Why doesn't anybody talk about this?

[autorank]

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

The number is shocking and sobering.

It is at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, yet it is based on a scientific study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003.Study. Johns Hopkins School of Public Health)
[br />That study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then. The graphic above provides a rough daily update of this number based on a rate of increase derived from the Iraq Body Count. (See the complete explanation.)

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007. Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion.

This devastating human toll demands greater recognition. It eclipses the Rwandan genocide and our leaders are directly responsible. Little wonder they do not publicly cite it. Here is simple HTML code to post the counter to your website and help spread the word.

Here's a link where you can do something about it but even if you don't go there, talk about it.
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

It is our great shame and there is nothing but silence.

[goodgd_yall]

1. Because America doesn't really give a f* about the "enemies'" casualties n/t

[stillcool]

2. I did use the link

at that site to write an LTTE that got published. I posted the information here, but was accused of inflating the figures for political gain. Sometimes it's too, too sad.

[autorank]

7. Can't imagine anyone sill enough to dispute these figures.

Attacking Johns Hopkins Univ. School of Public Health and Lancet was so intellectually deprived but the press did it, some alternative types too - "Controversial Study" - sure because the guilty made it a controversy not having anything to do with the study (that should draw them out;)

[stillcool]

23. He/She used the ..

http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx
as the most reliable source. I did find one article that explained very succinctly the problem with accumulating figures through western media sources. I wish I could find it because it went into great detail regarding the reporting in Iraq in general, as well as how deaths are reported. It was very bizarre to argue over the death of a few hundred thousand human beings either way....

[autorank]

29. Hey there...you're right. I find the two surveys compelling, though in that they agree.

But what's the difference...we've wiped out the equivalent of Norfolk or Atlanta...it's the needless deaths of civilians that is not even mentioned. I'll bet there are more articles on the "controversy" than on the deaths. Bizzaro world!

[TwilightGardener]

3. Americans don't want to dwell on our "great shame", as you put it.

GOPers know this--they know we want to feel good about ourselves as a country, feel like winners and do-gooders who "saved" the Iraqi people from a dictator, rather than greedy, fearful, aggressive invaders. That's why all the "victory" rhetoric RE Iraq, that's why they emphasize democracy, that's why we hear shit like "the Baghdad zoo opened for business yesterday", that's why the people killing each other and our soldiers in Iraq are "al Qaeda" or "terrorists" or "the enemy". They can't possibly be native Iraqis who resent our presence and resent what we did to their country and their people.

[autorank]

4. The process of dehumanizing "the enemy" worked. Maybe these aren't people to some people?

[TwilightGardener]

10. I think it's more like we look at most Iraqis as bratty orphaned children that

we are now saddled with--a condescending attitude, to be sure. And anyone who fights us there is dehumanized, absolutely. If you're not for us, you're against us. If you disagree with Mighty America and all its wonderful and benevolent deeds, we will cut you down.

[autorank]

28. Bingo, hense the chastising attitude because they weren't doing enough.

Very good point. Not doing enough. Lets see, our own State Department polling plus independent polling in Iraq has shown consistent large majorities for us to leave, get out soon. Yet the election system we set up in Iraq created a parliament that can't vote that resolution through. Gee how did that happen? Could it be one of those special rigged elections so common here and elsewhere?

Your point on attitude is excellent.

[sam sarrha]

5. about the same now as the Chinese "Genocide" in Tibet, which is the size of western europe

[dogday]

6. Then we would have to admit the Colossal mistake

it was to go into Iraq in the first place, now we have to admit to that staggering amount of Dead Iraqis. Well it just would not look right, and we all know it's all about how things are perceived... That these Iraqis sacrificed for freedom, whether they wanted to or not...

It is all such a freaking shame and the worst lie in the history of our country...

[autorank]

8. You know, it may be the worst...

Because it was pivotal...took us from looking forward, e.g., completion of DNA code in 2000, to looking stupid. The opportunity costs are staggering.

[truedelphi]

22. Am always speechless in the face of such painful truth

K & R'ed

Am always angry when some "liberal" tells me that not that many Iraqis died because Shock and Awe used smart bombs that only killed bad people. And that those who have died in the secular violence -w ell that is the Iraqis own fault for killing one another.

And RW friends say, the media won't expose the good that we have done there. They REALLY don't get it - what does it matter if we build a school or a treatment plant for every 100,000 people we kill??

[autorank]

30. Just tell them this..

The deaths get in the way of one of the great goals, democracy. How can they vote if they're dead?

That might stop them for a moment.

I liked the troop survey just out. The soldiers are lined up with the public, on Iraq - 65% out in less than a year. Many, I forget the %, said it wasn't worth it in the first place.

:hi:

[AuntPatsy]

9. When I attempt to discuss this with people I know, you would be surprised how many

get upset with me and tell me to move over there if I care so much about them, horrific as it is, most American citizens care but don't really as long as they don't have to witness it or talk about it the whole issue becomes a non issue to them...

It is a shame but too many of our citizens are selfish egotistical mind numbing pathetic excuses of living flesh...in some ways the core of human existance is no better than the animal kingdom, but taken from the Alien's movie, "at least you won't find them fucking each other over for a GD percentage", no truer words were ever spoken...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Yup, lots of racism and xenophobia in the American psyche

Here in the Twin Cities there's been a dust-up about a morning drivetime jock who has a history of making racist comments about nearly every dark-skinned ethnic group in the Twin Cities. But guess what? That station is one of the most popular in the area.

[AuntPatsy]

14. Well I think the continued existence of Rush and his kind is also proof of our countries

true underlying makeup of loving those who openly make racist remarks against those many feel un-superior since they themselves are more than likely to cowardly to talk openly in the same manner...

Your right, such continued success of such programs proves exactly what resides in our country beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

48. BINGO

[autorank]

42. The right has to use racism and MSM has to focus on it. This jock & his audience

are substantial but probably a small minority of fools. Yet they get all the pub. Wonder why?
It's the ONLY way that the right can win - racism, hysteria, phony nationalism. They have no
issues. Now for those who follow this crap, shame on them and also the idiots who allow it...the
owners.

Bust up the media! Bring back the "fairness" dictrine - equal time - so people like us can go
on air and say "Stan Shock Jock is a total f'ing idiot. The only reason he says this crap is because
he feels sexually inadequate. Have a nice day:)"

[autorank]

31. Denial will be increasingly difficult.

With other nations covering the story and the internet, when the war is finally over, rather, when we're out, people won't be able to ignore it. Even old Huck will have to have an accounting of what was done in our name by "THEM" - and it is their fault.

[End Of The Road]

11. Failed MSM

We don't talk about it because it is not deemed newsworthy.

[autorank]

32. That's true. They're both actively and passively complicit in the whole mess!

[polichick]

13. The administration doesn't count brown people...

...because to Bush & Co. brown people don't count.

[flashl]

15. We didn't acknowledge the human costs of Iraq sanctions

or deaths from DU of Gulf War I.

[autorank]

33. We sure didn't and they were phenomenal.

The UN had figures like 500,000 children and and over a million total civilians. The lowest figure that anyone came up with was 100,000 children. But Madeline Allbright's response summed it up. A reporter approached her at the UN and said, "Are you aware that UN sanctions are responsible for the deaths of 500,000 children, she said it was complicated but "We think the price was worth it."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_QshS2EW8

She backtracked, which is good, but still..."worth it" - to whom? Certainly not the dead and their families. The sanctions deaths should have been the obvious reason that Cheney etc. were full of lies when they said we would be welcomed with open arms. Give me a break...what nonsense. But it was passively accepted by corporate media.

[bleever]

16. Innocent people

make up the vast majority of that total.

Not terrorists, or Iraqi soldiers. Just people, who were in the way.

God help us.

[autorank]

35. Right, they did nothing.

And failed to get the benefits of the general degradation of the society's infrastructure and economic viability brought to Iraq by the total incompetence of of the neo conservative liberators. What a wretched situation Bush-Cheney created.

[Double T]

17. bushco's atrocity was supported by every American............

either directly and/or indirectly. That's why NOBODY wants to talk about IT!

[rockybelt]

18. It depends on who is counting

If the US is counting, they don't count the majority of the deaths as being combat related or insurgents. Depends on whether they get shot in the front of the head or the back of the head.

What about American deaths? How many have really been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many have really been wounded? How many have PTSD?

[autorank]

36. Yep

I'm sure that the PTSD rate is off the charts given the recently reported suicide rates for those who served there. Stunning figures. The actual American deaths are probably subject to not so clever parsing that we'll know about only months after it's over. Nobody can tell the truth on this one because of the huge support for the Iraq War Resolution and the funding. Like our distinction on "head" shots.

[Benhurst]

19. Because we are still being governed by that day of infamy,

December 12, 2000.

[autorank]

38. The theft of a nation, right out in the open, by a bunch of thugs.

Popular Vote Gore (winner) 51,003,926 Bush 50,460,110

[babylonsister]

20. THANK YOU for talking about it, autorank.

I try to post about the poor Iraqis, but almost no one seems to care. I'm glad you got some attention.

[autorank]

39. You're welcome. This has been so effectively ignored, even informed people

do a double take when they see it.

[bagrman]

21. What about the permanent gift of DU munitions. Nobody much knows

About that little gift at all. It's the war crime that will keep giving for time eternal. Iraq is a nuclear waste land. Here's a site to give you a little primer.


http://rense.com/Datapages/dudata.htm


The first video listed shows what is happening now to unborn babies, and will keep happening for a long time. Mind you it's gross, don't bother complaining you were warned.

Latr

[BrklynLiberal]

27. ..and that affects the US soldiers as well.

[OneBlueSky]

24. petitions to Congress aren't worth crap . . . Congress doesn't care what we think . . . n/t

.

[autorank]

40. You're right. I wanted to post what Information Clearning House had without editing.

But there's still reason to write them and call to remind our "leaders" that we're becoming increasingly intolerant of their lies. But they'll probably make even that illegal.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. "One man's death is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Joe Stalin

The powers that be have successfully reduced the tragedy of over a million individual deaths into mere, inconsequential, numbers.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[BrklynLiberal]

26. I remember when the Lancet figures first same out..and everyone in the MSM was poo-pooing them

No doubt there are more deaths caused by this war than any of us will ever know about.

[autorank]

43. There are trolls everywhere. This was not controversial.

It's akin to the tobacco lobbyists saying, "There's no proven connection between smoking and cancer." Well, absent lab experiments with humans, no there isn't a laboratory experiment that proves it. But post hoc research means you can't observe directly under lab conditions. You make statistical inferences based on some very clear rules that have proven to be correct.

Same thing with this research. Lancet is the gold standard of scientific research. But who in the press went to the editor of that journal and said, "Hey, why did you accept this?" My bet, a Franklin, is exactly zero. But that's how the game is played here. I'm surprised Vegas allows betting on presidential elections but not professional wrestling. They're indistinguishable at this point...

[KoKo]

34. "THEY" are keepin the Powder Dry...we have to get through another "Selection" for '08

At some point they might get to it...when we are all DEAD and there's few left to remember. :sarcasm:

:-(

[autorank]

41. Hey, man, that "powder" was purchased at a premium...

:sarcasm:
Get it wet, can't use it; use it now, can't use it later. But later, will be now at that point, so we'll just have to hang onto it in case we waste it. So, ya know, just chill, we might use/I meant lose our majority.

A few paid a lot for that "powder" and they don't like it when their crew disobeys orders. Keep it dry.

[riverdeep]

58. Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, and Ron Paul.

They are the only candidates to fully address the horror, each for their own reasons, perhaps. That they are also the ones on the fringes should tell us something. The American people don't want the truth. They want feel-good stories about a shining city on a hill.

[NMMNG]

37. Guilt?

:shrug:

[Orwellian_Ghost]

44. Essential reminder

K&R

[Orwellian_Ghost]

45. More than 4 million Iraqis displaced

GENEVA - More than 4 million Iraqis have now been displaced by violence in the country, the U.N. refugee agency said Tuesday, warning that the figure will continue to rise.

The number of Iraqis who have fled the country as refugees has risen to 2.2 million, said Jennifer Pagonis, spokeswoman for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. A further 2 million have been driven from their homes but remain within the country, increasingly in “impoverished shanty towns,” she said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19055852/

[riverdeep]

59. The story of those refugees is a stunning tragedy.

Even fewer are talking about them. Out of sight out of mind. The nations they fled to treat them like crap. So much for middle east 'brotherhood'. Many of them have now run out of money. So either they go back, or in the case of women, are prostituting themselves to get by. But it was all worth it according to the mouth breathers.

[Kurovski]

46. K&R. (nt)

[msedano]

47. you and i killed those people

leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that, by accident of birth, i am an "american" in the eyes of the rest of the world. when people talk about the rapacious united states they mean you and they mean me, and no way can we deny it.

iraq is only the current quagmire. remember vietnam? korea? one day our writers will fill the silence...
http://labloga.blogspot.com/2007/12/review-martin-limn-wandering-ghost.html
http://labloga.blogspot.com/2007/11/marts-onanism-johnsons-novel.html

[Tom Joad]

49. but, but, Bush is going to spend more on domestic programs...

we can kill more iraqis AND fund more stuff here.


it's not we knew any of those people anyway. and do they vote Democratic? no.

so who cares? outside a small circle of friends.

[stillrockin]

50. There is silence because

either people don't care or if they do, feel helpless. I am deeply ashamed and pained. I don't know what to do. Every politician I contact gives me platitudes. It is so frustrating that eventually I find myself merely hoping it will end soon. It is ugly, ugly, ugly and I hate what our country is doing.

[Tom Joad]

51. dems seem set to continue funding lil' adolf's war on Iraq.

just what i would expect of them.
i have very low expectations, and the dems don't disappoint.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

52. "It is our great shame and there is nothing but silence."

The multitude of evil and death and shame causes such silence. We are numb with pain and grief.

[upi402]

53. true OP, good point

I know folks who are pissed about this too.

[Whisp]

54. and this number does not include the Clinton war on Iraq

shame all around.

[stellanoir]

55. George Dubious who popularized the phrase "fuzzy math"

has eviscerated the practice of counting anything. . .

votes, funds looted, nor the bodies of innocents.

Accountability is no longer.

So here's a prayer. . .

*We are creating with spirit, that deceit be eclipsed by truth, that corruption be eclipsed by true justice, that tyranny be eclipsed by freedom, that bigotry be eclipsed by understanding, that bellicosity be eclipsed by diplomacy, that militarism be eclipsed by environmentalism, that terrorism be eclipsed by humanism, that greed be eclipsed by generosity, that righteousness be eclipsed by kindness, that war be eclipsed by peace, and that fear and hatred be eclipsed by universal love.*

Optimum time for saying it is December 11th at 2:26 pm EST.

more later.

K & R big bro

[annabanana]

57. Projection. Early and clear example.. . . . n/t

[tom_paine]

56. Self- and Bushie mediated censorship of a type we have all become accustomed to

Too much of a bummer, plus it didn't come in with the e-mail from the boss distributing RW talking-points and issue frames.

Our new Amerikan version of Hitler's media is a curious mixture of the window-dressing of freedom coverig a slavish mentality, but in the end it is a thousand times more sophisticated and powerful than Hitler's ham-fisted attempt (which in those days were cutting edge and newly innovative, as the Bushies are today).

There are many fine articles more eloquently and deeply fleshing out what has gone wrong, from a nuts and bolts perspective. For a chilling simple list, see Eric Alterman's recent article "What Wrong with the Media?"

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071224/alterman

That is the opposite of all the philosophizing and wonder of HOW it happened.

It is a simple list of how it HAPPENS, and it is stark in the fact that it is wholly and 100% true.

[autorank]

62. tom_paine, that's a great explanation!!!

The sophistication of "normalizing" the grotesque and criminal is beyond any previous efforts at media control which focused on making bad news disappear. In the case of the deaths, the war has been normalized in the public square by simply not paying much attention to it. When something like this comes along, the immediate coverage is on a meta level - wait! those stats are wrong, say the flunkies. So lets say they're 50% too high, does that mean there's no problem. Of course Lancet is is one of the most eminent and trusted scientific publications ever. That doesn't phase the dissemblers.

Thanks to a really good federal technology transfer program, we've got the Internet and can bypass this. That's the flaw but they're looking at resolving that with the 404-6 passage of thought crimes bill H.R. 1955. The Senate will probably ratify that but messing with the Internet is another third rail of U.S. politics so good luck to them. It won't work and the unified Congress will have exposed itself as... we'll come up with some appropriate name at the time;)

[riverdeep]

60. This is the first war where they don't show the dead coming home.

When we care so little about our own dead that we can let something like that stand, it doesn't bode well for the so-called other side. I say so-called because one of the shifting reasons for the war was to liberate these people, which would indicate that at one time they were on our side.

I actually heard someone say not too long ago that he thought the Iraqi casualties were 'only' something like 30,000 to 50,000 innocents. Even if that were so, these same people believe that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 which killed 3000 innocents. So aren't we at least 10 times more evil than Osama?

[autorank]

63. The indifference to our own losses - exemplified by the suicide story.

What an amazing story and kudos to CBS news for digging and calculating the figure. The ran the story, they covered it on 60 minutes, and they followed up with an explanation on how they got accurate data - by using young interviewers and putting those interviewed more at east.

But it was a stove pipe...CBS only, pretty much. Where's the relentless follow up?

The soldier suicide rate is shocking. It's the missing link as to the traumatic nature of the war. It's a betrayal of those who serve.

Vet's Suicide Rate Stunning

The five-month CBS News probe, based upon a detailed analysis of data obtained from death records from 2004 and 2005, found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 as non-vets.

A recent Veteran Affairs Department estimate says some 5,000 ex-servicemen and women will commit suicide this year, largely as a result of mental health issues, and Keteyian says, "Our numbers are much higher than that, overall."

[pleah]

61. The majority of self-rititious assholes

out there probably think that 'they ain't christian enough to worry about'.
How sad.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

64. Essential reminder

n/t