I can't picture myself getting out the vote for Hillary

[undeterred]

I am a Democrat and I want a Democrat for President. I think she's intelligent and qualified. But she's not what the country needs. I think she will take us furthur away from where we need to go. I have never bashed Hillary here at DU and although I am a Kucinich supporter I've always had a laid back approach about the primaries. I always figured it was like an arranged marriage- you choose to love whoever gets picked for you.

I chose to love Al Gore and John Kerry and I still love them both, big time. I could love Obama or Edwards or Kucinich or Biden or Dodd. But damn it, I know I can't love Hillary. I don't trust her. I hate the sexism against her. But I also hate that she is a corporatist and has sold her soul.

If I have to work for her and vote for her I will. But its unimaginable and I hope I don't have to.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I feel the same. If she is the only choice, I'll vote for her

However, she's our weakest link, too right wing, and not someone that should run on our behalf.

[wyldwolf]

2. "I think she will take us furthur away from where we need to go." On what do you base this on?

[undeterred]

7. Health care, for one thing.

She wants to keep the profit motive in it. She gets loads of money from the health care industry.

We need a doctor and patient run system with the profit motive removed- she once had the right idea and now its gone. Hillary is not a progressive about health care or anything else.

[wyldwolf]

34. so you think her health care system, which experts say is better than most...

..including Obama's, would take us further away from where "we" need to be than the current system we have in place now?

Hillary is not a progressive about health care or anything else.

Then the bulk of her primary opponents are not, either. But I consider that a good thing.

[eridani]

44. All the smug healthy fuckers generally do--it's a small minority accounting for most of the costs

Private insurance exists to divert money from the care of the sick minority into their pockets, which really ought to be a crime.

[undeterred]

45. exactly

No tears from me for insurance companies going out of business... I had a friend who died of ovarian cancer because she had no insurance and my tears are for her and the other uninsured who are at risk.

[wyldwolf]

46. yeah, that's all nice and clever, but not relevant to the conversation

Is someone refusing to say Hillary Clinton, overall, and specifically her healthcare system, would be WORSE than what we currently have under GW Bush. Is the OP going to say that with a straight face?

[undeterred]

48. Maybe it won't be any better than what we got with Bill Clinton.

Empty promises, for the most part.

[wyldwolf]

51. I 'll take it, for the most part. But do I get an answer to the question???

Why are you avoiding it?

[undeterred]

55. How much is she paying you?

I can't believe anyone on Democratic Underground would defend her for free.

[wyldwolf]

56. in other words, you'll avoid answering the question.

Of course, no one would pay you for your work here. You're not good enough at it.

[eridani]

52. Yes, it would be. Mandated insurance is worse than no insurance at all at lower income levels

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2007/september/health_reform_failur.php

And 244,000 of Massachusetts uninsured get zero assistance –just a stiff fine if they don’t buy coverage. A couple in their late 50s faces a minimum premium of $8,638 annually, for a policy with no drug coverage at all and a $2,000 deductible per person before insurance even kicks in. Such skimpy yet costly coverage is, in many cases, worse than no coverage at all. Illness will still bring crippling medical bills—but the $8,638 annual premium will empty their bank accounts even before the bills start arriving. Little wonder that barely 2 percent of those required to buy such coverage have thus far signed up.

While the middle class sinks, the health reform law has buoyed our state’s wealthiest health institutions. Hospitals like Massachusetts General are reporting record profits and enjoying rate increases tucked into the reform package. Blue Cross and other insurers that lobbied hard for the law stand to gain billions from the reform, which shrinks their contribution to the state’s free care pool and will force hundreds of thousands to purchase their defective products. Meanwhile, new rules for the free care pool will drastically cut funding for the hundreds of thousands who remain uninsured, and for the safety-net hospitals and clinics that care for them. (Disclosure --we’ve practiced for the past 25 years at a public hospital that is currently undergoing massive budget cuts.)

Health reform built on private insurance isn’t working and can’t work; it costs too much and delivers too little. At present, bureaucracy consumes 31 percent of each healthcare dollar. The Connector—the new state agency created to broker coverage under the reform law—is adding another 4.5 percent to the already sky-high overhead charged by private insurers. Administrative costs at Blue Cross are nearly five times higher than Medicare’s and 11 times those in Canada’s single payer system. Single payer reform could save $7.7 billion annually on paperwork and insurance profits in Massachusetts, enough to cover all of the uninsured and to upgrade coverage for the rest of us.

[wyldwolf]

57. questions for you

1. Whose plan, of the top 3, do you think is better and why?
2. Do you agree with the OP that Hillary presidency would take us further away from where we need to be than Bush did? If so, why?

[eridani]

64. 1. All include private insurance, and are therefore unacceptable

This isn't merely lefty stubbornness--it's a reflection of the proven reality that when you include them (as Clinton did in 1994) they will screw you over anyway. Edwards has proposed that insurers be forbidden by law to exclude high risks, and also that they be forbidden to deny care. Since those two items are the basic foundation of private insurance, they will never allow it--the Edwards plan will be watered down get rid of it, and even then the insurers are likely to pull a 1994 again. The reality is that the insurers are Lucy, and the leading candidates are proposing to be Charlie Brown yet again, with our health care in the role of the football.

2. I'm not really sure. I'm confident that she'd stop the war on science, put further attacks on reproductive rights off the table, and start appointing non-whackjob judges. Those things would help, and would be worth voting for her over a Repub or Bloomberg, but they are nowhere near enough to cope with the incipient disasters of global warming, peak oil, and a major financial meltdown. The simple fact of the matter is that we can no longer afford to to continue the project of dominating the rest of the world by miltary force. The Soviets and British gave it up on the grounds of expense, and we'll have to do the same. None of the frontrunners agree, which is why the MSM has chosen them as frontrunners. Starting from the disastrous place that Bush has left us in, they will continue moving his way, only more slowly. Better than fast, but nowhere near good enough. What do you suppose that the defense industry is expecting from Clinton that they have made her first in donations from them, including all the Republican candidates?

[lame54]

3. She is my last choice - but, i will support her

let's hope it doesn't come to that

[MNDemNY]

4. As a fellow supporter of Dennis,

Seeing as one would have trouble pounding a nail between the positions of BHO and HRC, why do you feel better supporting BHO over HRC?

[undeterred]

11. I'm more personally comfortable with him

I lived in the same neighborhood when I was at University of Chicago and knew people who knew him personally, went to his church, etc. Brilliance and humility, I guess.

[MNDemNY]

22. So, honestly then, for you it's mostly a personality thing?

[undeterred]

24. No its an issues thing

But where two are close on issues personality makes the difference.

[AlCzervik]

5. i'm not voting for her in the primaries but if she wins the nod i'll support her.

[aquart]

6. How nice that you hate the sexism against her.

I'm sure it hasn't influenced you in the slightest in believing she's "sold her soul" as opposed to our heaven-bound male candidates. WILL YOU LISTEN TO YOURSELF?

[libnnc]

16. In the '04 primaries, who did you support?

I'm just curious.

[undeterred]

20. Honestly, no one.

I don't think I even voted. I really just watched the whole process. I remember liking Gephardt but I was just watching to learn about them. I don't even remember Kucinich, although I do remember John Edwards. Wisconsin is late in the process and before that I lived in Illinois.

[undeterred]

18. I am female and I am not sexist against her

but like a lot of people I don't trust her. She is too calculated and has reinvented herself too many times. Its like you're never sure who you're dealing with. Bill Clinton is the same way, only he is much smoother at it, so its not as jarring with him.

[ElizabethDC]

8. Well, I can't picture myself getting out the vote for Obama

I'll vote for him, sure, but working for him would push it a bit too far for me. All I can do to avoid that situation is to support my candidate as much as I can right now, and hope for the best. The rest will have to come later.

[emilyg]

21. Same here.

[onehandle]

9. Think of Freeper heads exploding as she is sworn in.

She may not be my first choice, but I'll enjoy the pain of the enemies of democracy.

[undeterred]

13. Or I'll think of a Repuke being sworn in.

That might work.

[onehandle]

15. That always works for me. nt

[PurityOfEssence]

17. Sadly, that's much of the impetus behind her support. It's infantile.

I'm not insulting you here, since I presume you're looking on the bright side of the situation, but many are consumed with precisely this infantile vengeance drive, and it's got us on the road to ruin.

[onehandle]

19. Always look on the bright side of life...

Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...

If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath

Life's a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

And always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the right side of life...
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the bright side of life...
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life...
(I mean - what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life...

[PassingFair]

43. That's the bright light in the picture for me.

Of course, it's obscured by the probability of
broadened killing and corporate rapine in the
Middle East and South America.

But hey, guess that's not a problem, as long
as there's a (D) after the company name.

[BlueManDude]

10. Not only will she lose - but she will kill the party in downballot races.

I like Hillary Clinton, think she's a fine Senator - but she's electoral poison on a national ballot.

[undeterred]

14. I think she'd be a fine president if she "got" the crisis we're in

but I don't think she does.

[eridani]

53. She doesn't have a clue. Kucinich gets more of it--

--but I think even he doesn't get it entirely.

[Laurab]

12. It's unfortunate but I feel the same way.

I don't know if I could work for her, but I will vote for her if she's the nominee. And no matter how many times I listen to her, watch her, it doesn't change. I don't trust her. Her supporters on here, for the most part, inspire me to like her even less.

You're not alone, anyway.

[K Gardner]

23. Unimaginable is how I feel about it. n/t

[Raine]

25. I can't picture myself even getting out to vote

for her. *IF* she gets the nomination I will have a big moral decision as to what to do...hold my nose and vote for her or leave it blank. If she actually became president I think it would ruin the Democrats from ever getting the office again.

[Poiuyt]

26. It bothers me too, but I just picture this, then I have no trouble

[Middle finga]

29. It would be a total nightmare in america if one of those clowns

won the election.

[undeterred]

30. ...

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[earthlover]

32. The above clowns are the reason NOT to nominate Hillary.

She will most likely lose. That means....unless I am missing something....that one of those in the picture above will be our next president!

I would vote for Hillary. I usually work in November too. However, it it becomes the blowout I predict it will be, don't expect everyone to go out there and work for a lost cause.

I wish Democrats would take into consideration us Democrats who are tired of volunteering for candidates with little chance of winning.

Give us someone who has a chance. Any of the Democratic candidates...except Hillary....could win.

[babylonsister]

27. Thank you, for everything you said that reflects how I feel. nt

[Didereaux]

28. The -GOAL- ANYONE but another republican!!

[Neecy]

31. it depends....

If she gets the nomination by smearing and attacking and destroying a fellow Democrat, I won't do a thing for her. I've seen what her supporters have done here (concern trolling, etc. plus one of the most vicious videos ever posted against a Democrat on DU over in the videos topic) and it just turns my stomach. I won't feed Hillary's 'power at any price' fix. I'll barely be able to vote for her, and even that's up in the air.

[undeterred]

33. I didn't even know about stuff like that

and I had reservations.

[LWolf]

35. I don't HAVE to do anything.

Hopefully, the scenario you are struggling with will not happen.

If it does, I will certainly not be working for Hillary, or voting for her.

I don't believe I would actively campaign against her. I'd just drop the election out of my life until it was time to mark my ballot, write in a better Democrat, put it in the mail, and carry on with life.

[undeterred]

36. For me its a matter of loving my country, not loving Hillary or the Democratic party.

I am not in love with the Democratic party. When I criticize a Democrat its not because I dislike the Democratic party, its because I love my country more. And when I help out a Democrat I'm not really crazy about, its not because I'm in love with the Democratic party, its because I love my country more. And when all is said and done, in a two party system I think the Democratic Party is better for this country than the Republican Party. Much better.

[LWolf]

37. Many people feel that way; you are not alone.

When I think of "my country," I think of the land, not the people or the government. I honor the thinkers who dared to put forth a constitution whose ideals have yet to be realized. I honor thinkers and doers from any and every nation who work to help my species evolve positively. I'm really more concerned with the planet as a whole than any one government system.

I'm not a nationalist nor a patriot, but a matriot.

I don't see the Democratic Party as the savior of the world. I am a registered Democrat, and I am willing to work with the party when I see them working for the greater good. From a larger perspective, though, I'm seeing corruption and corporate control that is not good for the nation or the planet. If the Democratic Party has any chance of moving us forward in a positive way, we've got to hold them to a higher standard than being "the lesser of two evils." We've got to hold them to the standard of being of the people, by the people, and for the people and the planet. Those Democrats who are willing to meet that higher standard will get my vote. Those who I don't believe will do so, won't.

[undeterred]

39. ...I think Hillary used to be there, now I'm not sure...

I appreciate your comments very much.

[LWolf]

42. You are welcome, of course.

It's a serious process for each of us, trying to find our place in the shifting political sands around us. I would like to honor and respect the process for each and every one of us, where ever we find ourselves on the journey.

[scarletwoman]

40. Wow. You are the only DUer I've ever seen use the word, "matriot" besides myself!

I first joined DU shortly after 9/11, although I had been reading here now and again for a few months before that.

In those early post-9/11 days -- when "patriotism" had become a reflexive frenzy, a bludgeon being used to beat people into submission -- I wrote a number of posts declaring myself a "matriot"; a partisan for Mother Earth, first, and only.

I'm so delighted to see someone else use that word!

Anyway, your post is absolutely right on, I feel the same way. Thanks for saying it so well.

sw

[LWolf]

41. You are welcome.

From one matriot to another:

:hug:

[Evergreen Emerald]

38. explain the difference in the political stances between Gore and Clinton?

[wyldwolf]

47. no one will answer that

The OP's intention was another "progressive"* circle jerk.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Very little difference between them, which is why I don't like either one

Gore is an old DLCer who supported Reagan most of the time in the 1980s.

[wyldwolf]

50. you and I agree there is very little difference.

[eridani]

54. Gore 2000 or Gore 2008?

Not much difference in the 2000 version, but the 2008 version is far more visionary. Gore now supports single payer, which by itself is a huge differenct.

[wyldwolf]

58. It's very easy to support "visionary" things when you don't have to answer to the electorate.

But that's just one issue. Where are the major differences?

[eridani]

61. The electorate seems to be pretty enthusiastic about the issues Gore has raised

What is it about renewable energy and real universal health care that voters don't like?

Or did you mean "answering to our One Percenter overlords?

[rAVES]

59. the Hillbots talking point that "only college kids and Hippies oppose her" is total rubbish btw

Ive read several variants of this argument over the course of the last few months...

Do not be brow beat by these people.. the DLC does not have your interests at heart..

They will use her presidency to further damage the US on the world stage by ramming their neoliberal policy's down the throat of the developing world, and of course yours too.

Her Health plan does not stand up to the daylight, mandating you to purchase ridiculously priced premiums from corporations who are out to make profit from you, not to care whether you live or die. Will the great president Clinton help you pay your Premiums? or help you pay the fine when you try dodging it?

My Fiance currently is paying 250 a month for coverage, that barley covers anything, She has a serious corneal issue, and has had to fork out nine thousand dollars twice for transplants, with a possible third again on the way due to a problem with her first one, so thats a preexisting, her eyes aren't covered nor her ridiculously expensive eye medicine. that shit will not change under Clinton.

1+1=2 the Insurance industry does not, and would not give all that money to a candidate that was out to hurt their profits.. no way no how.

Folks need not even look twice at her plan, just look at her contributions, then look at Dennis Kucinich's plan. universal single payer not for profit health care (supported by the vast majority of dems or 60% of Americans). and look at his contributions from the industry. instantly you will see the problem.

On matters of war and peace, I mean what the hell is she thinking? I was shouting and screaming back in 03 that the WMD stuff about Iraq was false rubbish, that Bush wanted in there because of the Oil ect, as where millions of others, now.. how can you seriously say that Hillary is great leader and that she believed the neocon lies? its one or the other, Admit she wanted the war, or that shes unfit to lead. either way, its not good. she has been pretty consistent in her support of the war.

The women makes me so frigging angry.. her supporters too.

[fascisthunter]

60. She's a Republican in Democratic clothing

Never mind getting out the vote for her, I know I can't vote for.

[Gloria]

62. I feel the same about Hillary AND (perish the thought!!) Obama

He doesn't turn me on at all...I have fears of mass hoodwinking going on from both of these people.

[Marr]

63. If Clinton gets the nomination, she will lose.

And it will be the fault of the corporate wing of the party once again. Of course, I'm sure they'll just go right back to yelping about how the left is simultaneously irrelevant *and* to blame.

I will not vote for Hillary Clinton. I'm not voting for someone who does not represent my views in the slightest, just because she puts a "D" on her name.