am 62.

And I had no idea, way back then.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

177. As an Officer, if you resign your comission, you are theoretically not in the IRR or subject

to recall. But it's not enough just to get out, you have to specifically send a letter resigning your comission. This is what I did when I got out.

Now if you have earned retirement, I don't know if you can "resign" anymore. Or if you could, I'd assume you'd forefeit your right to any benefits like pension and healthcare.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

31. I won't let that happen.

You'll come live in my attic room. Free of charge. All you have to do is tell me stories.

We'll pick guitars in the afternoon.

And the ladies better watch out at night . . .

[TomInTib]

36. Nothing would please me more, COC.

I feel quite honored.

I have given much thought in regard to the end of my free life.

Safe Haven is all that I wish for.

Thank you.

Tom

[pnwmom]

44. Sorry for my ignorance, TomInTib, but what determines

how long a person is eligible for call-up? Is 62 the age for everyone in the ready reserve? Or is it individual?

Also, what's the difference between the (regular) reserve forces and the IRR? Is it that people in the IRR don't have to go in for regular training?

[TomInTib]

48. There is a fine line between Reserves and IRR.

IRR rides a lot longer than Reserve.

Check your inbox.

[5X]

67. We can all send you a care package of highlighters. n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

78. Again more proof

that this pilot was jerking Tom around........

[gulfcoastliberal]

16. I've no doubt they use Army privates to drive KBR convoys, usually

high ranking air officials on the ground link up with the marines or army/whatever to act as forward air controller, selecting targets for destruction. That's the way I understand it anyway. But I've also heard of airline pilots in the Guard flying fighters over Iraq. I think that jet shot down a month or so ago was piloted by a National Guard pilot. That IRR draft is outrageous.

[JeffR]

18. Skilled pilots driving trucks; drunken asshole in the Oval Office

What a deranged and preposterous world this is.

[kath]

26. Driving convoys?!?!? Jeebus H. Christ -

this is so fokked up as to be almost beyond belief...

[havocmom]

34. Guess if they get killed in Iraq, the companies they have been working for

won't own any pensions.

Yes, I AM that cynical now.

If they can kill off a lot of middle aged people, corporate pension liabilities (which are NOT gonna be met) become a non-issue instead of the time bomb with the short fuse all those liabilities are.

And, with older, more experienced, more savvy re how huge companies exploit, being taken out, younger workers will have to learn about corporate shit the hard way and they will be exploited for decades too, before being tossed on the trash heap when they get close to retirement

Yes, I AM that cynical now.

[TomInTib]

41. Now THAT is cynical

and scary.

[karlrschneider]

42. I'm at least as cynical as you, but I doubt the airline bean counters

are all that willing to be complicit in some scheme to create a pilot shortage for themselves.
Whatever else they think, hauling catt...I mean passengers is their revenue source...

[pnwmom]

45. Don't spouses get most corporate pensions? The ones that are vested?

[MountainLaurel]

49. The airlines

Have been reneging on worker pensions as delineated in contracts left and right in recent years, all while CEOs see record salaries.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

46. Delta's pilots' pension plan was terminated last year

as part of their bankruptcy proceedings. They will get some benefits from the PBGC, but much less than the full amount they would have received.

[babylonsister]

37. Jeeze. They should all join arms and refuse to go imo.

Many voices might make a point. This is outrageous-great way to honor experience, knowledge and ability.:eyes:

And 18 hours, JFK to Vegas? Oye!

[bonito]

39. And waiving basic induction test to boot

I remember when hunting years ago, anyone behind me with a loaded gun had to pass my muster, not so in Dick's army, and I know Murtha sees this as well.

[galloglas]

53. That's Incredible.

They train the pilots, then send them to drive trucks.

Bad enough but then its left for Bush and Cheney to "pilot".

Pile it here, pile it there, pile it on, pile it so damned deep no one can breath for all the Texas horseshit they spread around!

[sanskritwarrior]

54. Im in the military

and I'm not saying you are lying, but this guy might have been pulling your chain. I would like to see something other than an anecdotal story. It doesn't pass the smell test.......In fact I'll do some research on this myself as I don't find it believable at all. Again not saying you are lying, but the guy might have been pulling your chain. Shadowknows69 got his chain pulled by some Fort Drum guys that said 55 10th Mountain Division soldiers were killed in one month....I checked icasualties, less than 10 10th Mountain guys were killed that month, I posted the link for him and he saw the truth.......Military peeps like to tell tall tales to get stuff for free, to sound more Hooah than reality or for various other reasons......

[sanskritwarrior]

56. I would like to know where he is deploying to and when

I can go look on my computer at work on the NIPR and see if it is true.......In fact I can go look and see how many people from any unit are deploying.....It's good to be the Company movement NCOIC.......

[pnwmom]

61. Why would you sound more "Hooah" if you are stuck driving a convoy

instead of piloting a plane?

Doesn't sound like bragging to me . . .

[sanskritwarrior]

63. Then you have no concept of what is HOOAH

saying you are a pilot that is going to drive a dirt stick is definitely for emphasis. I will do some research but I don't believe the pilot was being honest with TOMINTIB.

[pnwmom]

68. So tell me. What is HOOAH?

[karlrschneider]

73. A loud expression of gung-hoism whether genuine or manufactured.

The 101st Keyboard Kommandos have their version, and minimally educated, effectively indoctrinated
recruits embrace a somewhat different flavor of it.

[sanskritwarrior]

76. LOL

I wanted her to tell me what kind she wanted.

[sanskritwarrior]

74. You want the literal definition or the grunt one?

n/t

[pnwmom]

81. Either. Both. n/t

[karlrschneider]

69. FWIW, I questioned the veracity of whoever told Tom that, as well earlier in this thread

the aroma is just a bit 'off'...

[TygrBright]

57. Maybe it's time for all of our skilled, patriotic veterans...

...to say "Fine. Brig me. I care too much about my country and my service, not to mention my ass and my family's well-being, to let those psycho chickenhawks completely degrade and decimate America's military capabilities in a world they've made hostile to us. Coupla years in Leavenworth or wherever, it's worth that."

Gay-ron-TEE you, all it'll take is fifteen hundred or so of the best to fill up cells, cost 'em money to feed, medicate, exercise, etc., for a few months, and either they'll pull our sons and sisters and moms and brothers and dads out of that shithole over there (that's ending it the easy way), or they'll institute a draft. Which will bring the war to an end the hard way.

I promise you this... if our reserves do this, and those chickenhawk crayondicks try to mess with your vet's benefits, I'm a-gonna park my ass in Pete Domenici's office and they'll haveta call the cops and jail me to get me out.

It just makes me breathless with rage what these bought-and-paid-for corporate helots who never in their lives risked anything more than a hernia or a hangnail are doing to our volunteer military.

berserkly,
Bright

[sanskritwarrior]

60. One more time today

Until Congress rescinds the IWR I will personally testify against any officer or any of my lower enlisted guys that refused to deploy. WE DO NOT GET TO DECIDE POLITICS. The military is a tool and irregardless of us having good leaders or bad leaders, a breakdown of good order and discipline is a dangerous precedent. Soldiers refusing to obey orders sets a precedent for a future coup. NOW IF AND WHEN CONGRESS rescinds the IWR, I will be the first platoon leader to get my guys to Washington D.C. to take our government back. Until then any soldier of mine that tries this crap I will try and get the chain of command to charge them with the harshest UCMJ violations I can squeeze out of the JAG....

[5X]

70. What of it being an illegal war and following illegal orders?

Just asking, never been in the military, but,
this war is illegal and lots of illegal things have
gone on over there.

[sanskritwarrior]

72. Show me one federal ruling that says the war is illegal.

Without Congress or the Supreme Court stating the war is illega, I am violating UCMJ if I don't follow what are "right now ", "Today" legal orders. Soldiers do not get to decide political legality

[karlrschneider]

82. You're right in principle but not in practice.

The military is full of people, namely Petreus, Pace and formerly Franks who are and were essentially given carte blanche to invent foreign policy IWR Iraq. Surely you've heard them publicly bloviating
about matters of State concerning this ...'situation'...?

edit: All of which doesn't impress me...I worked directly for a Lt. General years ago who didn't have enough brains to come in out of the rain, literally. I'd say more but I think he's still alive.
I should check it out, he could be.

[Warren Stupidity]

164. A war of aggression is a war crime.

Wars of aggression are in and of themselves illegal. The UN charter, which holds legal status here in the US as a signed and ratified treaty clearly states that such wars are illegal. The London agreement after WWII clearly states that wars of aggression are war crimes. The Nuremburg trials clearly established that orders and legislation are no defense and that a war of aggression is a crime against humanity.

[sanskritwarrior]

166. And a resolution approved by congress

overrides the UN charter. Look you can cite the UN charter and nuremberg all you want, they do not carry the force of US law behind them when it comes to deploying to Iraq. say it all you want, but in the world I live in I get prosecuted for trying to use the Nuremberg or UN defense. The law while not very palatable is what it is. You will not convince me otherwise, not because I have a closed mind, but because I have a duty that I have sworn to uphold. I am not able to solve political problems, and the day the military starts to take matters into its own hands to overthrow our government no matter who is elected is the day I become a rebel in revolt against that military. CONGRESS must revoke the IWR until then you will not see many soldiers that will do anything against our orders.......

You can cite agreements, treaties and charters all day long, until congress does something about it, it means NOTHING!!!!!! That is reality.

[Warren Stupidity]

195. Uh no - congress did not authorize a war of aggression.

They authorized a war to enforce disarmament of Iraq on very shaky grounds of self defense. It turned out of course that those grounds were fraudulent, that Iraq was not in violation of UN resolutions, that Congress had been deliberately lied to. Further, the UN inspection process was halted by our executive, further weakening the case for a just war.

At the point that our military realized that the WMD threat did not exist they had an obligation to end their illegal war on Iraq.

[TygrBright]

79. I respect your POV and would agree with regards to...

...active-duty troops.

However, I think reserves fall in a slightly different category and although every one I know takes her/his service oath very seriously indeed, I think there is a gray area between "ready" and "active." Reserves are the bridge (as it were) between citizens who are not service personnel and service personnel on duty. We who are not service personnel have a moral obligation as a citizen NOT to abuse our service personnel or to allow them to be abused.

Reserves (yes, and Guards/part-time militia) share both the obligations of the active service personnel AND the obligations of the citizens who are not serving. I think it is a valid choice for them (and a very courageous one) to say "I'm not letting you abuse me, I'm not colluding in the crimes you are committing, I am not enabling you to abuse my active comrades."

You may differ, and I can respect that and agree to differ. My Dad was a Marine and although his views about war, service, and human conflict changed a great deal over the course of his life, the Corps was always first. He might have agreed with you.

But he might not have, too.

philosophically,
Bright

[frogcycle]

142. sorry, you are inventing a "grey area"

legal vs illegal orders are pretty well-defined.

If a grunt is ordered to shoot a handcuffed prisoner in the head, the grunt is expected to know the difference and disobey. THAT is what the obligation to disobey clearly illegal orders is for. And actually, there can be mitigating circumstances there. If someone has a gun to the grunt's head, he may be in the clear.

The nuances of whether lies were used to start the war, whether people are being sent without proper training and equipment, whether the Guard is being used appropriately, are 'way above the individual paygrades. We do not expect, not permit, every uniformed military person to play Supreme Court Justice in deciding whether to obey orders.

Even with all the precedent of our having tried and convicted Germans and Japanese for war crimes, this is still a very difficult legal topic, and following orders is fundamental.

[sanskritwarrior]

149. Nice post frogcycle

This is exactly what I mean. It would be disastrous for this nation if every soldier started questioning every order based on how we "fell" about that order. I leave the political aspect of resolving our deployment to Iraq in the hands of the politicians where it belongs and will oppose any soldier that thinks they are the smarter than our politicians when it comes to politics and our role to this nation.

[frogcycle]

155. As much as i oppose this c-f

I get incensed when people try to claim that the people in uniform are obliged to solve our political problems. They cannot do that any more than they can solve Iraq's.

We HAVE had cases where people either acted illegally without orders, or in some cases perhaps should have questioned the orders (Abu Ghraib - maybe). UCMJ has been invoked and courts-martial have been conducted, or are pending. There are no doubt other incidents that have (so far) gone undetected. "Good soldiers" are obliged to report if they believe laws are being violated, and my suspicion is that there is an atmosphere of peer-pressure limiting that in some cases. This may be a result of several compromises that have been made to conduct these wars, including:

- use of Nat Guard far beyond its intent,
- extended tours, shortened time between tours,
- dumb and hazardous rules of engagement,
- inadequate equipment,
- flaunting of the contrast in pay by use of highly-paid contractors,
- poor service by same contractors (bad water, bad food, etc)
- cuts in VA benefits
- sorry support for dependents during deployment
- overtaxed medical system
- arrogant and patronizing use of "support the troops" in transparent political statements

There is plenty more; this is just what came to me off the top of my head. To be somehow expecting these people whom our government has so abused vs. what they signed up for to solve through mutiny, punishable by death, the problems that very government has created is beyond ludicrous.

I have written elsewhere that I do believe that as this dismantling of the Constitution progresses, the day may come when something as yet unprecedented in our nation's history may be necessary, and some extremely patriotic and brave TOP BRASS may be called upon to decide between their oath to defend the Constitution and their obligation to take orders from the CIC. I, for one, will support them if they decide to take a stand, but I do not envy them their position. I would hope that back-channel communications with congressional leaders would precede any action, and someone would "have their six."

I suspect some of the recent changes at the top may, in fact, be in anticipation of that day. The people running this coup are covering all the bases.

[karlrschneider]

80. That's admirable, but as a "good soldier", you may very well be called on to

decide at some point which 'orders' are valid and legal. One could argue, perhaps effectively, that the IWR has fulfilled or exceeded its purpose and intent and is no longer legally operative. The Nuremburg tribunals gave us perspective and precedent for some of these issues, please don't forget that.

In any case, it's unlikely JAG is gonna be on your side if it conflicts with the agenda of the PNAC,
so you're really equivocating here. And there's no word 'irregardless'. :D

[Selatius]

103. I don't think deploying itself is illegal. However, specific other orders may be illegal.

There were allegations US pilots were given orders to drop white phosphorus in Fallujah the 2nd time the city was pacified. In that case, the only lawful thing to do would be to disobey that order because using white phosphorus as a weapon is considered a war crime; it's considered use of chemical weapons. There have been soldiers alleging that white phosphorus was used in that fashion.

Rescind the IWR. That'll provide troops the legal exit to get out.

[karlrschneider]

108. Well, the IWR was a stupid act yet it passed so we can't do much about that.

Surely someone with clout ought to be able to make the case that its intent was and has been fulfilled.
If by no more than *'s public announcement of "Mission accomplished" THREE YEARS AGO, nu?

It will probably be several years before the atrocities in Fallujah are fully revealed. Which is ironic, since most of the world already knows.

[sanskritwarrior]

111. EXACTLY

until then, any such talk of soldiers saying they will disobey is borderline treasonous. We in the military do not make policy, we execute policy. When Congress rescinds the IWR we will execute policy..........

[sanskritwarrior]

115. What can I say

I have a Texas zip code and I type dumb things.......

[countmyvote4real]

77. I think that you're right. n/t

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

83. Interesting...

...Begs the question of what they're really trying to accomplish. Stepping back and looking at the way BushCo has conducted this illegal invasion and occupation misusing and depleting our military resources, pludering the U.S. Treasury while gutting important domestic programs -- as nuts as this sounds, I can't help but wonder if their real aim isn't the utter destruction of the U.S. Maybe I'm crazy, but who in their right mind would use these pilots in this way?

[sanskritwarrior]

84. I don't think they are doing this at all.....

n/t......

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

86. You don't think they're bent on destruction of the U.S. or ...

... deploying experienced pilots in this way?

[sanskritwarrior]

89. The pilots

n/t

[karlrschneider]

87. I'd be very interested to hear your ideas on just why W actually DID

invade and occupy Iraq. Please understand I mean no offense, just genuinely curious as to what you actually think was the real motivation.

[sanskritwarrior]

90. 3 reasons

1. Oil
2. bush believes he is fighting terra over there so he doesn't have to fight it here
3. corporate profit

[karlrschneider]

92. Well, I agree totally. And all of which mitigate any refusal of military people

to acquiesce to what can likely be shown as patently illegal orders when and if challenged.

You've enumerated Bush's rationale, but clearly you don't believe them to be valid any more than I do.
It seems the buck stops at the lower echelons these days, and it shouldn't be that way.

[sanskritwarrior]

96. It doesn't matter if his rationale is are valid or not

until Congress or the Supreme court revoke the IWR or charge Bush with crimes. I will obey "legal orders", legal orders are ones approved by Congress, funded by the House and signed by the President. I know it probably makes your head spin, but it is a violation of my oath to do anything differently...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

102. The "just following orders" argument didn't pass muster...

...at Nuremberg. Not trying to suggest that you personally have done anything that approaches a war crime, but I would echo Karl Schneider's comment in post 80 and just add that the Geneva Conventions is a perfectly valid, legal document (as the U.S. is a signatory) for you to cite, if ever asked to give or follow orders you consider to be unconscionable acts. Your oath DOES NOT supersede this document, despite what your superiors may wish you to believe.

Admittedly, I do not understand much about how the military works, but I know our government has NO moral or legal right to ask members of our military to commit war crimes and that such orders can and should be lawfully refused. Not trying to make it sound like I think it's a simple cut and dry matter -- I know it's not.

Thank you for your service to our country. I hope you return safe, unharmed, soon, and for good.

[sanskritwarrior]

110. What are war crimes in regards to following legal orders?

My oath does not supersede the Constitution, you're right, but I do not get to decide what is legal in a political sense. Of course I have been trained on the Genevea Convention and would refuse an order to gun down innocent Iraqis. But an order to deploy somewhere is not following an illegal order. If I refuse I go to jail and if I go to jail, I let down the men in my platoon. Look I will not be swayed in my belief in what is legal or illegal, doesn't make me a freeper, doesn't make me a bushbot. I am following orders under a resolution that congress voted for and the President signed. Get the IWR pulled and then yes I'm with you. Until then, sorry, I'm not there and will never be there.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

116. I agree that it would be difficult to...

...make the case for an order to deploy, by itself, being illegal, however, examined in context as it relates to an illegal war/occupation, as described in the Geneva Conventions, it seems to me it could be lawfully refused.

I don't wish to draw you into a never ending debate on this -- I accept your position. I just hope you will be mindful of your options and would be willing to draw a line somewhere when/if pushed too far.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest you're a freeper or a bushbot, nothing you said gave me the impression that you are.

You owe no apologies for your position. Best of luck to you, I enjoyed our exchange.

[sanskritwarrior]

119. Thanks for your kind words

I've been called a proto-fascist for this viewpoint on DU and I'm starting to get a little testy. I also enjoyed our exchange, be cool have a good weekend.....

[eridani]

174. I think that people who say that--

--ought to google Truman + "Douglas MacArthur".

[Crabby Appleton]

192. In a practical sense - the Board of Members that comprise

the jury in a Court-martial decide what is a legal/illegal order, after the unit commander. If you assert that an order is illegal it will have to be on grounds that are accepted as clearly illegal by a majority of the Members (jury) of a Court-Martial which consists of military officers of an equal (one member) and higher rank. You'll get to see a real world example when 1LT Watada's court-martial goes to trial in a month or so in WA.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

194. Thank you. I wasn't aware of that...

...it seems our soldiers are placed in a very difficult position.

[karlrschneider]

104. But what ARE "legal orders" and who determines that? Who but the recipient

of them is in a position to say? If you're a Sergeant and a 2d Lt. tells you to kill everybody in a
village, do you automatically do it? Congress does NOT issue orders to the military...what kind of
straw-man argument is that? If you're in the U.S. military, your oath is first to the Constitution.
You can CYA up to a point with the defense "I was just followng orders" but that only goes just so far...ask the defendants at Nuremburg. I agree mostly with you, but don't try to bullshit me. I won't buy it from you any more than I'll buy Tom in Tib's.

[frogcycle]

179. see #142

you make absurd comparisons. Of course gunning down a village is an illegal order. Of course gassing civilians is an illegal order. We have had instances of people doing illegal things, whether under orders or on their own. Those incidents are (generally) dealt with on a case by case basis. There is discussion at high levels as to potentially illegal acts committed at high levels in the runup to the war, and in its execution. That does not make the whole thing illegal (unless so determined in court) and grant every uniformed serviceman or woman the right to play Solomon.

[karlrschneider]

186. I was attempting to address a point claiming that Congress issues 'orders'

to military personnel. I don't think it requires the "wisdom of Solomon" to determine a blatently
illegal order but most grunts aren't really equipped with that sort of intellect...that's not an insult, it's just a fact. And obviously (or it should be if you are familiar with my frequently expressed opinions) I also think there is plenty of criminality to go around when it comes to the very top of
the command/food chain. AFAIC the invasion and occupation of Iraq is very much illegal regardless of
what some court may decide.

[frogcycle]

188. and when you get to write your own laws

then AFAIC counts.

Oh, wait, its bush who does that, and we're pissed about it.

And the point you were addressing was not that congress issues orders to the troops, but that congress approves the war powers (which they did) and the CinC issues.

Disregarding your claim about the intellect of the troops, they are not trained in constitutional law to make judgments about the legality of the war as a whole based on the illegal activities at high places. Their job is to follow legal orders. and there cannot be a "flowdown" that makes ALL orders related to the war inherently illegal as some here seem to think. Orders to do something like go on patrol, find "insurgents", defuse IEDs, train Iraqis, are legal orders.

What we need to do is get the bastards that connived to start this thing, and get it stopped, and get them out of there. We cannot/should not try to lean on them to stage a sit-down strike or some such though. They need to do their jobs, and their jobs first and foremost right now are to stay alive, keep their comrades alive, while (I fervently hope) someone of our elected leadership gets the moxie to right this heinous wrong.

[TomInTib]

88. And just why would you doubt it?

Have you heard anything to the contrary?

[sanskritwarrior]

91. It doesn't pass the smell test

on any level.

There are over 200,000 Army personnel that have NEVER been to Iraq. There is a shortage of pilots in Iraq to keep up with the demand for air missions. A pilot would be an officer, an officer would not be driving a truck in a convoy. A convoy commander maybe, but again as almost all trucks are driven by civilian contractors there is no need to "draft" pilots to drive trucks. Furthermore with over 170,000 Army reservists that have never been called up it would be impossible for the naval reserve to deploy these guys. Money, mission statement, and deployment schedule........those 3 things combined with the above info makes it nigh impossible that this guy was telling you the truth....... Military personnel do things to get sympathy. One of my "joe's" went into town and told a girl he was deploying the next day on a TS mission. He got laid........he did it every weekend for 5 months. I found out about it because one of the young ladies got pregnant and contacted the Battalion HQ to pass the info to him. She said she hoped he was alive and well......We asked why, she told us his schtick and well now he is a little lighter on the collar and he has a baby to take care of......

Your story does not ring true on any level. Again not doubting you, doubting the guy that told you......

[TomInTib]

93. I think you are missing the point..

Seems as if the idiots in charge think that they need better drivers.

I, having been personally involved in all matter of military madness, have no reason at all to question his account.

Maybe you could enlighten me...

[sanskritwarrior]

98. I've been to Iraq twice myself

huckleberry, I having served in Iraq last year have many reasons to question this account as it is in no way shape or form akin to reality on the ground.......So are we going to play who's got the biggest military dick? Or are you going to try and prove something that is an anectdote alone? I don't believe it, not because I think you are lying, but you could be. But I don't think you are. I think you were fed a load of bad goods by some guy goofing on you. Now will we see the Tom whose pride goeth before the fall or not?

[TomInTib]

107. Uh, sanks.....

whatever.

You are how many years old (for we are really old fuckers actually know how things work).

And you are SO or pilot?

Just out of curiosity, what was your gig?

The guy was telling me what he knew.

Do you know anything different?

And just what is the 10th Mountain doing on flat land?

[sanskritwarrior]

114. Here we go

Ageism
Elitism
and Arrogance all in one message......You sure know how to respect your fellow veterans......

My gig is my own business. But no I am not a pilot, I am 33 years old I am a SFC, I am in a combat MOS, I have shot people, and the 10th Mountain was in Iraq, in the flattest part of Iraq actually, do you wish to dispute that?

You are defensive and unable to admit you might be wrong. This thread and the one about the green highlighter give me a portrait of a petulant spoiled child that believes only he is the gatekeeper of military knowledge.

You might have known how thing worked in vietnam, you are truly clueless about Iraq.

And no I'm not giving you my zip code......

[Bunny]

125. .

:spray:

Careful there sanskrit - he once pointed a gun at John Warner. AND, he owns a Sharpie and isn't afraid to use it! Watch your back! :rofl:

[Tin Man]

126. ..

:rofl:

[Bunny]

129. It just never gets old, does it?

:D

[eridani]

175. This guy you talked to is a casual acquaintance

You need to evaluate what he says more carefully than if he were someone you had known for years and never known to lie.

[karlrschneider]

99. Hey, Tom...what Delta flight was it? One of my closest friends

who incidentally I taught to fly in 1975 is a senior Delta Captain...I can find out who this
fellow is and get to the truth with a little inside info. Just the DAL flight # and date will be enough, okay? Thanks. :D

[TomInTib]

101. You gotta be kidding me, karl...

there is just no way that I would do that.

He would be driving a truck within the month.

You should know better than to ask that sort of thing.

No offense, buddy.

It is what it is.

[karlrschneider]

106. Within a month? Well, sorry, 'buddy', I don't buy the story.

You brought up this alleged scenario. I want some confirmation. You won't produce it. I rest my case.
No offense.

edit: Why not just admit you never met the guy before and you actually have no idea if he was making shit up? There's no shame in that. :eyes:

[TomInTib]

109. Whaddya want? A fucking video?

You gotta be kidding me.

I thought that you were better than that.

God Bless George W Bush.


You have seen that, right?

Good God a'mighty... karl..

you disappoint me...


All must be right in the ME...

Glad you like it.

Jesus

[sanskritwarrior]

113. Godwin's law kicking in

Yes I want some proof as your yarn violates just about every rule of dpeloyment.......And yes even in the surge things happen the same way in regards to deployment. Even if they shortchanged ever aspect of deployment, your "story" doesn't hold water.......

Either the guy bullshitted you and your pride refuses for you to admit you may be wrong

or you are lying......

I'm not judging, just laying out the two options.

[sanskritwarrior]

112. So how is he driving a truck within a month

when the course to retrain anyone to go to Iraq is 60 days. Even the units that were hurried up got 60 days. Now i'm starting to smell bullshit from you dude. Stop digging the hole bro.......

How is he driving a truck when there is a 3 week SRP process to get shots, draw meds and gear, make sure you have no medical reaction to the shots, final will, etc....Also there is CRC at Fort bliss that takes a week, then the wait on the Tarmac to get a flight to Kuwait, inprocessing in Kuwait, and then getting in line to catch a flight into Baghdad with every other person trying to get in. There is a mandatory one week acclimatization in Iraq before one is let off the FOB, so by my calculation if you talked to him last week it would be 6 weeks before he "was driving trucks". He would not still be flying a plane if he deploying so soon once the SRP process begins and you start getting the shots your are no longer in the civilian world. Sorry dude, I'm starting to doubt you know........Yes it definitely is what it is........ :D

[frogcycle]

141. more to the point

the assertion that he would be deployed as direct punishment for having "leaked" this insider information to the esteemed OP somehow smacks of self-aggrandizement

[TomInTib]

145. Did you even bother reading what I wrote?

The pilot I was talking to was not going anywhere but to the next airport.

The training program he referred to was two or three weeks just to learn to drive a truck. And he was referring to guys he knows, not himself.

I didn't write anything about deployment, etc.

But I do believe that you are a little too hung up on what appears to be the recent experiences of a common enlisted person.

All of that crap that you mention is what regular troops go thru.

After mustering out in 1972, I was overnighted to Panama in '89.

But I was SO and not a grunt.

[sanskritwarrior]

100. Would it not also be counter productive

to replace expendable KBR guys with trained pilots? Again with fighter and transport pilots already in a shortage, this move would accelerate the shortage of trained pilots. If a war with Iran is on the horizon this makes even less sense. And finally if so many pilots are getting called up why can I not find anything on it? I can find a teacher deploying by himself from the IRR for two years, but not one peep about several dozen pilots getting called up to be truck drivers.......Again doesn't pass the smell test.

[karlrschneider]

97. I got exactly the same impression, even without your current perspective.

Somebody was bullshitting Tom.

[flyarm]

95. ya know...I flew for a major airline as a F/A..and i can tell you this...

during the campaign in 2000 all our pilots were campaigning for little lord pissy pants , and they were all giving money to pissy pants..and they were very active trying to get pissy pants into office..i had many arguments with many pilots that he would screw them..just like Reagan screwed both the air traffic control and all airline crew members salaries..

but what did I know right????????

all the young jock pilots/many AF reserves... were gung ho for little lord pissy pants..big time..!!!

i guess that goes around, comes around thingy is happening now!!

can't say i feel too bad about it..they were warned by many of us old timers,and the flight attendant union.. and they thought they had all the answers!!!!

cest la vie...

fly

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

148. Same here...

I also work for an airline, and a lot of the pilots (mainly those with military backgrounds) were hard-core Shrub supporters. Note, I said "were." Now, not so much. In fact, I haven't heard a positive word about their former hero from any of 'em in a long time. What I have heard is angry ranting about how Shrubbie is busting the unions and ruining the military.

Well, guys, you voted for him. Glad you've seen the light; too bad you didn't seen it sooner.

[sce56]

122. This sounds like BS to me A pilot is an officer an officers don't drive trucks!

Maybe they were reassigned to a truck battalion as a commander but not as a driver that is a enlisted persons job not a Commissioned officers job period.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030602211200/

[sanskritwarrior]

123. Shhhhhh

Tom might hear you......

BTW I agree completely, also since 90% of truck drivers are civilian KBR types, this story is even more laughable.

[Tin Man]

128. It's a secret recipe.

Start with one nugget of plausibility,
add a thread of credence,
sprinkle with dashes of pinache for flavor.

Wisk mixture to froth; serve steaming to hungry clientele.

Voila! Delicious story, yummy!

[Richardo]

130. I'm just wondering one thing.....

What's the zip code for JFK?

[Thothmes]

199. BS

Agree, Suspect these officers will be placed in charge of convoy's or convoy security details. Have never seen a commissioned officer assigned to drive anything in the armed services except ships and aircraft.

On a second point, in the early 70s I know of some trained Navy pilots that had their designators administratively changed to Surface officers and assigned to ships. This was because the war in Vietnam was ending and the number of flight designated officers exceeded the number of flight billets. These officers were told that they could reapply for their flight designators in two years.

[goforit]

127. Sounds like the zaney bush world to me.

[erpowers]

135. Democrats In Congress Need This

This the information that the Democrats in Congress need to bring up. This shows how this war is being missmanaged. Now the military has people who were trained as pilots being used as truck drivers. You can no longer say that things are not out of control in this war.

[Tsiyu]

138. Republicans seem hell-bent on absolutely destroying our military

It sickens me. They are like children abusing toys.

To them, our military are simply inanimate objects they can slam down at will while they play their Lust for Oil Game.

:grr:

[Marrah_G]

139. My brother is a retired Navy Commander

He was forced out of retirement and left for the Middle east lest month for year long deployment leaving behind a great job, a wife and 5 young children. This is happening more then anyone knows.

[Tin Man]

140. But is he driving a truck?

or is he in a position more commensurate with his experience/expertise?

[frogcycle]

143. one possible explanation for the bizarreness of this anecdote

I have heard more than one fighter jock refer to pilots of transport planes as "truck drivers"


edit:
never mind - I just read the "green highlighter" thread

I join the chorus calling bullshit

[Marrah_G]

144. I don't think so

I can't say I've heard Officers being recalled to drive trucks. I don't know exactly what my brother is doing, but I am going to assume it has to do with his field of expertise, which leads me to believe he is probably on a ship off the coast of Iran. I am not sure what the position is called but it has to do with the safe transportation of heavy munitions I believe.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

151. Wait, This Story Doesn't End With You Putting A Shotgun In His Gut Does It?

:rofl:

[Tin Man]

152. Get it straight...

it was his sternum. Jeez.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

153. Yikes! My Bad LOL

[AlCzervik]

160. The devil's in the details you know.

;) :D

[Skittles]

158. Tom how do they peg you as ex-military?

do you sport a crew cut and an M-16? :o

[AlCzervik]

161. thats an excellent question.

My Dad is former military and it would be hard to tell by looking at him.

[Skittles]

171. people don't peg me as ex-military

OK so I am a 49 yr old gal but so what? I AM an Air Force veteran! :D

[AlCzervik]

184. see Skittles you need to start walking around saying "Military types like me"

thats your problem right there, you aren't all full of puffery. You know My Dad, Granpa and all of my uncles served, My BIL the asshat was a full Col. and not once did i ever hear them get puffy over their service.

[karlrschneider]

162. He wears a cap with scrambled eggs on the bill.

I mean actual real scrambled eggs. :D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[greatauntoftriplets]

168. Best response on the thread.

:applause: :spray: :rofl:

[karlrschneider]

170. {blush}

:D :hug:

[MilesColtrane]

159. Maybe they've been told they will be trained to drive convoys.

But consider, If you were about to launch one of the largest air attacks in history (three aircraft carriers worth of planes, plus who knows how many from Iraq and Afghanistan...basically enough for continous 24 bombardment) wouldn't you want some back up pilots available? And, wouldn't you want to keep what these guys were training for a secret?

I don't know exactly how ready the I.R.R. really is.

Can pilots train for two weeks and get right back into the type of plane they used to fly if it's a fighter?
I doubt it. But, maybe these guys will be refueling the fighters and bombers. Maybe they'll be flying C-130's to the Iraq border with supplies.

Magic 8-ball, will Bush attack Iran? =>All Signs Point To Yes

[frogcycle]

169. "Maybe they'll be flying C-130's to the Iraq border with supplies."

Which fighter jocks refer to disparagingly as being a "bus driver", or a "truck driver"

If there is any truth at all to this anecdote (that is, if the OP didn't make up the entire encounter) then it just could be he (1) didn't understand much of what he was told and (2) diminished its credibility through embellishment and self-aggrandizement

[lovuian]

182. Its a underhanded way of killing off our pilots

do you get the feeling that Bush decimation of the greatest army in the world is out to kill out best and brightest

It Sucks

[ScreamingMeemie]

196. Oh come on.

This is getting ridiculous. I'm sorry but I have a really hard time believing this. This is the second time in as many days. I have flown often and have never seen a pilot just hanging around at the gate. I have hung out with my uncle, a retired (35 years) colonel in the USAF, and no one has ever "pegged" him for military to my knowledge. What's up with this?

[Bunny]

197. Don't bother asking, Mrs G. Just enjoy the ride.

And watch out for that Sharpie!

[JerseygirlCT]

198. Outrageous and outrageously stupid. Homeland security, anyone? nt

[DemoTex]

200. I was a pilot in Viet Nam, and I was tasked convoy duty in early 1971.

I was "convoy officer" for a convoy from Nha Trang to Cam Ranh Bay as our unit in Nha Trang stood down and many of us were assigned to NAF Cam Ranh Bay. We took a load down to Cam Ranh (on 15-20 18-wheel flatbeds) and came back empty, all in one day.

As I recall, the first and last vehicles were "Deuces" armed with 20-mm Dusters. I was in the second vehicle, an Army-issue M1A1A jeep bristling with the antennae of command (or, depending on point-of-view, the antennae of ground zero). I had a driver and a highly-seasoned SFC (with convoy experience) in the jeep with me. Suffice to say, the trip down was not without incident.

Since classified equipment was being transported, it was required that an officer with appropriate security clearance be assigned to the convoy. Since every officer in our unit was mission qualified (as pilot or mission specialist) and T/S Code-Word cleared, the job was going to someone with talents best used in other places. My status as aircraft commander, mission instructor, and mission operations officer did not protect me from that shitty duty that day.

[Balbus]

201. Your stories are bullshit.

That is all.