If you want decent care for Vets, you have to PAY MORE TAXES

[alcibiades_mystery]

The American people may one day get this through their thick skulls.

Taxes are not "your money." They're not. In a democracy, taxes are pooled money to provide social resources. The notion that taxes are "your money" is an outright fraud. There are trade offs, and the American people went with the following:

Tax cuts for personal property rather than healthcare for veterans.

That's what the American people thought was important. This isn't rocket science, as much as the numbskull neo-liberal and neo-conservative economists would have you think it is. It isn't a case of simply poor management: there is poor management because there are tight budgets, and there are tight budgets because of the tax cuts that the American people thought were more important than childrens healthcare and veterans' healthcare. It's really that simple.

If you want quality care for veterans, you have to pay more taxes. If you prefer your $400, or $4000, or $40,000 in pocket than providing care for veterans and competence for FEMA and the thousand and one other issues that boil down, in some sense, to social resources, then shut the fuck up. Take your fucking money, and shut up.

I've fucking had it.

[Cleita]

1. So tell that to all the rich billionaires and corporations that

Bush gave tax cuts to. It's time to demand progressive taxation like we had back in the fifties and sixties. The rich paid higher percentages in taxes than the poor. Back then there were decent vet's benefits like health care, the GI bill for college and GI loans for housing.

[Erika]

2. Tell them to quit shipping our taxes to corporate globalists

who have gotten richer than ever dreamed under the warmongering Bush.

Our taxes weren't meant to build corporatist coffers.

[Skittles]

3. THANK YOU

I am sick of the "IT'S YOUR MONEY" crowd not thinking twice before expecting cops to show up at their door at 0200 if called, child abuse reports investigated promptly, etc. STUPID F***ING ASSHOLES.

[northofdenali]

29. Skittles, will you adopt me?

Swear, we think so much alike. Besides, I haven't posted any new kickass Northern Lights photos recently :hug:

Your neighbor's kid gets hit by a truck? SHIT!! My taxes will go up!!!

Your own kid? Can they get there fast enough or have enough expertise? (See my rant below, girlfriend, and :hi: - don't run into you enough lately.)

[Skittles]

37. I do most of my posting in the middle of the night, denali girl

but you know I have long, long been a fan of yours :hi:

[Suziq]

39. I Agree

People demand cops, firefighters, their trash picked up and their streets clean. They demand good schools and a safe environment.

Where the hell do these people think this money comes from to pay for these services???? :shrug:

[SharonAnn]

49. Yes, "These are OUR veterans", "These are OUR roads and schools"

[mchill]

4. I can tell you

from the inside, working for a federal agency, it's falling apart, from the inside out. Everything is about keeping up appearances, and now, between tax cuts and Iraq, there is little money left over for that - the infrastructure is actually crumbling all over the place. Bldg 18 is no surprise. The federal government is full of bldg 18's. I work in one!

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Welcome to DU

:hi: :hi:

And enjoy your stay

By the way, you are correct... bld 18 is just the tip, but not only at the federal level

No service fees, no money for anything... and this is what many of it is my money crowd don't get

[spag68]

5. Hey there

Even though I mostly agree with you, you need to take a chill pill, or smoke something. Remember stress is the enemy, you have to stay alive to fight for the good things. Add to your list schools, roads, cops, fireman, etc. Taxes are ok, as long as all pay their fair share. In adition I live on Long Island, retired disabled, wife is disabled, prop. taxes 8k a year pay income taxes on 40k and I don,e care because I want those things in my town.

[badgerpup]

24. I'm on SSDI, but I vote YES when there's a mil levy increase...

...because I like the little niceties like the police department and the fire department, and that if I call 911 someone will come out and help...and my garbage gets picked up weekly, and the fact that there are intrepid souls in big machines who take on the snow at zero-dark-thirty on frozen mornings so that the roads are navigable.

That, and there's a public library for me to store all 'my' books that I'm not reading at the moment...only so much space in my own dwelling. :)

[niyad]

7. OR-- we have to stop blowing up our tax dollars in an illegal, unjust and immoral war. really is

simple, isn't it?

[NotGivingUp]

10. finally, a voice of reason

[Thevenin]

8. Taxes are "Our" Commons

for "Our Society" to protect us from Thomas Hobbes' brutishly short and hard life in a state of nature that is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

[Bozita]

14. Welcome to DU.

Treating our vets with less than the best is abhorrent!

[Thevenin]

19. Thanks

[northofdenali]

31. We're a cantankerous bunch -

but lovable as all hell - Welcome :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Cantankerous

ME, you? NAH

I'm in a strange mood right now, between horror, anger and pure cynicism

[Kutjara]

9. Before we talk about paying more tax...

...let's talk about where what we pay now goes. It seems there's plenty of money available for the Iraqi adventure and other governnment boondoggles aimed at enriching their corporate masters, but never any spare for health, education or welfare.

I'd be happy to pay higher taxes, if I had the slightest confidence that my money was being used even semi-effectively.

Yes, taxes should be used for the provision of social resources and other public goods. Often they are simply used to inflate bureaucracies and strengthen the government's grip on public life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. That is what happens when you put in charge

of government people who do not believe in government and want to make it as inneficient as possible... to make a point

This has been ongoing since oh... the Reagan Revolution, who for the record did NOT beleive in government

Now if you have somebody who beleives in government (FDR) you can have effective spending and leadership

It truly flows from the top

[Bozita]

18. Hard to believe electing govt-haters will improve govt services

Excellent post!

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Yep hard to beleive

but that is exactly what we have been electing (as a nation, not you and me) since 1980

You'd think people would learn, but I keep hearing it.. them damn liburals... tax and spend, oh wait, I did not know Bush boy WAS a tax and spend liberal... :sarcasm:

[Bozita]

26. 1980 - Reagan wins - Hostages released on Inaug Day - Anybody smell a skunk?

The infamous "October Surprise."

Kissinger's golden moment.

The GOP actually negotiated with a foreign power.

Problem is that the GOP was not in power at the time.

What would the GOP say if Clinton/Obama/Edwards were negotiating with Iran today?

And the Dems wouldn't be selling military stuff to Iran like the Republicons did in the '80s.

Think Iran Contra.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Oh definitely

but those who control the past... control the future

George Orwell had it right...

[bleedingheart]

63. bingo

[PVnRT]

43. Thank you!

I get tired of people who just jerk their knees and say "More taxes!" There is so much waste in the federal government it's incredible, especially in the Pentagon. Let's start actually making spending more efficient first, before we start putting the squeeze on working people.

[Synnical]

12. That's just silly

How about Corporations pay taxes on their use of our roads and the technology developed by our tax dollars that was turned over for private profit?

You might want to read up on that.

[Stephanie]

13. pay what you used to

Before Bush got in there and screwed everything up. Pay the normal rate, that you used to pay before Bush. It's the right thing to do and it's practical.

[AndyTiedye]

16. I'd Come Out Ahead

Any tax cut I got was more than offset by the money I have donated to organizations
fighting election fraud, fighting to protect what is left of the Constitution, and trying
to get some decent people elected.

[tularetom]

15. Or get rid of the assholes who waste your taxes on shit you don't want

like unending clusterfucks in foreign lands, or giveaway programs to uber wealthy corporate citizens. THEN perhaps you can get decent care for vets without paying more taxes. You are absolutely right about taxes - they're the toll for a civil society with at least a semblance of social order. I don't mind paying them - I just don't like when they're fucked with to advance somebody's personal agends.

[bentley]

21. Don't forget the bridge to no where, the rain forest in Iowa,

teaching black kids in Florida how to golf and every other piece of pork in the budget. Better yet, if they could have held on to the 12 billion that went "missing," it could have been used to help support the troops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Welcome to DU

[WinkyDink]

17. First of all, there are BILLIONS being thrown away in graft and/or

incompetence, in Bush's War. Stop that, and we'll help both problems (wounded vets and lack of money).

Secondly, we could, indeed, raise taxes---by RESTORING the pre-Bush, or, better yet, the Pre-Reagan---upper-bracket tax "burden".

Thirdly, we could make a concerted effort to REVERSE the regressive S.S. tax, by making it payable from the TOP DOWN rather than from the low bottom up.

[KingFlorez]

20. Or, the dollars could be spent properly

The money has been squandered on the war and tax cuts for the rich. Taxes don't have to go up to fund veterans, the budget just needs to be managed properly.

[NanceGreggs]

25. Yeah, right.

The American people have been totally indulging themselves, especially the middle class.

The US citizenry was asked: "What do you want your tax dollars to be spent on: body armour for the troops, or $85 to Halliburton for each $5 case of Coke delivered to those serving in Iraq?" And overwhelmingly, the populace cried, "Give our money to HALLIBURTON -- we DEMAND IT!"

Again, the populace was asked: "Do you want your government to fund the reconstruction of NOLA, or instead fund the photo-ops (complete with sets, props and lighting) of Bush speaking from New Orleans?" Again, the citizens cried out as in one voice: "Give us the photo-ops, regardless of cost! THIS is what we need in troubled times!"

And yet again, the citizens were asked the question: "Do you want your tax dollars spent on long-term care for our returning troops, or do you want those dollars spent on 'consultants' from 'think tanks' that will find reasons to show that this Administration's failure in Iraq (and elsewhere) were actually successes?" Yet again, the citizens cried out, "PLEASE, hand our tax dollars over to the propagandists -- and while you're at it, make sure that the oil companies get TAX SUBSIDIES, along with the corporations that are outsourcing American jobs, and please pass laws that will sheild people like Paris Hilton from EVER having to pay their fair share of taxes on the money they WORKED SO HARD TO INHERIT!!!"

I'm so GLAD someone finally pointed out the selfishness of the working middle-class. Why SHOULDN'T they pay more taxes, dollars that will inevitably find their way into the pockets of patriotic American companies like the Carlyle Group, and other companies of their ilk?

Some people are just too STUPID to realize how well their tax dollars are being spent, and how INCREASED taxes will be put to good use.

In case it's at all necessary, I'll add the :sarcasm: icon here.

[NotGivingUp]

59. Great post! eom

[northofdenali]

27. Where I live, I pay no sales tax. None.

On edit - Rant Warning! :rant:


No city, borough or state income tax. The state pays me once a year, just because I live here and have attained residency status (years ago).

Would I pay taxes to be sure our military got the best equipment? The best care?

YOU ARE FUCKING RIGHT I WOULD!!!!

That's a hell of a lot more than you can say about a "it's my money, it's my money" Repuke.

I don't mind paying my property taxes (which go up yearly) to ensure that we have a terrific bunch of folks who are EMT's and Cops and Firefighters and Teachers. Yes, I capitalize those professions for a reason.

I don't mind paying extra (if necessary) to be sure our homeless have shelter in the winter, and a decent meal; to be sure any woman or child or guy who is being abused is cared for.

What the fuck is the matter with these assholes? They wouldn't pay an extra dime in tax if their own mother needed a doctor and couldn't pay. Or their child. They talk a good line about "welfare moms" - but when do they put up their own money? They don't. I watched a woman walk off from the emergency room the other night (admitting my father-in-law) complaining because her "widdle darling" couldn't be seen IMMEDIATELY - I have INSURANCE - NOW. SEE MY CHILD IMMEDIATELY!! (My father-in-law was having a mild stroke, being seen etc., but I've NEVER seen anyone quite this blatant.)

Kid had a cold.
No fever.
Runny nose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. As a Medic I saw that all the time

When I had to go to the ER with a BAD ear infection... I patiently waited for my turn to come in

Your father, (and I hope he's doing better) has priority over my personal disconfort (and yes it did hurt like a mother and my balance WAS off)

But yep I got to see that regularly...

My favorite among those self centered bastards was a call for a diabetic.

We had to start an IV and test sugars... the wife actually told us to leave the HAZMAT behind for the hired help to pick up.

First off I never left my trash behind...

Second off, I would never leave sharps behind either.

That was fucking unbelievable to me and my team.

[northofdenali]

33. I love that term.... "the hired help"...

and you see it over and over in public emergency rooms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You see it anywhere actually where there is money

that is one thing that I think is part of the human condition.

You see I grew up in Mexico... but this hired help and attitude of I am better than you because I have means is pervasive

For the record, the ahem, hired help that have been with my parents for over fifty years in one case is more part of the family than hired help... always have been

When we go down to visit we always take them something and we have made sure to talk to parents about making sure they are taken care off when my parents are no longer around...

But my parents raised us not to see the hired help as hired help, but essentially as regular human beings who have had less oportunities than us. Hell, I remember spending some two years teaching one of them how to read... and now she's an avid reader and my mother's library is open to any reader in the household.

But going back to that call since only POOR people worked in EMS, they also treated me like the poor hired help... never mind the life of the gentleman was in my hands, literally, and I was probably better connected than these assholes.

Yep memories of that call still make my blood boil and I remember confronting the wife AFTER I transfered hubby to his personal doctor... who was shocked I could write, read and give a more than just competent medical transfer report and read an EKG strip. But we took the abuse... and then moved on to the next call... which ironically involved transporting a lady on the other side of town, the tracks and the economic ladder who was a sweetheart.

[Bozita]

32. Your post pushed me over the edge. -- Recommended!

Off to the greatest page.

[NanceGreggs]

35. Well said!

Imagine what would happen IF taxpayers could dictate where their dollars were spent?

Firefighters, teachers, first responders, hospitals, et al would be rolling in money -- and would undoubtedly make sure it got allocated where it would do the most good.

If this Administration, on the other hand, got $100 billion more in tax revenues, we can all be sure that $99.9 billion of it would wind up in the bank accounts of Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big Biz -- and whoever else could be counted on for GOP campaign contributions in future.

The remaining .1 billion, of course, would find its way into Dick Cheney's pocket.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. Taxpayers do allocate

When they vote.

Note directly, of course, but your dodge is a semantic one.

And yes, the middle class by-and-large supported the tax cuts. You know it and I know it.

[NanceGreggs]

44. It's not a dodge ...

... and semantics doesn't enter into it.

The premise of your OP is that Americans were somehow given a choice between a tax cut and money going to care for vets' needs. And that's just BS - you know it, and I know it.

Add up the billions funnelled into the pockets of Halliburton, Bechtel, Blackwater, etc. Then add in the billions in tax cuts to the top 1%. Then add in the billions 'gone missing' (hmmm) over the last six years - that money could have gone a very long way in caring for vets.

Yes, budgets are tight and there's only so much money to go around. But it's amazing how that budget gets loosened up when the oil companies -- who are raking-in record profits -- want a tax subsidy.

To imply that the selfish middle-class are the cause of a lack of adequate funding for returning troops is not only ridiculous, it's insulting.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Be insulted, then

The choice was implicit in a value system

You can dodge that all you want, but it's the case. For thirty years Americans said "It's my money, screw social programs." Well, they got what they paid for. Shite.

[NanceGreggs]

47. I was replying to your OP, not your philosophical overview ...

... of the last thirty years.

"The American people went with the following: Tax cuts for personal property rather than healthcare for veterans."

That sentence implies, in no uncertain terms, that it was an either-or situation, and the citizenry said, "Screw the vets, and give me a tax cut." That never happened.

"There are tight budgets because of the tax cuts that the American people thought were more important than childrens healthcare and veterans' healthcare. It's really that simple."

The American people didn't vote for this last round of tax cuts, their reps did. And if the population had voted on it, they certainly wouldn't have accepted the disproportionate cuts that went to the wealthiest individuals and corporations - i.e. those who needed it least.

"If you want quality care for veterans, you have to pay more taxes."

Again, there was plenty of money to start and sustain the War in Iraq, a war of CHOICE not need. But not enough for body or vehicle armour, helmet inserts, etc.? PLENTY of money to line Halliburton's pockets, PLENTY of money to build a billion-dollar embassy in the middle of Bagdad. But not enough money for vets' care?
That's not a lack of funds - it's not even a matter of poor allocation. It's a matter of out-and-out theivery.

As for FEMA - a fine example, BTW - it wasn't a lack of funds to blame; it was a Bush lackey being in charge, along with absolutely no oversight as to where rebuilding funds were spent after-the-fact.

The wealthiest Americans now pay a pittance of their fair share of taxes, and corporations get government welfare, at our expense, through subsidies - at the same time they're making millions in profit. Let THEM pay their fair share, before you go to the middle-class and say, "If it wasn't for YOUR lousy little tax cut, our vets would have the care they need."

BS. If the government announced tomorrow that there would be an increase in taxes to cover veterans' needs, two things would happen: The wealthy STILL wouldn't be paying into that fund, corporations STILL wouldn't be paying their share - and in the end, the vets would be lucky if they got a penny out of every dollar, after this administration 'allocated' the money.

The solution is simple: Shut down the war NOW, and bring the troops home. Every week we're there costs over a billion dollars, and increases the number of returning vets who will need long-term health care.

Taxes on the middle-class will be going up - and up, and up, and up -- in due time. Who do you think is going to have to pay off the debt and service the interest on it in future? It ain't going to be ExxonMobil, that's for sure.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Most people seemed to get that it was philosophical all along

You, on the other hand. insist on reading it literally, which certainly helps your asinine argument, and is the privilege of the imbecile in any case. Good luck with that.

[NanceGreggs]

52. The last refuge of one who cannot defend his position ...

... calling someone who debates it 'an imbecile'.

And good luck with that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. I've defended my position throughout

That was just an added bonus.

:rofl:

Cheers! :*

[NanceGreggs]

56. You defended your words ...

... and then decided they actually weren't your words, but simply something to be taken 'philosophically', not literally.

Funny you didn't mention that in your responses to my other posts -- I guess you just 'forgot'.


:rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Ay yay yay

I can't account for your poor comprehension. But like I said, for the literal-minded, everything is easy...

:eyes:

[Cleita]

42. I would like to see that put into law, a separate page on our

tax returns, with a list of budget items we could check off in order of priority as to how we want our tax money spent from first to all the way to least.

[hootinholler]

40. Do you seriously mean to imply that throwing more money at it solves management problems?

"It isn't a case of simply poor management: there is poor management because there are tight budgets, and there are tight budgets because of the tax cuts that the American people thought were more important than childrens healthcare and veterans' healthcare."

Management and budgets are decoupled. There is poor management because there are poor managers handling it. Tehy budgets are tighter because we're being raped by the military industrial complex (primarily) and tax policies that promote moving our jobs offshore.

I want quality care for vets. I think 360 tons of bundled $100 bills would go a long way towards providing it.

-Hoot

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. You damn skippy

Money solves "management problems."

[Dulcinea]

46. Hear, hear!

You get what you pay for, America, even though everyone seems to want something for nothing.

As to the "my taxes will go up" issue: When Jimmy Carter got the Nobel Peace Prize, I heard a million times that he didn't deserve it. I heard so many Georgians say, "My taxes went up when he was in office, why did he get the Nobel Prize?" As if one had anything to do with the other!

Yes, with many people it's all about taxes & about what they perceive to be theirs.

[hfojvt]

48. that's not entirely true

If I can quote some of my LTTEs

"That $1000 child tax credit will be paid back by your children, with
interest. Worse yet, that tax credit is a drop in the bucket compared to the tax cut that went to Bill Gates types.
A simple example should illustrate that. For my taxable income of
$19,000 my taxes were $1718.25 in 2001 and $1278.25 in 2005. A tax cut of $440. Then there's my Uncle Charlie (not really a relative). According to Forbes, Charles Koch was worth $4.5 billion in 2005 and worth $12 billion in 2006. Let me estimate that his income is $10 million. Then, in 2001 his taxes were $3.887 million and in 2005 they were $3.48 million. A tax cut of $407,000. Jim Ryun does not want to talk about that. He calls it class warfare to point out the fact that he and his fellow Republicans are giving large benefits to people like my uncle Charlie.
Ryun seems to believe that there is no way to create a tax cut to save me $440 without also saving a multi-millionaire $400 thousand!"

It would have been very easy to create a tax cut giving most people $440. Just create the new 10% bracket, and leave the top brackets alone.

"In May of 2003 the 2nd Bush tax cut was passed. It increased the child tax credit from $600 to $1000 per child. It also saved Alice Walton, for example, something like $40 million in taxes on her Wal-mart dividends. The child credit is great, except for one thing - a family of four making less than $31,850 ($37,850 if they maxed their IRA contribution) was already paying no income taxes (but still paying $2436 in FICA taxes). So they got nothing from that tax cut which Ryun and Bush want
to brag about.
Senate Democrats added a provision to make that credit refundable so
those lower income families would get an extra $800, but Republicans got rid of that, in House-Senate conference, with no protest from either Bush or Ryun. Matt Bivens wrote in "The Daily Outrage" - "Of the 12 million children excluded from the increased child tax credit in the President's tax cut, over 1 million are the children of military servicemen and veterans. Of these, 260,000 children have a parent currently on active duty."
Later, House Republicans did vote to extend the child tax credit to
families making over $120,000 a year. Bush and Ryun and the Republican
Congress have been ignoring and short-changing ordinary working Americans while they cater to the wealthy. That is what I said, and what I understand and believe. No amount of pork, or even commendable funding for worthwhile projects, is going to change those facts - $40,000,000 for Alice Walton, and nothing for the 260,000 children of lower income soldiers. Under Ryun and Bush, no billionaires are left behind, but lots of children are."

It is Alice Walton, who is in the top 10 of the Forbes 400 who should forego tax cuts before lower income Americans do.

[knitter4democracy]

50. Taxes are our dues to be members of this society.

It's just like dues for any other group--it gives the group the power to pay for what it needs for its members. Whether that group is a church, a country club, or a knitting guild, it has the same purpose. Why anyone would be okay with paying his country club fees but not his taxes boggles my mind.

[Freddie Stubbs]

54. Or you could just cut spending for other programs

[Critters2]

55. 400 billion dollars on an illegal, immoral war

could have been spent more wisely. Without raising anyone's taxes.

[MadHound]

58. Actually there are two options, raise taxes,

And personally I think that the rich should have their tax cuts of the past quarter century restored.

Or we could make a cut somewhere in the budget and divert that money to vetrans services. If we go that route, let's cut the military funding. After all, it isn't like we don't have enough weapons and high tech toys.

My preference is let us do both, raise taxes on the rich and cut military funding.

[ecstatic]

60. ummm... we pay a lot of taxes but the money is mismanaged

which is unfortunate.

[Marie26]

61. I agree in principle,

but not in practice. If someone waved a magic wand & Bush had 20 billion dollars more to spend, do you really think he'd spend it on veteran's benefits? No way - it'd go to more fat defense contracts, corporate welfare, etc. Bushco's whole operating goal is to systematically transfer the nation's wealth to the top 5%, and that's how he'd expend our tax revenues as well. "Poor management" implies the neglect was inadvertent. I don't think it's poor management at all; they've efficiently managed the funds exactly as they planned.

[bleedingheart]

62. Yup and if you wage war taxes should not go down..

I don't agree with the stupid war we are involved with but you can't have your cake and eat it too..

Wars cost money.

The troops need to be taken care of and I am ashamed of the folks who basically think that they can waltz around without a care in the world and that they shouldn't pay more taxes for soldiers care or for even the services they receive.

It seems like logic has gone out the window.