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Pakistan: It is Not the Democracy, Stupid-By Larry Johnson

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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 03:54 PM
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Pakistan: It is Not the Democracy, Stupid-By Larry Johnson
Pakistan: It is Not the Democracy, Stupid
By Larry Johnson on December 27, 2007 at 3:30 PM in Current Affairs

The tragic murder of Benazir Bhutto in the midst of a Pakistani election campaign is a jarring reminder that politics, particularly in that part of the world, is a contact sport. Many American pundits and politicians already are filling the airways deploring the attack and calling for democracy. This shows me we have learned nothing from our debacle in Iraq.

The majority of people in Pakistan favor Islamic fundamentalism. Got that? If there is a fully free election we should not be surprised if the winner is someone who is not in sync with a Western view that values pluralism and secularism. Also, we probably would not be able to count on them insisting that Israel’s right to exist be protected. OK?

The military and intelligence services are not a monolith. There are some in both institutions that are favorably disposed to work with us and believe in the necessity of reining in the Islamic extremists. But they also contain officers who share the vision and values of the extremists. Men who have helped fund, train, and protect the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and groups such as the Harakat Ul Ansar. They are committed first and foremost to creating a Pakistan ruled by Sharia and are intolerant of those pushing for accommodation with the west.

The immediate goal for the United States is to assume a low profile and work quietly behind the scenes. I’m sure that most of the U.S. pundits and politicians offering prescriptions for Pakistan’s future are well intentioned. But notwithstanding being well meaning, meddling is still meddling.We should recognize that there is a limit to our influence and that those who are perceived publicly as our closest allies may have the most to fear.

more at:
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/12/27/pakistan-it-is-not-the-democracy-stupid/#more-1215
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep, I agree fully. Tread lightly here, and don't insist on a course of action
that may end up in a result that we like even less.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Do you support continued US tax payer funding for the military dictatorship
in Pakistan?

If we quit sending them money and arms, would that be meddling in their internal affairs?

Now, before you jump to conclusions, I'm not sure whether continued funding is a good idea or a bad one. I'm also not sure if demanding or expecting democracy in foreign countries is a good or bad idea.
However, I think discussing the issues is legitimate.

We funded Saddam for many years, before both Dems and Repos started demanding democracy, of cousre the first Iraqi war (Gulf War) was bipartisan. Was it good policy to fund Saddam for all those years? We did it with bipartisan support in both houses and with different executives from both parties. Was it good policy to then interfere deeply in Iraq politically, militarily, and economically? Again, it was bi-partisan support for that.

Unfortunately, looking back, it seems that we were failed by many in both parties, because the policies pursued led repeatedly to war. And usually war involving the US to a greater or lessor extent. And war is failure, make no mistake.

This failure is also presumably shared by the electorate, who elected these leaders, presumably.

That is what I see as the failure of the American political system in terms of foreign policy (all policy, actually) the failure to Analise and learn from our mistakes.

We are in the middle of a nomination campaign where a number of the Democratic candidates were casting votes that effected policy. Some like Biden and Dodd for longer, Kucinich in the middle, and some like Clinton, Obama, Edwards and for shorter lengths of service.

My questions to them is what are we doing differently, this time, and why?
What did we do right and what did we do wrong in the last 35 years as regards Western Asia.

With the exception of Kucinich, I don't hear much talk about fundamental policy reform. I hear specific ideas for specific situations, but I haven't seen any wholesale examination of the appropriateness of American Empire. And without examining our unspoken unconsciouses policies on the inherent rightness/desirability of Empire, all the rest is kind of minor in terms of eventual outcomes.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I support not doing anything that might further destablilize Pakistan into a failed nuclear state,
or result in the election of someone worse than Musharraf. I think our leaders need to think through the situation very carefully before acting to suspend aid or anything else.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No one honestly defines what that "foreign policy" really is. WHAT IS IT?
What is the "foreign policy" that leads to perpetual warring.

Is it maximizing corporate profiteering off resources around the globe (including human) FOR A FEW GIANTS?

Yup. That would be our "foreign policy" for the last forty some years. The "giants" aren't having to pay much for it. WE ARE,...THE PEOPLE, ALL OVER THE GLOBE, are paying and paying and paying.

The "Prince of Darkness" envisioned an "all out war" to make things all better. Maybe, that's what he's going to get is his "all out war".

I wish I didn't have to witness this in my lifetime. *sigh* On the other hand, maybe, ten years from now, the outcome will be such that I'll be grateful I did witness this turmoil,...if I live that long.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. here here Kpete we were meddling
and a very nice lady paid for it

not Bush in his Ivory tower

a poor lady trying to achieve change
with no protection

She was a lamb to the slaughter

and if your into their death society
she was a sacrifice
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nominated.
Thank you, kpete.

And thank you, Larry.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Recommended for discussion. nt
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. politics is a contact sport here, too. Just ask the folks in the WTC building on 911
oh yeah, you can't. They've been pulverized. :(
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. k&r+ some other historical Pakistan threads
When this year started out there were a lot of reports coming from Pakistan that concerned me enough to track them for a few days-it began with a report from the BBC that I posted in LBN 1-15-2007

"BBC: Pakistan nuclear 'kidnap' foiled" (started 1-15-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2689760

Then there was the reposting of a Jason Leopold article (from 8-9-2005) in Editorials and Other Articles that also merits review today

"Cheney+Pakistan=Iran by Jason Leopold" (archived from 11-6-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x319216

I was deeply saddened to hear of Benazir Bhutto's assassination and the repercussions will be unpredictable. This tragedy plays into the " policies and plans" of groups (like PNAC) that seek regional instability for their agendas in the so-called Global War on Terror.

Most of the viewpoints I hold about the regime of Musharref, A.Q. Khan and the ISI are in the linked threads-they have only intensified today.

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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I, too, was very saddened albeit not surprised. I agree "chaos" is PNAC's goal.
They, undoubtedly, are rubbing their scheming hands with great satisfaction.

However, when matters become particularly unglued (and I'm not talking about the M.E. but rather the U.S.,...I guarantee they will scatter like cats in a rain storm. Pitiful, wiley, little worms.

They may very well end up being the facilitators of their own country's demise. MAY. As you stated, ",...the repercussions will be unpredictable."

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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bullshit.
"The majority of people in Pakistan favor Islamic fundamentalism. Got that?"

Larry Johnson has his head up his ass. If there had been a fair election held in the last few months, Benazir would have easily won.

That said, Johnson is right on one thing -- support of the U.S. administration (especially one which has been cowboying around the ME) is a kiss of death for any political leader/group.

The people of Pakistan want someone who will deal w/ the violent extremists effectively -- but they DO NOT want a U.S. puppet. They're not looking for a theocrat -- someone who will stand up to the likes of Al Qaeda AND the U.S. Gov't.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I found his assertion that a majority chose extremism over democracy absolutely stunning.
That particular assertion has now turned me off to Johnson's critiques of matters in Pakistan.

I fully agree with your final assessment:

"The people of Pakistan want someone who will deal w/ the violent extremists effectively -- but they DO NOT want a U.S. puppet. They're not looking for a theocrat -- (THEY WANT) someone who will stand up to the likes of Al Qaeda AND the U.S. Gov't." (edited by mwhaa)

I am sure the US will help the dictatorship to propagandize the masses, as it has done to it's own masses, into BELIEVING democracy is in place,...over time.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bhutto seemed quite focused on democracy in her last Huffpo piece
9-01-2007

Why I'm Returning To Pakistan

I was looking forward to a quiet family holiday in New York this summer with my three children, our dog Maxmillian and my husband, who is being treated for a heart condition that developed while he was a political prisoner in Pakistan from 1996 to 2004. I thought we would go to the theatre and spend time walking in Central Park, as well meeting up with friends for nice, long chatty dinners. But in this surprisingly momentous summer of 2007, our quiet family vacation disappeared as we found ourselves caught up in the media attention on my country Pakistan, and its fast changing political situation.

It is clear to those following events in South Asia that Pakistan is truly at a turning point. Almost a decade of military dictatorship has devastated the basic infrastructure of democracy. Political parties have been assaulted, political leaders arrested, and the judicial system manipulated to force party leaders into exile. NGOs have been under constant attack, especially those that deal with human rights, democratic values and women's rights. The press has been intimidated, with some reporters -- even those that work for papers like the New York Times -- arrested, beaten or made to disappear. Student and labor unions have not been allowed to function. The electoral institutions of the nation have been manipulated by an Election Commission that could not stop rigging and fraud. And in the battle against terrorism, we look on with dismay as the government of Pakistan ceded sections of our nation that previously had been governed by the rule of law to Taliban sympathizers and to Al Qaeda, making Pakistan the Petri dish of the international terrorist movement.

But the most dangerous manifestation of this retreat from democracy has been a growing sense of hopelessness of the people of Pakistan, and a total disillusionment with the political system's ability to address their daily problems. The social sector has festered -- underfinanced and relegated to the back burner of national policy. All the indicators of quality of life have spiraled down, from employment to education to housing to health care. And as people's sense of disillusionment has grown, there has been a corresponding growth in the spread of religious and political extremism. The failure of the regime has made our citizens open to extra-governmental experimentation with fanaticism. This has clearly been manifest in the spread of politicized madrassas, schools in which the curriculum incorporates xenophobia, bigotry and often para-military terrorist training. But poor parents who cannot feed or clothe their children entrust them to these kinds of schools, so their children may be fed and housed.

The growth of the madrassas is but one important signal that extremism has been making inroads against moderation amongst the Pakistani polity. I have always believed that the battle between extremism and moderation is the underlying battle for the very soul of Pakistan. Yet moderation can prevail against the extremists only if democracy flourishes and the social sector improves the quality of life of the people. In 2007, I sensed that the decade of dictatorship was threatening to undermine the moderate majority of Pakistan, those people committed to pluralism, to education, to technology -- in other words, those committed to Pakistan taking its place among the community of civilized nations as a leader in the 21st century. Under democracy, the extremists had been marginalized in the past, never receiving more than 11% of the vote in an election. But under dictatorship, Pakistan was edging toward extremism, chaos, and sliding towards a failed state.

more --> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benazir-bhutto/why-im-returning-to-paki_b_62792.html

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Exactly..US Must STOP Meddling in Other Country's Affairs
get through your ego maniacal thick heads!
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. "The immediate goal for the United States is to assume a low...
profile and work quietly behind the scenes." I would be willing to guess that they have been doing this all along.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. If Mr. Johnson's analysis is true, why isn't Musharaff all ready dead?
:shrug: After all, it is US that is accommodating him and visa versa.

Moreover, my understanding of Pakistan isn't nearly as black/white as Mr. Johnson's description. My understanding is that there is a HUGE contingency that seeks the establishment of a form of democracy, or, at least, freedom from tyranny.

As for how the US should behave with respect to the assassination of that woman, it probably doesn't matter much now that the US has openly propped up yet another dictator with VISIBLE ties to extremist elements. The damage is fucking done, all ready. My only question is this: is the US going to continue to fund Musharaff's military dictatorship. Oh, I KNOW, I know (blah blah blah)...he'll stop 'helping' us with the extremists ("here we go again with that crap") but I must point out that he hasn't helped one damned bit with subduing or controlling extremism but rather emboldened it by behaving as an anti-democracy tyrant, JUST LIKE HIS KEEPERS/SUPPORTERS.

I think the US should get the hell out of Pakistan. Allow the people to fight it out. But, the US WON'T do that because the US Corporacrats want their fucking lines to profit over there!!!

I AM SORRY for the aweful language. I am simply very angry over this situation because guess who's going to pay and pay and pay for what's happening over there when we have no fucking business meddling as we have/do/will? Not just the Pakistanis. Not JUST the Pakistanis.

btw Musharaff will be assumed guilty, period
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. k&r
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. This assertion directly opposes what Biden said on Hardball
today. Are there any Pakistani DUers?
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. There are, BUT more immediate concerns/actions are at hand.
I am just so damn sick of the fucking simpleton bullshit being spewed.

Geez. I am so sorry for the language. I'm angry, okay. I am angry and sad and frustrated over what did NOT have to happen BUT DID THANX TO US POLICY.

Yes. I will say it: THE US IS A RESPONSIBLE PARTY IN HER UNNECESSARY DEATH. INDEED!!! You fucking BET!!

YES! I will say it: SHE WAS THE "GOOD GUY"!!!! GODAMNIT :cry: She WAS a "good guy".

Now, she is a "martyr".

Now, blowback is bigger.

Now, our children get to pay for the struggle between corporateering "majesties" and "the people".

Now, the war is between global robber barons and "the people" over "democracy".

WWIV is a WAR FOR DEMOCRACY.

The robber barons assert "democracy" is for them (to rule over the people,...republic-like) while "the people" assert "democracy" is about the WHOLE of humanity.

The neocons WANT this war, apparently. HEY, "Prince of Darkness", Perle,...are you happy, yet? Are your children singing?
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