People like Jeanne Assam scare me just as much as the gunman

[BushOut06]

It scares me to no end that there are people walking around packing firearms, with "God" telling them what to do. We don't need a bunch of armed vigilantes taking the law into their own hands. In this instance, everything turned out okay - but her actions could have actually made things much worse. She could have very easily missed and hit someone else, been shot herself, and further provoked the gunman. Not to mention this woman was FIRED from her job as a police officer in Minnesota for lying about swearing at a bus driver while investigating an incident - she obviously has some issues herself.

I think we're starting to see a troubling trend in this country, with citizens arming themselves and taking the law into their own hands.

[NightWatcher]

1. so we need heavily armed progressives who can take out the 'crazis'

:popcorn:

-signed a daily concealed carrier

[Buzz Clik]

2. Assam is not just a citizen taking the law into her own hands.

She is a licensed and highly trained security guard.

(I hope DU's hysteria over this issues fades soon -- we're collectively looking like a bunch of loons.)

[Blue_Roses]

39. she's also a cop

[malaise]

94. Wasn't she fired from the police force?

Why?

[Fierce]

123. For lying during an investigation.

She lied about whether she had cussed at a bus driver. She said no, the tape said yes.

[Bandit]

72. So I reckon that with your knowlege of people like this around

a regular citizen needs not to carry a firearm...This person that was fired from being an official police person is now following the word of God and killing people..In a Church no less..I suspect there are people like this in every nook and cranny of America. Does that ease any of your fears? Should you now advocate for them to enforce the law and for citizens to give up carrying weapons?

[onenote]

84. if she was working in a department store would you feel better?

Or in a stadium? Or a school auditorium?

She was a licensed security guard. She saved dozens (and possibly even hundreds) of lives.

Yeah, she's a fundie. So what. As far as I can tell, she did her job the way it was supposed to be done. If she attributes it to god, big freakin' deal.

[Mike Daniels]

97. She incapacitated someone who was an immediate threat to others

I would rather have someone like that in my general vicinity than someone who apparently has a problem with the idea of people being able to defend themselves when a whack-job opens fire on a crowd.

[Dorian Gray]

93. No kidding....

and ditto!

[Ohio Joe]

3. ummmm

While I agree fundies with guns scare me, I thought this woman was a security guard, not a vigilante

[TCJ70]

4. She didn't take the law into her own hands...

...she did her job as a security person.

[artboy]

6. Exactly...

Gosh sometimes folks on here just bewilder me......She saved lives by doing exactly what she was and is TRAINED TO DO. Damn, shit or get off the pot.:wtf:

[BushOut06]

7. With God telling her how to do her job?

That's the part that scared me about her.

[TCJ70]

9. Why does it scare you?

Apparently God told her how to do her job correctly and effectively. That shouldn't scare anyone!

[Blue_Roses]

41. how did God tell her to do her job?

I heard her interview on GMA and she said it was her calling to protect. This is how things get so strung out of proportion.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

51. in triplicate, with attachments, hand delivered

just prior to the shooting.

[L0oniX]

117. Kinda like God speaking to Bush huh ...yea right ...I believe that ...NOT!

[TCJ70]

120. How does this even compare?

She saved a lot of lives.

[L0oniX]

163. it's the part about -God " telling them what to do" that is like Bush

You don't remember him implying that God tells him what to do? Whatever. pffft

[dmallind]

10. Sure but

the qualifications for firearms training and recertification for police officers let alone security guards are woefully low. Unless they are shooters by choice they are likely to be hopeless. Most people interested enough to spend the money and go through the rigmarole to get a CC permit are practicing far more than cops have to. In just one weekly session I fire more practice rounds than a cop has to to recertify for ten years. The idea that cops, again let alone security guards are some wonderfully trained special class of shooter is nonsense. Of course there are cops who ARE dedicated and skilled, even exceptionally skilled, shooters (I've been waxed in IDPA matches by more than one LEO, but it's worked in reverse too). But that's because they choose to be not because they have to be to be a cop.

[TCJ70]

12. With the good comes the bad...

...which one do you think she is based solely on this performance?

[dmallind]

23. Dunno - can't tell

Haven't been on a range or in a competition with her. In this one instance AFAIK she hit her intended target and no-one else. Her intended target more than met the legal standard for use of deadly force since he was unquestionably a danger likely to cause death or serious harm to others. So based on this very small sample she seems to be batting 1.000 so far. Doesn't mean she is uniformly a wonderful poster child for armed citizenry, but then why should she have to be?

[CTyankee]

14. A glaring omission in your argument is that police officers are public servants, and, as such,

are accountable to the people of their community. Civil accountability is key here! Ms. Assam was not accountable to the people. I am not arguing that she did what she was hired to do. That isn't the point. My argument is that in a civil society we have a police force that we hire in order to maintain law and order in our communities. When I make that statement, some responders at DU think I am either stupid or crazy. I'm afraid they have gone out on a limb so far with 2nd Amendment "rights" that they have lost sight of how a free society remains free.

[TCJ70]

17. That's true...

"My argument is that in a civil society we have a police force that we hire in order to maintain law and order in our communities."

But police can't be everywhere. That's why we have self-defense laws. This lady put herself in danger to protect the lives of others, whether by God's commands or her own volition. That's something I can't condemn.

[dmallind]

21. unfortunately the SCOTUS has said,

and logic dictates, that the police cannot be expected to protect us all. Why do you think it is a good idea to deny "normal" citizens with equal or better training and skills in firearams the right to do so for themselves? Trust me CCW permit holders are very very accountable with far less protection than the LEOs have in the event of needing to use deadly force. Every CCW training course I have even heard of spends as much if not more time on legal responsibilities and ramifications as on actual competence.

[CTyankee]

47. Which SCOTUS decision are you talking about? May I have the cite, please.

You and I have a basic disagreement. I believe that we must have civilian control of law enforcement and that is attained through sane laws and maintaining well trained, honest police officers. That is the ultimate goal to preserve our freedoms. I know you feel sincere when you speak of your fellow CCW permit holders. Perhaps you are reassured by their competence and their emotional/social frame of mind, but I simply cannot be. Not because I don't "trust" what you say but because there is no mechanism by which I, as a citizen, can have control over their operation of law and order in my community. It is a grave responsibility to put guns in the hands of people. I want to make damned sure I know who they are and how well civilian control operates over their conduct. I call that being a thoughtful, responsible citizen, something I learned in Civics class a long time ago.

[dmallind]

70. It's an easy search but hey

OK just this once...

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0706.html

Castle Rock v. Gonzales

3 dead kids. One suicide by cop. No right to protection even with mandatory arrest of restraining order violator, let alone in cases of surprise nutcase attacks..

You are also still sticking with the false idea that cops have some "special gun kung fu". The academy contains maybe 40 hrs of firearms training just one time when you qualify, and you requalify twice a year with very low standards. They vary, but generally you're looking at hitting large center mass targets at 21-40' MOST of the time over <20 shots. That's absolutely peanuts compared to what the vast majority of people who are shooters for fun do (of course this group includes some cops - but by no means all) to practice. It's an absurdly low standard compared to anyone who competes or even practices a lot on their own. I'm only a moderately skilled shooter by my peers' standards but at those kind of distances I'm looking at a 3" grouping tops.

So...would you be OK if CCW permit holders had to pass EXACTLY the same forearms tests as LEOs? I would. It frankly ain't that hard.

[CTyankee]

89. Remember that I said "well trained"? That would include marksmanship...

I believe that tougher state laws to protect women and children (and men too)are needed. Attempted murder is against the law and a case can be made to toughen standards of instances where police protection is necessary. I know that some feminists champion guns as the great equalizer but it is not necessarily the case (I digress here a bit to tell you that when I was growing up in Dallas my neighbor gunned down her cheating husband in their driveway. But she had the element of surprise, even tho he knew she kept a pistol in her glove compartment, for "protection", and that she had such a bad temper my mother was afraid of her, I guess with good reason! And I had an aunt who carried a pistol everywhere she went, driving other family members crazy trying gently to get her to let them "put it away for you while you're here". To my knowledge, neither of these women ever stopped a crime from happening because they wielded a gun.)

IN fact the domestic violence I am familiar with suggests that having a gun in the house can be and is often used against a family member during a heated argument, rather than in defense against an intruder (sometimes the "intruder" is another family member, as in a recent case here in CT). There are so many sad stories involving people who were law abiding...until they weren't and these are realities, certainly in my life if not in yours...

[dmallind]

91. You keep expanding your "reasons" here

Now because it's rare to need a gun I shouldn't have one? I've never had my airbag go off. I've never had my seat belt prevent me from going through a windshield but I wear it. I've never made a claim on my flood insurance but I pay for it. I've never been burglarized but I lock my doors. Shouldn't I do these things?

What state laws would help protect people against the kind of attack this thread is concerning? Isn't that already as illegal as it can possibly be? What else would help? An armed civilian DID. Without hurting anyone else or going on a rampage before she needed the weapon for self defense. Why is that a problem?

[CTyankee]

99. Well, this topic IS more expansive. Which is why a addressed a few of

the surrounding issues. It is complex. It is not easy.

I hope you remember that I did not deny that the guard did what she was hired to do. She followed the letter of the law regarding gun ownership, which I presume included background checks on her mental stability and no criminal history and whatever the state has decreed for gun licensure. My argument centered on the question of the best mechanism for law and order. It is also about public safety issues in a civil society.

So let me ask you this question: do you agree that the state should have the power to withhold/grant gun licenses in the way I just described? It is certainly government infringement on an "absolute" right, if you will, but I'd like to know if you think there is EVER a good reason for the state to do so when it comes to gun ownership? And if so, why?

[dmallind]

106. Absolutely, but some minor corrections

She was not hired but a volunteer. Her shooting appears to have been workmanlike at best. Certainly nothing unimaginable to normal mortals. Again there is little credibility in LEO firearms training. Any number of incidences demonstrate that. I'd put a randomly chosen shooter hobbyist against a randomly chosen LEO non-hobbyist any day. Dunno which one she was.


Should the state regulate gun ownership/carry? Absolutely. It does. There are thousands upon thousands of gun laws. Some make sense (not letting violent felons carry guns legally for example - although I certainly won't let the NO criminal history criterion go unchallenged. Serious violent crimes yes. Even felonies are so expanded these days to make this ridiculous. Couple of ounxces of pot equals no self defense rights? Nonsense - and no I have no drug convictions BTW). Others don't make sense (the idea that people who are loony enough to shoot up schools will somehow be prevented by "no guns allowed" signs for one).

Everyone's prespcriptions are different but if it were me I'd go with something like the following:

1. Pass a competency test to be licensed. Not so tough that only Special Forces snipers can pass, but tough enough to make sure you can make quick decisions under pressure and keep all your bullets hitting a reasonably sized target. I'd actually want this tougher than LEO certification from my experience.
2. Recertify annually, perhaps to a slightly less rigorous/extensive standard.
3. Exclude violent felons and mentally unstable.
4. License is national reciprocal CCW and possession permit. It's in the BOR so why it's now a mishmash of non-honored state regs is an issue. My DL works in 50 states and there is no Constititional right to drive.
5. End this ridiculous "no gun zone" crap where everyone who has a lemonade stand can post signs making it impossible to actually carry (since of course you can't just drop off a gun at the door in many places at all). Criminals don't care about it and permit holders are of little threat. Certainly exceptions can be made for places where reasonable expectation of potential threats exists such as courthouses or prisons, but these should be expected to provide secure firearms depositories at point of entry.
6. Certainly keep background checks, and in fact expand them to include private sales at gun shows and in person (sure this last will be tough to regulate - but it's a big loophole now)
7. Punish the crime not the tool. Use a gun in a crime? Go to jail for a while, and see #3. Have a gun and either not use it at all or use it justifiably? Leave the hell alone.
8. I'm not a rifle fan (I'm right handed and strongly left eyed - makes it a bugger to use long guns) but the cosmetic bans are asinine and should be scrapped. "Youth" hunting rifles have far more muzzle energy and penetration than the ugly black plastic "assualt rifles". Trust me if you are ever given the choice of being shot with a 30.06 deer rifle or an AK-47, pick the latter and you have a heck of a lot more chance of surviving. Same goes for magazine capacity restrictions. A Glock 19 with a 10+1 capacity in CA is the same damn thing as a G19 with a 15+1 capacity in CO. Reloads take about two seconds with practice. In what earthly scenario does that round count make a difference? Basically all the feel good stuff where nobody can rationally answer "why would this reduce harm or risk?" should go.

[Mugu]

77. Some lite reading for you.

Lower court decisions.

Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App. 3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)
Riss v. New York, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y.1968)
Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services (109 S.Ct. 998, 1989; 489 U.S. 189 (1989)
Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department (901 F.2d 696 9th Cir. 1990)

The granddaddy for the above decisions about there being no liability for the failure to protect individuals by law enforcement officers generally is accepted as originating in South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (18 How.) 396 (1856).

Regards, Mugu

[dmallind]

107. Cool stuff

I picked the Gonzales because it was both recent and very dramatic. Nobody would expect there to be a *guarantee* of protection since that is unrealistic, but to have no expectation of protection against an unstable restraining order violator and have a decision that expressly states self defense is a personal responsibility is one step beyond.

I had only even heard of a couple of these so thanks.

[Mugu]

110. I saw that one and still don't know how it didn't get included in my post.

I have never understood why people think that a restraining order will protect them. I generally advise that if confronted by their antagonist they should hold the restraining order in front like a shield and see how many bullets it stops.

For some reason I find the case of Riss v. New York quite disturbing.

Linda Riss, a young woman telephoned the police and begged for help because her ex-boyfriend had repeatedly threatened "If I can't have you no one else will have you, and when I get through with you, no-one else will want you." The day after she had pleaded for police protection, the ex-boyfriend threw lye in her face, blinding her in one eye, severely damaging the other, and permanently scarring her features. "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand," wrote a dissenting opinion in her tort suit against the City, "is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her."

Regards, Mugu

[HiddenInVA]

87. SCOTUS decision

I believe that Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748, decided June 27, 2005, is the decision the
other poster was referring to.

Well, I was right it appears, but way late, which is what happens when you start typing, then get
called away from the keyboard..... B-)

[Irreverend IX]

127. Concealed carry permit holders are much more accountable than police.

Concealed carry permit holders, as a whole, are much more accountable to society than police are. If a police officer shoots someone dead, they are generally assumed to be acting in the right as long as there's no evidence showing that they were blatantly careless in their use of deadly force. Even a "bad shoot" by cops generally gets them no more than a few days of administrative leave.

On the other hand, if a CCW holder shoots someone they can expect to be raked over the coals by the legal system. Even a clear-cut case of self-defense can cost a person thousands of dollars in legal fees if the district attorney is hostile to concealed carry. Police, by comparison, can spray bullets with impunity.

Also, CCWers do not "operate law enforcement in the community." The purpose of having a concealed carry permit is for primarily for self-defense and sometimes for defense of others in your immediate vicinity. For instance, a CCWer could see someone getting mugged and then step in to stop the mugging. However, they have no responsibility to "organize law and order." Police are employed to maintain law and order, but at the same time they are not required to protect individual citizens. If you want security, you must provide it for yourself, and that's what concealed carry is all about.

[jody]

129. Good post! n/t

[Mike Daniels]

38. Meanwhile, someone should have waited for the police to show up in this case?

I've seen your posts asking why the police weren't guarding the church and they seem to have been adequately answered by other posters.

That said, given that there's nothing to indicate that this church knew it was going to be specifically targeted nor can the cops send someone to every church over a general BOLO what would your solution have been to the immediate crisis?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

75. "Ms. Assam was not accountable to the people."

Umm come again? she was asked by the church to be there prepared to defend them should the worst happen. She had a *legally owned* firearm for which she was amply trained to use..

[piedmont]

88. Furthermore...

If she had engaged in illegal activity with or without that firearm, she would be prosecuted.

[Thothmes]

153. I believe that you are incorrect

She is accountable to the community through existing law. Which incidentally is the same law that police are held accountable to.

[michreject]

34. No shit

I shoot over 2,000 rounds a month. I shoot competition with some LEO's. They never place in the upper scoring level. These LEO's shoot more than most other cops also.

BTW. I have a carry permit and carry two guns with me every where I go.

[sendero]

114. Exactly..

.... this is not the same as the Joe Horn mess.

This dude might have killed 10 or 20 or 30 more people had there been no one there who was armed and willing to take him out.

I think her comments were a bit creepy, but her actions were those of a "hero". I always consider actions more meaningful than words.

[gatorboy]

5. Where were you yesterday when this was fresh? Worrying about the Falkland Islands?

Get with the times man, there's probably something new you can be shocked about today. :rofl:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. And,

she fired lots of rounds, hit the guy four times, and he still killed himself. She engaged in a "gun battle" with him and fired significantly more than those four.

Also, she's supposed to be an integral part of New Life's security and when she hears that a gunman had recently attacked a sister church's chapter of young missionaries her first action is to PRAY for the next few hours instead of getting on the horn to local law enforcement asking to be kept updated and discussing security contigency plans seeing as a huge congregation with whom she's tasked to protect is gathering at the same time a shooter targeting Christians is unaccounted for.

There's a lot of disgust for the whole thing out here, and it's shared by those who are hunters and firearms aficionados, as well those who are sickened by the gunplay.

This will continue to play out in unexpected ways, count on it. MKJ

[CTyankee]

19. What you described in your second paragraph is right on. I have argued that

the police should have been the first, not the last, people called in this situation. Your rational and sane description of what Ms. Assam SHOULD have been doing is exactly right and very well expressed. Thank you!

[onenote]

85. the police were there earlier, but left

earlier in the day, I understand that there was additional police presence at and around the church.
But after the main service, the police left.

[CTyankee]

90. Then it was wrong of them to do so. They obviously needed to be there.

I never said that police could be ineffective. They have a duty to protect the public. They are accountable to the public and therefore, there are ways to hold them accountable.

[Marrah_G]

11. So you would rather she wasn't there and that he was allowed to kill dozens more people?

Not quite sure what your point is.

CCW is okay, but not for Christians?

She broke the rules and lost her job for it. That doesn't mean she necessarily "has issues", you weren't there, you don't know.

If she wasn't there alot more people would be dead. I hate Mega churches, probably more then most, but I still would rather not see dozens of innocent people get killed.

Good for her...I am glad she was there... if she chooses to credit God, instead of herself, so what.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. Well, she's a lousy security guard, because she did nothing to coordinate with local law enforcement...

And, she's not a very good shot either.

But, yay, her.

MKJ

[TCJ70]

20. Maybe she heard about it from a news report...

...in which case law enforcement would already have been notified?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

24. She heard about it, and then prayed for hours.

What will be coming out, probably sooner rather than later based on questions that are being asked out here, is what, if any, type of communication did New Life and local law enforcement have prior to the second shooting since there was a twelve hour space of time between the two.

There are lots of furious folks out here regarding the way this was handled at both places. And, notice you're not seeing any NL parishioners lauding this woman's actions.

There are many questions about the initial reports, a six hour delay after the first shooting to send reverse 911 calls to the local neighborhood and how there was no plan in place at a similar mega church in the vicinity.

As information comes out, I'll post it here.

MKJ

[Blue_Roses]

44. "She heard about it, and then prayed for hours."

That's such bullshit. I heard her interview on GMA and she said nothing of the kind. Give it up.:eyes:

[Marrah_G]

22. Are any human's perfect enough for you?

Seriously....she could have hid, she could have run away, but she didn't and she saved some innocent lives because she had courage. Unless of course you don't think it takes courage to face a gunman.

In your flawless world she wouldn't have been where she was and alot more people would have been shot.

I have to wonder, how much of the anger towards this woman stems from her religous views?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. There's plenty of blame to go around.

She had her gun battle, she's had her fifteen minutes.

As more information is confirmed I'll post here.

But, among the parishioners, many of whom are hunters and military veterans, are lots of concerns about her lack of recognition of the possibility of collateral damage.

Currently, the speculation is that NL will quietly let her go, sooner rather than later.

Again, as developments occur, I will post. MKJ

on edit, changed "happy" to "fifteen minutes". I only speak to her notoriety, not her personal feelings.

[piedmont]

57. Huh? Are you a member of that church? nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

65. It's local talk, and I know several parishoners personally.

It's a big church. MKJ

[Mugu]

31. Yeah, that way the police could stand around outside until the shooting stops

like they did at Columbine high school. That worked out so well.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

32. ???

We're talking two different municipalities and situations.

Or, are you just going for the jugular, knowing my personal experiences with Columbine?

Either way, adds nothing, except trashing law enforcement.

MKJ

[Mugu]

33. I know nothing about you except what you have posted on this thread.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

36. OK, it's just the Columbine reference seemed gratuitous.

And, the Springs law enforcement isn't anything like JeffCo.

As you seem to have contempt for law enforcement personnel, it probably makes no difference to you. MKJ

[Mugu]

42. I'm pretty much indifferent about law enforcement personnel.

They're just other people to me, but I remember what happened at Columbine. I'll take one of this lady who ran to the fight over a whole department of "I'll wait here in safety until the shooting stops."

Edit: Need to proofread before posting.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

56. Well, as I said,

coming directly from those who saw her in action and who possess an excellent understanding of firearm protocol and safety, she seemingly displayed neither.

And, there are some other questions about the scenario, which, I imagine is the reason the MSM has dropped their coverage of this like a hot potato.

As an Army vet who has grown up and possessed firearms, what I'm hearing is quite alarming. As more comes to light, I will post.

MKJ

[Mugu]

63. Fair enough.

If I touched a nerve with the reference to Columbine I hope that you understand that it was completely unintentional.

Regards, Mugu

[LanternWaste]

92. I'm curious...

I'm curious...

What are the precise actions she should have taken and in what order?

In other words and with all other things being equal, precisely how should this have gone down with no room for mistake or error?

Was she aware of all pertinent and relevant information at the time? Precisely where was she in relation to all other parishioners and the shooter? Because it seems to me that if we don't know the precise answers to the above, the best we can do is second guess and arm-chair quarterback.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

102. She was in hallway which was sprayed with bullets from her and the shooter,

That's the latest information, a change or perhaps addition to previous information.

There have been some questions which forensics will clear up, I'm sure. And, the NL church has acknowledged that she's made "lots of bad decisions" in the past.(included in linked article)

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/12/guard-walks-police-through-heroic-gunbattle-at/


I can tell you, with all the focus on Ms. Assam, for us here, the questions are why were the reverse 911 calls not done for 6 and half hours and why it was so hard to identify someone who was begging to be recognized?

I, like many of my fellow CO citizens, know, work with and occasionally socialize with parishioners of both FB and NL. I've had conversations with those who are impacted by this, since this incident, and wish I could post more, but feel strongly that unless I told them I was posting their comments here, I shouldn't do it.

It's an uneasy alliance, I guess. The church I attend is minuscule and tame, by their standards. They are the behemoth religious institutions of this state.

For many of us who aren't members, there is a sense that a cover up began immediately with the Arvada shootings, and that only makes what happened at NL more tragic. That may be the reason for my own second guessing.

All of us here in the Denver/CO Springs community are still struggling to come to terms with the complex issues that have arisen from these shootings. Ms. Assam is who she is, she did what she did, and everything continues to play out.

I really wish I could give everyone more of the boots on ground kind of stuff I'm hearing, but I'm steering clear of anything but the facts as reported in the whatever passes for news.

I know that doesn't answer your question. Again, this will probably be sorting itself out after a while. MKJ

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

79. One can realize the limitations of the situation without contempt

The police and be everywhere and in the time it took them to get there more than a hundred could have been killed.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

78. Ok so she was trained as a police officer in the use of firearms

and was there at the time the guy got there..

But instead she should have waited for other cops to walk into an ongoing blood bath when he was in a crowded room rather than a sparsely populated hallway? There would be less of a risk of 'collateral damage' then right?

[Thothmes]

157. The police

generally are not good shots in a gun fight. Fear, adrenaline etc plays hell with aim. How many stories have made the news about a shoot out where the police fired dozens of rounds and scored one or two hits on their target. A recent incident in Newport News illustrates this. The police cornered a man in a bedroom at the top of some stairs, the lead officer fired 27 rounds at a target less than 15 feet away and hit the man twice.

[spin]

171. I suspect you watch too many movies...

police don't show up in seconds. 911 probably had already been contacted. We live in world where most people have a cell phone permanently attached to their ear, so the police were probably on their way. I doubt that they would have immediately rushed into the building to save the day like superheros, more likely they would have attempted to set up a perimeter and called for reinforcements (like a SWAT team).

Meanwhile, the prep would have continued shooting people like ducks in a shooting gallery.

Shooting a handgun at a moving person isn't as easy as it looks in the movies. Also 9mm handguns like the one the security guard used, are not known for "one shot" stops. Jeanne Assam did manage to hit the bad guy three times, twice in the thigh and once in the wrist. While not meeting Clint Eeastwood standards, she did succeed in stopping him. Remember, this is real life, not some fantasy dreamed up in Hollywood. She did real good, considering the situation and the pressure she was under.

Matthew Murray, the bad guy, had a Bushmaster AR-15 and two 9mm handguns. The AR-15 is a semiautomatic rifle, much easier to use and far more effective than a 9mm handgun. If he was a good shot, he would have killed her.

I doubt you will ever watch a movie about this situation, too many themes Hollywood would not buy into. Jeanne Assam is a real person who had a concealed weapons permit and used it to stop a massacre. She was religious... not at all acceptable. No cars blew up. She didn't shoot down a helicopter with a crossbow like Rambo. She didn't shoot Matthew Murray's weapon out of his hand and drop him with a flying back kick.

All in all she is just a normal person who did something heroic. All she did was put her life on the line to save others from dying. May the God she believes in bless her.

[jody]

13. I can put you down as supports criminals using guns and opposes guns for law-abiding citizens?n/t

[BushOut06]

16. Put me down for whatever you want

If it makes you feel better to misconstrue my post and twist its meaning, then go for it. I do not like the idea of civilians running around with firearms, period. Does that mean that I support criminals using firearms?

[jody]

67. OK, I'll put you down as opposing the Democratic Party platform, "We will protect Americans' Second

Amendment right to own firearms".

[BushOut06]

108. I don't require ever taking an oath to support each and every plank on the Democratic platform

There are plenty of Democrats who interpret the 2nd Amendment differently. Are you suggesting that everyone who doesn't toe the official platform 100% isn't a true Democrat?

[jody]

112. I said "I'll put you down as opposing the Democratic Party platform, 'We will protect Americans'

Second Amendment right to own firearms'."

Isn't that your position? :shrug:

[SharkSquid]

15. Wasnt she the security guard.

Seems pretty reasonable to me. Security guards + gun + crazy gunman= bang bang

[spoony]

25. You can curl up in fear at anything you want to

but Ms. Assam didn't kill anyone, let alone go hunting for people she hated.

As far as "further provoked the gunman" what exactly do you think he would've done? Shot faster? He was on a killing spree, that's about as provoked as it gets.

The stupidity of these arguments is truly mind-boggling.

[BoneDaddy]

29. It is called "reaction formation"

It is a psychological condition where people often define themselves by somethings opposite. For many DUers who are angry, bitter (maybe with good cause due to personal experiences)they make all or none judgements against anything deemed "christian" or "religious". It is sad.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

30. LOL. I always enjoy seeing a little DSM IV first thing in the morning.

:toast: MKJ

[DangerDave921]

68. LOL - Not stupid

I don't think these arguments are stupid; I think they're the strained, mentally contorted arguments of a person who is somehow, someway, trying to find a rational argument to defend their totally emotion-based feelings on the subject of guns. And failing miserably.

If my house is burning down, I sure don't want the fireman to spray any water on the fire, because that might just make the fire more mad and more motivated to burn my house!

[piedmont]

83. A spot-on assessment. Thanks. nt

[Goblinmonger]

71. I think, from what I have read, that the argument

she didn't kill anyone is not an argument in support of her. She shot the guy four times and fired more bullets than that and was unable to kill him. Seems she might need more training.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

80. Hmm how many times was Amadou Diallo shot again?

Closer range and four officers fired forty-one shots, hitting Diallo nineteen times.

These police officers had a less than 50% accuracy in a stressful situation..

[BoneDaddy]

138. Not sure of your point

If I was in her shoes, after witnessing him killing innocent people... I would have unloaded the whole clip....

Trying to link this to the horrible tragedy of Diallo makes what point?

[BoneDaddy]

27. Come on now

So much of DU slides into irrationality almost to the level of the fundamentalists. If God to her is her inner voice (for you it might be called conscience or survival mode)to help her deal with her fear then so be it. God isn't telling her to kill innocent people. Bunch of drama queens/kings at times.

[Mugu]

28. If you're as scared of Jeanne Assam as a crazed man with a rifle

I think it's clear who it is that has issues.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

81. LOL

[zorahopkins]

35. Me, Too.

How did this woman -- with her record, and who has "voices" from God speaking to her, ever get her hands on guns??

[Marrah_G]

43. What record?

So now anyone who believes in a deity is excluded from carrying a weapon?

This kind of disgusting bigotry is really sad to see on DU.

I see most of the posters judging this woman because of her religion and bending over backwards to make her actions somehow "bad".

The woman was there. She had a weapon. She saved alot of lives. Perhaps you would rather those people be dead because they are fundies? Personally I think that is what many here really mean.

You can "shoulda, woulda, coulda" all you want, that does not change the reality that if she were not there, if she had not chosen to stand up to him, that young man would have harmed a hell of alot more people.

[zorahopkins]

52. Was't She Fired For Lying?

She had a spotty employiment record.

She was, iirc, fired from a law enforcement agency for lying.

Fired.

From a law enforcement agency.

She heard "voices from God".

[Marrah_G]

59. Lying is now a criminal offense?

Being fired from law enforcement is criminal?

Being religious is now mental illness?

perhaps we should start rounding up all the religious people and everyone who doesn't have a spotless past.

Why don't you just admit the fact that you would have preferred this asshole have been allowed to kill a bunch of innocent people because you cannot stomach the possibility of having to say " good job" about a GASP " Christian".

You arguments make no sense and continue to show your obvious bias against one segment of our population. You are judging the woman by her beliefs and not by her actions.

[Chulanowa]

118. Being religious isn't the same thing as hearing voices

Being religious is one thing. Believing an omnipotent and flawless being is =directly talking into your head is another cup of tea altogether

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

82. Was't She Fired For Lying?

She cursed at a woman in an investigation, Bill Clinton lied about a BJ to keep his job..

People, sometimes, will do stupid crap to cover for things they should not have done. This is especially true when their job is on the line.

[CTyankee]

101. Police officers are officers of the court, as I understand it. As such, they must be held

to a very high standard of truthfulness in performance of their jobs. there is a very good reason for this, which I am sure you can figure out...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

111. I am not saying she should not have been fired, I dont know all the facts

I am saying her lie (about foul language) is no more serious than Bill Clinton's. Should a police officer be released for (allegedly) lying about an immaterial fact (weather or not she cursed) when it was OK for a President?

I dont think Clinton should have been removed and from what we know the officers lie was not about anything important.. so what if she has a gutter mouth..

[CTyankee]

131. Well, interesting that you should bring Bill Clinton into this.

I find that just fascinating. What else would you like to say about Bill Clinton?

Just interested, that's all...
'

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

137. I bring him in because he was good president

who got a bum rap because he lied about something. Like I said sometimes people lie about stupid things to save face even when they did not have to lie. This woman probably would not have lost her job for cursing but wanted to save face..

This woman is being attacked as some sort of nut case because she lied about something...

Are you seeing a connection?

[CTyankee]

161. Yes, and I agree on the Clinton thing, but he lied about a private (and may I say, legal) sex act.

Lying in the context of an investigation, while understandable in Ms. Assam's case, may be considered more problematic since it could lead to complications in the legal process. That is my main point. I do not want to excoriate this woman. I do not hate her because of her religiosity or anything else. To me it is not a personal issue. My son is a senior prosecutor working for the District Attorney in Brooklyn, NY, and I know how scrupulous he feels he must be in the conduct of performing his job. We have had several conversations (not related to this case) and I have sought his ideas about the law and law enforcement. It would be interesting to find out what he thinks about this case...

[Dorian Gray]

98. I agree 100%

Thanks marrah! You've said what I've thought and tried to say in other threads on the matter!

[Danger Mouse]

128. Damn straight, well said Marrah_G!

:applause: :applause:

[jmg257]

37. Yeah - better we should all just roll over and die as helpless victims.

There is a BIG diffference betweem vigilantism and providing for your own defense, the defense of loved ones (and on occasion for the defense of others).

Waiting around for the State to protect you is NOT the answer. It took 6 minutes for the police to arrive at the mall the other day. You should be THRILLED there are such people who are willing and able to take on the responsibility, who will step in and defend themselves and others, and not just run away. Wish there were more.

PLEASE tell me how she might have made things "much worse"? By "further provoking" a deranged gunmen already shooting everybody? Are you serious? Wake up! This shit happens, and unfortunately there is usually NO ONE to step in (like at VT), through bad luck or bad laws ("gun free" zone my ass! - what bull shit!).

You have your cell phone to protect you and your kids? 911 on speed dial? Good luck with that.

Maybe its long over-due we let the criminals FEAR us, instead of the other way around.


Sheesh.

[guitar man]

40. doesn't scare me

She did her job. Have you ever had to go up against an armed nut? I have. I guess it's natural to some to do a little praying in a situation like that.

If she hadn't stopped him when she did, no telling how many people he would have killed.

[Swede]

45. People like you scare me more than Jeanne Assam.

She was an armed security guard that did her job. Oops,your hate is showing.

[uppityperson]

175. Indeed. She was an armed security guard that did her job.

[Stewie]

46. Really?

Because I can't recall a SINGLE time I've EVER heard a survivor of a mass shooting say "Thank God no one else had a gun to protect me!"

And what's the with bizarre notion that if a crazed Charles Whitman-type meets a potential victim who is armed, it's the potential victim we need to be afraid of?

[NashVegas]

48. I'm Not Afraid of the Gunman

I've never fucked with anyone's head the way this kid's head has been fucked with.

[Swede]

49. You knewe him?

Tell me more.

[NashVegas]

50. I Could Have Been Him

30 years ago, had I not been able to distance myself from my church and my god.

[Swede]

53. Thank God you aren't a mass murderer,then.

Whew,that was close.

[Dorian Gray]

100. Who did he shoot

that fucked with his head? His own parents? His own friends? His own pastor?

Nope! They were innocent strangers. And if you had been standing there, it could have been you, too!

[gatorboy]

104. You admit to being that mentally weak willed?

You don't visit large crowds by chance, do you?

[onenote]

95. and you think the specific people he shot had "fucked with his head"?

The eighteen and sixteen year old sisters he shot in the parking lot of a church he didn't attend?

[Danger Mouse]

133. He shot innocent people. Sorry, no sympathy.

[JackRiddler]

54. Are you nuts?!

She's a security guard - she shot a gunman in the middle of a rampage.

[Nye Bevan]

109. "nuts" is not the most polite way of putting it

But certainly the OP does have an irrational phobia of security guards, whom he fears just as much as random mass murderers. Professional help would definitely be appropriate.

[JackRiddler]

140. True, but there are even less polite ways to put it, no?

[aikoaiko]

55. Damn, why do you disparage someone who defended herself and others from a gunman?

Not that my opinion probably matters to you at all, but I am ashamed of you.

[Mountainman]

58. Her actions saved lives! Get off your high horse for God's sake and take a powder!

[Marrah_G]

60. He is too busy despising all Christians

[Mountainman]

64. It is very similar to the right wind ideologues. Only this time it is a left wing ideologue.

It's hard on some people when faced with a situation that doesn't fit their black and white view of the world.

[slackmaster]

61. If liberalized concealed carry of firearms really posed those kinds of problems

It would already be obvious in statistics.

That is just not happening.

[piedmont]

62. Another gun-grabber is pissed because a killer's target wasn't a "gun-free" zone. nt

[DangerDave921]

66. What in the heck?

I really don't understand this post. So by your thinking, it would be better if the gunman shot 20 more people because we wouldn't have the danger of the armed security guard. That's just insane thinking.

Please tell me -- how many armed security officers or policemen have gone on shooting sprees?

You know what -- if some deranged gunman starts firing in crowded mall (or any other place) I'd rather there be an armed person around to try to take him out rather than just hope he doesn't shoot me.

[KingFlorez]

69. The man was shooting people

What was she supposed to do? Let him continue shooting? She was a security guard and did the right thing.

[Redneck Socialist]

73. LOL, yes, because...

not provoking someone who is ALREADY on a homicidal rampage should be the first thing on your mind. Heavens, they might get, oh, I don't know, even more homicidal.

She could have missed. yep, could have. Didn't. That's what training's for.

She could have been shot. Yep, could have. Quite likely would have, along with a whole bunch of other folks had she not responded.

48 states allow for concealed carry with varying degree of regulation and yet we're still waiting for the tidal wave of blood to flood our streets. Heck in Vermont, 16 year olds can carry with no permit what-so-ever and that state seems to get along just fine.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

74. Wow this is for those saying that this hero is not being

attacked relentlessly

"It scares me to no end that there are people walking around packing firearms, with "God" telling them what to do. "

Come on, its not like she walked into a temple and started firing because God told her to, its not even like she shot first and asked questions later because God told her to. She told the guy to put it down and when he did not she fired..

"We don't need a bunch of armed vigilantes taking the law into their own hands."

What, we need 1-5 hundred people in a church killed? This was not taking the law into her own hands this was appropriate self defense.. Should a victim of rape wait for the cops to come or try to beat the guy senseless herself? is that taking the law into her own hands?

"everything turned out okay - but her actions could have actually made things much worse."

Hmm a guy with a jacket full of ammo and a desire to kill walks into a crowded room.. How again should could have made things worse..

"Not to mention this woman was FIRED from her job as a police officer in Minnesota for lying about swearing at a bus driver while investigating an incident - she obviously has some issues herself."

Have you *seen* some of the language on DU? is cursing really that much of an issue... as to the lying how many people lie about an incident to keep their job. She was wrong to lie and to curse but the only 'issues' it displays is that she is human.

"I think we're starting to see a troubling trend in this country, with citizens arming themselves and taking the law into their own hands."

I dont think stopping someone in the process of killing people is 'taking the law into your own hands', its saving lives..

[Nye Bevan]

76. Security guards scare you just as much as crazed mass murderers?

Please get the help that you need.

This link provides some information on help with irrational phobias:

http://www.help-for.com/

[Catherine Vincent]

86. I rather someone like Jeanne Assam than Joe Horn. nt

[benEzra]

96. OK, let's see...

Person A has passed a Federal background check, a state background check, a mental health records check, had his prints run by the FBI (clean), taken classes on self-defense law, passed a written test on same administered by local law enforcement, demonstrated competence with a handgun on a shooting range (live fire) in front of an instructor, has twenty years' experience in the safe handling of firearms, competes regularly in IPSC/USPSA shooting competitions, is married, college educated, a homeowner, dad to a special-needs kid, his record is so clean that he squeaks when he walks (not even a speeding ticket), and he is sufficiently nonviolent that he has never even been in a fistfight outside of martial arts training.

Person B is a crazed 19-year-old who feels that it's his right to KILL anybody who he doesn't like, who shot two teenage girls and two twentysomething adults, and who wanted to take out 10 or 20 more innocent people if he could.

You're just as freaked out by person A as person B?

I suppose cognitive dissonance can be a powerful thing...

[Sanctified]

103. Why would someone be afraid of another person who caries a concealed weapon?

You probably come in contact with several people a day that have a concealed weapon and you never know it.

[beevul]

105. What an ignorant ignorant post.

"In this instance, everything turned out okay - but her actions could have actually made things much worse. She could have very easily missed and hit someone else, been shot herself, and further provoked the gunman. Not to mention this woman was FIRED from her job as a police officer in Minnesota for lying about swearing at a bus driver while investigating an incident - she obviously has some issues herself."

Her actions could have made things worse? Much worse? Lets see...this shooter was armed with 3 guns and a thousand rounds of ammunition. Its clear from the shooters postings, and the circumstancial evidence that he had 3 firearms and a thousand rounds of ammunition, exactly what his intent was. The WORST possible outcome, would have been for the shooter to expend that thousand rounds of ammunition against the people in the church, unconfronted.

Kindly explain how her actions could have made things worse...let alone MUCH worse, than that?


And just out of curiosity, whats your position on firearms?

[jody]

113. Your OP implies a strong commitment to "nonviolence". If that's your moral philosophy, then I

greatly admire your stance when you face armed, violent criminals.

Personally, I side with Oliver Cromwell who said "Keep your faith in God, but keep your powder dry."

Thats why I legally keep and carry a concealed handgun.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

115. jody,

please don't expect the rest of us to list any weapons we may or may not have.

Welcome to DU. Hope I don't end up on your "list", but I probably already have. MKJ

[jody]

116. Thanks for the welcome to DU but I've been here from the beginning. I said nothing about listing

weapons. What point are you trying to make?

I said nothing about ignore. What point are you trying to make?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

119. "I'll put you down as not protecting" etc, etc. Near the middle of the thread.

I guess when you put "someone down on" something, it's apparently not a list. Is it a tree stump? MKJ


On edit, well, if I didn't make your tree stump before, I probably have now.

[jody]

121. No, it's a figure of speech, a way of recognizing another person's position. Why do you try to

impute meaning to someone else's words when you don't know what those words mean?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

122. LOL, so I'll put you down as ....

um, naughty. :hi:

MKJ

[jody]

124. Why do you try to impute meaning to someone else's words when you don't know what those words mean?

:shrug:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

125. I'll put you down as "obtuse".

I'm sure you'll have your last "bewildered and baffled" post.

Again, welcome to DU, I'm just certain you're a dyed in the wool liberal. :-) MKJ

on edit, see ya at the tree stump!

[jody]

126. You intrude in my reply to BushOut06 and then pretend to be offended -- get a life kid! n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

144. If you'll just let me keep my life, I'm good.

I get a bit nervous engaging in debate with someone who wants it known up front they're armed and ready to shoot. MKJ

:-) MKJ

[Marrah_G]

146. paranoid and delusional-

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

147. Moi? Quest que cest?

:hi: MKJ

on edit, grammar.

[Marrah_G]

150. You are expressing fear because another DUer owns a gun

Then you take a common expression and in your mind you make it out to be some hit list.

It's bizarre and paranoid behavior.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

152. Mmmmhmmmm.

I'll put you down as quick to apply a DSM IV diagnosis extrapolated from a few posts on message board.

You sound like a sunny, delightful person, just based on your warm, empathetic posts here! MKJ

[Marrah_G]

154. You do that

And on that note I'll say have a nice Holiday.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

156. u2, Marrah. I generally love your posts.

You really are one of the good guys. I hope my apparently unhinged mental status doesn't diminish the genuineness of my remark.

BTW, we're all still reeling from the shootings out here, and I know folks who were terribly impacted. So, please, just understand that this military vet who was working on my own CCW is in a bit of emotional flux.

I'll try to not let your harsh words hurt too much. :toast: MKJ

[Marrah_G]

158. I don't think you are unhinged

I just think your post (on this topic) sounded very strange, and yes, paranoid and delusional.

I'm sorry if I came across as overly bitchy, but this is day 3 of quitting smoking and I'm rather short tempered and maybe a bit less choosey in my words.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

159. Hey,

S'OK.

I'm struggling with the sickening effect of the easy access to guns we are seeing(this very troubled kid amassed weapons over a year) and my own contribution to this gun driven society as a gun owner, myself.

After Columbine, I went through something very similar.

I KNOW that true change is not achieved through violence, but through enlightenment and love. Yet, growing up around guns and through my military time, and the fact that I know well many hunters for whom I have affection and respect, I am unable to broad brush as "bad" or "evil".

So, I can understand feeling a little bitchy and short tempered, believe that. :hug: MKJ

[fascisthunter]

185. I'd CAll Those Who Feel the Need to Carry and Conceal as Paranoid (nt)

[jody]

188. Real paranoids are those afraid of law-abiding citizens carrying guns for self-defense.

Paranoid: Exhibiting or characterized by extreme fear or distrust of others

[fascisthunter]

190. Nope... paranoids need to carry guns to feel safe

you are always afraid so you feel the need to carry a gun to protect yourself. Try living without one... can you? If not you might want to ask yourself why not? Stop projecting on the World and try to join it without THAT fear. It'll be ok.... you can do it!

[jody]

191. I assume you know SCOTUS says government is not obligated to protect a person unless she/he is in

custody.

I assume you also know about Violent Crime’

“An estimated 1,417,745 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2006.”
“There were an estimated 473.5 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants.”

Self-defense with firearms
*38% of the victims defending themselves with a firearm attacked the offender, and the others threatened the offender with the weapon.

*A fifth of the victims defending themselves with a firearm suffered an injury, compared to almost half of those who defended themselves with weapons other than a firearm or who had no weapon. Care should be used in interpreting these data because many aspects of crimes--including victim and offender characteristics, crime circumstances, and offender intent--contribute to the victims' injury outcomes.

The statistics show those who do not bear arms for self defense are 2.5 times more likely to be injured than those who bear arms for self-defense. DoJ says 82,500 victims of crime each year defend themselves with firearms.

You are a potential victim of crime and whether you chose to protect yourself is your personal problem.

You can call law-abiding citizens who keep and bear arms for self-defense “paranoid” if it makes you feel good.

I hope you don’t feel bad if someone calls you “naïve” because you ignore the facts about violent crime and choose to submit to violent criminals rather than protect yourself.

I also hope you don't feel bad when you face a violent criminal and a nearby armed citizen with a CCW does not come to your aid.

[gatorboy]

192. What the hell are you talking about?

Paranoia? What paranoia? This isn't some fucking hypothetical situation. People WERE gunned down! Jesus, the insanity never ends here...

[Maddy McCall]

164. Welcome to DU.

WTF? He's been here three years longer than you have...he's been here since DU was formed.

It is you being obtuse.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

182. Hey Maddy,

Thanks for the kind words. It's been a tough few days, for many of us out here. Support of fellow DU'ers makes it a little easier though. :-) MKJ

[Maddy McCall]

189. Maybe you should stay away from DU for awhile.

That's what I recommended to my Minnesota friends after the bridge collapse. That's what I did after my family, friends, and I went through Katrina.

:)

[Marrah_G]

145. List? what the heck are you talking about?

Where did the poster ask you to list weapons or claim to have some list?

Your post sounded extremely paranoid and delusional.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

148. LOL, the poster was "putting people down" on presumably a list, or category.

Apparently, when said poster says, "I'm putting you down as..." and then lists a particular category, it's not an actual list.

Who knew! MKJ

[Marrah_G]

149. I knew

It is a very common expression.

:eyes:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

151. And, you've put me down as "paranoid and delusional".

Perhaps that's a mere categorization? Or label?

Name calling? :shrug:
MKJ

[Marrah_G]

155. I've labeled your posts as sounding paranoid and delusional

It's a bit different then claiming you are paranoid and delusional.

Have a happy holiday.

:hi:

[Danger Mouse]

130. Wow. This is the most idiotic thing I've seen on DU in a long time.

What the hell was she supposed to do, you twit? LET him kill more people?
Oh, I'm sure if she hadn't drawn her weapon on him, he would've thrown down his guns and surrendered on the spot and politely waited for the police to arrive and take him away.
Made it worse? How in the hell could she have made it worse? Provoking him?? What, a guy is already shooting up a church, what's going to happen if you provoke him further? He'll spit bees?
Taking the law into her own hands...what, doing her job as an armed security job and protector is a problem to you?
Your logic is astounding...so here's the deal. If you're in a shopping mall, and some whacko starts shooting at you, and someone who is a concealed carrier is nearby, you should just politely let the armed whacko shoot you and your loved ones. after all, wouldn't want anyone taking the law into their own hands and saving any lives or anything.

[eleny]

132. Handling a gun after a 3 day fast sounds dangerous to me

Things went right in this instance. But I don't know how many people would choose her for armed duty knowing that she had been fasting for three days. I know I wouldn't.

[eallen]

134. Someone who has never killed an innocent is as bad as a serial murderer?

Just because they have used a gun in defense?

I don't get it.

:hippie:

[Alexander]

135. You realize that you need to jump through many hoops to have CCW, right?

You need psychiatric evaluations, letters of good character from the local police department, extensive background checks, letters of recommendation and quite a few references.

That's why people who have concealed-carry permits are statistically less likely to commit crimes than even the police.

So who do you trust? Someone who goes to all that trouble to get a permit, or a cop who doesn't have to?

:eyes:

[Rex]

136. God been telling people what to do for a long time now.

[QC]

139. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! n/t

[AX10]

141. My only reservation about her is how lightly she...

takes the entire horrific situation. You can tell that she is a fundie. THEY tend to believe that God wants them to kill.

I do believe she acted properly during the period of crisis.

[JVS]

142. I think you have a poor sense of perception regarding this

[joshcryer]

143. Posts like this scare me more than the gunman.

I mean it.

She could've missed, she could've got shot, uh, yeah, so the fuck what? He was going to kill hundreds of people!

[Alpharetta]

160. She was on private property at the property owner's request

Protecting the property owner's patrons from a deranged gunman who had been threatening them for weeks and had shot 3 (2 dead) earlier in the day.

I'm left of Kucinich and still I'm glad she did what she did.

[Tejas]

162. Republicans LOVE when you talk like that

"We don't need a bunch of armed vigilantes taking the law into their own hands."

"I think we're starting to see a troubling trend in this country, with citizens arming themselves and taking the law into their own hands."

Do you get a regular paycheck from the Brady's? You could you know. They just love euphemisms, "armed vigilantes" is a favorite of theirs, you'd fit right in.

[Maddy McCall]

165. Insane.

[Rockholm]

166. Why does a church need armed guards?

That is my question.

[Maddy McCall]

167. 1. Death threats against the pastor and members

2. Gunman on the loose with connections to the church
3. Bomb threats, arson threats
4. Services attended by 5000+ members each Sunday

[gatorboy]

168. Their disdain for Christianity has apparently blocked the logic portion of the brain.

[Maddy McCall]

169. Yes.

[Rockholm]

178. Maybe it's time to find another church.

Gee, my little Episcopal church pales in comparison.
This church must really be doing some whacked out things to be on the receiving end of what you mention.

[Danger Mouse]

184. Nice. Blame the victims much?

There are some really crazy people out there. Invariably, said crazy people will target innocent people for whatever reason...if they happen to be members of a church that said whacko has an issue with, why does that make the church whacked out?
Cause some nutjob had a problem with them? People shoot other people for cutting them off in traffic. They do all kinds of irrational shit.

[Maddy McCall]

187. I'm not going to argue whether or not the church is "doing something whacked" or not.

Black churches in Mississippi were getting arson threats in 1992-3 and then 2004-5. Two churches were burned to the ground, several were burned but not totally destroyed. A multiracial group of men and women stood watch at those black churches, armed.

According to your logic, those black churches must be "doing something whacked" to "deserve" to be burned down, right?

Or is it ok for some groups to defend their property and parishoners, but not others?

Maybe your little Episcopal church just hasn't received the threats yet that other churches have. Would you stand by and watch your pastor be murdered or your church be burned to the ground? I wouldn't.

If this had been any other church but the one that it was, the victims wouldn't be receiving the blame at DU as they have. NO ONE deserves to be murdered in cold blood in church, for any reason, period. If you feel differently, then maybe it is you who is "whacked," and not the people you seem to hate.

[Sanctified]

173. Doesn't a crazy guy entering the church shooting people...

answer your question.

[Rockholm]

179. Actually, it doesn't. Not by a long shot.

Given your rationale, then we are days away from armed guards patrolling malls, schools and parks.

Why does a CHURCH need an armed guard? Does your church have one?

[jody]

181. About "armed guards patrolling malls, schools and parks", that is normal in some cities where armed

gangs have forced some malls to close and caused economic decay of others.

Most malls have armed guards and I'll bet every mall you frequent is no exception.

[Danger Mouse]

186. On occasion, a psycho enters a church and kills people.

Tragically, it happened near me not too long ago, on more than one occasion. If the members of a church are feeling threatened, I would say they should sure as hell have some protection.

[jmg257]

174. Because - although Jesus could came back from the dead, the rest of us can't.

We should rather do what we can to keep the 1 life we have as long as possible.

[jody]

180. Minor point, many people have died and medical teams brought that person back. The story about

Jesus' resurrection is not the same, his resurrection was to life eternal, a promise that is recognized by most Christians when they say some variation of the Apostles’ Creed, “I believe in . . . the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.”

I'm one of those people who was lucky enough to have died and been brought back to life by superb medical specialists and many other DUers have also returned to life.

[AuntPatsy]

170. Its more than obvious this woman has issues, frankly I agree with you,

it scares me to that such people can find another way to play cop and legally hang on to their firearms....

It really upsets me when I hear people saying that God protected me???Does that mean your more important than the thousands of people daily world wide that get killed, raped and or mauled by who knows? The arrogance is what kills me that they believe themselves so much more important that God intervened just for them...

It reminds me of the idiots out there who swear that God helped them hit a home run and the like, amazing mentality and if you ask me, questionable mentality...

:eyes:

[TCJ70]

172. I think you're putting thoughts in her head...

..."Does that mean your more important than the thousands of people daily world wide that get killed, raped and or mauled by who knows?"

No. It means what it means. She feels that God protected her. She walked towards an armed gunman who was firing at her, and didn't get hit. If she thinks it's beyond comprehension that the guy would miss, then she chalks it up to God protecting her.

I don't think a situation like this even compares to someone thanking God for an award or a homerun...the stakes are just so much higher in this situation.

[onenote]

176. Does it bother you when someone says "thank god"

when, for instance, a lost child is found, or someone recovers from an illness, or narrowly escapes harm?

Is that really so different?

[jody]

177. Your post is not clear to me. Are you saying you would have preferred Assam had not been armed and

more people had died?

SCOTUS says government is not obligated to protect law-abiding citizens unless they are in custody so self-defense is a personal option.

None of us can pick the time and place when a violent criminal may attack us, so how do you propose to defend yourself?

Over 840,000 sworn law enforcement officers choose handguns as their tool for self-defense. They keep and bear arms as a privilege granted by government.

Millions of law-abiding citizens who keep and bear handguns for self-defense, do so because that's a natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right recognized by most state constitutions.

[Danger Mouse]

183. Was it a good thing that she prevented the armed psycho from killing even more people?

Yes or no?

[Rockholm]

195. Sure, but again I ask...Why does a CHURCH need protection?

A posted mentioned black churches in Mississippi needing protection at a time when arsonists were burning down places of worship. I get that. If this particular church was getting threats, I can see protection as warranted.
The larger question is just WHY were they receiving threats. And please don't say because the threat makers were anti-God. Please spare me that.

[jody]

196. You know the answer, because society has many people with enough hate toward particular groups that

some individual(s) are determined to kill the group.

It doesn't matter what the issue, whether white/black, black/hispanic, jew/muslim, atheist/christian, pro-abortion/anti-abortion and many others that are explosive to a few people who typically drift through life unnoticed until something ignites them.

As long as the probability is non-zero that a person or group will be attacked by a violent criminal and because SCOTUS says self-defense is a personal problem, then individuals/groups have a choice of either submitting to evil force as a few religions teach or exercising their natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for defense of self.

[ileus]

193. It was her job...she executed it fine. Being a Christian shouldn't be a sin to our party.

[ShaneGR]

194. I think on this one, the people who walked out of that church would disagree

If you were anywhere, a shopping mall, at work, at a sports game, walking the street, and someone started shooting random people I'd only hope that someone was there to save you like this lady did. Would you prefer that this woman ran away and let the other people in the church die? Ya, she's a fundie, I probably disagree with her on 99% of her beliefs.... but I'm glad she was there to save those people.