One Of The Reasons I Think Education Today Sucks

[ThomWV]

My grand children think my use of language is archaic but they don't say so because they have no idea what the word archaic means. They also think I am didactic, another word they could not fathom.

Remember Newspeak?

[Donnachaidh]

1. It's frightening to think that many cannot string a simple sentence together

I drive my local school nuts with my complaints. And then I receive emails from the young teachers that are barely decipherable - and I just bang my head on the wall. It's a bloody nightmare.

[Red Zelda]

2. No doubt teacher was....

a. child of former teacher at same school
b. fluff-headed blond girl from big university
c. young and stupid as opposed to older, wise and more expensive
d. abroad for a semester (doing squat)

[Lorien]

5. Huh? Why would a bad teacher necassarily be blond and female?

do you honestly buy into those bone headed stereotypes? I've met plenty of idiotic MALE teachers in my time, and hair color is no indication at all of a person's IQ (The Clintons are blond; Bush is a brunette). Big universities? Yeah, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Harvard, MIT...those are just a few "big universities" that turn out plenty of competent instructors. And as for going abroad; a former classmate of mine is now a professor of philosophy at Harvard and he has gone abroad for several semesters. He wasn't doing "squat" while he was in Europe; he was taking seminars and teaching at other universities.

School boards need to know exactly what they are getting when they hire a new teacher-young or old, male or female; competence is what counts. If it takes testing to separate the wheat from the chaff, then let's test away.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[Donnachaidh]

40. what?

Did you hit on every negative stereotype? Or did you miss a few?

The *basics* of the three *Rs* have NOT been taught ~well~ in the school system for years. So, that would mean that most (males included) would be lacking in the basics. I don't know where you get your facts from. :eyes:

[fenriswolf]

3. i've noticed a corrilation between

a persons aggressivness and their lack of a vocabulary. If a person cannot coherently express themselves with words they tend to use their fists or ignore their feelings about it altogether.

[slampoet]

7. That's why free speech is important. It cuts down on violence.

[ThomWV]

8. So, do you think its a matter of frustration?

I see the same thing but I'm not sure on the causal end of it. I can see that it would be very frustrating not to be able to express yourself and that could easily enough lead to aggressive behavior. I don't think its the exclusive cause nor do I think it has to be present for violently aggressive behavior to emerge. All from a layman's point of view of course, I have no knowledge, training, or even history of close observation to back up any of it. I am reminded of something though.

I recall reading or hearing somewhere that a theory holds that our minds hold thoughts in some sort of fuzzy ball where all associated thoughts are stored in an apparently random but actually very complex network sort of fog and that when we speak we extract a cognitive string from the fog and translate it into words, either spoken or unconscious. So the idea is that the thoughts are there no matter if we have the words to express them or not. I don't know if its true or not but if it is a person with a limited vocabulary has one great strike against them, they have what might be thought of as a smaller port hole through which to accept incoming information. Frustrating in either direction I would think.

[madinmaryland]

21. ..

It's "Correlation". And I would agree that there probably is some relationship between vocabulary and the ability to express one's self.

:hi:

[DavidDvorkin]

4. First you need to show that it does suck

[Mythsaje]

6. Assumptions...

I work with a lot of kids and, while I occasionally surprise them with the depth of my knowledge about various things, they also surprise me on occasion. Like when the young 16 or 17 y.o. football player walked up to me at work and said "I think the dollar is going to collapse." Out of the blue.

At first I had taken him for another shallow young man, but since then I've realized he's far deeper than I thought. Just the other day we spoke briefly about credit cards, interest rates, and debt. He understands far more than I would have given him credit for.

They speak another language, sometimes, just as we spoke a language different from OUR grandparents...but assumptions are dangerous, and often based on nothing but our own prejudices.

[loser_user]

30. Underestimation is the key

It seems to me every generation bashes the next, and this is the same thing the silent generation did to the Baby Boomers, the Boomers to the Xers, and now the Boomers to the Yers. I plan on waiting about thirty years before passing judgement.

[Dulcinea]

9. What happened to subject-verb agreement?

This is my particular pet peeve.

I get notes all the time from my daughter's preschool that say things like "Please send treat for the holiday party." Or, "Timmy pull Jimmy's name in the drawing." ARGH! It drives me nuts!

[Snarkturian Clone]

11. Thank inclusion.

It's hard for a 3rd grader to learn when there's 2 Emotionally Disturbed kids in the room that could go off at any second and start punching, kicking, and choking you for no reason(the school I work in has a 3rd grade class with 2 such children).

Inclusion laws were passed because deaf, blind, and physically handicapped kids were getting the short end of the stick in school. That was all well and good until some crazy parents started to sue districts saying that kids with mental difficulties deserved inclusion as well. As a result, we have kids that would never have been allowed near a a large group 15 years ago in with the neurotypical children. How can it be good for the class to have a outwardly violent child present? Those children, when adults, will not look back on that time with compassion and say "Aw, that poor kid was disturbed." They are going to look back with hatred and say "My education would have been better if that crazy fuck wasn't in my class."

Inclusion also brings down the level that can be taught in the classroom when schools take it too far and get rid of tracking(tracking refers to placing smart kids with smart kids, average kids with average kids, etc. in the same class). Certain students are required to have modified grades (C=A, D=B, etc.) which also brings down the level of the class.

Teachers have to waste a lot more instructional time handling disruptive and violent students as a result of inclusion.

Don't let any do-gooders tell you how great inclusion is for a student if they are not talking about a physically handicapped child. Inclusion, combined with the horrors of NCLB which have been discussed on this board ad nauseum, are bring down our schools- and soon- society as a whole.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. That took longer than I expected.

It's all the handicapped kids fault.

I disagree with this sentiment in the strongest possible terms.

One in every 150 kids now suffers from Autism. It is incumbent on the school to learn ways of dealing with their behavior, not incumbent on the children to return to some church basement where their parents can teach them. Undoubtedly, if one kicks the handicapped students from the class, test scores will improve. The same can be said for kicking out the ESL students.

Your post suggests to me that you should find another line of work. The children to whom you refer are legally entitled to a free and appropriate public education. You, as an employee of the district, are obliged to provide it.

[Snarkturian Clone]

31. Bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit again.

So we should leave kids in the class that gratuitously injure other students? Is that good for either party?

The emotionally disturbed students need individual attention, the neurotypical students need to be able to come to a safe classroom, the teacher needs to be able to have the best use of the instructional time.


There are plenty of children with all kinds of handicaps that do just fine in a regular classroom. I have no problem with them. I'm talking about violent and overly disruptive children who would do better elsewhere.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. No mention of "where they'd do better" can be found in your op.

The post to which I replied didn't make it at all clear that the education of children with developmental disabilities is even a secondary consideration.

You are the second teacher who I've encountered recently who is promoting this bullshit. I'm really getting sick of teachers who can't or won't do their jobs who blame it on the most vulnerable people in society.

My youngest is a third grader with autism. Thankfully, his teacher is conscientious about her duties as an educator. She and the district understand that they can only fulfill their legal obligations by managing his behavior, at which they are succeeding well. He attends an organized, managed, productive classroom because he lives in a progressive school district, and frankly because they know that I'll insist on it.

I have no doubt that you have no problem with quiet children. The rest of them should just go away... somewhere.

And yes, I am militant about this topic.

[Snarkturian Clone]

33. They would do better

in a school designed to focus on their needs. In an ideal world there would be funding enough for each district to have such a school.

As for the rest of what you said- did you even read my post?

I'm only talking about violent and overly disruptive children here. I was trying to explain that both parties would be helped if those children had their needs met. The neurotypical children would get the attention and education they deserve and the E.D. and disruptive kids will get the attention and education they deserve. Why is this a problem? Maybe it takes witnessing a kid choke another kid half to death for no reason before you start to understand.

Applying one education plan for many different kinds of students doesn't make a lick of sense. Coming up with a different education plan for each kind of different student doesn't make a lick of sense if they're all in the same classroom, nor is there enough time in the day to address all those different needs- especially if 3 students are taking up all your time. It isn't fair to the students. The only solution is 1) tracking 2) separating kids according to learning styles (a la sylvan learning center) 3) All-day small group instruction for kids who cannot handle being in a large group.

How long will it be before a murderer will say "That's what I do. It's in my IEP!"???
(I've had parents say this about their children to forgive unbelievably bad behaviors).

Do me a favor, read my first and second posts in entirety next time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. Hyperbole is your friend.

I did read both posts. In the first, you observed that the attitudes of the neurotypical 3rd graders in your class aren't helped because some "do-gooders" and "crazy parents" forced them to share a classroom with kids with developmental disabilities.

It's reasonable to suggest that their attitudes are harmed to a greater degree when the teacher feels entitled and unashamed to share this attitude with those neurotypical students and their parents... heck to the world at large.

Spare me. A child who chokes another "half to death" wouldn't be in a general ed classroom, and "child with a developmental disability" = "future murderer" really is beyond the pale.

Learning centers and special ed classrooms have their place - primarily as a tool for managing behavior so that "disruptive" kids can return to and productively attend class with their peers.

Their purpose is not to keep the weird kids out of your hair.

If your class has inadequate classroom supports, then it's the district's fault, not the kids.

Inadvertently, the best argument against inclusion can be found in your post - too many teachers are unfit.

[Snarkturian Clone]

41. Nonsense.

I'm sure all this works in your cushy suburban school but you can't apply the same rules to the inner city. We have violent children that are required to be in the general ed classes during everything that is not reading or math. I've witnessed a third grader choke another child for no reason. That same student kicked a kid in the head when he reached down to get his fallen pencil. Is that a safe learning environment? This kid was abused to shit as a toddler and it has obviously effected his behavior. Don't you think he should get individual professional help? You can call me a liar all day, but I've seen all this and more.

Another student at the school, an 8th grader, throws things at teachers and when his mom is informed, she says "That's what he does." When he stole a teacher's laptop (and later smashed it)last year, his mom sued the school for suspending him, since he can only be suspended a max of 10 days. Her excuse was "He just grabs things that are around him and breaks them. That's what he does" So when he's an adult and grabs and breaks things, will his mom be there to say "That's what he does"? The world does not have IEP's.

Our school will not pay for TSS workers anymore so the parents have to foot the bill if they are needed. Most of our parents cannot afford it. On top of that, the school no longer offers to find them the workers, so the parents have to find them themselves. Being that this is one of the highest tax cities in the nation (Philly), you would think that the district can handle it.

The suburban definitions of "disruptive" and "developmentally disabled" do not apply in the city. You have to bring the severity level 10 clicks higher. It's not hyperbole. It's reality. The suburb definition of "disruptive" and "developmentally disabled" would apply to over 60% of my students. I was talking about the severely emotionally disturbed and the severely disruptive- at most 5% of my students.

...and you're right, too many teachers ARE unfit to deal with these kids. But guess what? We are given no help and no information. The IEP does not say what particular disability the kid has so we can't address it directly. It just says "let x be 15 minutes late to class" and "let x go to the bathroom whenever needed" and "never give x homework". That doesn't help the teacher or the student.

As a matter of separate business- Where did I say a developmentally disabled child is a future murderer? I was giving an example of how bad behaviors need to be corrected, not excused away.

...heck to the world at large.

What do you think I'm thinking of? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You're right that ALL the students have a right to get an education-- but I feel that ALL the students have a right to get the most PROPER, EFFICIENT, and SAFE education. It's not efficient to have stuednts at 3 different levels and 8 different learning styles in one class. It's not proper to try to force a kid to be in a large group when you know he/she needs individual attention. It's not safe to have a kid in the room that you know may hurt you at any moment.

Remember what I said in my first post about how the neurotypical kids are going to remember the ED kids. They are not going to look back and say "Aw, that poor soul." They are going to look back in hatred and say "My education would have been better without that kid in my class" This does not help anyone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Inner city, suburban or rural, children are entitled to an education.

Don't you think he should get individual professional help?

Of course. That is what the district hires therapists to do.

So when he's an adult and grabs and breaks things, will his mom be there to say "That's what he does"? The world does not have IEP's.

You misunderstand the purpose of an IEP. It is to identify the deficits an individual child has and to fashion an education plan which mitigates them. It's not meant as a get out of jail free card for the student. Your school is obviously doing a very poor job of managing kids behaviors.

Our school will not pay for TSS workers anymore so the parents have to foot the bill if they are needed.

If those TSS workers (Paraeducators?) are necessary to the appropriate education of those students, then your school is in violation of federal law.

Most of our parents cannot afford it.

The Philadelphia school board should have a refresher course on what "free" means.

On top of that, the school no longer offers to find them the workers, so the parents have to find them themselves. Being that this is one of the highest tax cities in the nation (Philly), you would think that the district can handle it.

Here in Washington, each school district gets $4500 for each student and additional $4500 for each student with an IEP (some of this is paid for with federal funds). If the IEP students in your class aren't getting the benefit of that funding, then your superintendent needs to be reminded of his/her obligation.

The suburban definitions of "disruptive" and "developmentally disabled" do not apply in the city. You have to bring the severity level 10 clicks higher. It's not hyperbole. It's reality. The suburb definition of "disruptive" and "developmentally disabled" would apply to over 60% of my students. I was talking about the severely emotionally disturbed and the severely disruptive- at most 5% of my students.

The "crazy parents" who in 1975 won the right for their children to be educated by the public schools they built, can't distinguish what you meant. Students who pose a violent risk to others can be (and are) routinely expelled - even those with IEP's.

...and you're right, too many teachers ARE unfit to deal with these kids. But guess what? We are given no help and no information. The IEP does not say what particular disability the kid has so we can't address it directly.

Lacking a medical background, the terms "autism" "PDDNOS" or "aspbergers" "bipolar disorder" or "downs syndrome" don't illuminate the job of an educator.

It just says "let x be 15 minutes late to class" and "let x go to the bathroom whenever needed" and "never give x homework". That doesn't help the teacher or the student.

I've sat in on lots of IEP meetings. If that's the extent of the IEP in your district, then it certainly is useless. In my district, an IEP gives tangible deficits and tangible goals for meeting the standards.

As a matter of separate business- Where did I say a developmentally disabled child is a future murderer? I was giving an example of how bad behaviors need to be corrected, not excused away.

Bad behaviors, in the context of people with developmental disabilities, need to be managed, not excused OR corrected. Correction implies that they're conscious and controllable behaviors. If they're conscious and in control of their misbehavior then the issue is not one of mainstreaming those with DD, it's purely a discipline problem.

...heck to the world at large.

bad punctuation on my part. It should have read "...heck, (even) to the world at large". The meaning is that a large part of my concern is that a teacher considers it appropriate to blame the poor education of their neurotypical students on those who can't defend themselves... this blame being expressed not only to the neurotypical kids in the class, their parents, but even to everyone who reads the internets.

I feel exactly how a parent of girls would feel when hearing a teacher blame the declining state of education on those disruptive girls and their crazy parents. Is that unambiguous?

What do you think I'm thinking of? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You're right that ALL the students have a right to get an education-- but I feel that ALL the students have a right to get the most PROPER, EFFICIENT, and SAFE education. It's not efficient to have stuednts at 3 different levels and 8 different learning styles in one class. It's not proper to try to force a kid to be in a large group when you know he/she needs individual attention. It's not safe to have a kid in the room that you know may hurt you at any moment.

Remember what I said in my first post about how the neurotypical kids are going to remember the ED kids. They are not going to look back and say "Aw, that poor soul." They are going to look back in hatred and say "My education would have been better without that kid in my class" This does not help anyone.

The direct answer to your direct question is; "you".

The lives of the students in my district are enriched by diversity. I am old enough that I can remember a time in which the strange kids were "taught" in some institution somewhere or a church basement. Your initial attack was on "inclusion". In fact it was the subject of your OP. If what you're really concerned about is violence in your school, then I'm sure we can find common ground. Your subsequent posts indicate that you perceive "inclusion" and "undisciplined" interchangeably and that the violence in your classroom can be attributed primarily to developmental disabilities.

It's simply scapegoating.

[Snarkturian Clone]

43. fair enough

You're absolutely right: the admin at my school doesn't handle these things well. You should see some of the IEP's- they look like they are written by 1st graders. (At a different school I was at, there was an IEP that said "he good at the science") So maybe it is how my school and others badly manage these issues. I'm willing to concede that.

PS: I am at a charter school, NONE of the members of the admin have ever been a teacher. We do not get the benefits the school district does though our funding is pretty good. We're non-union which basically means the admin, who have never been teachers, can treat us like absolute shit and we keep coming back for more.

On a side note:

Lacking a medical background, the terms "autism" "PDDNOS" or "aspbergers" "bipolar disorder" or "downs syndrome" don't illuminate the job of an educator.

Fair enough, but it would give me SOME idea of what I'm dealing with and something specific that I can research on my own. As far as aspberger's goes- I have a lot of very personal experience with that one. Don't get me started.

The next time anyone ever says that no one on DU has a (mostly) civil discussion- let us point them to this little back and forth we've had here-- probably the most logical discussion I've had on DU.



:toast: :toast:

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. The rights of the developmentally disabled are the topic I feel most passionately about.

If the issue is that you as a teacher don't have the tools/support you need to adequately teach the kids in your care, then I got yer back.

:toast:

[mitchum]

35. Many of those students would do better in a self-contained classroom...

that's my professional opinion

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. I can believe that some might.

"disruptive" is not an adequate determinator of whether a student should be excluded from a general ed classroom.

The behaviors of most disruptive kids can be managed.

That's my professional opinion.

[Feron]

46. I'm autistic and I'm not offended.

While I support inclusion whenever possible, I also realize that mainstreaming isn't always the best solution. It should all be on a case by case basis.

Anyhow I read it more as a rant against shitty policies like No Child Left Behind rather than an attack on children with disabilities.

By the way, I don't suffer from autism. :)

[flashl]

12. They are Alien Life Forces

US Navy calls MySpace kids an "Alien Life Force"

The "Aliens" can comfortably communicate with each other without concern that adults understand what they are saying.

[JHB]

13. How old are they?

You might also encourage their parents to expand their own vocabulary, especially in front of the kids.

[Subdivisions]

14. This from October:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/10/24/notes102407.DTL

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. So, what's the reason?

If you say "One reason...," shouldn't you actually provide an explicit reason?

:shrug:

[Echo In Light]

16. Our education system is largely a tool for indoctrination...

It molds impressionable 'hearts and minds' into abiding the prevailing systems, irrational attitudes of submission to authority, and the necessary mindset required for not questioning/criticizing the system as a whole. As Chomsky notes, from Kindergarten on, it's a "weeding out" system for those who are too independent minded.

[flashl]

19. Studies show teens are opting-out in more ways than one

- school bore them to tears and they believe it is irrelevant as it relates to real life, they opt-out by dropping out
- life is not the way adults protray it, again they opt-out

Teen suicides are soaring yet it is not important enough to talk about, we just want them "educated".

[Echo In Light]

23. As a teenager I dropped out of high school, no questions asked, no regrets...

It was a ridiculous joke back then {late 80s}, and I'm guessing hasn't changed much, short of teachers/administrators placing even greater pressure on kids to "succeed" {translation = be a good, obedient, moderate sell-out who doesn't question corporate "values."}

Luckily we've had very good experiences with our young daughter's teachers/admin thus far, and even they acknowledge the systems pitfalls.

[flashl]

26. I like this ...

Big Bang Theory - John Dobson

You have to have at least graduated high school to believe in the "Big Bang" Theory, because in high school three things happen:

First, you're persuaded the impossible is possible,
Then you become persuaded the possible is probable,
Finally you become persuaded the probable is certain.

It takes at least 3 years for this.
Children will never buy everything came from nothing.

[redqueen]

37. Exactly. That's why PARENTS should be the ones guiding their kids.

Schools teach how to read, write, and do math.

All the enrichment starts at HOME.

[EnviroBat]

17. Watch the movie "Idiocracy".

It's a comedy, but some of the subject matter is based in the reality of our society, and the inevitable direction we're headed.

[slackmaster]

20. Why are you so pedantic?

Are you some kind of pedagogue?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. During my years as a college instructor, I observed that students who didn't

read anything outside of required classwork were less articulate than those who read avidly.

On the first day of spring semester one year early in my teaching career, I asked my students how many books they had read over the six-week winter break. (This was in the context of a language lesson--I asked them in Japanese.) The first student I called on asked, "How do you say 'I did't read any'?" I supplied the phrase and then listened in dismay as fifteen out of the twenty students in the class said that they hadn't read any books.

Four said that they had read one book, a Stephen King or a romance novel.

One said that he had read two. I asked him what they were, and he replied, "Gore Vidal's Lincoln and (whatever Stephen J. Gould's current book was at the time)."

I don't think it's a coincidence that this young man graduated four years later with a 4.0 average.

[stirlingsliver]

24. Doubleplusungood

It's all just doubleplusungood.

Totally.

[Sabriel]

25. Our language is constantly shifting and evolving.

It doesn't make it "bad," necessarily. Hey, "ain't" used to be perfectly acceptable in society.

Yet another "bash teachers and public education" thread. With support like this, who needs Republicans?

[underpants]

27. Is it covered on the test???

NO? then there is no reason to spend time on it. What do you want thinkers or workers??? :grr:


Two tiered education system with the management class (private schools) and the worker bees ( probably you)

[LanternWaste]

28. I don't think the education itself sucks...

I don't think the education itself sucks-- however I do believe that the students simply are not taking advantage of the tools provided them, much as it was when I was in school.

And I'm the first to say that although I was a solid C student, IF I had taken advantage of the educational tools provided me and studied, I easily could've have maintained an A average. I can't in good conscious blame the educational system for that-- I have to blame myself.

But yeah... most of the HS students I encounter for whatever reason seem to have a disproportionately small vocabulary, their conversations seem at time to be only three phrases over and over and over again, 'it's like', 'y'know' and 'whatever'.

[Johonny]

29. Education

is one of those things that seems to ALWAYS be in decline.

[redqueen]

36. Don't you dare blame the schools! Schools teach HOW to read.

PARENTS should mentor their kids in WHAT to read, and how OFTEN.

[Bridget Burke]

39. So give them books for Christmas...

I was raised far from the city bookstores. Pretty far from the nearest library.

But my mother enrolled us in several "book clubs." And bought sets of interesting books. We got one cheapo collection of "classics" before we were old enough. But we grew into them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Fine with me.

I just hope they teach kids that English is a constantly changing and evolving and diverging one, and just because a hundred years ago a bunch of jerks sat down and arbitrarily decided the Queen's English was the only correct English (coincidentally being the dialect that they spoke), that it doesn't mean they weren't completely full of shit.