Chavez on news now. Will cut off oil supply to USA for interference in elections.

[L. Coyote]

That is his threat. And, what could the US do?

So, how much oil is in the National Reserve?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. So now will Bushler invade Venezuela?

[Pavulon]

4. No chavez gets to play Napoleon the pig

on our dollar. Really, we run their economy. It is not a terribly diversified system. The are a petro state.

He is full of shit. No one else can refine the sludge they pump.

[NobleCynic]

164. Pipelines to the Pacific and across South America are going up

So that won't be true for much longer. China is able to refine it, Venezuelan exports to China are on the rise.

A brief on Venezuela's pipeline deals:
<http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_printable&report_id=406&language_id=1>

[BornagainDUer]

177. Hmmm, are you in the oil bidness Pavulon?

[LoZoccolo]

2. It looks to me like he's setting up an excuse in case he loses.

He wins: "The people have spoken!"
He loses: "The Americans tampered with the election! I decree that I serve another term!"

[BornagainDUer]

178. So its too much of a stretch for your limited imagination to

believe the US could just possibly be involved in election tampering in Venezuela. :eyes:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

184. So its too much of a stretch for your limited imagination to

imagine that a man who shuts down opposition television stations, media, and bans foreign visitors from speaking ill of his government could make excuses to stay in power?

[Pavulon]

3. No balls..NO BALLS!

he is full of it. No one is equipped to refine the tar they pump. The pusherman can't afford to cut off his only customer.

Oil is literally the reason he will live or die.

"We'll call that, and raise ya.."

[MyNameGoesHere]

86. blather much?

Venezuela

According to the Oil and Gas Journal (OGJ), Venezuela has 77.2 giga barrels of proven conventional oil reserves (80 years of future production), the largest of any country in the Western Hemisphere. In addition it has non-conventional oil deposits similar in size to Canada's - at 1,200 billion barrels approximately equal to the world's reserves of conventional oil. About 267 billion barrels of this may be producible at current prices using current technology. <5> Venezuela's Orinoco tar sands are less viscous than Canada's Athabasca oil sands – meaning they can be produced by more conventional means, but are buried deeper – meaning they cannot be extracted by surface mining. In an attempt to have these extra heavy oil reserves recognized by the international community, Venezuela has moved to add them to its conventional reserves to give nearly 350 billion barrels of total oil reserves. This would give it the largest oil reserves in the world, even ahead of Saudi Arabia. In October 2007 the Venezuelan government said its proven oil reserves have risen to 100 billion barrels. The energy and oil ministry said it has certified 12.4 billion additional barrels of proven reserves in the country's Faja del Orinoco region

[Pavulon]

87. Sorry. There is no refinery

currently in operation refining Venezuelan oil in china. If he has to transport it to non-existent refineries in china it makes delivery cost soar.

A refinery set up to refine saudi crude can not refine Venezuelan exported oil.

Like I said, he does not have the balls to carry through, and if he does he is only hurting his monolithic economy.

[MyNameGoesHere]

88. You honestly think VZ

could not find a willing partner to refine? Sure go all in. I like when gamblers get wiped out. Much like bush went all in in Iraq. That worked out well.

[Pavulon]

94. Do you know how long it takes

to build a refinery capable of producing million bbl a day capacity? They could find one but the entry cost is hundreds of millions of dollars. China is not stupid, they are well aware of the cost of transporting Venezuelan oil (around the cape, since the tankers are not panamax compliant), refining it, and selling it. That is a billion dollar sentence.

I can tell you for sure, Venezuela, unlike china, does not have a diversified economy. They do not make anything consumed in quantity by a large market other than oil.

Any disruption to the oil screws with their money. And since all oil sales take place in dollars they are again hurt if they damage the us market. They will be pain in less valuable currency. Chavez lives and dies with the value of the oil he sells.

I will be happy to call the bluff of loud moron in a red shirt.

[SyntaxError]

110. Wight Ring talking points much?

[Pavulon]

114. trade nymex much..

google and learn.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

187. what talking points? hes dead on?

Could China build a refinery to take VE oil? sure but it will be a long time for it to be worth the expense to them. Not to mention that for the time being oil is fungible! so who cares where he sends it the world price per barrel that OPEC sets will be the same if we buy it from VE, or SA.

We are his biggest consumer but our biggest suppliers in order are Canada, SA, and Mexico. Venezuela accounts for only about 10% of our imports. Meanwhile we account for 60% of their exports whos going to get hurt more by this move?

There is one nation with the clout to even build a refinery for VE oil and if they broke ground today it would take at least 5-10 years for them to be up to speed.

What happens if Huge hurts the oil economy of VE? how will he pay for the programs he wants to put into place?

[Bucky]

190. Careful. "RW Talking Points" is not *actually* a synonym for "facts I don't like"

[MyNameGoesHere]

176. looks like the loud mouth conceded to the reform vote of the people.

Well he is a loud mouth but maybe he will be a principled loud mouth.

[LanternWaste]

124. It appears they have some reinery capabilities...

It appears they have some reinery capabilities...

Also, I think even a temprary moratorium on VZ oil to the U.S. would hurt us more than them...




Venezuela refinery to close temporarily in September for maintenance, specialist says
Venezuela’s state oil company Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. will temporarily shut one unit at its Amuay refinery for planned maintenance work in September, a specialist involved in maintenance said.


The crude distillation unit, which refines some 70,000 barrels a day, will be shut down for about one month, said the specialist, who spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak publicly.
The company says it always makes contingency plans so that maintenance will not affect supply commitments.
http://www.thedailyjournalonline.com/article.asp?CategoryId=10717&ArticleId=233649



Located on the Paraguana Peninsula in northwest Venezuela, the Amuay refinery is one of the world’s largest and is capable of processing up to 630,000 barrels per day of crude oil. Venezuela supplies about 13 percent of the daily oil and oil products imported into the United State, much of which is gasoline.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=16318

PDVSA not only extracted crude oil, but also refined and distributed a wide variety of petroleum products. In 1988 six active refineries in Venezuela boasted an installed refining capacity of approximately 1.2 million barrels of oil a day. These refineries produced a full range of oil products and specialty fuels, making Venezuela an international leader in petroleum refining. PDVSA increased the percentage of locally refined crude from 35 percent to 58 percent between 1979 and 1988.
http://www.country-studies.com/venezuela/energy.html

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

188. They sell 60% of their oil to us

We only buy 10% of ours from them... An oil fihgt would sure hurt us but do far more damage to them..

[Leopolds Ghost]

127. When you say Venezuela's tar sand is "not viable", you are advocating strip mining.

"Venezuela's Orinoco tar sands are less viscous than Canada's Athabasca
oil sands – meaning they can be produced by more conventional means, but
are buried deeper – meaning they cannot be extracted by surface mining."

Note the US media insistence on strip mining the Arctic. Surface mining
(strip mining) is consistently rated as a socially and economically
preferable behavior to "old fashioned" deep mining where poor miners get
hurt, etc.

A sand mine removes the entire surface of the earth for an area the size
of large cities, leaving behind desert.

A Bush crony wanted to mine a large natural dune east of the Okeefenokee
Swamp for sand and quartz. It would have wiped out a hill 10 miles long
by 2 miles wide, replacing it with a desert pit and permanently draining
the Okeefenokee Swamp.

When you say Venezuela's tar sand is "not viable", you are advocating
strip mining on a scale never seen before -- literally raping the Artic
and leaving behind a desert.

[Xenotime]

5. the US had better not fuck with chavez...

We can't afford it.

[L. Coyote]

7. Too late. Caught red-handed and clueless. Twice now. Congrats Mr. Bush.

You just screwed up again (assuming you are not just delegating everything).

[lynnertic]

174. I missed something. who got caught red-handed twice?

[L. Coyote]

175. View this film.

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED = FILM on the Failed Overthrow of Hugo Chavez
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2386960

That was the first time the US was "caught" interfering in Venezuela's governance, in the overthrow of democracy and installation of a dictator.

The second time is the current "Operation Pliers" leak.

You have to wonder how many covert ops are underway and not yet revealed, if ever!!
How much US taxpayer money is flowing to the opposition, for example??

[Pavulon]

9. Reversed it

Venezuela has a non diversified economy based on a fungible commodity. To top that the shit they pump is not definable by any other state. We are the only consumer of his product set up to refine it. No one else is set to consume that schwag.

If he cuts it off, the price goes up. All the opec nations bump production under the table, like they always do in a price spike. They get richer. We pay a dollar more a gallon. We bitch, but still go to work.

Meanwhile chavez's animal farm is in disarray because he does not have cash (dollars) coming in for the ONLY thing of value exported from his country.

[NickB79]

96. You're assuming OPEC countries can raise production

We've had a price spike, and they have yet to raise production. Many oil industry experts feel that OPEC nations are pumping at or near capacity (despite their continued empty promises to increase production), and have few ways to significantly raise oil output rapidly.

I would be concerned that gas would go up quite a bit more than a dollar a gallon. Our economy, and his, would both be seriously damaged. I agree with you that, in the end, Venezuela would come out in much worse shape than the US, but I don't think it would be as simple as bitching and going to work. Many jobs will be lost, our economy will suffer losses in the tens of billions of dollars, and it will take years to recover.

Venezuela may descend into civil war, and Chavez sent into exile, imprisoned or killed. The US, though, may slip into recession as high fuel prices, high food prices, and the continuing housing collapse force millions of families into foreclosure.

No one wins in a fight like this.

[MadHound]

100. I suggest that you go do some research

Venezuela has six refineries of their own with which they can handle their own oil. In addition, there are other refineries in neighboring countries that can handle their crude, Nicuraugau is but one example. There are also refineries in Europe that can handle their heavy oil, most notably an ICGC plant in Italy. Oh, and of course there is always China, who is ramping up their use of Venezuela oil, having just signed a deal to increase oil consumption from that country to 500,000 bbl/day in 2009 and shoot for 1 million bbls or more shortly thereafter.

Meanwhile, you are counting on other OPEC nations to bump up their production, but that may be a pipe dream at this point. Saudi Arabia is pretty much tapped out and are struggling to keep up current production rates much less increase them, Iraq is in massive disarray, Iran, yeah, right, Nigeria, same as Iraq almost, Kuwait, UAE, etc, much the same Saudi Arabia.

If Venezuela stops oil to the US, we will be screwed. You casually mention that gas will go up a dollar a gallon and people will keep driving. What's behind that glib shallow statement is the fact that there are people out there right now who can't afford gas, how these current gas prices are really eating away at our economy and are causing across the board inflation. Jack the price up another dollar a gallon, and we'll be in some seriously deep shit, and the trouble is, it wouldn't stop at just a dollar a gallon, it will jack up at least two, if not more. Can you afford five dollars a gallon? Can you afford the inflation that will cause? Nice if you can, but for most of the country, people will be hit hard, and our economy will go down the tubes.

Meanwhile, Chavez will merrily sell his oil elsewhere on the world market, for a good price, in a currency like the Euro or Yuan that actually is increasing in value.

Your blithe description of this scenario comes across more as whistling pass the graveyard rather than sound economic and political analysis. Like I said, you need to do some more research.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

189. only 10%

Venezuela only accounts for 10% of US oil, we account for 60% of their exports, They export the rest to the nations you mentioned, the price of oil is fungible among OPEC members...

All of these things mean that were Venezuela to try to 'embargo' us out of 10% of our oil they would be hurt *way* more than the US. For every barrel he sells to nation A (say Panama) that nation will buy a barrel less from Nation B (say Mexico) who will then be more than happy to turn around and sell it to the US for the exact same price Venezuela would have sold it at.

With oil at the price its going for right now soon Canada will begin to export even more oil and we are their biggest customer. Geographically and politically I would much rather import from Canada than anyone else.

"and the trouble is, it wouldn't stop at just a dollar a gallon, it will jack up at least two, if not more."

I think you overestimate the importance of oil from VE on the US economy. Where VE to sell us no more oil as of tomorrow the world supply (and hence the price) would be the exact same per barrel. VE does not have the capacity to refine their own oil at the rate the US does so they would suffer from lower exports until they make the massive investment to augment their own ability to process their rather low quality oil. so any bump felt by the US would be felt by *everyone in the world the same way* and 10 times worse in VE than NY

"Your blithe description of this scenario comes across more as whistling pass the graveyard rather than sound economic and political analysis."

Anyone who ignores the means by which oil is priced on the world market calling someone else's description unsound has set a good bar for hubris...

[ruggerson]

16. I say fuck with him

n/t

[Yupster]

43. Oil is fungible

If we don't buy thir's, then someone else does and we buy someone else's. The same amount of oil gets bought and sold either way. Maybe the tankers have to take longer routes to get there.

[sharp_stick]

6. I'm getting mighty sick of that little banana republic leader

Christ, the whining from him is getting to be as bad as the shit spewed by faux news.

[L. Coyote]

12. Venezuela is a democracy. US failed trying to turn it into a banana republic

when they overthrew Chavez, temporarily.

Thankfully, the People rose up to defend their democracy and overthrow the banana republic dictator.

Watch the film, "The Revolution Wiil Not Be Televised"
1 hr 15 min - Apr 23, 2006
Ratings 4.5 stars (1108 ratings)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[marmar]

13. Sometimes it's better to be concerned about the banana republic leader in your own backyard.....

:think: Glass houses, stones et all

[L. Coyote]

17. Ditto that. Would Bush interfere in a democratic nation's election? D'oh!! FL 2000.

[Cha]

21. Quit watching fauxnoise

and investigate Chavez and maybe you'll learn something about him that the m$$$$m isn't telling you.

[L. Coyote]

23. I worked in a Latin American revolution for years. Best take him seriously.

Anyone who does not have experience in Latin America or lacks knowledge of their conquest history and the liberation movements ending colonialism and slavery lacks the context to understand Chavez and the politics of the day in Venezuela. Chavez sees himself as a modern Bolivar or Choquehuanca. He is not alone in that view. He is a progressive democrat, and would fit in on DU better than anywhere else!!

The People of South America see the US as a gluttonous imperialist nation that kills Presidents of democracies because those are the facts. In my jungle village in the Amazon basin, uniformed US Army Rangers took local leftists on plane rides and threw them out over the jungle. Those memories of the People are the context of today's politics. The overthrow of Allende, decades of Somoza, Arbenz and the horrors of Guatemala's long conflict with indigenous people, the war in El Salvador, all bought and paid for by the USA are the context the US is seen in. That is the USA that Chavez opposes. That is the USA that South American nations seek liberation from, just as we do.

[Cha]

24. That's the sense

that I get without having your experience..thank you, L Coyote.

Incredible that on a Democratic Board there are so many echoing the bushitistas on Chavez. I hope this isn't an indication that the m$$$$m and the hatefest limpballs have suceeded in brainwashing the masses.

[L. Coyote]

28. It is syptomatic of a self-centered, insular society, and of how they pull off such abuse

and exploitation of "other" people. We lack a sense that we are all one people, one world.

The very people who would steal elections are the ones who start wars to steal resources.
Keeping the people of your own nation ignorant of the larger world and the views and experience of other nations enables their colonialist undertakings in our name.

[Cha]

90. I have a quote for you that

I got from a DUer's "comment"..

""Human history can be viewed as a slowly
dawning awareness that we are members of
a larger group. Initially our loyalties
were to ourselves and our immediate
family, next, to bands of wandering
hunter-gatherers, then to tribes, small
settlements, city-states, nations. We
have broadened the circle of those we
love. We have now organized what are
modestly described as super-powers,
which include groups of people from
divergent ethnic and cultural
backgrounds working in some sense
together — surely a humanizing and
character building experience. If we are
to survive, our loyalties must be
broadened further, to include the whole
human community, the entire planet
Earth. Many of those who run the nations
will find this idea unpleasant. They
will fear the loss of power. We will
hear much about treason and disloyalty.
Rich nation-states will have to share
their wealth with poor ones. But the
choice, as H. G. Wells once said in a
different context, is clearly the
universe or nothing."

--Carl Sagan

We need Leaders who aren't so greedy and into their expanding money vault.

That's exactly what they did..bomb Iraq to "steal resources" and the dlc is right there with them.

[arikara]

140. There are just the same few

shills blathering the same r/w talking points over and over. I suspect most of the Chavez supporters like myself are bored and disgusted with them and tend not to even post anymore. Probably not a good idea because it makes it appear that there are more of them than there really are.

[PassingFair]

144. There are some that apparently feel that OUR oil is in their under their soil.

Reminds me of other countries and other mind-sets.

Disturbing.

[jwirr]

34. I think we should listen to you. For one thing I am old enough to remember

the way it used to be - almost all elections where by coup using violence. This young democracy is finding its way through a new form of government. Secondly, we need to remember that *ss and his oil buddies want to end the reign of Chavez not because he is evil but because he nationalized the oil industry thus cutting them out of some of the profit. I may be stupid but I trust Chavez more than I trust *ss.

[hardtravelin]

54. Hmmm...

Could you supply a date and place this supposedly happened (Rangers throwing people out of planes)?

[L. Coyote]

91. In the Amazon Basin in Peru, in a village with an airstrip, before I lived there in the early 70s.

This is the memory of the village, not my first-hand experience. I lived there long enough to trust their first-hand history. Remote as this place is (was), without newspapers, roads in and out, etc., the local Indians had no problem lecturing me about the U.S. War on Vietnam. Radio was their connection to the outside world.

This is just one example of what the people remember. I have more tales like this from other areas. In Chile, a potato farmer is walking to his field through the fog at first hint of daylight and encounters soldiers with people lined up on the edge of a bridge. They machine gun them over the bridge edge into the river, to wash out to the ocean. The farmer turns back into the fog, unnoticed, and tells me the story as we walk across the bridge, decades later. His black, gnarled hands attest to decades of working soil, his simply told story is too authentic to doubt. Has he ever mentioned this to anyone before, silenced by fear of retaliation, I wondered. A stranger, a gringo walking down the highway, an opportunity to pass on a memory, to unburden a soul?

The disappeared in Latin America number in the tens to hundreds of thousands, and they were not rightists!
The war was on the left and progressive social movements seeking social change.

[hardtravelin]

104. Still doubt it was US Rangers

I would like to know how the people of a village identified them as members of that unit. I served in a Ranger unit, and after it was reformed in 1974 (post Vietnam), the first action seen was at Desert One, in support of the failed hostage rescue. I never even heard barracks rumors about that kind of operation.

I do not challenge the fact that the right-wing government of Chile "disappeared" thousands of innocent civilians. I spent some time in Central America, and it was my experiences there (my observation of the hardships our influence had visited upon the poor in those countries) that opened my eyes.

American operatives? CIA? Maybe. US Army Rangers (1st or 2nd Bn, only at that time frame) highly unlikely.

[flyarm]

130. read "Globalization" by Greg Palast ..and read about Negroponte...

just start there!!

fly

[raccoon]

185. Help me out here, I'm not finding anything by that title by Palast,

Armed Madhouse (2006)
Democracy and Regulation (2003) (Co-Authors: Theo MacGregor and Jerrold Oppenheim)
The Best Democracy Money Can Buy (2002)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Palast#Books

Is it one of the above you're referring to?

[Kurovski]

65. Have you ever posted an OP in GD of your experiences?

That would be helpful, enlightening and educating.

[raccoon]

186. I second that! nt

[hack89]

68. I call BS on the Rangers

unless you have some real evidence.

[EFerrari]

115. You don't even want to know what our military has done in Latin America. n/t

[L. Coyote]

136. There is a photo of US Marines in Nicaragua proudly holding a freshly beheaded skull

How do you undo those images in the minds of the victim cultures?

[hack89]

158. I would love to know what you can prove. nt

[L. Coyote]

163. Wouldn't you prefer to know what they have actually done?

The nature of black operations is invisibility and inability to attribute the action to the actors.
Since the actions are often completely illegal, the object is to undertake actions that can never
be proven to connect to the actors. There has to be complete or plausible deniability of the crime.

What do you suppose the global war on terror is in fact?
Given past history and what we do know I have serious concerns that it is essentially a black op!
Is it one huge, illegal, world-wide black op to eliminate political opposition to US interventionism??

[hack89]

168. Perfect set up

you can believe what you want yet because of the "The nature of black operations is invisibility and inability to attribute the action to the actors." you are absolved of any responsibility to actually prove anything.

[Pavulon]

75. I WORK in latin America NOW

take brazil seriously. This guy is an ass. Even if he goes tinhorn he will still take our money. Still has to buy products by the millions from us.

However if he begins to seize assets it will change how business is done.

[Judi Lynn]

102. Brazil, Argentina, Chile all were controlled by US-supported military governments who overthrew

previous Presidents, tortured and killed prisoners, and threw them out of airplanes and helicopters.

Anyone who has bothered to read even a page concerning the Dirty Wars in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's in Latin America learned that long ago.

I most surely believe you. I've heard people who were there discuss it years ago, and it sickened me back then. Only ones I've ever heard of who could get that low have been hate-filled, racist right-wingers.

Thanks for your comments. Very worthwhile.

[Pavulon]

103. Over Oil?

Who else was pulling strings in the region?

You are leaving out a bit of the puzzle.

[Judi Lynn]

105. And you're just flapping around trying to get a kick in, aren't you?

All it takes is a quick look at the post I was addressing to see your own comment to me makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Stay away from the booze if you're going to post a lot.

[Pavulon]

107. It is 1pm

a bit early. You left out the other players in Latin America. Give you a hint, Angola..

Now who else would have an interest in manipulating power in our back yard between 1946 and 1990's??

[flyarm]

133. i have pointed out to you ..do some research will you..read about "Globalization" by Greg Palast

read about Argentina and the oil grab by jebbie and Enron and the destruction of the middle class of Argentina..it was the practice field for the * junta..for what has been done to us by the neo cons..read it and come back here and tell us it is all bullshit..

read about Perez of Venezuela and his ties to Standard oil and all our other oil companies and look what was done to the poor in Venezuela under our puppet Perez

read the Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins

look what we did in Haiti
our country's corporations want cheep labor in South America and we want their oil..

and we want it for nothing..or next to nothing..our corporations have thrived on it for many many decades.

fly

edit to add:

http://www.democracynow.org/2005/5/17/confessions_of_an_economic_hit_man

May 17, 2005


Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions
We play an interview with, John Perkins–author of “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”–who says he says he helped the U.S. cheat poor countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars by lending them more money than they could possibly repay and then taking over their economies.

The protests this week in Bolivia come as Latin America is seeing significant success among popular progressive movements. From Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, Lula da Silva of Brazil to the changes of government in Uruguay and now Ecuador, there is a continent-wide trend that has Washington concerned. The US has long exploited countries throughout Central and Latin America for the natural resources, labor and land. Over the decades, this exploitation has been backed up by force and through devastating policies dictated to puppet regimes. Our next guest says he helped the U.S. cheat poor countries in Latin America and around the globe out of trillions of dollars by lending them more money than they could possibly repay and then taking over their economies. From 1971 to 1981, John Perkins worked for the international consulting firm of Chas T. Main. He described himself as an “economic hit man.” He"s written a memoir called Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. When he joined us in our fire house studio, we asked him to begin with how he came to be recruited first by the National Security Agency–far larger than the C.I.A.–and then this so-called international consulting firm of Chas T. Main.

John Perkins, author of “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.”

[PassingFair]

146. He doesn't care. It's "our backyard" to him.

It's OUR oil.
It's OUR BACKYARD!!!!!

His livelihood obviously depends on exploiting
the resources of other nations.

That makes Chavez an enemy of his wallet.

[flyarm]

155. unfortunately there are many americans who are equally ignorant and

have severely broken moral compasses.

fly

[Pavulon]

156. So the entire cold war era

activity in LA was over oil? Really.

[Chulanowa]

165. Nooo, it was to spread clean, wholesome democracy

...By training thugs in American-funded and based training camps to massacre civilians and dissidents and vaguely-defined "leftists"

Admirable, don't you think?

[PassingFair]

169. Whatever....he's got his job to think about....

:eyes:

[Hydra]

150. The problem is that what you mention is still the US of today

But you already know that :evilgrin:

[KaptBunnyPants]

25. I sure hope you're being paid to spread disinformation.

It would be sad to think that you're giving it away for free.

[killbotfactory]

62. How dare he object to our illegal efforts to overthrow him

The nerve of that asshole.

[fascisthunter]

85. You Mean Bush?

or the anti-Chavez whiners here who are upset Chavez is not a US puppet?

[acmavm]

109. Who? bush**?

[indepat]

128. I'm getting sick of big banana republics

[AlCzervik]

8. haven't we been here before?

[Clovis Sangrail]

10. I'm not sure how that would work.

I'm actually not sure exactly how the international oil market works or if he's a part of it.... maybe somebody can explain.

As I see it, if his oil is being traded on the international market, there's nothing to stop somebody he sells it to from selling it to the US.

[Pavulon]

11. Bingo, actually worse for Napoleon

no other nation is set to refine his tar. So either we buy it or no one does.

[Robbien]

15. He directly supplies the oil to the US

Yes it is bought through an international bourse, but the physical oil is put on tankers in Venezuela and shipped to the US.

The other available cheap suppliers to the US are already at capacity (Mexico & Canada), so the US would have to get the shortage from someplace more expensive such as Africa or the ME.

[ben_meyers]

19. So if he doesn't sell to us

who would buy his oil? Wouldn't his cutting us off free up other supplies? I know he's a genius but I wonder how that works.

It doesn't.

[Robbien]

22. Both China and Russia have been after him to deliver oil to them

In fact he already has deals to deliver all excess production to them and to several Latin American countries. If Venezuela was not locked into the contract with the US, there would be plenty of buyers.

[Clovis Sangrail]

30. but if we are currently his main buyer

and he stops selling to us, won't that mean that there is now an additional X amount of oil on the market (his).. and drive prices *down?
I don't mean overall, but in a measure equal to the amount of oil that is now added to the market.. offset against new rise in demand from the US.. basically turning out to be a wash. Maybe a slight increase in $/barrel overall.
(as I said, I really don't fully understand how the oil markets work)

I guess I don't understand it enough to see this as a giant threat.

I think a much bigger threat, (Citgo is wholy owned by Venezuela, right?) , would be to fire all the Citgo employees and shutter all the stations... all at once. No notice.

It would be more expensive to him, sure, but I think that might actually ding the US pretty good.
Unemployment, increased gas prices, etc. etc.

[Robbien]

32. Oil is bought on the world market through the bourse

There is still the same number of buyers and sellers and the same amount of available oil. So if Venezuela pulls out of the US deal, there will be some jockeying around and usually jockeying around means higher prices all around.

Citgo is no longer wholly owned by Venezuela, they have sold much of their interests in the US.

[Pavulon]

76. None of those nations can refine the tar

that they pump. Do you know how much it costs to set up a refinery. I have petroleum companies as clients. They spend millions on a specific type of equipment just to support their existing refinery operations.

Just on certain types of tooling.

China and India can not just build a functioning refinery in a year.

Long story short, he is bullshitting.

[L. Coyote]

18. Venezuela owns gas stations all over the USA! The give price breaks to poor

homeowners buying heating fuel. They are one of the largest oil suppliers to the US economy.

[ben_meyers]

20. So Hugo will shut down Citgo's 14000 gas stations

cutting himself off from that revenue stream? Sounds like a shot in his own foot to me. But go for it I guess.

[KaptBunnyPants]

26. Oil is a seller's market.

Venezuela won't be losing anything. We are the one's up shit creek if this happens.

[Paulie]

31. He's selling off Citgo

Been in process for years. Retail sales is a drain on revenue, as the other major oil companies realize and are now selling off their retail arms too.

[ben_meyers]

35. Citgo has been for sale since 1992 and they really made

a big push again in 2005. The company is far from a money loser and still pays large dividends. The biggest problem is finding a buyer for their Corpus Christi, TX refinery, which as has been mentioned before, is one of the few that can handle the type of crude oil from Venezuela.

That being said, Venezuela has been a member of OPEC since 1949 and its oil production doesn't exist in a vacuum. Oil is a world wide commodity, if Hugo cuts us off, other supplies will be freed up from other producers.

[jwirr]

36. Unless of course you are one of the poor who he helps with cheaper

oil during the winter.

[Pavulon]

78. Not this year! No political gain in it.(nt)

[Judi Lynn]

89. Once again, you are yammering away, as if you knew what you're talking about,

hoping no one takes the time to check.

I checked. Got a hit the first moment I went looking to see what I could find about Venezuela providing heating oil here in 2007, 2008:

Correction: October 25, 2007


An article on Sunday about environmental and economic development projects in the South Bronx financed by Citgo Petroleum, the American subsidiary of Venezuela’s state-owned oil company, gave an incorrect amount in some editions for discounted heating oil delivered to Americans last winter, and the amount it expects to deliver this winter. It delivered 100 million gallons, not 100,000, last winter, and plans to deliver 110 million gallons, not 110,000, this winter.
(snip)

Also, in the same article:

Citgo started its outreach in 2005 with a 40 percent discount on heating oil for poor households and expanded it in August to finance social and economic development. The company has committed to donating $3.6 million over the next three years to nine Bronx initiatives that would use the money to create jobs, foster community empowerment and clean up the urban environment.

The program has made Mr. Chávez the talk of the South Bronx.

“He came in here and took over — like a Spanish Napoleon!” Lucy Martinez said.

Ms. Martinez, 57, said Mr. Chávez has helped the needy residents she meets while working the front desk at Nos Quedamos, a nonprofit community development corporation. But she knows, too, that his philanthropy has chafed some American politicians.

Patrice White-McGleese, 37, an employment counselor who saved $160 to $300 a month during the past two winters through the discounted oil program, said she knows why Mr. Chávez’s actions have rankled.

“It’s a sore point because it took what most people would consider a third world nation to help the U.S.,” she said. “Which is kind of a slap in the face because we’re supposed to be one of the superpowers; why can’t we help our own?”
(snip/...)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/nyregion/21citgo.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[Pavulon]

106. "Plan to"

I plan to loose 20 lbs and run 5 miles a day. Let me know when he ACTUALLY makes delivery. Haven;t heard one story about this year. And people are buying heating oil now...

It is a great bit of PR. The other side of the mouth is calling for $100 dollar a bbl oil. I am sure the poor will benefit from that.

[flyarm]

153. hmm..well Chavez "has delivered" ..why would he re-neg now unless provoked by little lord pissy pant...

and his band of sovereign nation leader killers.

Personally ..i believe chavez more than pissy pants..pissy pants has already cut the funding of money needed by the poor to heat their homes this winter!

fly

[Pavulon]

159. No news yet, its cold and people

are still poor.. Guess he is waiting for the right pr moment?

[flyarm]

162. probably..pissy pants is too stupid to worry about fucking the poor and his PR!!

or he just doesn't give a rats ass..take your pick!!

fly

[jwirr]

170. His "plan to" has been real plans for many years now. Although I

and my family did not qualify for the help last year many of my neighbors did.

[donheld]

154. Are you talking about heating oil?

Is that the same oil Citgo sells?

[Pavulon]

161. Yep, at $3 + a gallon

Chaves is convinced the price is to low. Maybe higher oil prices help the poor.

[jwirr]

171. Higher prices help the poor in his country. Something that Standard

Oil neglected to do when they owned it.

[Whisp]

14. Bush does believe in the Ownership society thingie.

so, Venezuela owns their own resources. (what selfish bastards!)
what's all the crying about?

[KaptBunnyPants]

27. You have the concept wrong.

The aristocratic class owns everything. A populist president who is not represented by the wealthy has no right to deny them their oil.

[L. Coyote]

29. And the NeoCon political plan is to separate the resources from governments.

To put that more bluntly, to steal the wealth of the People of the nations that have control of the rights of their mineral wealth. Iraq is the case of the day. There are other secret efforts underway too, and they just got caught on this one!

The reason there are black ops, that is secret operations and secret operatives, is because what they do is illegal and anti-democratic. It is activity that cannot bear the light of day!

[madokie]

41. thats putting it about as plain as it can be put

illegal and anti-democratic. If only people would wake up to what is being done in their names throughout the world they would be appalled.

[Whisp]

38. capitalism hey, socialism bust.

and i used to think Communism was the biggest enemy.
good cripes we are all trained to be stupid against our own interests.

[L. Coyote]

42. Check the tax code. Corporate socialism passes for free enterprise in the USA today.

Capitalism and communism in this context is just jingoistic jargon to propagate opposition to the national interests of a democratic nation.

[Strelnikov_]

33. Time to load the Imperial Sardaukar onto the Heighliners

The spice must flow!

[Solar_Power]

37. Absolute power corrupts absolutely

[L. Coyote]

39. And, this comment is relevant here because....?? Oh yeah, Bush and the CIA.

It isn't relevant to the referendum that will grant social security to more Venezuelans, or the reorganization of community government, or the other democratic reforms.

[Bolo Boffin]

40. That would throw Venezuela into a state of emergency.

And all these new powers he's going to get in the election come into play when he declares a state of emergency.

Clever dictator.

[L. Coyote]

44. Chavez is the elected President of a democratic nation. You sound like Reagan

and his irrational fear of the "Sandinista terrorist" invaders approaching the Texas border (any day now :rofl:). Dictator? NOT!

Why does this issue bring out the bullshit to such a degree? Venezuela can survive without oil exports to the USA. They grow their own food, etc.

Please enumerate what powers he's going to get in the election. Have you read the referendum?

[EFerrari]

45. It's amazing how many posters sound just like St. Ronnie

when it comes to Latin America. And, what happened to all those Founding Fathers in Nicaragua? lol

[L. Coyote]

46. Ronnie was part of a long tradition = USA in Latin America:

Invading Nicaragua is old hat!
Ronnie was just the last idiot to try it, and the only one who failed completely.
William Walker did better (for a while), and he was a derelict freebooter.

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/backgrd/usa.htm

1854 - The US navy bombards and destroys the Nicaraguan
port town of San Juan del Norte. The attack occurred after US millionaire
Cornelius Vanderbilt sailed his yacht into the port and an official
attempted to levy charges on his boat.

1855 - William Walker ... invades Nicaragua and proclaims himself President.
During his two year rule, Walker also invaded neighbouring El Salvador
and Honduras (proclaiming himself head of state in each of these countries
also). Walker restored slavery in areas under his occupation.

1912 - U.S. marines invade Nicaragua, beginning
an occupation that was to last almost continuously until 1933. In the
same year, President Taft declares: "The day is not far distant
when three Stars & Stripes at three equidistant points will mark
our territory: one at the North Pole, another at the Panama Canal and
the third at the South Pole. The whole hemisphere will be ours in fact
as, by virtue of our superiority of race, it already is ours morally."

[EFerrari]

47. It was so bad, the powers in El Salvador had the Matanza

mostly to KEEP the Marines off shore.

Edit: Sorry, that was 1932.

[Whisp]

55. that Nicaragua that was going to invade the US? that one?

lol. and when they couldn't get help from the 'westerners' they had to go to Russia for aid, TO DEFEND THEMSELVES... then they were bona fide commies.
all should know that the threat of Nicaragua was Socialism, that vile ugly virus of a healthy society in charge of their own wealth - the mega capitalists distain that. The Evil Empire does not approve.

[EFerrari]

60. Ronald Reaguns compared the thugs he hired to fight democracy

to our founders. You rarely get mendacity so purely.

[L. Coyote]

72. Hence, the moniker "Alice in Ronderland" for Bush's up-is-down reality

Empires create their own reality, at the expense of whoever.

Reagan's pronouncement epitomizes propaganda at its finest--just have your holy prophet boldly acclaim
the opposite of the truth with impunity, and the faithful never get out of the rabbit hole.

From: "Gonzolies Adventures in Ronderland" or "Up is Down and Down is Up"
Aug-28-07 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1681812

"Gonzolies" is the English neologism describing the last man standing after a lying match.

"Gonzolies Adventures in Ronderland" is a tale with twisted logic epitomizing the genre of nonsense literature. Gonzolies is just one of the characters in the fairy tale of current American politics. The Republican Party has fallen down a rabbit-hole into an hallucinatory realm populated by grotesque misstatements from wild, anthropomorphic creatures like Talking Point Cards, a rabbit-hole where beliefs transcend reality.

Gonzolies, a bored attorney looking for an adventure, starts a journey at Folly Bridge near Waco, Texas, and ends up years later in the village of Gods Town. Gonzolies takes interest in a passing, ghostly super hero, a white knight muttering "Oh dear! Oh God! The Commies are coming!" He follows the knight down a deficit hole, and finds himself in a dreamlike world of magical beliefs where Gonzolies and R, the now aging super hero, grow to gigantic size.

Eventually Gonzolies joins Mad-Hater and his boss, March-to-War at a never-ending tea party of deficit spending, they go to a distant seashore and meet Mock Truth, and finally attend the Trial of "Critical Reason," the sole non-grotesque character in their adventure. Critical Reason has been accused of "disturbing truths." While Gonzolies prosecutes Critical Reason, he shrinks to a fraction of his inflated height, and the dream ends. Gonzolies wakes up at the picnic in Crawford, Texas.

Nonetheless, Gonzolies soon realizes that in Crawford up is still down and down is still up, and his new super hero, W, is enraptured by his own hallucinatory realm populated by wild, grotesque misstatements and talking points. Just when diminitive Gonzolies realizes the dream has not actually ended, he awakens again, and he realizes he was still at a lying contest and he was not the last man standing.

This time he has awakened in American politics, on the far side of Folly Bridge in Gods Town, where up is still down and down is up, and the lying contest goes on as W praises Gonzolies. Gonzolies wonders, "Am I still dreaming. How can I know if up is down and down is up?" He also wonders, "Am I still standing? Am I really Gonzolies, or is all this still just a dream in Ronderland?"

[Bolo Boffin]

49. Compare me to Reagan again and talk to the moderators. Capiche?

Enumerated powers as requested:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/11/29/venezu17447.htm

* the elimination of a barrier on Chavez to suspend due process during a state of emergency

* the loss of the following rights under a state of emergency
** the presumption of innocence
** the right to be tried by an independent and impartial tribunal
** the right against self-incrimination
** the right not to be convicted for a non-existent crime
** the right against double jeopardy
** possible suspension of the rights of a defendant to know the charges and have access to the evidence against him.

* the elimination of time limits to a state of emergency

* the power to suspend the right of citizens to information

The referendum also ushers in new anti-discriminatory laws, but allows Chavez to suspend them... guess when?

[EFerrari]

51. Oh, for pete's sake. Little different from our own law.

But I guess when a little brown man does it, that's bad. It's pretty hilarious watching people freak out as Chavez assumes the same powers our own government enjoys.

"Similar laws outlining the imposition of a state of exception or a state of emergency are in place in many of the world's prominent democracies, including Australia, Canada, France, Ireland, Spain and the UK. In the U.S., the 1976 National Emergencies Act allows the president to invoke a state of emergency and limit certain rights – including the right of habeas corpus – for up to two years. There were 32 declared national emergencies between 1976 and 2001 in the United States."

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/Constitutional%20Reform%20fact%20sheet%20UPDATE1.htm

[L. Coyote]

52. US interference has made passage more likely, don't you agree?

[Bolo Boffin]

57. I don't know. There is still a democracy stumbling along there.

Chavez could lose. If he accepts the will of his people and steps down when it's time, feel free to come back and hound me about this. It's still possible.

But I doubt it.

[hack89]

69. So why are there food shortages?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4599260.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2210473,00.html

[L. Coyote]

73. Government price controls on staple foods are low is the easy answer. The other is

the complex political history of colonialism, corrupt dictatorships and exploitation, .....

For an even more complex understanding, live in one of the Latin American countries for a few years, until fluent and acculturated. Then, the difficult and complex struggle that is social transformation to a more egalitarian society, the undoing of centuries of slavery and exploitation, will be easier to apprehend and understand. Also, the reasons the struggle MUST BE undertaken will be apparent, as well as why the process is not simple and without complications.

[Pavulon]

84. They have billions in currency reserve

maybe the less equal animals could use some of that. I mean napoleon's mom and brothers have great state jobs. It works in Qatar. Guess chavez has other plans for that stack of cash.

[cali]

48. L.Coyote, surely you know that's not an effective threat

Oil is fungible.

[L. Coyote]

50. Actually, Venezuela is 5th in the world and supplies about 1/7th of US oil.

If Venezuela decides to cut back production, they can have an enormous effect in a seller's market already at $100 a barrel.

Plus, Chavez has friends (or rather, the USA has made enemies) who produce oil. The greatest susceptibility of the US economy is energy dependence.

Unfortunately, too many will think this is an empty threat.
Instead, they should focus on wind, solar, and energy independence!!

Don't wait for Bush to wake up on other energy sources, instead of interfering with a democractic election.

[EFerrari]

53. Bush is hilariously shilling for corn ethanol which takes more

energy to produce than it yields. He's the best bad salesman I've ever seen. lol

[Mr_Monday]

56. Not to mention

putting more money into the pockets of Big Agriculture.

[EFerrari]

58. Exactly. You have to give BushCo credit for being efficient

in its business dealings, no matter how horribly they screw up everything else!

[L. Coyote]

79. The construction of ethanol plants is the scam. Those building the plants are not

undertaking the risk that they will be profitable in the long run. The impression I get from what I have seen where I grew up, they get investment capital from the farmers who produce the grain for the process, make a huge profit from building the plant, and move on to the next one.

Is the whole idea just a big scam by those selling the plants to make a quick buck? The investors better hope it is not!

It certainly is illogical to use food to make fuel. And, the legal requirements to add ethanol to gasoline is suspicious, given who supported this.

[RestoreGore]

113. yes he is, and so are the Democrats who voted to up its usage in their "compromise" Energy Bill

What is Chavez doing to promote alternate energy?

[Pavulon]

77. Read up on OPEC and how it works

here is what would happen. If Venezuela cut production of the tar no other nation is currently able to refine, it does not get paid. It has no other real buyers. The price of crude goes up. People bitch, but I'm still driving. If it pops to $5 a gallon the yearly difference for me is a really big bar tab. I'm not going under for a $30 - 60 a month pop in fuel cost.

In the mean time the other OPEC nations will bump production, saudi can turnkey a half million bbd. So the other guys cash in on Napoleon the Pigs stupid move.

Prices stabilize. When he gets a need to feed his Animal Farm he turns the taps back on, the market corrects again.

He is no different than a dope dealer pushing tar heroin. He sells a commodity item.

Oh yeah, his revenue is based in US DOLLARS so if he does manage to screw up the economy, his economic stability is impacted as well. And unlike the US which has a diversified economy, his is based only on oil.

Welcome to global econ 101.

[NickB79]

97. High oil prices affect more than just gas prices

They impact the price of every product that must be shipped, either on a truck, a plane, a train, or a cargo ship. That $30-$60 increase per month at the pump will go along with the spike in food and consumer goods, which could add up to much more.

With millions of Americans struggling to get by as it is, living paycheck to paycheck, a hundred dollars a month in extra expenses could be catastrophic.

[Leopolds Ghost]

132. What WOULD it take for you to drive less?

I'd like to hear what you're doing to improve your environmental habits.

[L. Coyote]

173. Still waiting for that answer, aren't we? Maybe, too invested in wind power LOL

[Mr_Monday]

59. Although I don't like the guy

I kind of admire him for this. It's a good strategy, it actually encourages American busybodies not only to NOT interfere, but to actively prevent other groups from causing trouble during the elections. Of course, Bush is such a dumbass it probably won't matter.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I respect the guy now, simply for the balls it takes to stand up to American influence so directly. I had previously believed him just a big-talker with not actual resolve, I see I'm partially mistaken. Only time will tell.

[killbotfactory]

61. Is it our right to meddle in other countries affairs?

Is it that fucking hard to let them have a vote without US dollars funding riots and violence?

[EFerrari]

63. Eight million bucks via USAID.

And our veterans are going homeless in the meantime. :grr:

[L. Coyote]

93. But, But, MIGHT is always RIGHT (wingers).

[bridgit]

64. He'll end up selling it to someone, and we'll just buy it from them...

oil: the production, sales, politics thereof, petro economics is the most expansive circle-jerk in the world. Chavez can play to the balcony seats if he thinks he needs to. But at $100/bl, and maybe plus that before long, my thought is that he's not prepared to take the hit.

[scarletwoman]

66. What hit would he take? There's no lack of buyers on the planet. (nt)

[bridgit]

70. exactly my point, he didn't say he'd *not* sell it, just that he wouldn't sell it to us...

he wants the money as much as anybody and making so grandiose, histrionic a threat, or claim if you prefer; would seem to suggest he understands something less than the nature of his product base unless he's taking ques from Putin i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia-Ukraine_gas_dispute">A & B, who is very able to cut off whole regions that do not pull his party line

there's little doubt the oil industry is fraught with devils, not just the one (1) Chavez denoted at the U.N. with equally grandiose, histrionic theological mention sadly they're like a dime a dozen and all dancing with someone...we'll just buy it from that devil, the one that's already dancing

[Pavulon]

80. For him there is..

only the US is set up to refine the tar that they sell. No other nation can refine it in bulk. You don't build refineries overnight.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

74. Your own country is fomenting violence in a soveriegn nation

and you accuse Chavez of violence? That's pretty pathetic.

[L. Coyote]

98. Probably the last post by that identity. Watch for first posters any minute now!

[EFerrari]

101. Someone signed on here yesterday to post RW baloney

about Chavez. And, this individual tried to cover that by posting links to extreme far left sites. It was just bizarre.

[L. Coyote]

137. Well, that toad's been smoked now!! LOL

[L. Coyote]

142. HE's BACK! and He's a Pinko Basher LOL like dear Uncle Ron and Allende's assassin.

garaceg (1 posts) Sun Dec-02-07 12:22 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2387574&mesg_id=2389830

I got a copy before it evaporates into toad smoke. Damn Pinko Basher :rofl: can't spell! Didn't know you could obfuscate intellect! I'd love to see the school report card for this poster.

24. CAN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU DEFEND A COMUNIST, A PERSON THAT'S BASICALLY
THE SAME AS FIDEL CASTRO. CAN'T BELIEVE THAT YOUR HATE TOWARDS PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH OBFUSCATES YOUR INTELLECT.

I'LL NEVER WILL PRAISE HUGO CHAVEZ OVER MY BELOVED COUNTRY.... "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA". THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMPERIALISM. HUGO CHAVEZ USES THIS AS AN EXCUSE TO HIS COMMUNIST AND DICTATORIAL PRACTICES (HE'S TRYING TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION SO HE CAN BE RE-ELECTED).

BASICALLY HE BEHAVES THE SAME AS FIDEL CASTRO.... IS IT OK TO BE IN POWER FOR MORE THAN 50 YRS??? (THAT'S HOW LONG CASTRO HAS BEEN IN POWER)

IS IT OK TO HAVE THE PEOPLE KIDNAPPED AND NOT LET THEM LEAVE THEIR COUNTRY??? IS IT NOT TO HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH???

I HOPE YOU ONE DAY... MAYBE ONE DAY OPEN YOUR EYES AND BECOME AWARE OF THE REAL ENEMIES.. HUGO CHAVEZ, CASTRO AND ALL OF THEIR COMMUNIST FOLLOWERS.

FROM A PROUD AMERICAN!!!

[flyarm]

145. gee as he describes Chavez i am thinking it sounds like little lord pissy pants!!

quote
"THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMPERIALISM.( edit :tell that to pissy pants!)

HUGO CHAVEZ USES THIS AS AN EXCUSE TO HIS COMMUNIST AND DICTATORIAL PRACTICES (HE'S TRYING TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION (edit: ahhhh so has pissy pants) SO HE CAN BE RE-ELECTED ( edit: hmmm so did pissy pants)).


so i guess this fool should have said he loves Chavez, because he obviously loves pissy pants and pissy pants has done what he accuses Chavez of!!

fly

[Vinca]

71. It's shameful this country is held hostage by oil.

I don't understand why this alone is not a motivator to put serious time and money into alternative energy sources.

[L. Coyote]

81. As the wind keeps blowing over the fields used to grow Hummer fuel!

[Kajsa]

82. Winds that could be used for energy.

n/t

[Pavulon]

83. It is all about shifting trillions of dollars

from export to other nations to the us farmer. Imagine the state of the magic kingdom or Napoleon the Pig if oil revenue stops.

They would be done. Biodiesel and renewable fuel as well as hydrogen cracked with power from a nuclear power grid is the only way to kick the habit. It is a viable technology.

All the makers of gold toilets and Animal Farm socialists would have to find other revenue streams.

I am sure the economy of the middle east and Venezuela would quickly switch over to a diversified service based economy. Or would just look like sub saharan africa. I bet on the latter.

[devilgrrl]

92. What a saber rattling dictator!!!!

:wow:

[L. Coyote]

95. Horse Puckey! He is the elected President of a Democratic nation. Hence the election.

If he was a dictator, the People would not make the decision, the new law would be in place as a decree already.

GEEEZ people. He is not a dictator, no matter how often Bush and the right repeat that BS mantra!

[EFerrari]

99. That was a joke. The poster is the author of "The Ultimate

Let's Make Shit Up About Chavez" thread. :)

[bpeale]

108. we've meddled in their elections before, so this is not surprising

[EFerrari]

111. No, but this is the first time we've had two stolen Federal elections in

a row, and now are treated to the corporati's same fraud in another country.

We need to learn something here. We have a year to secure 2008.

[flyarm]

134. easy for you to say....we have had 4 stolen elections in Fla!! ...

2000, 2002, 2004 and 2006

just saying...


:hi: :hi: :shrug:

fly

[EFerrari]

143. I hear you! And you know, they're still trying to steal CA!

They'll never stop. :hi:

[flyarm]

148. the two big kahuna states!!

they came ..they stole and they perfected with us in Fla..they infiltrated..and they own us now..the neo cons and now the DLC

but we continue to fight back...but now they have stolen our delegates..our grass root delegates..the me and the you!!
fly

edit to add...

How "democratic" is the Democratic Party? Super Delegates.
Read the whole article. "Some animals are more equal than others." - Orwell

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18277678 /

i was a grass roots delegate..i represented the good people of my county and state..now we can thank the DLC that came and invaded our state of Florida..and have made sure there are no grass roots delegates in Fla , and Michigan.

fly

[RestoreGore]

112. Are they using touchscreen voting machines this time too?

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/world/2004-07-12-venezuela-evote_x.htm

Just curious.

[EFerrari]

116. The difference is, they have open source software and a paper trail.

So, to answer your question, yes, their elections are much cleaner than ours.

[RestoreGore]

118. And you were there so you know that for sure?

[EFerrari]

121. Excuse me? That is the equipment they use and that is their process.

Hate to break it to you, but HAMAS has a cleaner system than we do.

The Election Reform Forum has a lot of good information if you want it.

[flyarm]

141. i guess this person is unaware that Sequoia voting machine used in the USA is owned by Venezuela..

and yet Venezuela hand counts the majority of it's votes and has open source code ..and we here in the USA and in my county of Florida ..have not and do not hand count..and unlike Venezuela that can and have audited elections because of open souce code ..and have been audited by the Carter group..we can not.

We in Florida and in the USA can not have an audit because we do not have open source codes...an audit is
impossible...with no source code available in the USA like it is in Venezuela.

fly

[flyarm]

135. ahhh Carter was and over saw the election with his group ...and he swore it was a very legit

election...

but do remember Jimmy Carter said our system was too screwed up to over see and tell ifthe results were legit.

fly

edit to add:

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/trip_reports/index.html


30 Jan 2004
Venezuela Trip Report: Jan. 25-27, 2004


Except for nations ripped apart by civil war, for several years Venezuela has been the most divided country in which The Carter Center is involved, and there are few evident means by which this division can be healed from within. We have been deeply involved in electoral and other matters in Venezuela since the general election of 1998, when Hugo Chavez was elected overwhelmingly as president, defeating candidates from major parties that had become almost totally discredited among citizens.


4 Jun 2004
President Carter's Trip Report on Venezuela, May 29-June 1, 2004
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1700.html

The Carter Center has been deeply involved in Venezuela election processes for the past six years, having monitored the contest for president in December 1998 in which Hugo Chavez was elected. Subsequently, we observed the referendum that approved a new constitution and then a new election in July 2000 in which Chavez was reelected and governors, members of parliament and local officials were also chosen. Subsequently, in April 2002, a temporary coup removed the president from office for about 48 hours, and domestic turmoil persisted after that political crisis. A belief that the United States gave at least tacit support for the coup attempt and harsh statements by President Chavez have strained relations between the two countries.


30 Jan 2004
Venezuela Trip Report: Jan. 25-27, 2004
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1607.html

Except for nations ripped apart by civil war, for several years Venezuela has been the most divided country in which The Carter Center is involved, and there are few evident means by which this division can be healed from within. We have been deeply involved in electoral and other matters in Venezuela since the general election of 1998, when Hugo Chavez was elected overwhelmingly as president, defeating candidates from major parties that had become almost totally discredited among citizens.




President Jimmy Carter: Venezuela Election Trip Report, Aug 13-18, 2004
By
Jimmy Carter
19 Aug 2004

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

After leaving Georgetown, I arrived in Caracas in the evening of 8/13 and was briefed by Ambassador Shapiro, Jennifer McCoy, Francisco Diez, Rachel Fowler, and other staff members of The Carter Center. I gave them an assessment of my visit to Guyana, and they reported high tensions in Venezuela with the approach of the referendum revocatorio scheduled for 8/15. The next morning I met with Organization of American States Secretary General Gaviria, with former presidents Raul Alfonsín and Eduardo Duhalde, both of Argentina, Belisario Betancur of Colombia, and Rodrigo Carazo of Costa Rica, and then our Carter Center staff to discuss our common approach to our monitoring duties.
Excluding the presidents, our group then met with President Chavez for about two hours. He appeared quite confident but pledged to resign immediately if he should lose the referendum vote and said in that case he would rest for a week and then resume campaigning for re-election. Toward the end of our meeting, I called on him to be gracious in victory, to make every effort to reunite the divided country, and to let us help in establishing a forum for dialogue between the government and opposition groups. He did not respond directly but was very quiet while I spoke and then said he had always wanted the nation to be united. Subsequently, he said he needed to spend more time with me and asked if we could have lunch together on Monday.

We then visited the National Electoral Council headquarters (CNE), where many of our questions were answered, including some about last minute personnel changes in the local polling places and election workers, and our access to all aspects of the voting procedures. In general, we were satisfied. We then met with military leaders, whose forces have always played a major role in elections. The minister of defense finally agreed to abide by all CNE directives and to cancel the military's plan to examine all voter ID cards, which may be seen as intimidation.

Our next meeting was with opposition leaders, where we heard a litany of catastrophic predictions about cheating, intimidation, and actual violence planned by the government for election day. We reported on the assurances we had received from CNE and the military, which answered most of their concerns.

Gaviria and I then had an overflow press conference, where we were able to answer many questions that had been raised about our freedom as observers and about rumored plans of the CNE and military. Our last meetings of the day were with state-owned and privately-owned news media. The latter group predicted that there would be violent attacks on their property and said that government military forces would not protect them. I promised to share their concern with the minister of defense, and he honored my request to strengthen security.

We were out early on election morning and were amazed at the incredibly large turnout, with thousands of people waiting in line an hour before polls were scheduled to open. Venezuela has a system of electronic voting (with a paper ballot backup) and voters' thumbprints are recorded electronically, transmitted by satellite, and compared almost instantaneously to prevent multiple voting. A "No" vote supported Chavez, and a "Yes" vote called for his removal from office. Starting was somewhat slow, but 99.5 percent of the voting machines were on the line by 10:30 a.m. Some of the fingerprint operators did not report for duty, but this was not permitted to interfere with voting. The great waiting crowds were in fine spirits, cheering loudly everywhere we showed up.

During the day, the opposition leaders presented to us and their supporters what turned out to be erroneous exit polling data that showed Chavez losing the vote by 20 points or more, and they also sent this information to their own people and to foreign news media. However, the news media honored the CNE ruling against broadcasting any kind of alleged voting results domestically. In the meantime, long voter lines remained intact past the 4 p.m. closing time, past an extended 8 p.m. closing time, and until midnight, when they finally closed. A few people voted as late as 3 a.m.

At about 12:30 a.m., we and OAS leaders were invited to witness the disclosure of the first electronic tabulation, which showed "No" votes at 57 percent and "Yes" votes at 43 percent among the 6.6 million votes counted at that time (of 10.5 million expected to vote). Gaviria and I decided to invite the private media owners and opposition leaders to my hotel suite to let them know about this and to tell them that this was compatible with our own quick count results. The media owners and some of the opposition said they would accept our judgment while others were angry. We urged them to check their own sample voting results and stated that we would obtain updated figures next morning before making a public declaration of our judgment. We were in Venezuela to remain neutral, to observe the electoral system, and to make a careful and sound final assessment regarding whether the will of the people is expressed. Chavez called me, and I urged him to wait on any claim of victory until after a CNE public announcement and to be generous and positive in his victory statement. He promised to do so.

Finally, after three hours, we offered to the still irate opposition leaders our services in resolving any of their remaining doubts before we had to leave (after two more days). Having insisted all during election day on a 20 point defeat for Chavez, their pollster (Súmate) admitted before leaving that their data now showed only a five point defeat and that quick count data were still being received. Early the next morning, they reported that these results were reversed, with 55 percent supporting Chavez, but opposition leaders still were claiming massive fraud and a victory for their side. Final voting results, including the centers with manual ballots, showed 59-41 in favor of Chavez, with his victory in 22 of the 24 states.

Gaviria and I had another press conference early in the afternoon on Monday to confirm the legitimacy of the CNE returns. I called Secretary of State Colin Powell to report our authentication of results, and he promised to issue a statement from Washington endorsing our findings.

On Monday, we had supper with Chavez and found him eager to begin substantive dialogues with responsible opposition leaders who are willing to reciprocate. We urged him to show generosity to Súmate and some others who are being accused of crimes going back to the coup against him and to ensure a balanced membership of CNE as local and state elections are planned late in September. He was receptive to these suggestions and supported an additional audit of electronic paper ballot backups from the machines that would assuage any remaining doubters.

Although the country was peaceful, some opposition leaders were still in anguish, as indicated by Tuesday morning newspaper editorial headlines, "Catástrofe," "El Fraude Permanente," and "Serias Dudas." After meeting with Súmate and other opposition representatives who claimed there were differences between paper ballot backups and electronically transmitted results, we agreed to have a second audit process to double check the correlation. We made it clear to them and to the public that this did not imply any doubt by The Carter Center or OAS regarding the integrity of the electoral process or the accuracy of the reported results.

After making these arrangements, we met with Catholic bishops and then had a final supper with a group of about 20 empresarios.

Jennifer McCoy and Rachel Fowler stayed in Caracas to oversee the second audit of the machines that we will do with the OAS and the CNE.

[Judi Lynn]

117. Peace Patriot could tell you exactly the difference, being completely informed on this.

I am aware that their machines are open source, and available to review at any point, and provide a paper trail. They also hand-count 54% as a backup everytime.

The ones here have a proprietary code and are completely CLOSED TO ALL review from everyone. Period. Trade secrets, and all that other rot they claim protects the owners.

If Peace Patriot sees your comment you'll get a detailed explanation to the total difference between the two systems.

On edit:

Here's the link to Peace Patriot's description of the Venezuelan accounting system, from today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3782975

[RestoreGore]

119. I don't trust them period. So spare me the lecture.

[EFerrari]

122. I wonder why you distrust the publicly monitored, auditted elections

of Venezuela.

[RestoreGore]

125. I distrust elections period now. And I do not believe poltical party has anything to do with fraud.

They ALL do it if it suits their purposes. And since you offer no proof to back up your claim to "audited" elections but your comment, I have the right to be skeptical. And if this is a Democratic election in Venezuela, why does the military need to stand outside and patrol the polling stations?

[EFerrari]

126. Maybe because there has been violence and threats of violence

and we'd normally call that securing the public good?

You have a search engine.

[RestoreGore]

129. "You have a search engine"

Oh, so they don't have a police force to secure the public good? So when a Socialist uses the military for intimidation it is for the public good? Sorry, it is never for the public good in a "Democratic" country regardless of whether it is a Socialist or a Fascist employing it. And yes, I do have a search engine. Thanks for that revelation.

[EFerrari]

131. I'm sorry to be curt but I and others have posted and reposted

clear answers with links to these questions over and over.

Maybe it would be better if you checked this information out for yourself.

[flyarm]

138. see my post #135

or do some of your own research..its pretty simple to find..google Jimmy Carter and venezuela elections!

or to simplify...........

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/trip_reports/index.html


http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1607.html
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1700.html
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

[Judi Lynn]

123. Apparently they don't trust them totally in Venezuela, and that's why they HAND COUNT

54% of the votes themselves, in addition to the machines' work.

[BornagainDUer]

179. Why the snotty attitude? Shit, she was just providing some info.

[LittleClarkie]

120. Except the poor?

Or will he include them in his embargo.

[LittleClarkie]

139. How would we have felt about interference by other countries in opposition to Bush

Would we have welcomed it or said stay out?

[L. Coyote]

147. Really, what if those purging Dem voters in Florida and Ohio were foreign agents

instead of plain old Republicans? Would we accept foreign cheaters like we do our own?

[flyarm]

151. how do we know foreign agents haven't stolen our elections for a party they want

or a candidate they want?

check into who owns sequoia voting machines...machines we watched change votes in Florida..and drop votes.

We voted with sequoia in my county in Fla and ahhh shucks they couldn't be audited!!

But i was one of 5 testers of the machines after the election in 2004 and i saw first hand how votes swapped candidates!!

oh and the media was there and never reported it.

fly

[Gloria]

149. Chavez has already had US firms turn over the keys to the oil to the

Venezuelan government. He has control and can play it for all it's worth. And he's got Russia and China as best buds, too.

[flyarm]

152. Didn't i read somewhere China has its military training in Venezuela?? am i remembering it

correctly..or was it something like that..gosh so much in one memory can be dangerous!!

lol

fly

[L. Coyote]

160. As have a series of Latin American nations. They wake up, it seems

from the slumber of oppression. Mexico, Peru, ....

And how does the USG react? Not necessarily in a legal fashion.

It is only just and proper for the government of Venezuela to have control of their own national resources. And, given that he has been illegally overthrown once already, and attempts on his life are not outside the realm of posibility, I have to admire his wise choices of friends, considering who is identifying him as an enemy.

The USA needs to, once and for all, put an end to the practice of the government and corporations ignoring International law and the laws of other nations.
We missed an important opportunity during Iran-Contra when Reagan and Bush went completely off the ranch with the Enterprise and an illegal secret government business for war and profit. That could be righted by prosecuting the killings of Ben Linder and Linda Frasier, and other war crimes.

There is no deterrence quite like imprisonment for life. It is never too late to bring killers to the bar of justice!

[Hydra]

157. Truly an enlightening thread, as most Chavez threads are

The number of people here willing to spew the same garbage as Bush often spews is always faintly disturbing.

Chavez can sell to whoever he wants, and he has plenty of people who are interested, and will pay him in something other than dollars. I'm not seeing a problem here except to our murderous oligarchs.

[L. Coyote]

166. Voice of America: Senator Levin Rejects Chavez Allegations of Interference

How would Senator Levin know?

===============
US Senator Rejects Chavez Allegations of Interference
By Brian Wagner - Caracas - 02 Dec 2007
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-12-02-voa28.cfm


A leading U.S. senator has rejected allegations by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez that Washington is seeking to destabilize the South American nation. In Caracas, VOA's Brian Wagner reports Mr. Chavez is in a tightly contested constitutional referendum that could allow him to stay president as long as he likes.

President Chavez has leveled a series of allegations against the United States in recent days, such as forming plans to interfere in Sunday's election, topple his government or use CIA agents in Colombia to assassinate him.

Late Saturday, the Venezuelan leader renewed a threat to halt oil sales to the United States if attacked. Mr. Chavez said if the United States harms Venezuela, Americans will have to look for new oil sources because Venezuela will end its supply. Venezuela is the fourth largest supplier of foreign oil to the United States, and sends more than 60 percent of its production to U.S. facilities. ....

"First of all we are not seeking to destabilize him," said Senator Levin. "His policies, his efforts at dictatorship, to amend the constitution so he can stay there for life, that is what is destabilizing Venezuela, not our policies."

Senator Levin told CNN television that he doubts Venezuela would actually halt oil sales in any event, .........

[EFerrari]

167. When someone denies something like this, it makes you wonder. n/t

[BornagainDUer]

183. It sure does. I mean how does he know the US isn't doing these things?

It seems to me that the neo-liberal dems are starting to close ranks with their repuggie colleagues to fend off the peoples voice.

[EFerrari]

191. We know that USAID sent 8 million dollars to the opposition.

And, we saw a brazillion hit pieces in our press and on the teevee. And the State Department lying repeatedly about the election process in Venezuela. Can Carl Levin not add?

[BornagainDUer]

180. Neo-liberalism in full regalia. Levin ignores the past to get by in the present.

[L. Coyote]

182. I call BS on Senator Carl Levin (D-MI). As if Bush would say, "Carl, ..."

Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) is not exactly George Bush's partner in covert ops :rofl:
and just would not know what Bush and Big Oil are up in the illegalities department.

[EFerrari]

192. By now, don't you think he would? He watched them steal

two elections and lie us into Iraq. :shrug:

[mahatmakanejeeves]

172. So what's he going to do with it instead?

Fill swimming pools with it?

[robcon]

181. He'll sell it to whoever wants to buy it.

The oil market is completely fungible - if one party won't/can't buy, another party will. The Chavez statement has no impact on the oil market whatsoever. If he doesn't sell it to the U.S., he'll sell it elsewhere, and some other country/source will fill in the difference for the U.S.