Not sure why the hostility here toward Christians and this lady who killed the shooter

[Guaranteed]

The lady is, frankly, a hero. I think she ought to be given credit for what she did. The situation must have been insanely intense, and she kept herself composed and had the courage to do what needed to be done. So why the negative reaction to it? The snide commentary...really, people are just missing the point because they want to talk shit about religion, it seems like.

I guess the subject came up, eh, and people will digress.

Look- religious people can say some wacky things, and some have bad, bigoted ideas. Way too often religion is used for immoral purposes.

But I think that fact really has a tendency with the DU crowd to overshadow a couple of related things- not the greatest of which being what this lady did.

The real problem is that hatred of religion- hatred, in general- really blinds people to the good things in the world. In my eyes, the universe is 99.999% benevolent, or even more than that. We just take so much for granted, every day we wake up. And this nasty sniping that comes out any time someone says the word "Christian" on DU- and I am NOT a Christian, by any means-, and then generalized to any form of deism is so sad. Having a personal connection with our "Creator," whatever it may be, whatever gave us the opportunity to be here and complain in the first place, and whatever form that connection may take (within bounds of respect for others) should not be so derided. It's narrow-minded and kind of ignorant.

I just wish everyone, atheists and Christians alike, could stop it with the petty criticisms of each other every given chance. The world is a beautiful place, and I do think that everyone should recognize that, and go with it.

[bluestateguy]

1. People are saying hostile things about her?

That's a shame. She ought to be given a medal.

[Captain Hilts]

2. "Lady?" Perhaps. 'Woman'? Certainly. And she did the right thing. nt

[emilyg]

58. News said she saved a lot of lives.

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. What's your distinction between "Lady" and "Woman"? I'm curious to know.

I was raised to believed that every "woman" was a "lady".

For me, there is no distinction.

[Captain Hilts]

96. All adult female humans are 'women'. A 'lady', is a well-behaved woman...

Being a 'lady' is something you earn, not are born with.

So, the terms go like this: Lady - gentleman

Woman - man.

The terms 'ladies' and 'mens' are not comparable.

[piedmont]

116. Seems to have been "well-behaved" on Sunday. nt

[provis99]

3. you missed the irony in your own post

Talking about how great the world is when commenting on a lady killing a nut in a church.

[Guaranteed]

4. There's a lot more out there than what that guy did. nt

[Sanctified]

5. I know, it's getting sickening. I am not a deeply religious person but

I do get offended when people think it's ok to act like a bunch bigots just because they disagree with a religion.

[Arugula Latte]

6. We "secularists" are regularly denounced by public figures (Mitt Romney is the latest)

Apparently, we aren't deserving of freedom, according to him.

We get tired of Christians in the public sphere telling us to shut up, that we don't count as Americans.

A lot of the hostility here stems from that.

Additionally, it seems that the sweeping concept of "Faith" is supposed to allow people to be considered sane, no matter what irrational, anti-science, homophobic, sexist or racist notion they embrace, because "Faith" is supposedly beyond criticism.

It.Gets.Old.

[KitchenWitch]

7. We Pagans get awfully sick of the superiority of "Jesus" too.

As if my faith in the Earth is somehow not as sacred and holy is their faith in the sky daddy.

[laconicsax]

31. It isn't a sky daddy

It's a sky daddy-son-ghost that used to be three separate gods, but became 'three gods that are really one god, but are still three separate gods' and isn't even a requisite of faith anymore so long as you believe in at least one of them depending on which sect you listen to.

But hey, at least the sky daddy-son-ghost didn't read the Gospels to their respective authors out of a hat with magic glasses and a seer stone--that would be crazy.

[KitchenWitch]

33. OMG - Can I convert now?

:rofl:

[MichaelHarris]

57. Isn't it

Son of Sky Daddy? I own the rights to that movie title.

[mzmolly]

68. Is this how we describe the beliefs of Martin Luther King these days?

How very "tolerant" of us.

[terisan]

106. Note that King's Christianity was Nonviolent. He taught love/forgive enemies, and killed no one.

There is a false christianity that preaches hate, killing, and damning of others. It peoples armies, it rejoices in bombing. It does not follow the Two Commandments-which Christ said comprised All that we need to know and do.

[mzmolly]

162. My point is that a belief in God is being denegraded here.

Read the post I responded to. None of us know enough about the woman in question to contrast her specific beliefs to another.

[Arugula Latte]

205. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Ayatollah Khomeini

and Torquemada and George W. Bush also believe/d in a god.

"Faith" doesn't necessarily = "good"

[mzmolly]

212. I have asserted the same thing.

"Faith" doesn't necessarily = "good" Nor is faith always "bad."

[coalition_unwilling]

176. And don't forget the virgin birth. Pardon my irreverance, but I

wish I could have been a bug on the wall when Mary dropped that little bombshell on Joseph.

[Critters2]

37. That stings a little, KW.

If I've ever made fun of your faith, I apologize.

[Midlodemocrat]

146. I would imagine that that would be hurtful.

I don't think I've ever done that, and I don't intend to.

Beliefs are very, very personal and none of them should be derided.

[Guaranteed]

9. Well, that's bullshit too.

Bad ideas are bad ideas.

It doesn't change anything about the appreciation that we should have for the chance to even be here, though.

[DesertFlower]

13. agreed. nt

[mzmolly]

41. "irrational, anti-science, homophobic, sexist or racist notions" should

be challenged no matter what the context. However a belief in a spiritual realm should be respected if it the context is one of tolerance and acceptance.

[Guaranteed]

47. Bingo. nt

[Goblinmonger]

137. But if it comes into the public sphere it is fair game

Keep it to yourself and I'm fine. Start bringing it into government and we have a problem. Even if it is the "feel good" Christianity you speak of. I don't want any of it pushed on me through government and that is happening in our creeping theocracy. As Kate Chopin so elaquently put it, "There would be no powerful will bending hers in that blind persistence with which men and women believe they ahve a right to impose a private will upon a fellow-creature. A kind intention or a cruel intention made the act seem no less a crime as she looked upon it in that brief moment of illumination."

[mzmolly]

168. This OP wasn't about bringing religion into the

Government.

[nebenaube]

50. delete posted in wrong place...

[Fading Captain]

117. Link Please?

I have to see this ...

[FredScuttle]

8. I'm supposed to applaud "Gunfight At The O.K. Cathedral"?

Jesus must be so proud...one of his lambs shot that fucker dead! :eyes:

[Mojorabbit]

10. You aren't

suggesting she should have just stood back and let it hapen are you?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coalition_unwilling]

179. Being a "hero" doesn't mean killing someone, at least in Christian

theology, except maybe in the Tim LeHaye Christian Dominionist end-times version of that theology. A "Christian hero" would have offered herself in place of one of the shooter's intended victims. Or am I missing something here?

[Mythsaje]

11. What offends me

are the fools who say "God protected me" when others are dying, or dead. It's egocentric and disrespectful and, frankly, makes no sense to me.

And I'm not an atheist. Something else entirely.

[Guaranteed]

16. Understood- it sounds like pride.

But by the same rationale it seems a bit presumptuous for a person to expect nothing bad to happen to them, ever, and then get angry when something does, to them or someone else.

We're all very small, and cursed with having just enough knowledge to understand our own fate, and that of others we care about, but not enough to understand why our fate is what it is.

It can be frustrating.

[MedleyMisty]

91. I understand why my "fate" is what it is

Pure random probability and the choices and actions of myself and others. And I don't mean the neocon social Darwinist definion of "choice" and "personal responsibility" where you can be born to poor parents and magically become a billionaire by the time you're 40 and you are obviously a horrible person if you're not, but just choices and actions that are influenced by what random probability brings your way and that have random unpredictable effects.

I like to think of existence as a probability wave that is constantly being collapsed by many billions of observers. I only dabble in physics so I'm sorry if the terminology isn't perfect but hopefully you get the idea.

Okay, like, my father died of a heart attack when I had just turned seven. I didn't think that some supernatural being had taken him away from me - but then I had read the Children's Bible and it gave me this instinctual wrong feeling and then at six I learned about dinosaurs and compared that to the Genesis creation myth and that was it for me - atheist4lyfe, dude.

I stood at his casket and thought, "Daddy, why did you smoke?" I'd heard that the autopsy showed that he was beginning to develop emphysema and I was pretty sure that wouldn't have helped matters.

I'm not saying it was his fault - he grew up in rural North Carolina in the forties and fifties. I imagine that there wasn't that many people who didn't smoke around here back then and there wasn't as much knowledge about the health problems caused by smoking. And he was the coolest person who ever existed with the possible exception of my husband. But still - the heart attack was a natural occurence with many random events and decisions influenced by random events preceding it. It wasn't a reward or a punishment for anything and no one deserved it and it wasn't a blessing in disguise and it wasn't some supernatural being calling my father home and it had no greater meaning. It was just a random heart attack.

I don't get the need for some greater meaning. It's enough for me to look at the sky and the trees and the grass. Existence is beautiful and good and true without having to add anything to it. Even in the bleak and dark and nasty days of working at Arby's, there were moments of beauty and goodness and truth.

And there was always love, which got me through it.

I think that maybe religious people just need to personify love for some reason. From all my research on moral development and the history of child abuse, I think that a lot of us do need sky daddies because our real parents failed us. Random probability has been very kind to me in that department - good genes and good nurturing, and then pretty much the instant I stepped out of the nest I found my soulmate.

I guess I should be more understanding of people for whom such love was not in the cards.

I will admit that lately I've been thinking that my hatred of humans for being so selfish and cruel and ignorant and nasty is sort of like neocons blaming people for being born to financially poor parents. People can't really help being born to emotionally poor parents either.

Sorry for going on so long - I think by writing, and I've done a lot of thinking.

So - from now on I will try to understand the need for religion more as opposed to just dismissing it. Like I was thinking about the woman in the situation that inspired the thread, and maybe along the way someone convinced her that she didn't have strength inside herself so when she needed strength she had to think that it was God giving it to her to be able to find it.

And there's incredible child abuse behind fundamentalism, I think. And okay, so yeah, probably the general attitude of the public towards them just makes it worse.

Check this link out.

http://www.lucifereffect.com/guide.htm

In the list about how to reverse the process - I've always had trouble with number 7. I guess - maybe this is what it's like for people born into money and why they have such a problem understanding poverty? I think I was born into emotional and mental wealth and as a result have to work hard to understand mental and emotional poverty. But I think I've made a lot of progress tonight, and will hopefully continue to make progress.

When I was nine I read all the books in the local library about the Holocaust, and that created a philosophy that's stayed with me since but that I've only recently been able to articulate - we need to constantly look in the mirror and be aware of the evil inside ourselves as well as the good, or the evil will overtake us. Thank you for the opportunity to confront my evil.

[Guaranteed]

93. I have to disagree with a number of your theories.

#1- "Random probability" is not an explanation. Randomness is the absence of explanation. May as well call it God.

#2- Belief in a higher power doesn't mean that the believer's parents were "emotionally poor." I think that's a seriously flawed assertion. It takes emotional strength to not get caught up in bitterness when the world doesn't treat someone right. Weakness is getting angry and disavowing your surroundings.

#3- Belief in a higher power doesn't mean that someone hasn't felt or doesn't have love. In fact, it's a recognition that not just other people but the world itself loves and nurtures.

[stranger81]

133. I think you understood what they mean perfectly, Mythsaje . . . .

According to the "health and wealth" gospel taught at New Life, God "protects" them and ignores the entire continent of Africa, for instance, because God likes them better. And God likes shiny, well-scrubbed white people better. Preferably wealthy. It's the perfect bastardization of a religion.

Note: these remarks are not intended to reflect on the Christian left -- Jim Wallis, Cornel West, Tony Campolo, etc -- would never attend a "church" like New Life, haul guns to Sunday School with them, or praise the baby Jesus for helping them kill people. So take your bigotry refrain elsewhere.

[Mythsaje]

150. Now it's bigotry to disdain religion?

Nice to know.

[stranger81]

217. No, should have clarified -- that last bit was certainly not directed at you,

but rather at the folks here who think any criticism of this woman amounts to bigotry against christianity. That's ridiculous.

[Mythsaje]

245. Ah, gotcha.

Humility is all well and good, when it's sincere. But false humility is another kind of egotism. "I was scared to death, but I did what I needed to do," can be real. "I was scared to death, but God reached in and wiggled his fingers in my brain and I became Dirty Harry," is a bit spooky to contemplate.

[opiate69]

12. It's not her actions,

but rather her abhorrently offensive assertion that God intervened on her behalf. Were I a member of the Works family, I'd be a more than a little affronted that God didn't deign to intervene a few minutes sooner.

[blonndee]

21. Hear, hear!

I'm all for defending oneself (and my past posts should bear that out) but the whole "God was with me" bullshit" grates, to say the LEAST.

[opiate69]

38. Thanks.. the disconnect is so obvious, yet so many simply don't see it..

[Union Thug]

35. Spot on - that is precisely why I am so fed up with this thing...

God was on her side, but decided 'He' wasn't on the side of those killed? It's irrational, delusional and egocentric.

[opiate69]

43. prezactly..

[mzmolly]

46. If you were a member of the Works family and believed in "God"

you'd feel that your relative was at peace now.

The woman said what she believed happened, should we deny her the right to her feelings on the matter?

[Goblinmonger]

138. She has the right to her feelings

I have the right to call her an asshole for thinking that SHE was the one that god wanted to spare while god obviously had a hard on for the deaths of the others.

Or doesn't my right to have feelings about her feelings matter?

[mzmolly]

164. I don't give a shit if you call her an asshole or not.

The OP was concerned about critiquing others beliefs. Or doesn't deriving the context of the OP matter?

[Goblinmonger]

200. Let me make it more clear, then

She is an asshole because of her beliefs.

[mzmolly]

209. Just like your three Priest friends?

"Birds of a feather," as they say...

[Goblinmonger]

222. Not in the least

Their faith does not make them assholes. I have no problem distinguishing between people who's faith makes them an asshole (Falwell, Robertson, et al) and those whose faith does not. Apparently that is not so easy for you. I make a comment about a person who is an asshole because of their religious faith and YOU automatically think I am speaking of all Christians which I am not.

Maybe beating your little cliche a bit will help make it clear:

The priests that are good friends of mine = doves
The asshole woman in the OP = hawk

Those ARE NOT birds of a feather. You look at them both and see birds. I do not. Yet I am the one getting lambasted as bigotted and a Christian hater. Amazing.

[mzmolly]

227. I don't know how anyone can judge the bird in question

without knowing more about what color feathers she has. ;) What she espoused is not uncommon among those who "believe" regardless of stripe. However, I am glad to know that you also make a distinction between the Dobson's and the Mother Teresa's of the world. I do hope you'll be more apparent in that regard going forward.

Peace

[Goblinmonger]

228. I'll give you that much

but the fact that she attends Ted Haggard's old church doesn't shine a very positive light on her.

Been fun! and interesting!

Peace

[blondeatlast]

103. Precisely. It's the same as a football team praying to Him

before a game.

I believe He exists in some form--but I don't believe He takes sides...

[midlife_mo_Jo]

218. Most sports players pray to do their best and not get injured

At least most sports players that I know.

[slackmaster]

109. Why get yourself worked up over something you have no control over?

What harm does someone else's religious belief bring to you?

I care only about results.

[libbygurl]

114. Thank you! It's the egocentricity of such claims to God that irks me. nt

[RetroLounge]

163. ...

:applause:

RL

[opiate69]

172. ...

:hi:

Hi, Retro! Fancy seeing you 'round here!

[RetroLounge]

173. I wade in here sometimes...

:hi:

RL

edited for freudian slip :rofl:

[opiate69]

175. LOL.. Freudian slip?

I wade in her sometimes...

:P

[RetroLounge]

189. Oops

:rofl:

RL

[Harper_is_Bush]

14. Two things to you: 1. don't generalize. 2. direct your chastising better

1.
I saw the reaction you're talking about, but it was very limited.

Your chastising doesn't clarify that fact. You talk about "here" without specifying the extent of the behavior.

2.
It would be better to respond to those folks directly when they make those comments, instead of sending out a generalized message to us all.

[Guaranteed]

18. I'm responding to a couple of rather long threads with many, many

posters chiming in with negativity and snark.

[Harper_is_Bush]

23. Well hey, I guess DU'ers all just hate Christians. Maybe you should have linked those threads...

Did you deal with those posters at the time?

You post this seemingly generalized accusation, which would be lovely fodder ad FR, without any references.

It just seems like you're looking for attention and not interested in spending any energy in formulating a thoughtful response to something you're obviously concerned with.

[Guaranteed]

24. There were a lot of DUers being reasonable, as well.

This post was not uncalled for, though.

[Harper_is_Bush]

29. Yeah, your post was uncalled for. n/t

[Guaranteed]

32. No, it really wasn't. I'm even seeing it IN this thread. nt

[AlCzervik]

15. this is what i think and please feel free to flame away--ok?

"God guided my hand" and how i interpret a statement like that "God helped me kill someone, it was really God and not me" now obviously she was defending people and she was not a Joe Horn. It puts the onus on God.

[Harper_is_Bush]

26. So what?

Like, really. So fucking what?

What is your point?

[AlCzervik]

28. i made my point.

like ok and if you like don't get so what?

[Harper_is_Bush]

30. No, you didn't.

Not at all.

[Goblinmonger]

141. Why didn't god step in

BEFORE crazy fuckhead started killing people. Sounds like god is a step of two behind. Or maybe good didn't have fuckall to do with any of it.

[The Straight Story]

165. But god didn't help her kill him, he shot himself

:)

[ecstatic]

17. I saw her... and... I liked her

She's brave, pretty, calm... sincere and passionate.

It doesn't matter what her religion or source of inspiration is. Everyone has some form of a "higher power" or source of strength. She is well in tune with hers, as she acted with the type of bravery that most DUers and people in general will never understand (luckily).

[rwheeler31]

25. She had a gun ,she used it, nuff said for the rightwing.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

81. wow

"She's brave, pretty, calm... sincere and passionate."

She's also religiously insane and in all probability a hateful, homophobic, straight-ticket Republican voting bigot. But she sure is purdy. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

83. Dr. King wasn't

"a hateful, homophobic, straight-ticket Republican voting bigot" and he believed in "God." We don't know what this woman believes. Many Christian Church going folk are actually liberals.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

86. Good for Dr. King!

May I ask what the fuck a dead Reverend has to do with my above post? If you're referring to my screen name, I can assure you it has nothing to do with MLK. So you fail in that regard, but don't quit your day job.

BTW, I doubt too many of these "Christian Church going folk" are actually liberals. So far you're 0-2.

[mzmolly]

87. I'm sorry if the point of my post wasn't apparent to you.

May I ask "what the fuck" the remarks made by the person in question had to do with "hateful, homophobic, straight-ticket Republican voting bigots?" Your assumption that she's a bigot without proof, is > bigoted.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

88. Judging by the church she attends

I can only assume what I wrote to be true. The members of this "church" have corrupted and polluted Colorado politics for a long time. A person with a social conscience and the least bit of political awareness can't help but view these people with suspicion.

I guess you can file this event under "chickens coming home to roost".

[mzmolly]

89. I admit to not knowing the background of this Church. But upon gazing at the picture of the

young women who perished, I can't help but feel incredible sadness. It appears as though they tried to make a difference in the lives of others?




Peace. I'm out for the night.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

92. Not the missionary in Arvada,

the church in the Springs. I have spent time in Colorado and that church along with Focus on the Family has made life miserable for Democrats(elected, non-elected) for quite a while now.

Notice how most of the negative reactions on this subject are from Coloradans.

[mzmolly]

158. I despise James Dobson with a deep passion.

Focus on the Familly makes me want to vomit. This group uses "God" to promote hate and bigotry. That's when I have a problem with the "God" stuff. ;)

[Goblinmonger]

142. So YOUR assumptions are not important

Do you think perhaps these nice white people are out there trying to convert the brown people? That has happened before with splendid results. Maybe they are doing good. Maybe not. Stop acting like YOU know while bitching that others don't.

[mzmolly]

157. MY assumptions are as important as YOURS.

However, I note that my assumptions are just that, assumptions.

On second thought, I'm sure the murdered girls were just hateful bigots who got their just deserts. :sarcasm:

[stranger81]

129. sorry, but I don't remember ever hearing about Dr. King carrying

weapons to church services and giving God the "glory" for the folks he shot in church.

What a wildly inappropriate analogy. MLK = fundies who carry firearms to church, and use them?

[mzmolly]

160. I wasn't comparing him to the so called shooter. I was comparing him to others who

believe in God or "sky daddy's" as it were.

[coalition_unwilling]

216. If they're not closeted gays -n/t

[Evoman]

94. I don't have any form of a "higher power" or source of strength other than myself.

[MADem]

19. I am not 'hostile' towards religion. I think they're con games, designed to separate people from

cash, and they're led by con men (men, mostly) who hector people about what an invisible man in the sky is gonna do to them if a) they don't pony up the dough, and b) they don't exhibit 'appropriate' behavior, be it social, contributory or what-have-you, demanded by the club.

Two points, though:

First: If religions don't bother me, I won't bother them. Don't knock on my door, don't pester me when I ask you, politely, to stop, and don't reproach me for any legal behavior I indulge in simply because your particular brand of bullshit doesn't like it.

Second: Any person who shoots a crazy ass fucker who is shooting at other people is a hero.

That has nothing to do with the fact that religions are con games, and a lot of them have incredibly idiotic premises behind them that are unbelievable in the extreme. That's just a view, and that isn't "hostile." If hostility is defined as not caring for religions, than EVERYONE, pretty much, is hostile towards some religion or another, be it the Rastaferians, Pastaferians, Obeah and Santeria crowd, the peyote bunch, or the Magic Underwear club. Dig deeply enough, and any "person of faith" will find at least one where they do a little looking down their nose, even if they do it behind closed doors.

[1932]

20. No doubt she saved lives, but it's arrogant to say "god chose me"

[oscarmitre]

95. She's an ex-cop.

She should be thanking her trainers, they taught her well, she learned well, she did well.

[slackmaster]

110. And her attitude hurts you?

How?

[1932]

240. It doesn't. But I think I'm allowed to make a comment on her theology.

By saying you're "chosen by god" you're ranking yourself up there with Jesus and Moses. And, maybe we're all chosen by god for something, but we don't go around saying, "I did that because I was chosen by god."

[MedleyMisty]

27. I don't hate religion

But it's not some sancrosanct idea that can't be criticized. And I really don't see that many personal attacks on religious people here. I don't know - I have a lot of obnoxious trolls on ignore, so maybe that's why. But really, saying that religion is stupid and wacky is not the same thing as saying that every single person ever who has or had any sort of interest in religion is stupid and wacky. Why is it so hard to see the difference between an idea and the people who subscribe to that idea?

I didn't like the Goonies. Does that mean I hate everyone who did like the Goonies? I don't think so.

And yes, the world is a beautiful place. And it'd be even more beautiful without the hatred and oppression that religion has brought to it.

[terisan]

34. Christ and early christians never killed, they sacrificed themselves. Were they crazy or Christians.

The presence of armed guards in christian churches seems to me to be a contradiction.

Much of modern Christianity glorifies killing and encourages killing. It glorifies hatred. It glorifies the Old Testament and ignores the commandments of Jesus (love god and love your neighbor as yourself & everyone is your neighbor). It loves the whacky book of Revelation-with the promise of rivers running in blood rather than those 4 simple gospels which are the only books which purport to quote the living jesus. It glorifies greed, waste, and encourages hatred of other people.

People have confused Church with god. God is neither a church nor a book. Preachers are not God, nor are priests. A book -even the bible is not god and worshipping a book is no different from worshipping a golden calf.

I have been thinking that much of modern-day christianity it is not Christianity at all. It takes the name and distorts the belief. It may well be the distortions of Satan.

Incidentally Churches did not exist in the time of Christ, only synagogues. As far as I am concerned a church is a gathering of people-it can be on a street corner, or in a forest. These megachurches with their light and sound systems and their preacher-stars are really entertaiment palaces--theaters.Most of us probably do not have the failth or the courage of the Christ or the early Christians-but let's not forget when they were like.

if people want to defend themselves with firearms or defend others. I do not object to their defending themselves and others. I think this women was about saving lives. This young man-raised evangelical Christian-wanted to be a missionary but he needed to be ministered to-maybe the mega churches shoud dump the theatrics and the politics and the tax ememptions for their entertainments and try practicing the cardinal works of mercy instead.

Maybe it is time to take the next step and consider how the gospel of Jesus may call upon us to prevent these situations from occuring and call upon us --no matter how difficult-to love and pray for this deranged man and the other sad and angry souls throughout our land.

[Critters2]

36. Thank you. I couldn't have said it better. nt

[undergroundpanther]

78. The early Christians were GNOSTICS

They hated this world,they saw it as corrupt to the core and they had no love for the thing that made this world and rules it as evil.They saw life as being forced into a flesh prison.Death is a good thing to a gnostic. It is a chance to escape and go back to your source..And I agree with them. I look forward to escaping this squalid life sometime.Gnostics wrote the kingdom of heaven is within you..So if a bunch of fascist ass hats capture me to kill me,because I was a threat to the state like what happened to the ANTI-AUTHORITARIAN Gnostics( gnostics were the real early Christians)in Rome, would I be sacrificing myself? No, not really..I would be killing this flesh cage. I would be leaving this fucking dirt ball behind and because I have no love for this world,I don't fear death.But while I am here,yeah I do care about the other spirits trapped here,hurting like me.I am more than willing to give,help them,and do this until my time comes. I try to help others in ways that count in real life ,and what I think about the unknown stays in my head when I help.I am not here in this thread in that function,however.. Gnostics that's what the earliest christians were and to them,life on this world is prison,the human condition is torment. And it is.Life strongest feeds on the weakest and this is the way of this world and I hate it.
Jesus was a suicide by cop.Read the Gospel of Judas.
Read Nag Hammadi,Trimorphic Protenoia,Gospel of Thomas the Contender,the modern bible is dead,because the authoritarians in Rome edited out the Gnosis.

[Sanctified]

90. Can you give me some examples on how early Christians sacrificed themselves?

[endarkenment]

99. Why do the atheists have to do the research?

"According to St. Basil, forty soldiers who had openly confessed themselves Christians were condemned by the prefect to be exposed naked upon a frozen pond near Sebaste on a bitterly cold night, that they might freeze to death. Among the confessors, one yielded and, leaving his companions, sought the warm baths near the lake which had been prepared for any who might prove inconstant. One of the guards set to keep watch over the martyrs beheld at this moment a supernatural brilliancy overshadowing them and at once proclaimed himself a Christian, threw off his garments, and placed himself beside the thirty-nine soldiers of Christ. Thus the number of forty remained complete. At daybreak, the stiffened bodies of the confessors, which still showed signs of life, were burned and the ashes cast into a river. The Christians, however, collected the precious remains, and the relics were distributed throughout many cities; in this way the veneration paid to the Forty Martyrs became widespread, and numerous churches were erected in their honour."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Martyrs_of_Sebaste

Is google broken for you? Do you not understand your own religion or its history?

[terisan]

105. So many who claim Christianity know nothing about it. They have let themselves be led by false

prophets who promise them earthy rewards for condemning others.

[Sanctified]

115. So 40 Christians were sentenced to death by their Government and they took the punishment.

There are many Christians today who are sentenced to death by their Government and they take the punishment. This is not an example on why a Christian should just up and die because some crazy mutherfucker decided to go ape and shoot them.

[endarkenment]

118. You can't even read very well.

The 40 could opt out of their faith at any time. One did, and was replaced by one of his guards who converted on the spot.

[Sanctified]

119. My point is they were sentenced by a Government not some crazy ass individual.

This is not an example of Christians dying instead of performing self defense.

[endarkenment]

124. That would be your new revised point.

Here is your original point:
"Can you give me some examples on how early Christians sacrificed themselves?"

The example, one of many, has been given. Martyrdom is part of the history of the religion.

[Sanctified]

126. Which was in response to someone who said,

"Christ and early christians never killed, they sacrificed themselves. Were they crazy or Christians."

"The presence of armed guards in christian churches seems to me to be a contradiction."

Which implied to me that the poster believed these Christians should have died instead of defending themselves.

[endarkenment]

127. Which is exactly in the tradition of the early church.

You simply are (willfully now it seems) ignorant of that history. I cited one of the many examples of early christians putting this into practice and you are simply trying to weasel out of your own blunder. Give it a rest.

[Sanctified]

134. Again you Gave an Example of Christians being Executed by a Government

Not being killed for lack of self defense.

[Leopolds Ghost]

236. Execution is a form of murder.

The fact that it is done by a government is immaterial.

Christianity taught me this.

You want to follow Leviticus, convert to Judaism (or Islam) instead.

Although I hesitate to suspect a majority of practicing Jews agree
that all forms of killing are evil, regardless what the law of the
Levites said.

[Leopolds Ghost]

234. Is there a distinction?

Atheism who believe in self defense and the death penalty unfettered by a system of universal ethics (but fettered by pocketbook issues.) Fascinating.

[terisan]

104. arrested by Romans to be tortured and killed .Let themselves be martyred for their faith. did not

resist evil and did not renounce faith. They were pacifists and witnessed their faith by example-how they lived and died.

Paul, if you remember was a soldier who persecuted before he put down his sword. It was long after that some Christians abandoned peace, sought worldly power, peopled armies, and began persecuting others.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

219. They died because they confessed Jesus as Lord, and wouldn't recant

That's why they died.

These people in Colorado were being murdered, and the woman came to their aide. Christianity does not demand pacifism. We are not to murder - which is different from killing in self defense or in the defense of those weaker than oneself.

And Paul put down the sword because he was persecuting Christians, something he couldn't exactly do once he became a Christian himself!

[terisan]

225. The early christians did not raise the sword to prevent their arrest. they let themselves be taken

love, forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Early Christians could have raised the sword in their own defense to avoid arrest, guard their meetings from soldiers, madmen, angry killers, other sects attempting to kill them. Did they?

Go in Peace was their by-word. They believed in the faith.

I said that I had no problem with her defending herself or others .... but I remember that Christ had no if, and , or buts, no asterisks attached to not killing. Indeed when Peter (we are told) raised a blade to cut off the ear of a soldier---what did Christ do?
Christ of the Gospels killed no one nor did he counsel killing in any form at any time. He taught peace, forgiveness, and loving ones enemy. rather than kill those who were about to harm them.

Your personal interpretation of Christianity may not demand pacifism but I see nothing in the Jesus of the Gospels that celebrates the killing of or violence toward any person or even the raising of an army for self protection.Pacifism is often misunderstood; it is a way of life that build peace and serves to prevent the spiraling down to situations where people see no choice but violence and killing.

Christ raised no army; his disciples were not soldiers. Modern churches have too often twisted the message of peace, love, and forgiveness into participating,condoning and encouraging not just the killer at the doorr but the killing of women and children. and peaceful people who have never attacked them. There are, by the account of the CDC over a million people dead in Iraq---why? because a lot of "christians" decided to follow a warmonger instead of the prince of peace. Do you really thing the women and children of Iraq were a threat to you or me? What did these churches counsel people to do. Many of them urged murder.

The armed guards in mega churches remind me of the David Koresh compound and his armageddon obsession.

A church is not a huge building. it is a gathering of people. Christ specifically mentions 2 and 3 in my name. What if this massive church cared for their (probably deranged ) fellow christian, got his family to lock up or destroy their weapons for destroying human beings, obtained l help for their deranged one? ......focused on their brother and his torment rather than hiring armed guards and continuing to spend money on massive structures. I suggest that the dead might still be alive and the shooter might have had no access to guns.

Christ was about healing the sick, not running from them.

According to JC love your neighbor as yourself, everyone is your neighbor.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

248. Look, I'm no fan of this kind of church, either

But most Christians who believe in Jesus Christ as the third person of the trinity, also get wisdom and guidance from the entire bible, believing that the ENTIRE CANON in the bible is the inspired word of God. This is not my "personal" interpretation. Jesus did not come to abolish everything that came before; he came to fullfill it.

Of course, Christ raised no army! That was not his purpose. His purpose was to teach and sacrifice.
I believe in self defense, defense on behalf of others, and a just war theory.

And the current war is NOT just....not in the least, but I'm not here to discuss the war.

Or to put it another way, if I'm being raped, you can be DAMN sure that my husband would use lethal force to protect me, if necessary.

I suppose in your view, he's not only suppose to watch, he's suppose to turn over his eldest daughter, as well.

[terisan]

250. I am pointing out that Jesus was non-violent and that the path to that Christ-like life

consists in building the peace daily so that the crisis does not occur. Many people do not want to led a Christ-like life. That is their choice

If you want to follow some of the commands of Jesus but not others that is your prerogative. Lots of people-including me-find Love your neighbor as yourself to be difficult to follow, particularly since he pointed out that neighbor means everyone. Resist not evil is also tough-I suspect Gore followed that one in Election 2000.

As I pointed out in my previous posts, I have no problem with the church's armed guard using violence to shoot the attacker and protect herself and others. She was free to make that decision, and crisis leaves little room for building peace.

If we build weapons instead of treatment centers, war machines instead of performing the cardinal works of mercy, if we study war instead of peace---we will increase the likelihood of violence and when it comes we will use what we have and what we know.

In the case of this young man-many church people who knew him tried to help--but they did not seem to have what they needed to help him to a different path. Churches are often eager to help others but do not recognize the Christ at the doorstep or how to minister to these difficult people.

Each of us makes choices by the minute in how we live. There has been many a saint who has chosen to sacrifice him or herself for others. I choose to not diminish their christ-like lives even though I may not have their faith or the strength of their belief.

If you believe it was Christ's purpose to sacrifice but not yours-that is your prerogative and I respect it.
I notice that in teaching he never taught war, and never taught violence, and that many who have chosen to follow his peace and love and forgiveness teachings met with success in achieving freedom-M LKing and civil rights workers, Gandhi and Indians, Mendela and South Africans.

I do belief that each person interprets the bible in his or her own way, even if they choose that way because they were taught it by a particular christian faith or sect. Koresh's followers, except for the children, were free to follow him and not merely victims of the gun-toting, Revelations-obsessed preacher.

I don not believe that any church, religion, or individual owns God, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit (formerly referred to as the holy ghost).

Please don't mis characterize my views with suppositions that I think you should let you hub and allow someone to rape you. Far from it. However I do believe that by following the 2 commandments of Jesus in our daily lives we can minimize those occurrences of rape.

As for the bible I believe the history of its emergence a the holy book or word of god as it was taught to me in elementary school. It was compiled by a group of men at councils. I reject some of the dyspeptic silliness of the old testament and calls to murder for trivial reason (Leviticus) and I note the contradictions, and the differing versions of Creation.

I also note similarities to other ancient texts which themselves have been regarded as myths or historical treatises. I personally think that to call it all the word of god is insulting to god and limiting the concept of god. (Humans, I think, like to cut god down to their size by defining their pettiness and fears as god's word). It was a group of men who decreed it to be the word of god.

I like the rabbinical tradition which constantly reinterprets these old testament stories in the light and wisdom of new eras.

Altogether, I like to believe in the those 2 commandments of Jesus (which he said is all we need to know and follow) even if I find them mysterious and difficult.

[fujiyama]

39. I admire what she did

but at the same time, I agree that her comments about crediting God are kind of silly given the terrible circumstances.

But religious people say things many of us non religious people find idiotic after something traumatic happens.

I don't think it's worth arguing about. I'm more disgusted and shocked by the few posters that attacked WHAT she did. Committing acts of violence, perhaps even KILLING someone in certain situations is ABSOLUTELY necessary, especially to stop madmen like the shooter.

[QC]

40. Some seem disappointed that more weren't murdered. n/t

[RetroLounge]

167. Like who?

Your assertion is bullshit.

RL

[QC]

243. The ones who pretend to be mortified

that a church had security guards.

If not for this guard, the body count would most likely be much higher. I'm glad she was there and did what she did.

[RetroLounge]

261. Yes, me too.

But God didn't do shit, and now apparently she did less than she claimed.

I believe it's her comments that are bullshit, not what she did.

Of course, any church that needs armed guard because of the HUGE amount of money ashould be paying taxes.

RL

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

244. It sure is.

Can't say I feel a lot of sympathy for the members of "New Life". After all they created this monster and looked the other way when he needed help. I don't wish this on anybody but I'm not going to overlook certain uncomfortable truths so we can feel good about Sunday's events. However, certain posters will look for anything to take offense to, if they can't find it they'll just make shit up.

QC: The reason "churches" like these have armed guards is because of the money that goes through the place(it's more like a casino), and all the meth addicts that attend these services.

Oh yeah, this woman is as fake as a $3 bill and a deranged psychopath to boot. Loonier than a friggin' toon.

[spoony]

259. Your denial is bullshit

I've seen numerous posters now who have made those sorts of comments. At least one of them is in this thread.

[RetroLounge]

260. 1 out 250 posts?

You poor put-upon christian minority...

Grow up.

RL

[mzmolly]

42. Nice post BGL.

:toast:

[eleny]

44. Her god-god-god assertions had me puke flying disgusted

Did you watch her make her statement in it's entirety this afternoon? I did. Every other sentence was about her and god and her again. It was crystal clear to me that she used that press conference to push her favorite fundy fantasies.

Call it hostility or call it a fudge mountain with chocolate sauce - I don't care.

[mzmolly]

48. Why shouldn't she share her beliefs about what happened at a press conference?

The majority of Americans believe in "God" and will likely express that belief in trying times.

[opiate69]

51. Because her beliefs are horrendously offensive.

[mzmolly]

54. So are yours, and mine

to some.

[emilyg]

63. Not to me.

[opiate69]

67. So then, the idea that God intervened on her behalf

while simultaneously ignoring wholesale genocide in Africa, babies born with birth defects, young children dying of cancer, natural disasters, etc isn't offensive to you?

[mzmolly]

72. No.

Some believe that according to Bible we were instructed to care for one another, the fact that we don't is what's offensive to me.

[emilyg]

84. Amen.

[opiate69]

85. Thanks for adding to the conversation.

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

145. So God had nothing to do with her shooting that guy

yet she claims he did.

In the words of Bullwinkle, "What are the sides again?"

Do you get dizzy from spinning so much?

[mzmolly]

170. No, he actually shot himself.

No wonder she thought God was involved. However, I'm defending her right to her belief system. I have no idea why my point would make your head spin, unless of course you're quite simple?

[opiate69]

171. Again, nobody's questioning her right to her belief system.

We're merely excercising our right to point out how ignorant, offensive and myopic it is.

[mzmolly]

174. So, she wasn't supposed to mention her beliefs, just have them?

Sorry, I've seen many posts IN THIS TREAD insulting any belief in "God" and using this womens comments as an avenue to do so.

[endarkenment]

178. She can state her beliefs. We can state ours.

It seems that having stated publicly that the Deity made her do it, we are not allowed to say "no, there is no Deity and the non-Deity did not make you do it". Good for her for saving lives. I disagree with her public statements about divine intervention.

[mzmolly]

191. I don't have a problem with what you just posted. You've stated your position respectfully.

I wish I could say the same for others.

I'm out for now.

Peace

[Goblinmonger]

192. So why didn't god have him shoot himself

a little earlier so nobody had to die? Why save this woman but nobody else?

[mzmolly]

195. You are apparently ascribing the belief system promoted by the officer in question to me?

Yep, I'm gonna go with that "simple" thing I noted earlier.

[Goblinmonger]

202. No, I'm not.

You are supporting her right to believe what she wants. I am showing why that belief is a steaming load of shit. I get to say that in a free country just like she gets to say what she wants.

[mzmolly]

211. I don't take issue with your steaming load of shit assertion.

However, I also don't think you can assess her beliefs in full from a few isolated comments. Many people spend a lifetime evolving spiritually. If I were to guess, I'd say perhaps she believes the girls who perished have a special "job in heaven." You were a Catholic, this mindset shouldn't be entirely foreign to you.

How do you feel when someone believes you're going to rot in a "steaming load of shit" for eternity for your non-beliefs? Is is ok for someone else to express themselves with the blanket insults/candor you do?

[Goblinmonger]

223. It's not foreign to me.

But I always had problems with the concept that god needed these girls for something special in heaven and instead of making them die a nice peaceful death, he put them through this heinous experience.

It is one thing to say that what someone says is a steaming load of shit and a completely different thing to say that you hope someone rots in a steaming load of shit for eternity. Can you really not see the difference?

[mzmolly]

226. You inserted the word "hope" not me.

It is one thing to say that what someone says is a steaming load of shit and a completely different thing to say that you hope someone rots in a steaming load of shit for eternity. Can you really not see the difference?

[Goblinmonger]

229. hope...will...same diff

still a completely different attack

One is on the thought process of a human being and that which they put forth. The other is regarding an eternity of punishment for something.

Though I get your point and am mulling it about.

[mzmolly]

230. Thanks Goblinmonger.

All I can ask is that you ponder what I've said, and I appreciate that you are.

Have a nice evening. :hi:

[Guaranteed]

231. It doesn't matter, though.

It's about what she did, not what she said afterward, in the shock of having just KILLED someone.

Don't know if you have ever killed anyone, but I imagine it's a little intense.

You're picking stupid stuff out of her reaction (why, I don't know- I think the word "Christian" came up or something) and missing the point of what actually happened. Seriously- who the hell cares what she said?

[Goblinmonger]

233. All we have is what she says

That's how we know what people are thinking.

Add in the fact that she is a member of Haggard's former church and I think I have her pegged. They are certainly a hateful bunch.

[Midlodemocrat]

147. Not to me.

And, those of you who are offended at what she said are reeking of false outrage.

How does what she believes affect you in any way, shape or form?

And, don't strawman it to include the entire right wing fundie section of the Republican party. How does HER belief affect YOU?

[opiate69]

169. So, I'm only allowed to opine on matters which directly affect me?

[Egalitariat]

224. You're miserable, aren't you? And "unlucky" too, I bet****

nm

[opiate69]

262. Hmm.. nope.. thanks for the ignorant attempt at generalization though.

[eleny]

52. Did you see the entire press conference?

They showed it live and in its entirety here in Colorado. The woman was over the top.

What started me over the edge was when she was giggling during her introduction. And afterwards, when they asked her how to spell her name and asked her age she laughed about how she wasn't going to tell her age. She even mentioned that she was single but hoping god would send her a man. Find the entire interview. It's an eye opener.

[mzmolly]

56. I've seen people react to stress in various ways. But believing in God

in and of itself should not merit criticism from those of us who are "tolerant." Some of the greatest progressive minds ever, believed in "God" in some form.

I admit to missing the entire press conference, and it sounds like I'm glad I did? ;) The woman sounds a bit tacky from what you describe?

Edited for punctuation.

[eleny]

60. I have to wonder who was behind having her make the appearance

And about tolerance - I'm not tolerant of fundy wackos. There are some lines I just won't cross. In the past day and half I've learned quite clearly what a danger they can be to themselves and others.

[gatorboy]

64. I'm guessing reporters.

[eleny]

69. If her pastor had an ounce of insiight he would have kept her out of the press conference

If, as some people here assert, she didn't quite have her feet on the ground yet then he ought to have asked her not to attend. Given that she just had been on a three day fast, it would have been the sensible thing to do.

[gatorboy]

74. You think a pastor has the power to order her around?

C'mon! :rofl: From the looks of the video the conference took place at the police station (Where it was reported she is or was a police officer), not much a pastor could do about that, and even if he wanted to why would he?

[eleny]

120. My caveat: If he had an ounce of sense

Not likely.}(

[mzmolly]

73. "I'm not tolerant of fundy wackos." Neither am I, because of their intolerance.

;)

But I feel that we have to be better than they are personally. If the woman in question had used her "opportunity" to bash Gays or liberals or ... I'd have an issue. But, simply stating her belief that "God" helped her, is not offensive to me.

[opiate69]

59. One can express their belief in God

without myopically insulting the countless number of people who weren't so lucky to have Him intercede to allay their suffering. It's called "humility" and I've been told it's one of Jesus' most endearing traits.

[mzmolly]

66. So Jesus didn't claim that God intervened in the lives of others?

Interesting Bible you must have read.

Most who believe that God intervenes "here" believe that God does so in the "after world" as well.

FYI, If my Mother (who was diagnosed a schizophrenic/bipolar with homicidal tendencies several years ago) had ever barged into a Church with a gun intending to kill people, perished in such an act, I'd not take offense at the comments made. I wouldn't believe them, but I certainly would not find them "lacking in humility." In fact, I think the comments made by a cop on the scene would be the LAST of my concerns.

[opiate69]

70. No.. saying "God protected me, but not all these other people" lacks humility.

[mzmolly]

76. Depends upon how we define "protected."

As I've indicated, those who believe in an after life feel that eventually those who "suffer" on Earth will be protected in the ultimate manner for eternity. I don't have time to be offended by others beliefs when said beliefs are not advocating bigotry or evil.

[opiate69]

77. That's merely rationalization on their part.

"Well, that poor little Sudanese boy has to watch his mother get gang-raped then shot through the back of the head, and his father get hacked to pieces by machetes, and then he'll get hacked to death. But at least he'll have a better go of it in the afterlife. (Provided he believes in the *right* God, that is.)

[mzmolly]

82. Indeed it is.

Though I don't know enough about the belief system of the woman in question to know what specifically she believes.

[la la]

55. my feeling is....

that all her talk about god took the onus off her, in that she killed someone. If you've ever killed someone- good or bad-- therapy hopefully helps--this seems to be her 'therapy' --'god was with me and god made me do it'.

just my opinion

[emilyg]

62. So what? Did she hurt anybody by what she said?

[eleny]

65. Her using the press conference as a pulpit disgusted me

Being "hurt" isn't the only time I allow myself to express disgust.

[endarkenment]

135. The OP asked 'why the hostility'. The answer has been repeatedly given.

Did she hurt anyone? Probably indeed she has or will have hurt somebody who has now decided to wait for divine intervention rather than to act responsibly to deal with some situation because of her claim. Somebody, for example, has decided to not get a mammogram or a prostate exam, but to instead let God take care of it. After all these are unpleasant procedures, the Lord will take care of us instead.

[Marie26]

155. But isn't that the exact opposite of what she did?

"she has or will have hurt somebody who has now decided to wait for divine intervention rather than to act responsibly to deal with some situation."

But that's not what she did at all - she wasn't sitting there waiting for divine intervention, instead she acted responsibly herself to deal with the problem.

[endarkenment]

166. The irony of her stated claim was not lost on me.

However, the guardian shooter, in her defense, appears to view herself as an agent of the Deity. This introduces a whole complex issue over free will. Presumably the explanation for why the bad shooter was there despite the existence of a Deity with the power of divine intervention has something to do with 'free will', either that or one has to hold that the Deity slaughters innocents to prove a point. (Of course the Deity's book clearly records that this is exactly what the Deity does.) So free will brings in the bad shooter and then divine intervention brings in the good shooter who acts, not with her own free will, but with the hand of the Deity pushing her around. All very puzzling to us outside this belief system. When pushed, the explanations become babble and we are told that the Deity cannot be understood by us mortals.

From out here, from outside the bubble of superstition, all of this seems very peculiar to us, irrational, odd, insane, and frequently dangerous.

[Marie26]

180. Shrug

I don't care if she credits God, Buddha, or the Flying Spagetti Monster. She prayed & found the strength to do what needed to be done - and saved hundreds of innocent lives. Nothing else really matters to me.

I was just disputing your point that she's somehow inspiring people not to take action - taking action is exactly what she did.

[endarkenment]

185. Deeds vs words

As I have said repeatedly: good on her for acting as she did. Too bad she had to confuse that message with the assertion that god made her do it.

[Marie26]

190. That's it exactly

Deeds vs. words. She did a good deed, so I don't really care who she credits. Would you have a problem with it if she went in that press conference & said that she's an athiest & there's no God? They're both just opinions. I'll admire someone who does good deeds much more than someone who just spouts the right words.

[endarkenment]

213. "said that she's an athiest & there's no God"

Yeah, my reaction would have been about the same, "WTF?".

[Marie26]

215. It'd be the same reaction for me too

A shrug & a "live & let live". OK, but what about the Flying Spagetti Monster?

[walnutpie]

208. It has always been my understanding

that god helps those who help themselves

[gatorboy]

45. Amen!

Damn! I can't recommend this twice. :)

[treestar]

49. This is typical of the attitude

Complaining from the majority religion about being "persecuted."

Fundies are usually Republican, so why's it so strange they aren't loved on DU?

So many RW fundies have made negative comments about gays, people who follow other religions, feminists, environmentalists. Some of it is backlash from that.

We all know there are real and decent Christians. It doesn't always have to be literally taken when we make fun of fundie nutcases, as applying to all Christians.

[rAVES]

53. Religion is a mind sickness.

This Girls a hero.. god done nothing.. he doesn't exist.

[geomon666]

61. The universe is 99.999% benevolent?

You couldn't be more wrong. The universe is quite chaotic. Massive star explosions. Colliding galaxies. Massive black holes devouring anything and everything. Deadly radiation in pretty much every direction.

The universe is not a fun place. Beautiful, but not fun.

[undergroundpanther]

71. I don't know

why christians have to talk about god to anyone in earshot.Why the pressure to convert?
Why can't christians leave people alone and quit telling others what to believe,how to talk,dress,what they do sexually,why can't christians just keep it with each other and leave non christians alone.Christians have had domination over entire nations and history shows that wasn't an era big on human rights. Have some humility and please park your jesus at the curb when you are not at church or around your'fellowships'.Churches have made the gates of hell the church's own doors. The bible has tales of genocide,rape murder..(book of Joshua). It has been used to rationalized much inhumanity and jesus said alot of bullshit I find morally repugnant.Liberal Christians don't get it because they focus on warm fuzzies and don't want to see how disgusting thier god is in it's own book.To me that is intellectual and spiritual cowardice.That book is the most insidious and caustic propaganda ever made and whatever spiritually was in it was edited out by constantine and the council of Nicea.

So pardon me if I am a bit agitated,and irritated with christians, too many of them are not honest even with themselves about how narcissistic the religion itself is.It's all a big reward and punishment game designed to get kids through thier parents to obey authorities,all so you can become a priest king after you die and smash your enemies like clay pots.The religion is rotten.

Look I have been hurt by christians several times and quite severely mytolerance is not generous anymore because I am sick of trusting just to be fucked with by the christians,yeah you say not all christians..but yeah they are,more or less,they are obnoxious. Here is my beliefs,I am a Malthiest. That means I hate whatever created this sick sad world.I hate the "creator" for life here is a prison stuck in this awful human condition in frail gross flesh and I never wanted to be put here in this horrid world in this constricting body.But here I am.Because of the selfishness of my parents to make a new plaything.
And I think your god is not good.It has evil in it,from the beginning. Christians for the most part do not read enough of the ugliness in the bible to get that.

Atheists don't be like the crusaders, non believer fundies piss me off as does ANY sort of fundie.

I hate controlling overbearing,narcissistic, authoritarian,psychopathic,hypocritical,rigid,bullying ,nosy,busybody people. I don't care what religion they say they are or are not,fucked up personalties are a burden to anyone within their social range,yeah, mean people suck.They suck like this fucked up existence sucks.I hate the personality that spawns fundamentalism.

[Greyhound]

75. A confluence of hypocrisy and darwinism.

So many examples of delusion and stupidity in one story, from the "church" that denies shelter to one of its flock, to the kill 'em for jesus guard, to the would-be mass murderer that doesn't shoot the only other armed person present. It's almost as if Mike Judge were channeling Kurt Vonnegut.

[undergroundpanther]

79. yowtch.

Greyhound said,
It's almost as if Mike Judge were channeling Kurt Vonnegut.

Damn That makes my head hurt..LOL.

[endarkenment]

97. I'm fine with Christians who want to shoot each other.

As long as they do not impose this sort of behavior on the rest of us.

[spoony]

258. One more monument to insurmountable bigotry

There is no reasoning with a bigot who says this sort of shit.

[BoneDaddy]

98. I have known sociopaths who are religious

and sociopaths who are not. I have known great people who are religious and great people who are not.

Many in DU make the same irrational, all or none statements about religious that the fundamentalists make about non-believers.

I, personally, reject the concept of an Abrahamic God, but think that many anti religious are equally irrational in their certitude of the universe.

[Marrah_G]

100. Nice post

I just wish people in general could behave a bit more civilly, especially within the internet community.

I have no problem with most beliefs (as long as they do no harm) and I fail to see why it is necessary for some to be rude and hurtful to strangers. I find myself putting more and more on ignore because reading their words just makes me sad.

[BoneDaddy]

241. I can only speak from my experience

and I have found fundamentalists among all groups. Thanks for the kind words.

[blondeatlast]

121. Thank you. I don't know the answers but intend to enjoy trying to find them. nt

[BoneDaddy]

242. I have seen both sides of the argument and

I reject both the fundies and the atheists. Both are sure of their certitude. I remain a hopeful agnostic.

[Breeze54]

101. They seem to lack any humility

Sure, she saved some lives and that other guy that was asking for the gun and got shot in the forearm.

They were both interviewed on Good Morning America today.

BOTH told US how courageous they were...talk about lack of humility.

Most times, people in that situation will say, "I was just doing my job."

But not these two. They both commended THEMSELVES!!! :eyes:

And her going on and on and on about god and guns and her courage made me want to puke.

[eleny]

122. Thanks for the update

And today we learn that she was fired from a previous law enforcement job in another state for "truthfulness issues". kentuck posted about it here in DU this morning.

And Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council is blaming the secular media for the shootings.

This whole pack of hyenas are using this tragic situation to prop themselves up. Distasteful doesn't begin to define them.

[Redneck Socialist]

102. God and guns

Collectively DU's not such a big fan of either and this event combines a faithful person and the defensive use of a gun. Both of those things tend to rub much of DU the wrong way.

[aikoaiko]

107. its not just the religion factor -- there are so so anti-gun at DU that they can't be happy with her

(I posted this in another thread)

There are some who have argued that such actions (as taken by the hero shooter, Jeanne Assam) would be irresponsible, but this example stings their I-only-trust-the-police-to-protect-me mentality.



eta: Thank you Jeanne Assam.

[Romulox]

108. I think people have a need to hate; the socially acceptable targets of hate change over time. nt

[slackmaster]

111. Good post, BGL

:toast:

[readmoreoften]

112. It's the refusal to take responsibility to one's own actions that absolutely freaks me out.

I have absolutely no problem with this woman stopping a gunman. But this "god did it, not me" stuff is extremely socially dangerous. She did it. She needs to deal with the moral responsibility of having had to kill to save lives. Refusing this responsibility, and people glorifying her for her refusal to take responsiblity for her actions (i.e. "Oh, darlin' God was with you! He used you! He touched your heart! That was Him that pulled the trigger not you! You were His Own vessel!") is extremely socially dangerous.

And it bothers me because, as a gay "child-killer" God might pull the trigger on me someday (of course, using their human hands.)

[midlife_mo_Jo]

113. Too many atheists here

don't like that some christians "out there" belittle their non-beliefs, so they like to bully christians and christian beliefs here.

Real grown up, huh?

[endarkenment]

128. So god chose to put the shooter into the church so that

his chosen hero could kill the shooter after the shooter had shot and killed a bunch of innocent people? Is that what your faith and religion leads you to believe? And this belief of yours has what exactly to do with the commendable teachings of one Jesus of Nazereth?

[gatorboy]

130. Were you trying to prove her point?

Bravo!

[endarkenment]

131. Once again, my objection is to the disgusting claim that 'god put me there'.

I have no objection to the woman rescuing others in the church from the deranged shooter. I cannot abide claims of divine intervention in cases like this. Where was god before five people died? Sleeping?

Do you support the routine claims of divine intervention on the football field? If not how exactly is that different from this claim?

[gatorboy]

132. I missed this football field miracle you speak off.

When did this happen?

[endarkenment]

136. Every saturday and sunday each fall all across this great land.

God is routinely beseeched to intervene and then gratefully thanked for having done so. These miracles happen in the hundreds every weekend. No explanation for the failings of the other team is ever made clear.

Why are these intercessions not equally valid?

[gatorboy]

140. You're really fascinated with football it seems.

(Never watch the stuff myself). What's the attraction?

[endarkenment]

149. Soldiers are routinely told that God is on their side.

Both sides. How can that be?

[gatorboy]

153. Is that a football metaphor?

:rofl:

[endarkenment]

159. Idiots frequently have nothing to say... divine intervention?

[gatorboy]

161. And yet...You keep talking.....Believe it or not....

[Goblinmonger]

148. Too often Christians "in here" like to bitch

about atheists "bullying" them when in reality it is just that the atheists here are actually talking about atheism rather than shutting up about it like we have to do "out there."

Why is religion off the block for being talked about? Why can't atheists talk about religion? I think it is "real grown up" that the vast majority of the country is offended when someone says that their beliefs might actually be hockum.

[Midlodemocrat]

151. Being told that one's beliefs 'might be hockum' is not productive

to a good discussion. It's belittling.

I am a person of deep and profound faith. One of my dearest friends on this board, matcom, is an atheist.

We had an astonishingly productive and enlightening discussion about our beliefs via PM several years back. He had been raised in faith as had I and I was extremely curious as to why he decided against pursuing his faith and what he currently believed.

It made my regard for him even higher than it was because there was no belittling, or superstitious nonsense talk.

JMHO. YMMV.

[Goblinmonger]

154. OK I understand that

But your assumption is that I, and other atheists on her, do not have or are not capable of having those conversations. Of course we do. I was raised strict Catholic and spent 4 years in a high school seminary. I have many good friends that are religious (3 of them priests). I can and do have talks with them about god and it all goes very well. But when theists start stating things like they have on this thread, i don't understand why I can't say that is equally as wrong as they claim it is right. It is a discussion from both sides. I very rarely see atheists coming out and attacking people out of the blue and if it does they usually get deleted.

Peace.

[Midlodemocrat]

156. I didn't assume anything like that.

I was responding to your post. And, the fact that have been many posts about how ridiculous a belief system like mine is.

I haven't ever derided those who believe differently than I do. I believe for very specific reasons.

And, in all honesty. Maybe the shooter is saying that 'God was with me' because she wasn't ever put into a situation like that before and couldn't believe she remained as calm as she did and as a person of faith, believed that there must have been some form of divine intervention.

[Leopolds Ghost]

238. It is bitching to bitch about other's religious beliefs, which is all you do here.

What have you done to benefit Senate bill 1668, to save public housing in New Orleans?

I wish I could say I've done something, but I don't even know anyone here who knows or cares about it. Too busy "asserting their atheism" and bitching about someone else's religion and how it cramps their style.
They obviously don't live in public housing.

[Goblinmonger]

249. Even IF it were all I do here

so what? To assume that an online persona is all that happens when that person is offline is ignorance.

But now the failure of Senate bill 1668 is because of atheists? Are you serious? OK, fine, just blame everything on us if it makes you feel better. Why don't you bitch about the people that are on here talking about their non-atheism? Aren't they taking away from Senate bill 1668? It's just so damned idiotic I don't even know what to say that won't get me in trouble.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

123. Hear Hear BGL, And I'm Glad To See You Have Your Asbestos Undies On.

I applaud your sentiment.

[supernova]

125. Welcome back, OMC!

:D :rofl:

What a subject to wade in on! :P

:hug:

[Withywindle]

144. YAY welcome back!

I think this thread needed you. :evilgrin:

[timtom]

139. Thank you!

We need more of these posts to defuse the powder keg of anything that has the word or concept of "Christian" in it.

I, for one appreciate your observation and comments.

We all need to stand united against the real enemy: corporatists, fascists, enablers, destroyers of our Constitutional Republic.

[Midlodemocrat]

143. Great post, BGL.

:applause:

I completely agree with you.

[Marie26]

152. Totally agree

And IMO there's a difference between someone saying "God chose me to be a Messiah, saved from death, etc." and someone saying "God gave me the strength to do what I had to do."

[TCJ70]

177. For those bothered by her saying that God protected her:

What else would you call it when you move towards someone with superior fire power, who is firing at you, and you don't get hit?

If I were this lady, I'd say that was God protecting me too! I wouldn't have any other explanation for that.

[endarkenment]

182. How about "the crazy person didn't shoot at her"?

Or "the crazy person missed"? Do you really think that the only reasonable explanation is that some supernatural all powerful being moved the bullets out of her path?

[LeftyMom]

186. It wasn't God. The bible doesn't say god stops bullets, and if he's defeated by iron chariots

he'd definitely be overmatched by crazy dudes with guns.





It must have been Neo.

Woah.

[TCJ70]

188. *gasp*

Maybe she's "the one"!

[TCJ70]

187. Well, I wasn't there.

I'm just saying that this is a guy who had already killed some people. If he had time to fire shots at her while she was getting closer to him...it just seems like an odd set of circumstances for him to miss.

I'm trying to look at it from her perspective. If I had her beliefs, I'd chalk it up to God, too.

[LeftyMom]

183. "he missed"

People miss their shots all the time. It doesn't take divine intervention to explain that some people can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Also, if some hypothetical god did protect her but let two teenage girls die, he has some 'splaining to do, so that's not remotely logical.

[TCJ70]

193. Just look at it from her point of view

She's a believer. She moved towards a guy who was shooting at her and didn't get hit. I'd give that one to God, too.

[LeftyMom]

194. Her bias toward irrational explanations does not make for a reasonable explanation. nt

[TCJ70]

196. Then wait for an official explanation

I just don't think it's right for people to jump on this woman for expressing her beliefs, no matter how much they disagree with her.

[opiate69]

199. Divine intervention...

Jules: This was Divine Intervention! You know what "divine intervention" is?
Vincent: Yeah, I think so. That means God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Jules: Yeah, man, that's what it means. That's exactly what it means! God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Vincent: I think we should be going now.
Jules: Don't do that! Don't you fucking do that! Don't blow this shit off! What just happened was a fucking miracle!
Vincent: Chill the fuck out, Jules, this shit happens.
Jules: Wrong! Wrong, this shit doesn't just happen.
Vincent: Do you wanna continue this theological discussion in the car, or at the jailhouse with the cops?
Jules: We should be fuckin' dead now, my friend! We just witnessed a miracle, and I want you to fucking acknowledge it!
Vincent: Okay man, it was a miracle, can we leave now?

[Bluebear]

184. Good fortune?

[opiate69]

203. Jules? Is that you??

Jules: This was Divine Intervention! You know what "divine intervention" is?
Vincent: Yeah, I think so. That means God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Jules: Yeah, man, that's what it means. That's exactly what it means! God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Vincent: I think we should be going now.
Jules: Don't do that! Don't you fucking do that! Don't blow this shit off! What just happened was a fucking miracle!
Vincent: Chill the fuck out, Jules, this shit happens.
Jules: Wrong! Wrong, this shit doesn't just happen.
Vincent: Do you wanna continue this theological discussion in the car, or at the jailhouse with the cops?
Jules: We should be fuckin' dead now, my friend! We just witnessed a miracle, and I want you to fucking acknowledge it!
Vincent: Okay man, it was a miracle, can we leave now?

[TCJ70]

204. If you don't like her explanation...

...then wait for a more official one from whatever source you deem fit.

All I'm saying is that if I held the same beliefs as this woman, I'd probably give God credit for it as well. This isn't exactly the same as someone thanking God for an award or something.

[endarkenment]

214. Ah! I knew this all rang a bell.

Thanks for the reference.

[lonestarnot]

181. Because she's a stomach turner. I listened to her crap and mine turned.

[Bluebear]

197. "I took a moment to pray to the Holy Spirit"

That idiotic comment jumped out at me, no "hate" or "bashing". She wanted everyone to believe that in the middle of a hail of gunfire she actually remembers taking a moment's pause to pray to the Holy Spirit, which is totally concocted.

[Marie26]

198. I believe it

She's a religious fundamentalist, after all. When a madman starts shooting, that's pretty much the time that people start praying to God.

[Bluebear]

201. I would think adrenaline and the task at hand would be more pressing.

She was a security guard, I submit that if she took a moment out to pray she was not being as effective as she could be in her job!

[Marie26]

206. Oh, come on!

She straight toward the sound of gunfire, asked him to surrender, took return fire & then shot him. Much more effective than the two other security guards who apparantly just stood there. I truly don't understand the need to bash this person. Y'all are nuts, in my humble opinion.

[Bluebear]

207. I wasn't bashing her, and I'm sorry you think I all are nuts. Ciao.

[Marie26]

210. Adios!

Oh, I've missed DU.

[lonestarnot]

221. Well miss it harder by all means.

[Marie26]

246. Hmmm

I'm confused. Weren't you putting me on ignore? That's the general meaning of "ciao", adios, goodbye, isn't it? Of course, that would prevent getting the last word!

[lonestarnot]

220. She fucking voted for bushitler and I think you're nuts.

[piedmont]

232. huh?

[Leopolds Ghost]

235. All violence is immoral. Government based on violence is an armed gang.

Churches that seek the protection of armed men or women
are no better than the bishops who killed St. Thomas a Becket.

Thank the woman for saving YOUR life, but expect her to
answer for what she did.

[Leopolds Ghost]

237. It's not too late to pass S.1668

Can someone tell me what the OP is in reference to?

I have been preoccupied with trying to find information
from someone who cares about saving public housing in
New Orleans, as to what is being done to stop it.

All I know about this is that there was a shootout in a
church between a killer and an (unrepentant) armed parishioner
which is absolutely sickening for anyone who claims to be
a practicing Christian (as opposed to Evangelo-Baptian).

[Leopolds Ghost]

239. Again, what is this about?

From what I can tell, since the subject of discussion seems to be
esoterically reserved for teevee addicts, what the woman did (on teevee?)
was "heroic" (in a medieval, pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon sense) but
un-Christian. There is a distinction.

What does this have to do with atheism? An atheist who is not a
pacifist has no truck -- none -- with this.

Try focusing on passage of S.1668, a bill that has NOTHING to do
with a religion you don't believe in.

[TCJ70]

247. I don't have TV and I knew about it.

People are bugged by the fact that she said she felt God was with her when she performed her duties as a security guard. As for what she did being un-christian...how do you get that?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

251. And now this is all moot. The gunman killed himself and what does

it say about this fundie security guard and "witness" to her heroism with God on her side???

[TCJ70]

252. You don't think...

...that her shooting him multiple times before he killed himself had anything to do with it? The guy had plenty more ammunition with him.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

253. Do we know that she shot him multiple times now? It will interesting when all the facts come out.

on edit.
I just read a thread that she shot him 3 times. Twice in the thigh and once in the wrist. it was an act of bravery on her part. It is also possible that in the passion of the moment that she didn't see him shoot himself in the head, although I doubt that.

[TCJ70]

257. The only quote I've seen from her...

...is that she "took him down". Whether she meant that as "I killed him" or "I disabled him" is up in the air.

Thank you for finding the answer to your question though.

[Goblinmonger]

254. I'm assuming everyone in here who agreed with the OP

will be running to Huckabees defense in those threads about his "submissive women" stance which is clearly part of his religion.

I'm waiting. Hope to see you there soon.

[The Straight Story]

255. No

Cause you can disagree with parts of a theology (ie, his specific stance on an issue) - in the case here it isn't about a theological issue, it is the fact that she is a christian (a general issue).

[Goblinmonger]

256. No

It is the fact that her particular views of Christianity lead her to believe that there is a god that will allow other people to die at the hands of a psycho but would single her out for salvation. And, lest we forget, this is the church of Haggard, not an especially progressive or likable bunch.

So why can people make fun of Huckabee for being a right wing Christian nutbag, but I can't say anything about THIS right wing Christian nutbag.

Seems like a pretty clear double standard. Or hypocrisy if you will.

on edit; can't believe how I butchered salvation.

[seabeyond]

263. hubby and i watching news heard story and BOTH he and i turn to each other

with an eyebrow raised. if you do not think it is odd that a church has an armed guard, well, i guess you may not understand what people may be talking about, or the sneers, or comments. i did not need to diss the woman per se. as you say, she was doing the job. but both husband and i have qualms with any church that has armed guards. i would take the risk of a crazy guy shootin up the church, than attend a church in worship feeling the need to be armed.