Should "ex-gays" be shunned?

[NorthernSpy]

People have once again started bringing up the issue of Donnie McClurkin, a Gospel singer who performed at an event held to boost support for the Obama campaign. Obama publicly took exception to McGlurkin's views on homosexuality, but refused to shun the man himself.


This ignited a firestorm. (On DU, anyway.)


So, I'm asking point-blank: what exactly do we want? Should people claiming to be "ex-gay" be ostracized somehow? Yes or no, and why or why not? If yes, what form should the ostracism take?


What do you think?




(edited: it's McClurkin, not McGlurkin! :dunce: )

[SacredCow]

1. ...

:popcorn:

[Richard Steele]

9. Hey, scoot over!

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[SacredCow]

20. Did you turn off your cell phone?

I don't want my experience to be interrupted!!!

[Hekate]

45. More butter?

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hekate

[SacredCow]

53. Please....

Candy?

[gateley]

2. "Ex Gay" usually means a religious conversion. And I usually steer clear of ANY 'converts'.

[Raejeanowl]

15. I Think You've Caught The Defining Factor There

Why shun anyone who feels they've found their true self (straight to gay, gay to straight, etc.), but when that old proselytizing demon comes out, head for the tall timber!!!

Unfortunately, some of the most disdainful things I've heard said about ex-gays came from the mouths of homosexuals. You'd like to hope for a little more unconditional compassion from that quarter, wouldn't you?

Perhaps it's the "ex" mantle. Maybe we need to say "born-again straight."

:evilgrin:

[dbackjon]

29. From our quarter?

Why should we treat them with anything BUT pity and disdain?? These brain-washed people, who have bought the LIES of the religious reich, are a danger to themselves and to others. They try to "convert" others, and lead to many, many suicides.

[ThomCat]

48. Why should we show compassion for anyone who's mission

is to demonize us for being who we are? The whole mission of "ex-gays" is to convince us that we're wrong in God's eyes for being who we are, and need to
1. Find their god and their religion
2. Stop being who we are.

What kind of compassion are you expecting? x(

[TommyO]

55. When "ex-gays" speak out against gay people and their civil rights

You're damned right I'll be disdainful of them and their agenda.

[Raejeanowl]

62. dbackjon, ThomCat and TommyO

I hear you loud and clear about the issue of anyone ATTACKING gays and their civil rights, and I think ex-gay "insensitivity" would be a gross understatement if anyone's self-flagellation extended to these extremes.

It's a rather pathetic analogy, I know, but perhaps I feel the same way when successful dieters show "before" pictures that look a little too much like me and refer to the "disgusting fat slob" they used to be. Well, congratulations on finding your true self, but I still have my pride and self-esteem, and you have no lock on superiority.

However, I feel that all three of you missed what I was saying. Was I too subtle, or has this issue deprived people of their sense of irony? I apologize, in any event, but please be patient with me.

I think it is just as possible to live most of one's life believing you are gay and living as a gay, and evolving toward a different conclusion at some later point, as it is to live most of one's life straight and discover otherwise. This presumes nothing about inborn characteristics expressed or not expressed, but certainly some strong social or behavioral influence coming to bear that clouds the question.

It is unfortunate that there is little acceptance of that possibility from the gay community. Actually, I feel more strongly than that, but perhaps gay pride isn't quite there yet. Kind of like me accepting my size, reveling in it, and not feeling insulted when someone else repudiates the same.

I don't see why not. Why is that not possible except as a conspiracy of religiously motivated self-delusion? How then does one deal with agnostic or atheistic ex-gays?

My born-again straight remark was completely sardonic. I do not condone scripturally-based attempts to convert of sexual orientation.

[Buzz Clik]

3. No, but ex-wives and ex-girlfriends should at least be silenced.

[karlrschneider]

4. Depends. What caliber shun did you have in mind?

...

[LakeSamish706]

5. I'm no expert in this field, but as far as I know being gay is not a learned...

behavior.... If your gay your gay period! It probably is possible to be bi-sexual and with discipline lean one way or another, but I don't think you are "cured" of being gay... Just my thoughts.

[Cha]

10. Also, what's wrong

with being Gay? Who says Hetros are the only way to go?

[LakeSamish706]

11. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with being gay ... I hope that there...

wasn't anything in my post that suggested that there was... All I'm saying is that people don't wake up one morning and choose to be gay....

[Cha]

17. No there wasn't, sorry...

I was adding that:) I'm glad you made that point!

[NorthernSpy]

13. that's why I was careful to phrase it as people "claiming to be ex-gay"...

Well, they say they're ex-gay. Whether that means that they're actually functioning well as heterosexuals is not something we'd necessarily know in many cases.

So we might have to reserve judgement on that aspect for lack of information. We'll just start with "claims to be ex-gay", and go from there.

[Hydra]

6. Very few people are honestly Ex-gay

Most of the people who claim to be are doing it on the side, and claiming not to. So:

True Ex-gay: It's his/her business. Don't bother them

Claiming ex-gay: They're trying to score points- stomp them

[BushOut06]

46. I don't believe there is any such thing as "ex-gay"

If anything, it's homosexuals undergoing a religious conversion, and deciding to repress their homosexuality. They might not acting on their "gayness", but it's still there.

[Didereaux]

7. well let me put it this way, I ain't gonna put...

my health, or financial affairs in ones hands, and I would not like to have them with access to rockets and things that go boom.

[Cha]

8. Yeah, if they're going

to take a Hate Stance once they fucking "find themselves". It's not like an ex-druggie or ex-alkie or ex-ciggie peep. There's nothing wrong with being GAY so :wtf:?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. yup.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. if they refer to gayness as a disease from which they were cured

then they are bigots in the ugliest way and should be treated as such.

[Orsino]

44. Yeah. This also brands them as liars.

Sexual preference may be malleable, but it doesn't happen without self-examination. The "disease" meme wouldn't survive such scrutiny.

[ThomCat]

49. Yes. Just because they claim religion as a justification

some people want to give them the same pass that all bigots with faith seem to get. x(

[ColbertWatcher]

16. No such thing

Despite there being a whole internets tube covering it (http://wikiality.com/Ex-gay) it really doesn't exist.

A person can call themselves "ex-gay" only because they got "caught" being gay. Then they go in front of their congregation and proclaim their ex-gayness and all is forgiven.

But seriously, there is no such thing.

Ostracism should take the form of laughter, finger pointing and songs by the Village People or Barbra Streisand with lots of dancing and more laughter. And maybe some signs saying things like "We don't believe you!"

Oh, and maybe donations in their name to gay-rights organizations, like PFLAG or the legal defense fund (I think it's called Lambda something?)

[JuniperLea]

18. No one, short of murderers, should be shunned...

But I'll bet dimes to donuts that anyone who claims to be an ex-gay person is a liar.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. i'd also like to point out, if society was more accepting of gays

there would be no ex gay movement.

its easy to point a finger at ex gays because they are so strikingly bizarre but i would like to point out that they are reflecting what the vast majority of society truly wish. that the gays would give up their deviance and turn straight.

its kind of like mocking the anorexic while ignoring a culture that promotes fatty foods and skinny bodies at the same time.

[LakeSamish706]

23. Having worked in a hotel environment that consisted of approx.

65% gay and lesbian workers, I certainly have no problem with gay/lesbian people.... The only time that I take exception (has happened to me) is when a gay person attempts to hit on me personally and won't back off even though they know that I am not gay.... That sort of ranks right up there with JW's pushing there religion....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. yeah this is also why i find most straight men unbearable.

yeah, i know i have great tits, but they arent for you. is that so hard to get?


regardless of your particular industry, society at large is homophobic.

[LakeSamish706]

27. Yep, I agree with your point.... and it does happen in that light as well. n/t

[cboy4]

21. That's a very broad question.....First of all, referring

to McClurkin as simply "ex-gay," is like referring to a bank robber as simply a money courier.

In his book Eternal Victim, Eternal Victor McClurkin wrote that homosexuality is a spiritual issue and thus one can be "delivered" from it by God;

"The abnormal use of my sexuality continued until I came to realize that I was broken and that homosexuality was not God's intention... for my masculinity."

He then describes himself as going through a process by which he became "a saved and sanctified man". McClurkin has stated that homosexuality is a curse and that gays "are trying to kill our children."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_McClurkin

McClurkin severely harms the civil liberty advancements of gays and lesbians by actively campaigning against us. He is a rabid, notorious homophobe, and the only thing more despicable to gay people than a rabid homophobe is a rabid homophobe who is one of our own.

It would be a like a black person preaching that black people are nothing but a bunch of evil people who collect welfare and rob liquor stores....and then running off to join the Ku Klux Klan.

You get the idea.

So he should be shunned. Absolutely.

Other so called "ex-gays" (and I use the words "so-called") because there's no such thing (since homosexuality is not a choice), should not be shunned as long as they don't attempt to derail gay civil liberties. Confused people like that need outreach. They're troubled people who need someone to tell them that they're not the evil people they've been told they are.

Now, I hadn't heard "People have once again started bringing up the issue of Donnie McGlurkin, a Gospel singer who performed at an event held to boost support for the Obama campaign."

You're saying Obama supporters are bringing this up? Or are you saying the anti-gay crusaders are bringing this up?

[NorthernSpy]

28. I believe McClurkin actually made the "killing our children" remark in the context...

... of a discussion on pedophiles. That was from a 700 Club interview, wasn't it? At least, I think that's what I've read about that particular remark.


Apart from that, McClurkin's opinions on sexuality are part and parcel of his Christian beliefs.

[dbackjon]

31. Which is better???? Too many wakcos try to associate homosexuality with pedophilia

[NorthernSpy]

35. hey -- I'm just trying to be accurate...

It's up to you to judge whether McClurkin deserves ostracism, and whether other "ex-gays" deserve ostracism, and what that ostracism should consist of.

[cboy4]

36. Uh, no. He was discussing homosexuality on the

show in 2004 and he said:

"I'm not in the mood to play with those who are trying to kill our children."

And here we go again with people bringing up pedophilia while discussing homosexuality. :argh:

[NorthernSpy]

38. McClurkin said he was raped, and that was the actual context of that remark...

That's what I get from Keith Boykin's comments on the issue, and he can hardly be said to be friendly to McClurkin or anyone who associates with McClurkin.


I'm not sure that he was talking about gays per se in that instance, so I don't think you can paraphrase his remark as "gays are trying to kill our children", or whatever. But he does seem to associate homosexuality and child molestation, in the sense that he believes that his molestation was responsible for his sexual orientation developing the way it did.



http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2005/09/30/is_donnie_mcclu

[cboy4]

41. So let's for argument sake say McClurkin was raped.

He has no right to infer/imply/insinuate that gay people are therefore a threat to (trying to kill) our children any more than someone robbed by a black person has the right to say black people are a threat to others.

The bottom line is McClurkin is a hateful homophobe who needs psychological help.

And this was the person Obama embraced, even though Obama was warned repeatedly to stay away -- that it was not worth getting involved.

[NorthernSpy]

42. but that's just it: I'm not trying to argue the matter...

Just trying to offer factual clarification on this point, so that people have an clear picture of what they're voting for or against. There was an issue of whether the Wikipedia article contained an inaccurate paraphrase, so I spoke up.


That's all.

[cboy4]

43. 10-4

Thanks for the clarification.

[davidinalameda]

85. maybe his narrow understanding of Christianity

and I really wish that people would stop blaming homophobia on Christianity

Jesus never said word one about gays nor lesbians nor anything else; it was Paul who made comments which have been misunderstood for the last two thousand years

[Angela Shelley]

22. Shunning anyone on the basis of his or her sexual preference

(be it past, present, or in the future) is ignorance at the highest level.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. the ex gay movement is not a sexual orientation.

its a movement trying to convince gay people that their live/love is immoral and they should convert to straightness.

[Angela Shelley]

32. Thanks lionesspriyanka for the explanation.

I think that´s freaky, convincing someone to change their sexual preference / orientation.

[originalpckelly]

25. Shunning? What the fuck are we Amish?

[NorthernSpy]

33. lots of societies practice shunning...

"Shunning" seemed to fit what some people apparently wanted done to this McClurkin guy, so that's how I phrased the question.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

57. what a load of crap, do you want obama to invite the KKK to speak at his events too?

[NorthernSpy]

65. WTF?

How did you get any of that from what I said?


I wrote that lots of societies practice shunning. I said that some people seemed to want McClurkin shunned.


Is either of those statements untrue?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. people object to mcclurkin taking a role in obama's campaign

and he is not just any ex gay. he is a homophobic ex gay.

he doesnt need to be shunned he just needs to NOT MC a democratic event.

[NorthernSpy]

73. publicly refusing association with McClurkin does sound like shunning...

... in my opinion.


So I'm guessing that you'd probably favor choice #3 in the poll.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. in as much as we 'shun' the kkk i think we should shun homophobes too. nt

[Touchdown]

51. No! Stephen King lovers!

or is that Shining? :dunce:

[rAVES]

30. If someone wants to live a life long lie and eventually die young from the ball of self hate

in there stomach then so be it...

[terrya]

34. Yes, they should.

They're the ones who are buying into this "homosexuality needs to be cured" bullshit.

I don't know how they would be shunned. But they sure as fuck shouldn't be given a prominent place at a fundraiser sponsored by a Democratic Presidential candidate.

[timtom]

37. Some fairly predictable results here.

I have no horse in this race, but everyone is free to shun whomever they please.

For me and my house, we shun only those who advocate wholesale murder and participate willingly in the emptying of my nation's coffers and those who would strip us of our constitutional rights.

[Touchdown]

39. Look up "Truth in Love" campaigns, circa 1998.

The Been-Gay movement was at it's apex and going strong... when some small college boy was pistol whipped, tied to a fence and left to die in Laramie Wyoming in the fall of that year.

Hate speech leads to violence. It is advocating for murder. Convert or die.

[timtom]

61. Did you say pistol whipped, tied to a fence and left to die?

Clearly those perpetrators should be shunned.

If it's not gays, it's blacks.
If it's not blacks, it's Iraqi's and other people of the desert persuasion.
If it's Iraqi's and other people of the desert persuasion, it's the Irish.

Many have their turn being the object of hatred and senseless violence.

[IntravenousDemilo]

40. "Shunning" is so 17th-century, "Children-of-the-corn", "duck-the-witch-in-the-river" primitive.

Besides, perhaps ex-gays are more to be pitied than censured. And as you would not be shunned, neither should you shun.

[MonkeyFunk]

47. I refuse to have hot gay sex with them

[Touchdown]

50. In the steamroom at the Evil Petting Zoo?

"...to a camp where they shaved my testicles. There is really nothing like a shorn scrotum. It's quite breathtaking."

[DarkTirade]

56. That would probably hurt them more than shunning them ever would.

[MethuenProgressive]

52. You win the bullshit push poll of the year award!

Obama be shunned for pandering to the bigot wing of his church.

[NorthernSpy]

66. maybe you don't know what a push poll is...

The point of a push poll is to deliver a propaganda screed.

The point of an actual poll, like this one, is to find out what people think.

[mondo joe]

80. Your poll is propaganda. As if giving this LIAR a public forum was no different

tha simply "not shunning" him.

[eyesroll]

54. 1. There's a difference between shunning someone and not letting them headline your event.

2. There's also a difference between someone whose sexuality is fluid/someone who discovers their orientation later in life/someone who has historically been gay or bisexual but is in a monogamous opposite-sex relationship...and someone who tells the world that God/Jesus/medication/whatever turned them from their sinful/diseased ways.

[LeftyMom]

58. Keeping untreated crazies at arm's length is usually just a good idea all around.

Bigoted, self-hating crazies all the more so.

[LWolf]

59. There is no such thing as "ex gay," as far as I know.

Would I "shun" people claiming to be "ex gay," in other words, people who choose to go back into the closet?

No, I wouldn't shun them. I pity them. I certainly wouldn't give them any weight in a political campaign.

There is ground somewhere between "shunning," and "inviting them to represent your campaign publicly." :eyes:

[dsc]

60. One can refrain from shunning someone while still avoiding

having them front a major event for them. Also McClurkin isn't just some random ex gay. He publicly spoke out against gay kids having their own school in an attempt to protect them from being bullied by classmates. While doing so he called gays child killers.

[NorthernSpy]

68. about that one paraphrase...

Please see my post above for a discussion of the "child killer" remark.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2532751&mesg_id=2533189

[XemaSab]

63. I think these people are sad

and gays, for the most part, are smart enough to realize that they are sad.

I don't think we should shun them. I think we should show them acceptance so that they realize it's okay to be gay. :)

[Bluebear]

64. Nobody wanted Obama to "shun" him (what is this, Amish country?) , but he HIRED him to MC a concert.

And at said concert McClurkin gave a half-hour sermon on how he was "saved" from the gay.

A little different from Obama "refusing to shun him".

[ruggerson]

67. Since there is no such thing as an "ex gay"

what is the point of your poll?

[NorthernSpy]

70. the point is that they claim to be ex-gay...

So I phrased the poll choices to reflect that.

[ruggerson]

77. I can claim to be an ex-white

doesn't make it so.

[IndianaJones]

69. will the ex-gay revolution be televised? nt.

[ruggerson]

84. rofl

n/t

[Lex]

72. Shunned by WHOM? And who do they "shun" in the first place?

nt

[NorthernSpy]

74. that's up to you...

Those are questions that you get to decide and share your opinion on here.

[Lex]

76. But you asked the question. I'm just seeking some clarity

on the issue.

[Hoof Hearted]

78. It's not like he was just some performer at an event BO went to though,

and that's a little problem with the whole thing I have.

He was hired by Obama and they did a little tour together and Obama knew what they guy was about. It's bothered me for a while now.

[mondo joe]

79. "Ex-Gays" should not be given forums to spew their lies, especially not

by Democrats.

[readmoreoften]

81. Holding people accountable for their rhetoric is not "shunning." This is an offensive push poll.

Let me reiterate my compiled research on the ex-gay movement for DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2500141

The ex-gay movement is a concerted effort to destroy the civil rights gains of LGBT people throughout the past two decades. While there are bi and pansexuals taught to 'shun' a part of their sexuality (not to mention gay people duped into living a lie) there is no such animal as an 'ex-gay.' Or rather, there is such a thing as an 'ex gay' and it is nothing more than a human being who has been molded into a human weapon for the religious right.

They should be considered mentally unstable members of an abusive and dangerous cult. Just like the only way to support the troops in a unjust war is to bring them home, the only way to support an 'ex-gay' is to get them out of the cult and bring them 'home' to their innate sense of self.

[Toasterlad]

82. Should We Make the Sign of the Evil Eye at Them Too?

Shunning. Honestly.

I'll settle for candidates who claim to be Democrats refraining from hiring hate-spewing gay hypocrites who pretend to be something their not. Thanks.

[Liberal Veteran]

83. I hadn't considered that....what a great idea.

That ex-gay shit might be something one needs to ward off with some tried and true superstition (sorta like the superstitious shit that convinces people that trying to change their own sexual orientation is necessary).