This is actually from a week ago - but significant though.

[Joe for Clark]

KIRKUK, Iraq (AP) - While the world focuses on Baghdad's security, a series of bombings here may be the long-feared start of a second deadly war in Iraq - this one between Kurds and Arabs, both with claims on a territory atop one of the world's largest oil reserves.

If the escalating violence in Kirkuk erupts into all-out fighting between heavily armed Kurdish and Arab groups, it could spark a wider conflict involving Turkey or Iran. That risk puts the United States in a bind, caught between ally Turkey, which is on the side of Arabs and ethnic Turkomen here, and the Kurds, another strong U.S. ally.

The issue is coming to a head because of a provision in the Iraqi constitution that calls for a referendum by year's end on Kirkuk's future. Arabs and Turkomen, backed by Turkey, want to put the vote off - worried about Kurdish dominance and more violence if the referendum is held and Kurds win.

But Kurds are determined to press ahead. They deny it's because of the black gold in the ground.

From me-
This weekend the bombings did intensify up north. When you follow the series of actions - they tend north. And probably the major thing in this - there is a lot more to this "problem" in Iraq than religious sects. There is a serious ethnic divide between arab and non-arab groups. And those divides meet right in the middle of a large oil reserve - And it won't take much to set it off.

I really think some trouble makers that got flushed out of Baghdad went there, toward Kirkuk. And frankly, people that went north to do this - start this - are indeed probably the same people we have an issue with from 911. They need to be killed on site. Before they can start something a lot bigger - something we can't walk away from.

I have no issue with an Iraqi civil war - I don't care - I want our kids pulled out of there - it is none of our business. But I am pretty sure - if some group starts a fire up there right now we will never walk away. This needs to be cut off at the source. There are extreme consequences for failure to get this one right.

Joe

[cui bono]

1. 60 Minutes ran a piece on Kurdistan last night.

It didn't mention any of this violence. It did mention the oil fields and that Kirkuk would pose a problem if the Kurds decided they wanted to secede. But it showed Kurdistan as being totally peaceful, building bowling alleys and opera houses. I wonder when they shot it, could be out of date?

[Joe for Clark]

2. The 60 minutes piece was very accurate - as far as I know.

And what I know is accurate up to the time the 3/2 moved south to cover Baghdad - so November.

But those oil fields aren't quite in Kirkuk - and Kirkuk is the out area of Kurdish control. The oil fields are a little south.

I'd remember this too - the Kurds are raising capital, even in the United States, for their development. So there is a slant to it.

All that said - the Kurds are the "normal" people over there, they really are. I have no problem with the United States moving substantial numbers of soldiers in the Kurd area - at all.

They do wear blue jeans and listen to american music - and it is green up there. I think our kids would be ok there and I think Turkey will be ok with it as long as we are there.

Joe

[northofdenali]

3. Joe, how much worse can it get?

I am SCARED. I want our troops out. I want our civilians out. Hell, I even want Halliburton employees out!! :scared:

[Joe for Clark]

4. SO much worse.

You know I am a pacifist - I think the only killing justified is in self defense. I don't believe in guns. I don't believe in capital punishment.

And I am saying - Groups of males showing up in the north should be killed on site.

A couple years ago they found a recruiting video for Al Queida - of course the kids copied it and brought it home. I saw it. I couldn't watch it all the way thru - it was so graphic. I think there are two big things going on here. There is a civil war in Iraq - I don't even know who can doubt that now - and to me it has been very clear for at least two years that has been happening. But overlaying this - those same SOBs that killed ours in NYC have been spurring this on.

I don't want anything to do with any civil war - and at the same time I want people capable of killing our people dead. I don't want any prisoners. I think it is not in our best interests to even try and capture them. And riht now they have a golden opportunity up north - they know that.

Right now - this can blow up in the worst way imaginable. Not a civil war in Iraq - but a regional war - a war that can pit us against NATO allies - worse.

We need to get out of there right now. We have to deal with the people that hurt us - we do - but not there and not now.

Joe

[northofdenali]

5. I'm afraid it will come to just that -

maybe Lebanon will have the sense to stay out of it. But Syria? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? They're all just barely restrained as it is. And George W. FUCKING Bush started it all.

If he'd kept to the point in Afghanistan, I really wouldn't worry much.

As it is, I'm terrified. I think I need a hug!

[Joe for Clark]

6. Big Hug!!

Yeah, this is a cluster fuck of huge proportions.

It is pretty cold comfort right now - but certainly old W did start it.

Scares the hell out of me - and I was never that worried when the USSR was the potential adversary.

I remember when my dad used to sit in fighter bombers waiting for the Russian attack - cause I know he would be the first one to tell you they ain't coming. And he was always right.

And he fought a war. He knew when they were coming.

Watch the north of Iraq - I am not a fighter pilot, just a history student. But if it does start now it starts there.

Joe

[northofdenali]

7. My daddy was Army Air Corps, then Air Force, then OSS

wound up working at NASA. We lived in Florida. Yep, I remember all the fears, but I don't remember being scared.

Now I'm scared.

Oh, I remembered this little smilie from about 2002 - and I found it! You're welcome to copy - :hug:

[Joe for Clark]

8. Sounds like we have a lot in common.

Dad was AAC, pulled into the AF in Korea.

Thanks - I will copy it.

And PS - I was never afraid then either - and I am now!!

Joe