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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:35 PM
Original message
Are you a little skeptical of the "Saint Bhutto vs. The Monsters" story being peddled
by the Corporate Media and their spokesmen and women? Think the world is a bit more complicated than that? Wonder why she was praised as so uniformly?

On last night's Nightline Brian Ross (ABC reporter) mentioned that her re-entry into Pakistan politics was pushed strongly by the CIA, and that these forces are now pushing US trained General Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani as the new strongman to replace Musharraf.

A lot of the background information needed to understand what is really going on can be gleaned from Amy Goodman's interview on Democracy Now! today with Tariq Ali and Manan Ahmed. Worth reading - a bit of a primer on how things work.
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/12/28/pakistan_in_turmoil_after_benazir_bhuttos

"Tariq Ali, acclaimed British-Pakistani historian, activist, and commentator joins us now on the phone from London. He is one of the editors of the New Left Review and the author of a dozen books.

"Manan Ahmed, historian of Pakistan and South Asian Islam. He blogs at Chapati Mystery and at Juan Cole’s Informed Comment."

A brief excerpt:
----------------------------------------------------
TARIQ ALI: Well, Juan, this is absolutely right, and it’s been her tragedy and the country’s tragedy. When she came to power, elected for the first time, it is absolutely true she was hemmed in by the military on one side and an old rogue of a bureaucrat who had been made president on the other.

And she told me very openly, “I can’t do anything.” And I said to her at the time in Prime Minister’s house in Islamabad, “I understand that, but there are two things you have to do. One, you have to make it very clear to the people publicly that this is the reason I can’t deliver my promises on land reform, on health, on education. They won’t let me do anything. This is why I can’t make any readjustments in foreign policy. They have imposed their own foreign minister, Yacoub, on me, who insists we carry on as before,” etc. etc. She didn’t do that.

And I think by this time she had become a very different person politically from what she had been earlier and had decided that she didn’t want to be on the wrong side of history, so to speak. She more or less said that to me. And she realized or she thought that the only way to survive in this world was basically to do the bidding of the army at home and Washington abroad, two institutions which had led to the—which had basically bumped off her dad in 1979 and which were not going to do her any favors.

AMY GOODMAN: Tariq, explain that, how her father died and who was involved in his assassination, in his execution.

TARIQ ALI: Her father was probably the most popular politician in Pakistan, pledging massive social reforms. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who had been elected in the 1970 elections, had won a large majority in the country that we now know as Pakistan and had been elected on a very radical platform. He came to power.

He implemented some of his reforms, not all, became extremely autocratic, clashed with the United States on a number of issues, including Pakistan’s right to have nuclear weapons. Henry Kissinger warned him in private that if you do not desist on the nuclear issue, we will make a terrible example out of you. That’s what Bhutto wrote from his death cell. The United States organized a military coup d’etat. General Zia-ul-Haq took power in 1977, organized a trial against Bhutto, charging him with an absurd charge of murdering someone. The judges were pressured, and they found him guilty, and Bhutto was hanged in April 1979. It could not have happened without US support and approval, because Zia was a nobody, and Washington clearly green-lighted the murder.

And Bhutto, from his death cell, wrote a very moving document called “If I Am Assassinated,” in which he said there are two hegemonies—these are his words. He said, “There are two hegemonies that dominate our country. One is an internal hegemony, and the other is an external hegemony. And unless we challenge the external hegemony, we will never be able to deal with the internal one,” meaning Washington is the external hegemony and the army is the internal one. And this is a problem which still haunts Pakistan and which, I have to say, has now created this new crisis.

And unfortunately, his daughter decided to collaborate with both of these hegemonies. One has to say this. Her second period in office was a total disaster, because not only did she do nothing for the poor or her natural constituency, but basically it became an extremely corrupt government, and she and her husband accumulated $1.5 billion through corruption. This is well known to everyone.

Now, when the United States decided they wanted to put her back in there, they told her, we are going to whitewash you so clean no one will even know. And this is what the global media and networks have been doing. Look, I knew her well. I’m very upset that she’s dead. But the piety being displayed on the global media networks is beyond belief. You know, it’s as if there’s no past, no history in this country or its politicians.
----------------------------------------------------
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. DemocracyNow is replacing the role that The New York Times used to hold...
The last bastion of real journalism.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. This was an excellent interview. K&R
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. She was human, she was a politician. There's no angels.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. No.
I think that most people will recognize that she was not a saint, and that she had some short-comings as a politician. I've watched MSNBC and CNN, and both have had people comment on that.

I think that there is an interesting amount of discussion about how the failures of the Bush policies has contributed to the problems in Pakistan.

The part that I think the media will largely ignore is that the Pakistani intelligence group ISI, which has connections to a segment of Saudi intelligence, has been some of the primary leaders of the groups that are known as al Qaeda.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. They also fail to mention that it was during Bhutto's 2nd tenure that the ISI-CIA-Saudi
alliance were able to finalize the consolidation of Taleban control in Afghanistan.

From da wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto :
Policy on Taliban

The Taliban took power in Kabul in September 1996. It was during Bhutto's rule that the Taliban gained prominence in Afghanistan. She viewed the Taliban as a group that could stabilize Afghanistan and enable trade access to the Central Asian republics, according to author Stephen Coll.<10> He claims that her government provided military and financial support for the Taliban, even sending a small unit of the Pakistani army into Afghanistan.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Isn't the ISI the org. that controls the nukes in Pakistan?
n/t
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. Remember Mr. Ten Percent
The leader of an important tribal group in Pakistan, Zardari became known as "Mr. Ten Percent" during his wife's tenure, because of allegations that he extorted that percentage from people seeking to do business with the Pakistani government.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15048523

--------------------------------------

Another corrupt Pakistani leader is dead. Big deal.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. i was accused on pissing on the dead
the day she was murdered because everyone was extolling the virtues of her and i posted that she was no saint. she was fondly called a "kleptocrat in a hermes` scarf" for a reason.

she conned the neo-liberals in the west into thinking she was pro-democracy which she was`t and the neo-cons loved her because they thought she could neuter the army and give bush a "victory" in pakistan.

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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Washington clearly green-lighted the murder."
Bhutto clearly knew, as in had no doubt, that she would be killed. She left behind evidence in the form of emails, interviews, letters, personal correspondence attesting that and pointing to who would be responsible for her death. This was her fate, her life, her passion, her destiny, as it was her father's. I don't see that people are trying her out for sainthood. Most reports include the accounts of corruption. If Bhutto had not played the system, how would she have played at all? And with this one last act, a sacrifice of her life, maybe the truth about the US role in Pakistan will see more light. Maybe the dual hegemony will lose its hold. Maybe people will pay more attention, or care. Maybe she cooperated, knowing she would die, to try to save her country. As for the MSM, what else would anyone expect? It's the mideast version of Princess Di to them and they're going to milk it for all they can. It's up to us to use Democracy Now for the stunning resource it is, and to try to hold the MSM accountable. This is an excellent interview, BTW.

CNN is actually doing a fairly surprising job of reporting in-depth on this, IMO, considering the source :-)
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I don't think we did... Musharaf and ISI acted independently
I think that's one reason why Bush's tone and words were so muted and off-keel when he delivered his statement.

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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Supposing it was the ISI,
this wouldn't necessarily mean that Musharraf knew in advance. It could have been rogue elements within the ISI or military, for example.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. she played rough in a rough country but she was elected and popular.
and would have been again despite any past corruption.
she was pro-west pro-neocon and tough on islamists and still she was very popular which tells you something about pakistan.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. The immediacy with which
the 'media' framed the discussion as a U.S. problem... having Rudy opine on what 'course of action', the U.S. should take..gave me pause. I don't know enough about this woman to have an opinion about her...but assassinations have a way of creating a false history.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good point, Bhutto was no saint... turn over any Pakistani politician
and the roaches scurry away. Corruption is a national past-time there. Should we get into the lifestyle she led in Dubai??? It might make Imelda Marcos blush.

The problem in Pakistan is that there is NO ONE the U.S. or the world can go to who isn't dirty in some way.

That's a big problem :( .
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Maybe "any US-supported politician" rather than just those in Pakistan
The problem in Pakistan, as I see it, is that the US relies on and props up the most corrupt and tyrannical elements of that society. The whole history of US interventions around the world has been a series of case studies in just that process, and the fact that the people eventually get sufficiently outraged to take to the streets. You know the list. One ruling elite making deals with another more powerful one for their common advantage.

And, of course, the same thing is true in Afghanistan. In the DN! interview Tariq Ali makes these observations (framed in terms of the Obama-Clinton spat):

"But to return to Obama, if you’d had, you know, three times as more US troops in Afghanistan, casualties would have been higher. People would have—more people would have been fighting it. The real problem in Afghanistan is that they occupied it without having any understanding whatsoever what they were going to do. They put Karzai in, and they couldn’t do anything to transform the lives of ordinary people in that country. You have large-scale corruption with Karzai and his cronies getting rich, with Karzai’s brother actually in charge of the heroin trade and arms smuggling. That’s the problem, that the people they put in had—were feathering their own nests. So I think Obama is out of line on this. I mean, there is no guarantee that if he had sent twice or three times as many troops, that the situation would have been any better. It could have been worse."
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. "Clash of Fundamentalisms:" Crusades, Jihads and Modernity
I read this book. It was excellent. Tariq Ali knows Pakistan, quite well.

May US Govts have tried to dominate other Nations with disastrous results.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes. Tariq Ali is not only very expert on "how things work," he is also a very readable writer.
To be sure, there are a lot of unfamiliar names and places, but they become as "real" as characters in a favorite soap opera, TV series or novel, plus remaining actually real when one reads the news from that area. His style is not dry academic. For example, a month old article on Bhutto, her life and times, entitled "Daughter of the West," ( http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali_01_.html ) includes a description of his arrest with lawyers when protesting the dissolution of the judiciary and also comments on how the state attempted blackmail against the judiciary as well as him personally:

"What if the Supreme Court were now to declare his re-election by a dying and unrepresentative assembly illegal? To ward off disaster, the ISI had been preparing blackmail flicks: agents secretly filmed some of the Supreme Court judges in flagrante. But so unpopular had Musharraf become that even the sight of judicial venerables in bed might not have done the trick. It might even have increased their support. (In 1968, when a right-wing, pro-military rag in Lahore published an attack on me, it revealed that I ‘had attended sex orgies in a French country house organised by friend, the Jew Cohn-Bendit. All the fifty women in the swimming-pool were Jewish.’ Alas, this was totally false, but my parents were amazed at the number of people who congratulated them on my virility.) Musharraf decided that blackmail wasn’t worth the risk. Only firm action could ‘restore order’ – i.e. save his skin. The usual treatment in these cases is a declaration of martial law. But what if the country is already being governed by the army chief of staff? The solution is simple. Treble the dose. Organise a coup within a coup. That is what Musharraf decided to do."
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. That's exactly the problem... corruption is endemic at all levels
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 05:09 AM by JCMach1
For example, the missing (more or less) 5 billion in aid to Pakistan.

Oh yes, it was spent legitimately... with the $ being spent on missiles and weapons produced by companies (and deals brokered by) ex and current military commanders.

Among the Pakistani expat community here (both well-placed and not so well-placed) the mood is very grim. Note, Dubai has the largest expat community of Pakistanis outside the country. Some, like Bhutto, are political refugees.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm "a little skeptical"...full stop.
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PakistaniDUer Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
18. My parents hate the Bhutto family
They came to power with false promises and stole billions of dollars from the Pakistani treasury...that doesn't justify assassinations of course, but it's obvious that this rush by US politicians to glorify her does come because she's an asset. A lot of more honest people in the world have been killed and US politicians have said nothing.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Welcome to DU
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 02:15 AM by ConsAreLiars
Don't be put off by the volume of pointless noise you might encounter. There are a lot of very insightful posters whose nicknames you will soon come to look for. Also some of the more focused forums are worth investigating.

As for your family's views, I think the article referenced a couple posts earlier ( http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali_01_.html ) does an excellent does a great job of laying out her history and her transition from being seen as a promising reformer to one who had betrayed that promise.

(edit punctuation error)
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PakistaniDUer Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thanks, I've seen you for a while and others
that are quite bright here, others seem to go for fad-of-the-week politics...
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks.
I "usually" try to be constructive, but there are many here who are absolutely brilliant at doing research and cutting through the fog put out by the Mass(acred) Media. Even within threads posted by those whose ideas seem to go no further than reacting to the fad-of-the-week diversions there are many who seek to elevate the discussion. They are the ones who make DU a valuable site, and they may very well be a large majority.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Welcome to DU...
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. What is the source of the corruption stories?
I've been questioning this because I know how our government can say something over and over again and expects people to believe it just because it says so. So I'm not so ready to believe things without a grain, or a large tablespoon, of salt. I've know about the corruption charges for a long time, but I've never bothered to look into it. Lately I have and I'm just wondering how reliable are the sources for these charges. Is it possible she was set up?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
23. Sorry to laugh
Brian Ross (ABC reporter) mentioned that her re-entry into Pakistan politics was pushed strongly by the CIA, and that these forces are now pushing US trained General Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani as the new strongman to replace Musharraf
----------
Anyone who hasn't seen this coming hasn't studied Pakistan. The day of her death I heard a report that Kiyani was meeting with Arlen Specter.

By the way the Al Qaeda leader who was accused of killing her has come out publicly and denied it (BBC)

There was a good interview with a former Minister from her government and he pointed out that Al Qaeda does not have trained assassins who could get that close to her.

The reason for the Pakistani government spin re no bullet is that whoever shot her was a trained assassin who got very close to her and someone made that happen.
<snip>
"There was a clear bullet wound at the back of the neck. It went in one direction and came out another... My entire car is coated with her blood, my clothes, everybody - so she did not concuss her head against the sun roof."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7163754.stm
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Last night
I was talking to my good friend who is Pakistani (I'm Indian), and we were both befuddled - what the hell did we miss regarding Bhutto. As far back as we could remember she was another in a long line of corrupt politicians. Her immediate family mambers were criminals, especially her husband. Did she cure cancer and we missed it?

When I hear Hillary talking about the greatness of Bhutto, its enough to puke.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. People deify and villify with
consummate ease when it suits their agenda.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
24. I always skeptical of the line we're given, no matter the story.
It gets more so as time goes by.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
25. lies depend upon a lack of frame of reference. history is a frame of reference
as is logic, faith, science, mythology, etc.

to deny everything as debatable and devoid the landscape of a frame of reference makes you susceptible to lies. this is why reading books is a hated act, but consuming hours upon hours of ephemeral "current events" media is a lauded act. this is why preaching about, but not actually learning about, things is more important. to preach allows the power of charisma to play with the shadow of doubt. to learn allows the target to stabilize and think for themselves.

of course there's going to be a whitewash in our media. we need to paint her as a martyr. far too often we really are no different than those we "despise," never were. our evil and poison is completely dependent upon our rootlessness to this world.

to stop being pawns in the great game people should learn to turn off the corporate/gov't mouthpieces, ask real, even painful, questions, and learn to think for themselves. wake up and remember america. it's time to stop letting sob stories whisk us away wherever the wind will take us.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. This is a chess game.
Americans need to learn it.
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Laurier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
28. She was no saint.
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 05:46 AM by Laurier
Of course, none of us are.

But if that's the message that you are taking from the news sources that you consult, you might want to consider expanding upon those sources.

Just saying.

Edit to add: And it is not at all unusual for newsies to refrain, temporarily at least, from being overly critical of someone who has just been murdered. If the sources you've consulted to date have not yet voiced any criticism, just give it time. They will.
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Agreed
I did not see her as a "saint" but she seemed that she might be an improvement over Musharaff, but then I'm sure the political situation there is very complicated with intrigue that I'm not that confident in my own ability to analyze the events in Pakistan.
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