Is it okay to criticize/bash the Pope here at DU or does that cross the line?

[cboy4]

[Roon]

1. Pope?

Nope!

[LeftyMom]

2. Depends on what he did this time.

Criticizing him just for being Catholic would be out of bounds. Criticizing him for say, his opposition to condom use in parts of Africa where AIDS is endemic, or for his meddling in US politics, or just for being a disgusting Nazi fuck who disgraces his funny hat generally, I'm all for that.

[Hekate]

18. That's my take on it.

Be specific, folks, and nix the nasty Catholic-bashing I've witnessed here at times.

Hekate

[LostinVA]

41. Exactly

Considering most of the people at my wedding were practicing Catholics, I have a huge problem with the knee-jerk RC bashing on here.

[LeftyMom]

51. Well, they were Irish and Italian Catholics, and you had a good bar.

Liquor forgives a multitude of sins. :D

I'm still cracking up at the "did you notice both of the brides have tattoos!" thing, 'cause whoever that was they totally glossed over the brides part in order to be scandalized by your little armband and your wifey's ink. I think that's a good sign that people will get the hell over it soon enough, and find new things to bitch about.

[LostinVA]

110. Good point (re: the bar)

Hehehehehhe... good point about the tats, too.

During Christmas with all of the many Haruka Relatives, we got to chat with some people we haven't really talked to since the wedding, and I think the following also shows how using religion as a reason to deny same sex marriages is bogus (and is only an excuse to hate): Haruka's uncle's sister is very Catholic, and is a school secretary. She talked and talked about how wonderful the wedding was, and how she took our program into work and showed it to everyone she works with. This is an Irish/Sicilian Catholic American who is in her late 50's.

[Rage for Order]

75. As long as you don't draw cartoons of him

If you do that you'll end up with millions of Catholics rioting, burning shit down, and issuing a fatwa on you for blasphemy. Wait a minute...

[Angela Shelley]

3. What line?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." - Mark Twain

[Cha]

15. E HA!

Good ol' Mark Twain..he knew what to come up with to describe the A$$holes.

[JuniperLea]

34. Love this Hellacopters lyric...

There comes a time when a man`s gotta choose
A time when you have to decide what to do
Watcha` gonna do? Well I got better things to do with my time
Than to sit on my ass and throw pearls before swine

Gotta-gotta-go-go light up the ignition
Gotta kill that sacred cow
Please spare me all of your futuristic visions
`Cuz I gotta get some action
Gotta get some action now!

[closeupready]

5. He is not divine, so even if you're Catholic, it's not out of bounds, IMO.

n/t

[Evergreen Emerald]

6. this is the pope who got into the election and attacked Kerry.

This is the same pope who has supported Bush.

When he brings himself into politics--he is fair game

[madmom]

108. don't forget he also help protect pedophiles!!!

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpiralHawk]

8. Hey, he's just another man. In a funny hat.

Like Christ himself (although Christ did not wear funny hats).

Anyone wearng a silly hat and spouting "infallible" opinions had best be prepared for flak.

Especially if sooooo much of what he has already said has proved to be wrong or wrongheaded.

[Cha]

21. That pic is funny!

Feet facinate me.

[Angela Shelley]

25. Thanks for the pedestrian pic

[MonkeyFunk]

40. I don't think this Pope

has ever issued any statements subject to the doctrine of infallibility. In fact, I don't think it's happened since 1950.

[tekisui]

9. fuck the pope.

[Elidor]

76. Dogs fucked the pope

No fault of mine.

[KansDem]

10. What has he done to address his organization's pedophilia problem?

I don't recall either he or the Church hierarchy doing anything substantive about boy-raping priests.

[SpiralHawk]

28. "Ve vill be reviving ze inquisition for this." - Pope Ratzinger

"Und den ve vill keep der Priestly-pervert information classified under Pope-ular Privilege, just like der republicons, and der esteemed hero crony of der Skull & Boner Occult Church, Kommandant AWOL Bush. Jah."

- Pope Ratzinger

[mapatriot]

11. Not appropriate on THIS site

I'm not a big fan of the current Pope, but many of our fellow posters fervently believe in his role as the head of the Catholic Church. The nature of that role, and the strong belief shared by so many of our fellow liberals, should compel all of us here to respect those who may have different beliefs than you or I do. This isn't a religious site and bashing the head of any religion has no place on our board. In this case, some civility and decency is in order.

[Angela Shelley]

19. I agree with mapatriot on the "respect" part

but in this forum, many members don´t respect each other, different beliefs, or any religious organization in the first place.

If we say "no Pope bashing", then we have to say "no bashing other DU members".

[Hydra]

24. Respect is not something that is automatic

Especially after someone does something that hurts another person.

Consider how much damage Ratzinger is doing in his role as god's speaker, and then tell me why that should be respected.

[pleah]

109. I agree. I was taught you have to earn respect.

I don't believe he has earned it.

[Hydra]

20. Then the faithful can defend his holy inquisitorship

Whenever he stuffs both feet in mouth.

He's an elected person in the ultimate good-ol-boys club. Of course he's fair game!

[The Gunslinger]

38. It's ok to criticize his words or actions,

if one feels like they need to be criticized, but to bash him for just being the pope,(ie funny hat and crap like that),is unnecessary.

[LittleClarkie]

46. Criticism is fine I think. Bashing is not. Calling him a Nazi out of the blue will not go over.

Taking issue with one of his actions probably would be just fine.

[sutz12]

65. If I can't criticize someone....I can't respect him.

:shrug:

But mostly, if he confines himself to screwing up Catholics and leaves the rest of the world alone, I'm fine with him. But if he expects to get canon law enacted into secular life (meaning OUR Constitution), he's fair game AFAIC.

[shain from kane]

12. The Church criticizes its own Popes, so why can't we? It called them, Antipopes.

[Solly Mack]

13. Poke-a-Pope

[Hydra]

14. I criticize his high inquisitorship whenever he does or supports something stupi

Being elected by a bunch of old men in a moldy old tower does not make one holy.

[goodgd_yall]

16. His statements and pronouncements have social and political consequences

So definitely an "OK" from me.

[K Gardner]

17. As a Catholic, I thought that's what we were spose to do.. hmmm.. :-)

[goodgd_yall]

23. As an aside

Christmas Eve night I was starting to watch some of the Xmas Mass from the Vatican. Even though I don't like this Pope, I thought I'd give it a watch. Then the announcer named the officiating assistants. When he said one of the acolytes was a Legionnaire, I was reminded why I don't have ANYTHING to do with the Church leadership now and switched off the TV immediately.

[K Gardner]

33. I'm not happy with this Pope either. I was so hoping for someone else.. of a more

progressive generation/mind. I go to a local mass every now and then in one of the smaller diocese chapels, otherwise, I'm waiting for a new one.

[goodgd_yall]

84. It was as big a dissappointment when this pope was elected

as it was when * was re-elected. It seemed to be the same nightmare repeating itself.

[terrya]

22. As long as he's practicing outright hostility towards GLBT people.

Damn right he should. This Pope is one of the worst enemies the GLBT community has.

[book_worm]

26. Are you kidding?

[lpbk2713]

27. Popes usually are good judges of character.

[Flarney]

29. I don't see why a man in a funny hat deserves any more respect than the average person. n/t

[Beer Snob-50]

30. the popes postion on gays,

and his forays into the political spectrum make him fodder for our wrath. however he also espouses our views on the poor and the war.

[Iggo]

31. I got more respect for the POTUS...

...so yeah, have at it.

[Disturbed]

35. Would Jesus approve of this Pope or the Vatican & all of it's

wealth? Would he dress up in those fancy garbs, wear a ring & hold out his hand for people to kiss, wear fancy slippers & silly hats?

[Iggo]

54. Nope and nope.

.

[mmonk]

32. Depends on intent.

If it's to spread unreasonable fears and discrimination as in the past in the US or like currently against Muslims, then I think it's in bad taste.

[BuyingThyme]

36. Way okay. He's the leader of a European dictatorship.

And a bad one at that.

[Captain Hilts]

37. Cardinal Rat is not synonomous with the religion. I know Catholics who think...

he's the Dick Cheney of Catholicism.

[BushOut06]

39. Why not? Bash away, as far as I'm concerned

He's the head of an organization the represses women and homosexuals. This particular pope has a bit of Nazi in his youth as well, and is quite the conservative.

I wouldn't necessarily bash all Catholics, because not all of them share all of the centuries-old beliefs. But the leaders? By all means.

[Swamp Rat]

42. My "PopenFührer" pic was banned by a mod here long ago.

Though I complied by not posting it again, it still think it is wrong to censor it.

[laconicsax]

43. The problem is that to many people,

criticizing the Nazi-Pope means that you hate Catholics the same way that if you criticize Israel, you hate Jews, and if you criticize *, you hate America.

Is it too nuanced to believe that criticizing a single person/nation does not automatically equate to criticizing those that they supposedly represent?

[LittleClarkie]

49. It also helps if you get your facts straight about the man's life

legit criticism is one thing. But to call him a Nazi because you don't like him, despite the facts, is like swiftboating him.

[laconicsax]

68. I do so because

he was in the Hitler youth. The fact that membership was compulsory or that he claims that he was 'unenthusiastic' about it makes little difference to me. I'd be willing to bet that not every last member of the German military stationed at any of the camps was absolutely enthusiastic about what they were doing, but that doesn't excuse what they did.

[LittleClarkie]

44. Depends. Flamebait is not allowed regardless.

And one has to be somewhat sensitive to the Catholics on the board.

Personally, I'm always cool with criticism, and never cool with bashing. They are different. Insults and name calling are one thing, taking issue with someone's actions quite another.

[cboy4]

47. So are you only opposed to bashing the Pope and perhaps

others you pick and choose?

Or are you consistently opposed to going after all religious leaders?

I mean, one could argue the Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, etc., should be off limits in order to "be somewhat sensitive" to Evangelicals on the board.

Right?

And for the record, I don't believe that.

[LittleClarkie]

48. No, that's not at all what I'm saying

I try to be consistent in opposing bashing anyone out of the blue. I'm less successful with Republican religious leaders. But Pope Benedict is neither Republican nor Democrat. While there might be Evangelicals here, I really doubt they support Robertson or Falwell. So I'm not sure what you mean by that argument. Being an Evangelical does not mean you're going to support those people automatically.

Do you really think a progressive Evangelical is going to be terribly fond of Pat Robertson?

And I didn't say these people, or anyone, was off limits. I didn't say I was opposed to criticism. Flamebait generally is off limits however, and that goes for any topic. There's a right way, and a wrong way, to bring up an issue.

Posting out of the blue "Pope Rat is a fucking Nazi" or "All priests are pedophiles. How can anyone be Catholic" will probably get you deleted. "Benedict should be ashamed that he has not done enough on (blank) issue" might not get you deleted.

[cboy4]

53. LittleClarkie, you're supporting a double standard.

There are DUers who find the Pope's comments about homosexuality, abortion, etc., every bit as despicable as the garbage spewed by the Pat Robertsons.

And you don't know how many DUers/Progressives are fond of Pat Robertson, so shouldn't their interests be protected also, if you don't think the Pope should be bashed?

I am Catholic. I went to Parochial school and was an altar boy.

Yet I see nothing wrong with verbally bashing a man who spreads intolerance.

Would I use the words, "Pope Rat is a fucking Nazi."

No.

But I can understand why some people might be angry enough to do so.

[LittleClarkie]

55. I'm mostly talking about upholding DU rules

People have gotten deleted before for going to far in attacking the Pope or Catholicism. I've not seen anyone deleted for attacking Pat Robertson.

The question in the OP, after all, is what is allowed here, not what is understandable for someone to express.

[cboy4]

57. No, I understand. But my point is many DUers don't see

a difference between the Pope and the Evangelical nuts.

And lets face it. The Pope would figuratively make a deal with the devil before he voted for a Democrat.

Look at the result of this poll.

I've seldom seen a DU poll so lopsided.

That's very telling LittleClarkie.

[LittleClarkie]

59. The last pope hate Bush

Kind of depends on the pope, doesn't it?

[cboy4]

61. Now we agree: It absolutelty does depend on the Pope.

Despite some of his "teachings," I felt Pope John Paul was a very humble and compassionate person.

He almost came across torn about certain church policy -- as though he knew it was unfairly exclusive and made people suffer.

Wasn't aware he hated Bush per se, but never-the-less, the difference between John Paul and Benedict are night and day, IMO.

[tigereye]

73. Pope JP was very strongly influenced by Ratzinger...

his politics were quite conservative and not always humanitarian, either.

I think he just had much better PR, and had suffered more under Communism...

[cboy4]

82. Yea, but one can be humble (or at least come across as

being humble) while advocating church doctrine, IMO.

Benedict comes across as though he doesn't give a rat's ass who's hurt by this doctrine.

And that's the point I've been trying to make.

This current Pope looks to have a very cold demeanor.

I don't think public relations had that much to do with JP's demeanor.

He seemed like a nice man deep down.

Benedict, on the other hand -- and again, in my opinion as a Catholic, comes across as being intolerant and unfriendly.

[Occulus]

72. never mind

I really don't want to start a riot or get the thread locked or deleted.

[LittleClarkie]

74. Do you think the Progressive Catholics on this board feel that way

and do you have any of those examples on THIS board?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, agree or disagree, I'm merely discussing the rules of the board and what probably will, and will not, get deleted. That is after all what the OP was asking about -- what is allowed on DU. We have to be tolerant and sensitive of each other here. Have you ever been presented with such intolerance here (and I mean stuff that didn't get deleted -- excluding trolls in other words)

I don't give a damn what they're saying on AmericaBlog. I'm talking about DU and the people here. Do you really think there are Catholics here who are intolerant of you, and if they are here, will last very long before they are tombstoned?

Pope Benedict is not a DUer. Have you ever had trouble with Catholic DUers coming at you?

[rucky]

45. Say what you want...

but don't act surprised if someone jumps down your throat for it.

[Greyhound]

50. OK, even encouraged. n/t

:kick:

[CorpGovActivist]

52. I Like Martin Luther Types...

... and as recent history has proven, that particular institution is in need of renewed, if not constant, vigilance.

- Dave

[H2O Man]

56. The pope

is a big fan of Bonds.

[cboy4]

58. LOL. That hurt.

:argh:

[sniffa]

60. remember, your votes can condemn you to hell

:eyes:

i'll keep my commentary to the eye roll so as not to persecute some DUers.

[cboy4]

63. I'm still alerting.

;)

[CorpGovActivist]

67. Rhymes with "Snitch"?

:rofl:

- Dave

[cboy4]

69. Sniffa is one of my VERY favorite people. It'll be

curious to see how many people think I was being serious and if my post gets deleted. lol

[CorpGovActivist]

70. I Hope Sniffa Knew I Was Following Your Chain...

... of facetiousness.

; )

- Dave

[cboy4]

85. Sniffa is in a daze with excitement about the New England

Patriots, so who knows.

But he's almost as intelligent as myself, so I think he's figured it out.

He would have said something by now. lol

[CorpGovActivist]

88. Is He a Red Sox Fan, Tho?

; )

- Dave

[cboy4]

90. Nope. He's a HUGE Yankees fan. HUGE!!!!

LOL

Juuust kidding.

Not only is he a Red Sox fan, he's a Celtic fan.

However, he's pretty humble about it all.

[CorpGovActivist]

91. An Humble, Quiet, Non-Mouthy Red Sox Fan?

They exist?!?

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

62. K & R &

... just remember, cboy -

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_(Monty_Python)">Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

- Dave

[cboy4]

64. You're the best "Sir."

;)

[CorpGovActivist]

66. No, No, Thank *You*, "Sir," "Lord," "Lady," "Esquire," "Madam," "Ma'am,"...

... or whatever secular, temporal, spiritual, ecumenical, or grammatical title you prefer.

; )

- Dave

[mitchum]

71. Well, as the head of the world's longest-running corrupt multinational, he's certainly fair game

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. as long as he continues to bash me and mine, i find it quite appropriate to bash him

though only him and not everyone who follows catholicism

[NoPasaran]

78. I think the only person who was ever immune from criticism

I think the only person who was ever immune from criticism (for a time) was Cindy Sheehan. And even her halo has been revoked.

[CorpGovActivist]

79. Check Your Inbox When Convenient n/t

[Rex]

80. Evidently not.

Something about dissing others religions or what not. Personally, I think all crazy ideas should be made fun of.

[porphyrian]

81. There's a line? -n/t

[cboy4]

89. Yes, there apparently is a line when it comes to

criticizing certain religious leaders.

Not all. Only certain ones.

Yup, I know.

[porphyrian]

92. I hope there's no fine for crossing it then, or I'm in trouble.

:evilgrin:

[cboy4]

93. I'd be in trouble also.

[dysfunctional press]

83. he's a fucking nazi, for christ's sake...

no really- he does it for the sake of christ.

[graywarrior]

87. Nazi! He's Nosferatu!

[LittleClarkie]

98. Now see, that's bashing

which is different from criticism. What the heck is saying he's a Nazi for Christ supposed to mean.

Meanwhile, it's past tense, was a Nazi... youth, anyway. But the fact also remains that his family was anti-Nazi, and he deserted. He's not a Nazi for Christ, present tense. All that happened 60 years ago, when he was 16.

Could you possibly find something a tad more recent with which to criticize him if you so choose?

[avenger64]

86. The Catholic religion has got to reform, especially ...

.. on birth control. Overpopulation is becoming an undeniable problem globally.

[Ichingcarpenter]

94. No it is not OK

the pope stands against consumerism
why promoting being fruitful and multiply which increases his fold.

He supports Abstinence but not abstinence of belief.

He supports evolution but not the evolution of his church

He against wars but supports persecution of non believers.

He decries wealth but His church, is the richest of the rich, the wealthiest institution on earth.



http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_vaticans_billions_1.html

[defendandprotect]

95. dupe/delete

dupe

[defendandprotect]

96. Presumably, this Pope is the result of a few coups within the church ---

and what looks like the murder of a Pope or two ---

just those who would have reformed the church and permitted birth control!

Not to mention that the coup on Vatican II ---



PS: One of Allen Dulles nephews -- I think it's his nephew --- is now a higher up in the
Vatican --- which has always had a network of intelligence which rivalled the CIA!

[Ichingcarpenter]

99. Yep, Dan Brown just touched upon a little of what's up

in his books, he never really touched upon their real wealth and where they really put it....

'To do good'

Woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation"; and,"Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."; and, "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys." (Luke 6:20, 24; Matt. 19:23-24; Luke 12:33)

Rome lives and maintains its emperors still.

[IndianaJones]

97. NO. nt.

[LeftCoast]

100. If the Pope can criticize me and my 'lifestyle' I think I can criticize him and his.

Seems only fair since he is blaming me and my partner for lack of world peace and all that. :eyes:

[WinkyDink]

101. As long as we can bash Ayatollahs, mullahs, etc.

[LeftishBrit]

102. It's fine to criticize any individual, including the Pope (Especially this Pope!!!)

It would not be OK IMO to extend this to an attack on Catholics in general.

[cboy4]

103. You couldn't have put that better.

Absolutely.

:thumbsup:

[saltpoint]

104. Re Catholics, I revere the Francis of Assissi model and often distrust the Pope-

Authoritarian model.

In Louis Malle's memoir film, AU REVOIR, LES ENFANTS, Catholic priests at a school try to save a Jewish child from the Nazis. It's those anonymous Catholics who have done the hard work, the charitable work, the risky work, and fought the good fight over the years. I respect them a lot more than the top-down authoritarianism of the various Popes.

[Popol Vuh]

105. Why would I feel bad

about criticizing Nazi collaborators and child molester harborers? The Vatican and the Pope deserve nothing less than the most harsh criticism befitting a Nazi collaborator and child molester harborer.

And here's another (there are many more) criticism that needs pointing out. The Vatican is one of the richest institutions in the world and while hording some billions upon billions upon billions of wealth they got the nerve to preach about the virtues of giving while so many people in this world are starving to death. Despicable.

[Eurobabe]

106. Bless you

[leftynyc]

107. Criticizing should never be off limits

however, why go out of your way to insult someone? At least there wont be riots in the streets and nobody's head will be lopped off for the insult.