Little tree, big menorah draws fire

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/685684,CST-NWS-lit07.article

LONG BEACH, N.Y. -- Residents didn't want to have themselves a merry little Christmas tree. They wanted a big one.

When city officials planted a 7-foot-tall Christmas tree next to a 20-foot-tall menorah in the plaza in front of City Hall, some residents barked. They telephoned City Hall, wrote letters and testified at a public hearing that the tiny tree in the shadow of the huge Hanukkah symbol was an insult to Christians.

''What's up with the giant menorah and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree?'' resident Rick Hoffman asked.

[displacedtexan]

1. A "Charlie Brown" tree is the most sincere.

Well, it is.

[mikeytherat]

5. Yes, it is.

And amidst the glitz and glam of the Commercial Christmas Tree Sell-a-thon, Chuckie Brown finds the little tree that just needs a home. The one everyone else is neglecting and overlooking.

"What's up with the giant menorah and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree?'' resident Rick Hoffman asked. Perhaps, Mr. Hoffman needs to examine the lessons of this wonderful cartoon a bit more closely.

mikey_the_rat

[tom_paine]

46. That cartoon, in today's Imperial Amerika, is an anarchronistic relic of another nation

and another time.

Before the Iron Fist (for the moment in a velvet glove) of BushPutinism sezied our nation in late 2000.

To Bushmericans it's a lesson mawkish and soft...the epitome of Liberal Weakness, which Bushies and Nazis and so many other totalitarians in between, seem to so loathe.

What can I say mikey? I have absolutely no doubt that many Bushies in our age bracket still view those cartoons with sentimentality, and how completely that "lesson" is compartmentalized so that it does not touch their minds, their consciences.

Mr. Hoffman just would not understand, you Liberal Weakling. :sarcasm:

[mikeytherat]

48. I bow to your sarcasm, oh wise Mr. Paine.

In 2001, I was at "curmudgeon." At the present, I am working rapidly toward full-on, pissed-off misanthrope.

mikey_the_rat

[rpannier]

9. Maybe they'd have been happier if the tree had been a 50' aluminum one

painted green to look like a Christmas tree

Then they could have had round the clock pine scent spray so it would smell like a real tree

And the lights could have been search lights and monster truck headlights so it would have been the brightest thing for 1000 miles. So bright in fact, that God could see the lights from where ever he lives up there. (It might even alert aliens that we're here)

And the star could have been part of a comets dust (so it would be kind of a real star)

And it could be surrounded by the biggest and most lavish wrapped gifts imaginable.


I mean...isn't that the way we should celebrate the birth of the Savior who was born in a stable?

With a shrine that is nothing like what he experienced or is remotely associated with his teachings.

[mikeytherat]

10. Just because Jesus and his family were dirt-poor and shunned by society,

does not mean you should bring it up. That's rude. Now get out there and really celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace by getting up at 3:00 a.m. to stand in the cold and get a half-assed deal on a Playstation.

mikey_the_rat

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kutjara]

3. It's important that, as well as being better than all other religions,...

...Christianity is also bigger than all other religions. One's faith is not only measured by the strength of one's spirit, but also by the length and girth of one's symbols. Obviously, a small tree renders Christianity limp and flaccid next to the impressive, jutting tumescence of Judiasm...I mean Judaism. Only a huge, purple-veined, proudly throbbing tree can restore Christianity's manhood and reestablish it's place as top dog at the ecumenical orgy.

[hisownpetard]

50. OMG, I never knew that theology could be such a stimulating experience!!

[theHandpuppet]

4. Mary and Joseph didn't have a pagan tree for Jesus

But I'll bet they had a Menorah! :-)

From Wikipedia...
Roots
With likely origins in European pre-Christian cultures, the Christmas tree has gained an extensive history and become a common sight during the winter season in various countries.

Germanic tribes
Patron trees (for example, the Irminsul, Thor's Oak and the figurative Yggdrasil) held special significance for the ancient Germanic tribes, appearing throughout historic accounts as sacred symbols and objects. According to Adam of Bremen, in Scandinavia the Germanic pagan kings sacrificed nine males (the number nine is a significant number in Norse mythology) of each species at the sacred groves every ninth year.
According to Church records, Saint Boniface (who, also according to Church records, had felled the Thor's Oak) attempted to Christianise the indigenous Germanic tribes by introducing the notion of trinity by using the cone-shaped evergreen trees because of their triangular appearance.
Other notable traditions in relation to Christmas have also been derived from Germanic paganism, including the Yule log, Christmas ham, stuffing stockings, elements of Santa Claus and his nightly ride through the sky, and surviving elements of Pre-Christian Alpine traditions in the Alps.

So when do the sacrifices begin in the Christmas Tree parking lot?

[SharkSquid]

8. Not likely

The temple was the only place with a Menorah in that time. The candelabra used on the holiday is called a Haunukia (sic) and did not come into popular use until after the temple was destroyed. a true menora has two fewer candles.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. Nothing makes these people happy. It's not OK just to have a damn tree...it has to be BIGGER than

any other religious symbol. How freakin' petty can they get? How ridiculous! At least their town bothered to honor their religion. Mine doesn't, but every freakin' year we have a Nativity scene on the village square.

[shenmue]

17. You know what they say about people with big trees.

:dunce:

[rpannier]

7. You can be sure this will be headining faux news for the next month

[BuelahWitch]

11. Since when is 7 feet puny?

Not exactly a "Charlie Brown Christmas tree." Maybe they should ask themselves if Jesus would even give a shit? December 25th isn't his real birthday anyway...

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. Well, in a repuke mind it's small when sitting next to a 20 foot Menorah. If the tree was

20 feet tall and the Menorah was 7 feet tall....this thread wouldn't exist because the RW wackos wouldn't have anything to bitch about. It's all so stupid.

[PCIntern]

20. right you are...

we're loaded with these guys lately..

[Tyler Durden]

13. MY Dick, I mean, Religious Symbol is bigger than YOURS...

Neener Neener Neener.

[mikeytherat]

14. I don't know - I think a menorah could kick a Christmas tree's ass.

First of all, it's got eight candles. What's the tree got? A star? Some ornaments?

You know what we need to settle this? Holiday Symbol Fight Club - Death Match!

mikey_the_rat

[Richard Steele]

15. Can anyone show me where the Bible says a PINE TREE is one of Jesus' symbols?

Idiots. This has NOTHING to do with Christianity, and
everything to do with dick-waving tribalism.

[mikeytherat]

18. How 'bout this?

Jeremiah 10:1-5. (verses 3 and 4): "For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter." (NIV)

This Scripture refers to the making of a graven or carved image out of a tree trunk, as shown in verse 5: "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."

Later in the chapter false gods that have not made the earth are contrasted with the true God, the Creator (see verses 9-11). Images are vanity, and they shall perish (notice verses 14,15).

Decorated tree = false idol?

mikey_the_rat

[Richard Steele]

26. Damn fine answer right there! nm

[SharkSquid]

28. As I recall

Tree decoration is actually forbidden in Torah. Leviticus I believe.

[TlalocW]

16. Someone needs to take Linus' speech

And dub in, "Rick Hoffman," over, "Charlie Brown," at the end when he says, "And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown."

Anyway, the tree is going to grow. Be patient. It will be bigger than all the other religious holiday symbols in town one glorious day.

TlalocW

[shenmue]

19. What's really funny is, Jesus was Jewish...

If he were alive today, I'm sure he'd be celebrating Hanukkah.

:party:

[SharkSquid]

27. Prolly would

but it likely would not be the orgy of one-upsmanship that has infected both our communities over the last few years.

[NCarolinawoman]

41. You sound like a very fair and wise man.

:thumbsup:

[rockymountaindem]

21. This is simultaneously hillarious and depressing

Don't people have anything else to concern themselves with? Geez.

[iamahaingttta]

22. Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ!

Are you humans still fighting over this silly shit?
They're just fucking holidays, meant for giving toys to the kiddies!

WHO CARES?!?!?

[SharkSquid]

32. Chanukkah is not for giving toys to the kiddies

gelt maybe but not toys.

[Stuckinthebush]

23. God, I hate this time of year

The loonies come out.

Let's just scrap the whole thing and start over, ok?

How many days until December 26th?

[npincus]

24. The War on Christmas is back on!!

[charlie]

25. Baby Jesus heard the cries of despair

and all is well in PennyAnteVille again...

After enduring a week of phone calls, jokes and a City Council memo about the vertically challenged 7-foot tree, Eaton ordered a new one.

The city of about 35,000 residents 25 miles southeast of midtown Manhattan now has a tree to match the 20-foot menorah: a 20-foot blue spruce.

The old tree, a Bacheri spruce, was stripped of its lights, dug up and whisked away to a mall.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004057912_tree07.html

Next year, they should contract to cut down and deliver a big fucking Sequoia, so there's no danger of this happening again.

[marions ghost]

29. I'm wondering

if the lack of large trees has anything to do with "climate change" (as the assault on the environment is objectively but euphemistically called). Seriously the droughts affecting the eastern US (along with general deforestation) might have pinched the market and made it hard to get a larger tree for any amount of money.

Comparing Xmas trees with Menorahs in any way --is about the stupidest thing I've heard of yet.

Can we celebrate our winter rituals and holidays in a spirit of PEACE? Not in dog-eat-dog, competitive, combative America it seems....

[SharkSquid]

30. Sometimes the Jewish community is just as bad or worse than the Christian Community

Ever been to Palm Beach or Boca Raton, we might be missing some of the story, maybe the Long Beach Jewish Community demanded that the Menorah be 20ft tall and the Christian community just didnt have input to the size of their tree.:shrug:

[Neecy]

33. and you claim to be Jewish?

uh huh, right....

[SharkSquid]

35. What because I think the little old biddies in Boca Raton

Who yell at GIRL SCOUTS for not having the same amount of Chanukkah paper as Christmas paper are over the top. The old New York Jewish folk down here give the rest of us a bad name. Clearly though I am out of line with what the high authority of American Judaism has said is the party line, oh wait, there is no higher authority and I can feel as I like about what our culture has become in the last 20 years.

[Neecy]

38. certainly you can feel as you like

But there are some interesting generalizations there - that Jews in New York 'demanded' the higher menorah, 'old biddies' in Boca Raton, the 'old New York Jewish folk...'

Sounds sort of self-hating, if you're truly Jewish.

Happy Hanukkah!

[SharkSquid]

40. I am assuming you never lived in Boca Raton

Or seen "Kings Point"

Sometimes "generalizations" are fact-based observations of a very real subculture in South Florida.

Fact: Most old folks in Boca are women.

Fact: there are ALOT of old Jewish folk in Boca

Fact: A huge number of the retirees in Boca are from New YorK/Jersey

Fact: the incident I described involved a group of said older Jewish women who were, I can reasonably assume, from New York (I made this assumption based on their accent and their reference to whether or not you could get away with that crap "on the Island").

Observation: Nearly every Jewish person I have met in that area is angry at some sort of slight. And most of thos slights involve percieved offenses to our faith. This occasionally includes my aunts BTW.


Thus my "generalizations"
in describing the very real group of angry old persons in Boca Raton.

[Wiregrass Willie]

31. To paraphrase P .G. Wodehouse ..

It's December and Christmas and Hanukkah are at our throats again."

[yardwork]

34. ohforcryingoutloud

[gollygee]

36. It isn't a competition

*sigh*

It would be nice if they were roughly equivalent in size but there could be dozens of reasons why one would be bigger other than that someone at city hall wanted to insult anyone. Maybe someone donated the menorah and so they happened to have a big one. Maybe if Christians are upset they should pool their resources and see if they can't find a bigger Christmas tree to donate? Maybe outdoor menorah displays are typically very large while outdoor Christmas tree displays are typically the size of trees that would go in a house? Who knows.

[Lurking Dem]

37. Much ado.

The city had looked for a bigger tree (even Canada) and couldn't find one.

They have now found a 22 foot blue spruce and will have a lighting ceremony tonight.

The 7 foot tree will be moved to a shopping mall.

[tom_paine]

39. If you read history, this is very typical medeval behavior as Bushist Amerika is becoming medeval

in much the same way Hitler's Germany became medeval on their way to much worse.

How do I mean? To any Jew who has studied the history of our oppression knows, this fetsihizing the idea that the Christian Church must be bigger than the Jewish Synagogue and the lengths of cruel and barbaric punsihments meted out to many a medeval European Jewish community if they even dared improve their hovel of a place of worship, let alone try tp make it anywhere near the opulence of medeval Christian Churches.

"Tactical echoes," as Naomi Wolf puts it, in refernec to other Bushie Trends but which also applies to this one.

The BushChristian (insert thign here) MUST be bigger than the heathen.

This fits perfectly with what the Bushies are reprogramming our nation for.

[SharkSquid]

42. Stretching a bit, I fear?

"How do I mean? To any Jew who has studied the history of our oppression knows, this fetsihizing the idea that the Christian Church must be bigger than the Jewish Synagogue and the lengths of cruel and barbaric punsihments meted out to many a medeval European Jewish community if they even dared improve their hovel of a place of worship, let alone try tp make it anywhere near the opulence of medeval Christian Churches."
Ummmm I think that might be a bit of a stretch, it would take a hell of a feat to get rid of the Jews in America in that way, particularly with all of "us" that are now on "their" side.

[tom_paine]

44. Maybe. But you misread how I am applying it.

I agree that, viewed from your perspective, it isn't a small stretch but a large one. A great huge :tinfoilhat: one. And you are correct in that point made against someone who is intimating along those lines.

But I am not coming from that direction. I do not fear a new holocaust of Jews too badly. Considering that most Jews, especially by now, in the lower 90% of the income bracket are hugely against the Bushies, but our rich and powerful stand with him, and many of us staff their propaganda mills, which no doubt pays handsome blood money.

We Jews are no different from anyone else, and our "High Social Dominators" (please feel free to clink on either of my signature links to further understand where I am coming from, if you wish) betray the rest of us just like any other race's, creed's or color's "High Social Dominators" betray them. It's beyond race.

As to where I am coming from by citing this connection: I do not fear organized progrom, at least not those based on religious differences. Jewish Bushies will be safe from the coming depradations(if there are to be any, no onecan accurately predict the details of the future when the climate generally starts to slide and oil reaches $300/bbl., which could be 3-20 years from now) as well as African-American Bushies.

American Totalitarianism, is and will probably even it's final form (if these trends remain unaltered), kinder and gentler than those which came before it. What I am saying about this is not that I believe America is beginning to organize against the Jews (though Bushie America certainly has organized, using "tactical echoes" of previous language and phrasing to smear Liberals that not too long ago were the exact same calumnies aginst us Jews), but that these are symptoms of a growing medeval absolutism and eliminationist talk, if not actual functioning eliminationism in practice.

Another example, with illustrative extrapolations linking the phrasing, historically.

The Jews are Traitors to Germany.
The Liberals are Traitors to America.

The Jews aren't really Germans.
The Liberals aren't really Americans.

The Jews always side with Germany's enemies.
The Liberals always side with America's enemies.

Think about it. Click on my signature links for further information about why there is far more to what I am saying that just overstretched hyperbole. Look at them, especially Naomi Wolf's YouTube presentation, and then see how much you think I am stretching.

I don't know what else to tell you. You are both right and wrong in your observation. I urge you to dig deeper. Oh, one more reference which I think has relevance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

[SharkSquid]

45. Much appreciated

Thank you for your measured response.

[tom_paine]

47. My pleasure. Please click on the three links, BBC, Youtube, and Altemeyer's Book

I someties get hot under the collar (no one is perfect), but as long as someone is making a civil point, I try to respond in kind.

I also expect, that should you view even two of those three, you may be of a different mind. But that is for you to decide, and I would be interested in hearing your comments if you should explore them further.

See you 'round the boards. :hi:

[Clark2008]

43. What? No cresent moon?

No Kwanzaa candles?
At least the Pagan tree is covered.

Bigots. :eyes:


(Seriously, this stuff has gotten out of hand. This is why there should be separation of Church and State).

[NorthernSpy]

49. where the hell do you buy a twenty foot menorah?

The candles must be the size of cruise missiles.


:wow:


An arms race of holiday decorations.