A little lesson in racism. Apparently some of y'all don't know what it is

[xultar]

when you read or hear it.

Just using the word boy in a sentence with the name Obama doesn't make it racist. If you believe that then you are being very simplistic.

When you're black you have to learn what is and what isn't racist.

Here are some examples...

If someone says, "Obama, that boy is good." Well, that isn't racist.

If someone says, "That Obama boy won." Well, that is racist.

If someone says "Obama is articulate and pleasant." Well, that is racist.

If someone says "Obama is a nice guy and a great speaker." Well, that isn't racist.

If you'd like to provide additional examples so we can discuss them post them below.

[Vincardog]

1. How about "Boy, Obama kicked ass in Iowa?"

[xultar]

3. Not racist and quite accurate. Congratulations to OBAMA and his supporters

[Rydz777]

180. Elizabeth Edwards just explained to Tweety what racism is. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

267. Huh? Elizabeth Edwards is racist?

[DaLittle Kitty]

327. America Retains its bias to this day and will be communicated to the voters

post Edwards (God Help Us), via the issue of "electability." Remember that! Then HillBill will be the default candidate. :) What a Nightmare!

[ileus]

283. or....My boy, Obama kicked ass in Iowa?

thought I'm a clinton fan, really everyone needs to stop being offended for Obama. He's a grown man, he doesn't need anyone's help letting him know when to be offended.

[Xenotime]

285. What about Oh Boy! Obama?

[Fierce]

2. You're on fire.

Thank you for your work.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. White people shouldn't be calling black men boys.

There are vanishingly few contexts where it'd passed.

[xultar]

11. I didn't say it was o.k. to call a black man a boy. Did I say that. Hey y'all..

is that what I said?

If you read my 'boy' example I don't think the non racist one calls Obama a boy.

Here is an example. In a sentence if you wouldn't use the word boy to refer to a white person don't use it to refer to a black person.

Easy.

If you in a paragraph call Hillary a Northern Girl, Edwards a Southern Boy and Obama a Northern boy then you'd be fine.

If you say Edwards is from the south and Obama is a northern boy...then I'd whip your ass.

SEE easy to tell.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Oh, I wouldn't say that either.

There are contexts where it would be acceptable to call a white man "boy" that I wouldn't tolerate using for a black man.

Same with the word "uppity."

[xultar]

44. So you have a black friend who is male and when he calls you wouldn't say whassup boy?

Sad. If To a stranger no. But to a friend yes.

I say to my girl friends...what's up guhl. I say to my boy friends...whassup...boy (more like boi)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. Point of fact, no.

I don't have such a black friend. If I did, I would not address him so. And if I did, and he were offended, I would apologize.

[JuniperLea]

153. Shoooot... you should hear Ms. B, my homegurl...

and me... when we get going... I call her Jennifer when she puts on the upper-crusty white preppy act, and she calls me Shanaynay when I git all up in her grill! It's all good... I've known her for years. She's worked as my assistant... she recommended me for my new job, and I hired her again! And we are sweeeet chocolate and fine honey side by side every day and as a team, we can do anything! As pals, look out! :)

Still, I stopped myself short when I was talking to a neighbor down the street and asked her about her son... I said, how's your boy? And I think my eyes must have opened too wide or something, because she nearly wet herself laughing at me:)

[Karenina]

171. Intimate relationships

on whatever level, sensitize one. It's ALL GOOD!

[whopis01]

59. Anytime you have standards that differ based on race, it is racism.

If you would not call a black man 'boy', you should not call a white man 'boy. Period.

The simple test that I like to use is to remove the race description from the sentence and see if it still makes sense. If it creates a paradox then it was a racist thought.

For example:
"There are contexts where it would be acceptable to call a man 'boy' that I wouldn't tolerate using for a man."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Sorry, no.

Real life doesn't work out that way. It's a little more complicated.

If a white man refers to a black man as a "nigger," then he's a racist.

If a black man refers to another black man as "nigger," he's probably not a racist.

[JuniperLea]

160. What about when my black girl friend calls me wigga?

Can I call her nigga back? I wouldn't... but can I?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

165. Is the couch comfortable?

:P

[JuniperLea]

170. Haha! No silly... common mistake though...

I'm a straight woman. My best black girlfriend works with me.

Writing style? Name? I'm mistaken for a man a lot around here:) I don't care though... I'm not sexist either!

:P

[Orsino]

208. Incorrect. Ludicrously so. n/t

[whopis01]

340. If you treat people differently based on their race, then you are racist. It is that simple. n/t

[Orsino]

343. Wow. Wrong twice in a row.

Showing no sensitivity to the scars left by racism can sure as hell be racist, though.

The invisibility of race is a fine goal to work towards, but clumsy groping isn't going to get us there. Self-righteousness will further slow the process.

[whopis01]

365. Treating people as equal is not clumsy groping. It is the right thing to do.

It is not self-righteousness, it is just right.

[Orsino]

369. Ignoring the possibility of offense is wrong.

Hospitals don't treat everyone equally, either. They triage, giving care where it is needed most.

Mature people have also learned to do this in personal and social relationships.

[whopis01]

371. You are right, hospitals do treat people differently.

Charities don't treat everyone equally either. They give aid to those who need and seek donations from those who can afford to give.

There are plenty of examples of situations where people are and should be treated differently. None of those should ever be based on race. Plenty of people do base those decisions on race, but it is wrong to do so.


I don't want to be treated differently because my skin is a darker shade than someone else's.

I don't need more or less care because of the color of my skin.

I am not less of a person and do not need special care and handling because I have darker skin.

If you use my race as a basis for how you treat me, then you are racist.

[Orsino]

372. Still oversimplifying, after all that insight?

I get that you don't want to be treated differently because of ethnicity. There are a lot of people who feel that way, I'm sure.

[whopis01]

375. Being wanted to be treated as an equal is neither an oversimplification nor an overcomplication.

You feel that you can treat people differently based on their race without it being racism.

What you are failing to see is that racism takes many forms. It can even come from kindness and good intentions, believe it or not. But it always boils down to the fact that using race as a basis for deciding how you should treat a person is a form of racism.

I actually disagree with the OP's views on racism. I don't believe that saying Obama is articulate and pleasant is inherently racist. Even saying "That Obama boy won" is not necessarily racist. I know people that use the term 'boy' to refer to just about any male and would be just as likely to refer to 'that Bush boy' or 'that Edwards boy' or 'that Obama boy'. You can certainly make an argument as to whether or not it is appropriate to refer to any adult as a boy, but they are not being racist when they make such comments. On the other hand, if someone where to always call a black man 'boy' and never do the same for a white man, well then that would be racist.

The danger (and it is one that many refuse to see) in treating people of a particular race in a different way than you would others, even if it is in a kinder, gentler, more polite way, is that it continues to drive a wedge between people and separates people of different races from one another.
People can be racist even with the best of intentions.

I don't know if you have ever had the experience of walking into a room and seeing people start treating you just slightly differently than they treat everyone else. Having them think twice about what they say so that they don't offend you. If you have not had that experience, please take my word for it, it is a pretty lousy feeling.

I just want to be treated the same as anyone else. Is that really too much to ask?

[Orsino]

376. Assuming that everyone else would feel the same is the oversimplification. n/t

[whopis01]

378. I never made any such assumption

For you to insinuate that I did is quite insulting.

To this point you have referred to my view as ludicrously incorrect, self-righteous, and insinuated that it is immature, so I suppose I shouldn't really take any more offense for this particular transgression.

I would suggest that you go ahead treating people however you feel you should do so, and I will go on treating them as equals. Our viewpoints clearly part ways in regards to this point.

[Orsino]

380. Conflating how you would like to be treated...

...without how everyone should be treated is that very assumption.

[Blue_Roses]

234. "uppity"...people still say that word?

I thought it was now called snob...

[salin]

236. that word was used to demean

a colleague, within the past year. Yes, people still use that word.

[dorkulon]

268. What about the Fat Boys?

Okay, just kidding.

[RadiationTherapy]

282. I spent most of my young life in Massachusetts...

I played football at a very rural Kentucky college. Several of us were watching football one afternoon and during a commercial a team mate changed the channel to get a score from another game. I said "Boy, you better switch that channel back!"; we were all goofing off and I didn't think twice about the comment. 2 minutes later three of his friends were holding him back and explaining that "McLean's a yankee, he don't know!!"

He is black; I am white.

I won't forget that gaffe and I will not call a black man 'boy'; friend or not.

[salin]

284. good example

thanks for sharing it and a belated welcome to DU.

[demobabe]

342. I had something similar to that happen once

Except I was the one who caught it before damage could be done...

Huge newspaper I worked for was reporting that - I think it was Dennis Rodman (can't remember now) was joining the Phoenix Suns basketball team.

The headline that was written was:

"Rodman Adds New Shine to Suns"

The copy desk had no idea that was a bad thing to say. I think east coasters might understand this one more.

But this was the same year when Governor Evan Mecham defended calling black children "pickaninnies" because that's how he grew up and that the childrens' mothers referred to them that way. (And then he talked about how round the Japanese businessmen's eyes got when they saw all the golf courses in Phoenix. Classy.)

[MrScorpio]

5. Work it, Baby Love

Work it!

[aquart]

6. Now do one on sexism.

[xultar]

7. You read my mind.

[Sugar Smack]

13. What aquart said.

:bounce:

[BuyingThyme]

8. You are completely and embarrassingly wrong.

Racism is not determined by grammatical context; it's determined by intent.

[EFerrari]

20. By context. No kidding. But kudos to xultar for moving to

try to identify what is happening.

[BuyingThyme]

22. What's happening?

Are we still on that "buck" thing?

[EFerrari]

28. No. It's just that people don't know how to talk about this.

[xultar]

36. Someone posted that people should know better to use the word BOY when referring to a black man..

I'm trying to help them see that a simplistic approach such as that doesn't' always work.

[EFerrari]

63. And, you're right. It's all about context.

That's why racists can speak in code, isn't it? Because the context is everything.

[xultar]

100. DING! DING! DING!

[JuniperLea]

161. Sure clue: whispering

:) Do they whisper certain words? heh

[FloridaJudy]

337. I bend over backwards

If a white friend did something spectacular, I'd yell "Wow! You go, girl!" and applaud. If an African American friend did something spectacular, I'd whoop "Wow! You rock!" and applaud. Both are high compliments, but because of historical context, I'd bite my tongue before calling an African American woman a "girl" (unless, of course, she were actually four years old...).

This reminds of an incident I witnessed during the seventies. I was flying back from Europe, and an extremely fashionably dressed woman was in the customs line ahead of me, carrying a South African passport and accompanied by what looked like a dozen matching Louis Vuitton suitcases. A black customs inspector politely asked her if she had anything to declare. She glared at him and snipped "What do you mean, Boy?". What happened next is one of the most wonderful things it's ever been my privilege to witness.

Fortunately, his buddy waved me through, because I figure they've just now finished checking that last hat-box....

[salin]

339. bwahaha!

[xultar]

33. I am talking to someone who said you can never use the word BOY in a sentence where

a black man is the subject.

This is a 101 class. We'll get to intent in 201. YOu gotta take it slow.

[BuyingThyme]

40. I thought you started a thread on DU.

I guess you don't understand how this works.

You see, if you want to respond to something you see in a thread, you will have to respond within that thread. What you did was to create a brand new thread.

I doubt they have classes to teach this stuff, but if they did, you would know where to start.

[xultar]

42. Oh sweetie. I did..then I thought the whole board could benefit from my wisdom.

:)

[BuyingThyme]

45. Wrong again.

[xultar]

64. tee hee hee...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. And?

Like I said, there are vanishingly few contexts where it would pass.

Now I realize there are plenty of bumpkins out there who don't realize the historical or cultural significance of calling black men "boys." People who aren't racist but use the term accidentally or coincidently.

But I think when it comes to presidential campaigns, those naive yokels are few and far between. And when it just so happens the black man in question is your leading opponent... well that's quite a coincidence.

I also think there are far more people who realize perfectly the significance, and *wink* *wink* pretend it was just an innocent circumstance. Like certain republican politicans who are fond of the term "tar baby."

[Leopolds Ghost]

269. "tar baby" is not a racist term at all. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

377. Neither is the word "boy."

Except in certain contexts.

[VOX]

101. Not necessarily by intent alone -- racism is often borne by ignorance...

Where there may be no conscious intent.

For example, a 4 year-old may speak the "N" word, but have no clue regarding the impact of that word.

Likewise, an otherwise well-adjusted teenager may, out of ignorance, actually think that blacks can't swim because they "lack buoyancy."

Poorly educated or isolated adults get into this trap often.

On edit: I emphasize the term "conscious intent," because teenagers and adults should know better.

[BuyingThyme]

117. You are correct.

But maybe, in that case, the intent of somebody else is being channeled through the child.

[MadMaddie]

200. No I would say it is determined by both....

Grammatical as Xultar has explained and of course by intent.

One doesn't exist without the other.

[ecstatic]

287. True, but a lot of people don't intend to be racist, but their worldview is part of the problem nt

[Radio_Lady]

360. Nice photo, Truth Hurts A Lot... Thanks for posting it.

[RoadRage]

9. "Obama is articulate and pleasant."

Why exactly is this one racist?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. It's patronizing.

It's like when Bill O'Reilly goes to a black owned restaurant and is surprised they're not running around half naked and banging on drums.

[Mojorabbit]

24. I disagree

A person is either articulate or not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. And it's generally presumed by racists that black persons are not.

Which is why they're enamored with articulate black people.

[Mojorabbit]

34. This is where I don't get it

I don't presume or assume anything about anyone. Bush is not articulate. Obama is. I can't see where it is racist to state a fact.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Do you think John Edwards is articulate?

Do you ever here people going around saying "Boy, John Edwards is articulate! He's not like Al Sharpton at all!"

[MrCoffee]

66. would it be different if you compared Edwards to Bush?

as in, "Boy, John Edwards is articulate! He's not like Numbnuts at all!"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. Yes, that would be different.

I really don't see why this is so complicated.

Don't patronize black people.

There, problem solved.

[Mojorabbit]

167. No I don't

especially. I still say either one is articulate or not. Period.

[salin]

54. Here is the learning part...

becoming aware that this is one of those phrases that is used to express "pleasant surpprise" (ala "the exception" phenomenon) by racists upon encountering a black person who does not fit the racist's stereo type of how that person would behave/speak/etc. These are code words.

Here is the thing - now that you know this is how that phrase is often used - you can chose to use the phrase (you can claim that isn't your intention - but you run the risk that many would think it is a case of doth protesting too much) but you can no longer feign ignorance about the message that very well might be read into the phrase. Now it is up to you.

[karlrschneider]

133. When someone rises above the stereotype it IS a pleasant surprise.

good grief...

[salin]

140. yikes.

are you suggesting that you expect black people to only match racist's stereotypes of blacks, and when a black person exceeds that stereo type you are pleasantly surprised? Please tell me I am misreading your response.

[karlrschneider]

144. I am saying anyone who dispels a stereotype has done something worthy of praise.

And conversely those who perpetuate it just fuck it up for the others. Why is that so hard to grasp?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Thanks for dispelling the stereotype of white supremacy, Karl.

It's a praise worthy attempt.

[salin]

151. ow.

pointing out the evident performance art post!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

143. LOL

Just like Bill O'Reilly was so surprised in that restaurant!

Oh Karl, you're such a card. I'm going to have to remember this one.

[justanaveragedude]

335. Not defending Bill O', but I have to ask

I have grown up having very little exposure to the black community other than driving through it in order to get from point A to B. I have certainly never been anywhere remotely like Harlem. However if I did, I would be surprised if it were just like dining at the local Olive Garden in the predominantly white area of town I live in. Why wouldn't I expect it to be different? In Harlem any local eatery is likely to be dominated by people with a very different background than me. While it is obvious that we will likely have a lot in common, I'm sure there are also significant differences as well that might have some impact on the experience.

I recently took a business trip to Atlantic City for a trade show (my first time north of DC). I had dinner at an Italian Restaurant with a group of mostly Italian New Yorkers. It was a HELL of a lot different than eating at an Italian place in Tampa. It was like being in an episode of the Soprano's except we were talking industry business, not about whacking anyone. I actually had people "vouching" for me. It was GREAT! It was a different experience for me and a whole lotta fun.

So yeah, I would expect dining in Harlem to be different than my usual dining experiences and would be surprised if it weren't different. Does that make me a racist?

[NOLALady]

253. OMFG!

[Karenina]

258. Don't mind Karl

He's our resident curmudgeon. ;-)

[Mojorabbit]

172. No.

If I call someone articulate, it is a compliment. You are saying I can't call someone articulate because of their race which is ridiculous.

[salin]

177. I didn't say "you couldn't"

the point is that if you chose to use what you now know are 'code words' (or code word in this case) to describe a black person, then some of your listeners or readers (depending on the venue) may draw the inference based upon your reference about you. You are free to say whatever you want. But if you chose to use known code words ... well you can't crawl into other peoples' minds and force the listener or reader to *not* draw the inference about your intention of the use of the word (ala whether you were using it as a code word or not).

[Mojorabbit]

190. Good grief

I am not going to choose my words of praise for someone on the off chance some moron sees it as a code word. Someone who is looking for those words is not worth my time. If I think someone is articulate and want to compliment them then I think I ought to be able to do so regardless of what some racist thinks of how it is worded. The thought that I cannot say an african american man is articulate when he is...well, I am beyond words. It would never have occured to me that it was some kind of code word. It would be a compliment.

[salin]

193. go for it.

but if you get an uncomfortable "uh, *pause* thanks" response... well you will understand why.

[Karenina]

195. Mojorabbit, what you're saying is that the experience

of legions of us who have attended Ivy League schools, been on the "bleeding edge" of integration, excelled in our fields and endured the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune means NOTHING to you when we explain the connotations of that word AS APPLIED TO US. You don't give a shit how we feel or how such "code words" have stung us, we're ALL just MORONS anyway. YOU have your "white privilege" of definition and SIMPLY REFUSE to even ACKNOWLEDGE of our experience. Thank you for making YOUR position so clear.

[salin]

196. that's about the long and short of it... see it would be too inconvenient

to have to think about word choice, and you should just *know* his/her intent is a real compliment and not assume that s/he or ANY of those folks who used the code words in the past to parcel out denegrations you should know they didn't mean codewords - the problem is just in your head, you see.

*you do know, of course, I am being facetious*

[Mojorabbit]

202. No what I am saying is

you are telling me I cannot compliment a black man for being articulate but I can compliment a hispanic man or an asian man and it isn't a deal. You are telling me I cannot compliment someone because of the color of their skin and I find that amazing.

[Karenina]

210. Do whatever the fuck you want. I don't care.

IGNORE US when we tell you how a reference has been used to hurt us and how we DO NOT hear it as a "compliment." Knock yourself out while holding on to your white privileged insensitivity.

I recall a story about a Buddhist priest who visited South America. He made a hand signal to the crowd that HE THOUGHT, after exposure to Amis, meant OK! THUMBS UP! As in "Happy to be here." Turns out the signal in THAT culture meant "FUCK YOU!" He had the wisdom to apologize profoundly, asking forgiveness for his misunderstanding.

You seem adamant about giving an offensive signal EVEN AFTER being informed WHY it offends. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT!
It's a "free" country!!! You have your First Amendment Rights! :rofl:

[Mojorabbit]

252. I lived a good part of my life

overseas. I am a Heinz 57 mix and have lived and loved men of all kinds of races in my lifetime and never heard of such a thing as calling someone articulate an insult till now. I am not kidding when I say this is amazing to me and hard to wrap my head around.Is this an insult only in America or the rest of the world too?

[Karenina]

257. I certainly wish you had POSED THAT QUESTION FIRST

rather than INVALIDATE, IGNORE, DISMISS and insist on your own definitions. It is uniquely American. I speak as one who integrated an elementary school in 1957 and NEVER SAW another face like mine in a classroom until I was a senior in high school. The word "articulate" OFTEN carried so much non-verbal sting and contempt, ESPECIALLY when I outperformed my classmates. I CRINGE when I hear it.

The runner-up is being a classically-trained musician with a degree from one of the most prestigious conservatories in the world and being asked if I can read music.

CAN YOU HEAR ME YET? :shrug:

[Mojorabbit]

259. My definitions

come from my life experience where it is a compliment, yours come from your experiences where it is not and yes,I do hear you.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

308. Hurt Someone by Calling Them Articulate?

Fine: You are inarticulate.

You are telling me I cannot compliment a black man for being articulate but I can compliment a hispanic man or an asian man and it isn't a deal. You are telling me I cannot compliment someone because of the color of their skin and I find that amazing.

There's another word for that: Racism.

[salin]

310. there you go again.

saying things that come off as sounding like: I don't care that I offend people - they just shouldn't be offended because I said so.

Seriously, you are starting to sound like the posts should end with "nanny nanny boo boo".

[fightthegoodfightnow]

311. Please Don't Put Quotation Marks Around Words

.......and attribute them to me..............when they are NOT my words.

Are you telling me I cannot compliment a black man for being articulate but I can compliment a hispanic man or an asian man?

Seriously, you are starting to sound like the posts that end with 'nanny nanny boo boo."

[salin]

313. Corrected

to not mislead per quotation marks. I wasn't trying to say you said that - just demarking the part of the statement that is how your words sound, given that folks have tried to talk with you but you don't hear a word anyone says - no conversation.

And the way you pop up all over the thread to say the exact same thing over and over again really does come off like a little kid trying to taunt someone else hence my "nanny nanny boo boo" comment.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

314. Right..........

............because given folks like me have 'tried to talk to you but you don't hear a word anyone says.......no conversation.'

LOL ........... indeed. What a load of self serving sanctimonious crap.

Read the original post.

It's RACIST to say that it is inappropriate to EVER call a black man articulate.

[salin]

316. can you even acknowledge... that the term

has been (and still is) used to send a demeaning message to black people to whom they were addressing or speaking about? Because there are more than a few examples in the thread. If you can just acknowledge that, then a conversation can begin. But you seem to be stuck on YOU and what YOU think someone is telling YOU you can or can not say.

If you can not begin to acknowledge the experience of others, than it really shouldn't matter to you whether or not people think your comments are racist or not. And that is what this conversation ultimately is about. Not what YOU say, but how what you said may be interpretted by others - with an explanation as to why.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

318. Read the Original Post

He writes: 'If someone says "Obama is articulate and pleasant." Well, that is racist.'

Can you acknowledge that is bullsh*t?

If you are going to accuse someone of being a racist for agreeing that Obama is 'articulate and pleasant', I can't wait to hear what you say about me when I say you are inarticulate and disagreeable.

I'll leave you to say it's not what you SAY, but how you INTERPRET what I say.

I have no intention of getting in your warped mind.

[salin]

319. thanks

you can't respond. We are done. You proved the point I was trying to make about your lack of willingness to have a conversation. You just want combat. Thus each statement, question, etc. I will read as looking for a fight. No thanks. Have a nice day.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

321. Still Can't Answer?

Are you telling me I cannot compliment a black man for being articulate but I can compliment a hispanic man or an asian man?

No surprise there.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

328. Must Have Hit a Nerve

:hi:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

325. The Experience of Others?

Hhhmmmmm........ gosh.

Is that like being accused of racism for agreeing that someone is articulate?

Until you acknowledge that is BS.... you diminish the experiences of those who have faced racism.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

315. Still Waiting

Are you telling me I cannot compliment a black man for being articulate but I can compliment a hispanic man or an asian man?

[salin]

317. I haven't told you anything you can or can not say.

Not once. So the question is irrelevant.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

320. Sure You Have

You have not denounced someone who accuses others of racism for agreeing that Obama is articulate and pleasant.

So the question and the thread is CERTAINLY relevant.

Try answering it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

324. Was that a Yes or a No?

Just asking. LOL.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

329. Folks Have Tried to Talk to You Too

......and yet you don't hear a word.

LOL.

Two can play that game.

[salin]

217. I will try this one more time, even thought it seems pointless to do so,

you can say whatever you please. But you might be perceived as being an *ss or worse given your choice of words. But since you seem down right intent to do as you please, than perhaps those who perceive the words as conveying something in additional to the literal words, well after this discussion I would have to say that perhaps thost inferences will not be far off the mark.

Heck, once the degree to which this is offensive to folks is pointed out to you and why, if your stubborness to be able to freely say racist crap to people in order to protect your right to say whatever you want to say, well one has to begin to think that perhaps some folks interpretations of what those words mean might be correct. Indeed you are saying that avoiding insulting folks by using Jim Crow era insults is an inconvenience to you, and if you deliver such an insult well it doesn't mean anything (except that you don't mind givin Jim Crow era insults to people, and that just might say something in and of itself. :shrug: )

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

181. Ooo, aren't you smart!

You're a credit to your race!

[Mojorabbit]

203. You do not have any idea

what my race mix is.

[Karenina]

216. Must be some "Cherokee" in there somewhere!

:evilgrin:

[Mojorabbit]

254. No

Portuguese, African, Scottish, Irish, English...and who knows what else but no American Indian.

[Leopolds Ghost]

270. Yes. As in "they're good people"

A common expression used in the Deep South meaning "he's one of the good
n----, there are good n---- and bad n-----" (which is what they used
to say) and that is people who claimed to not be racist, but they had no
problem using the N word or patronizing blacks at every turn because
everyone around them did it, so they internalized the severe racism
of the community. It's even worse now that they're conditioned not to
utter the "N" word because now all it takes to be anti-racist is to be
opposed to the "N" word... Reaganism, an inherently racist philosophy,
has been mainstreamed in American society and even some liberals here
on DU buy into the "good blacks" (Obama) vs. "bad black people" (i.e.
people with a long family history in the slave states who have a
so-called "inner city culture" which black people, unlike Italians or
Irish in the 1930s who were similarly herded into the cities to work
menial jobs, are expected to "overcome" and be ashamed of).

[xultar]

41. DING DING DING!

[JuniperLea]

166. I guess that's why I didn't get it...

I was going to call you on that one too. My personal physician is black, handsome, brilliant, and quite articulate. I think of him as the last three things, but not the first. Same goes for a couple of girlfriends from high school who went on to become politicians... articulate as all hell... better spoken than many of our classmates... of any color.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

246. More PRE-JUDGING Something Not in Evidence

Who exactly is "THEY"?

Give me a break.

Calling ONE man articulate doesn't mean anything other than one man is articulate.

[struggle4progress]

50. Howsabout: "Unlike Bush, Obama is articulate and pleasant"? Clause help me any?

[salin]

61. I would say that changes the context and how it would be read, but

of course if you said that in the general public you might get smacked by some unmarked freeper for insulting the president but that's more about the foaming at the mouth freeper crowd than anything else. (Like Romney telling Huckabee he needs to appologize to bush for criticizing his foreign policy approach- that was pandering to the foaming freeper contigent.)

[struggle4progress]

105. After decades of using my (sometimes very big) mouth, I've never yet been smacked by a freeper

I suppose they can never quite figure out whether I would:

turn them into a "drunk-who-attacked-St-Francis" news story?
sue them into penniless poverty?
try immediately to tear their throats out?
burn their house down a month later?
-- or just laugh it off while I kept on saying what they didn't want to hear?

as we say in piglatin non illegitimi carborundum

[salin]

112. hey if you ever get through Indiana

(presuming I am still here) let's go out and antagonize some freepers! :D

Not that I am afraid to antagonize, my reality is I rarely am around freepers - either in a very urban part of a big city, or in a fairly enlightened college town - but you creaeda great image so I thought the image sounded fun!

[struggle4progress]

132. If I is passes by, I will looks ye up to lift a frosty

[salin]

135. That would be a pleasure.

:toast:

[Pool Hall Ace]

52. Oh no, did O'Reilly actually do that?

:wow: Not that I should be surprised.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Yes.

He didn't say "half naked and beating drums."

But it was the same sentiment.

[Stinky The Clown]

99. It was more along the lines of not yelling, screaming, and calling the waiter M-Fer

It demonstrated BOTH racism and ignorance. If we leap to an assumption of maliciousness (a safe leap to make), we get a hat trick.

[bowens43]

79. Nonsense. There is nothing racist about articulate and pleasent.

[Karenina]

90. You're NOT listening

or READING or making any effort to comprehend. And THAT my dear Watson, IS the problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

145. Do you know what the word "patronizing" means?

I know it's a big word with lots of syllables, but I think you can puzzle it out.

[Guaranteed]

192. Being patronizing isn't racist. I think you're missing why that phrase is racist.

Saying Obama is a "nice guy" is patronizing, but not racist.

The racism comes from the inference that he is comparing Obama to other black people, as if it is out of the ordinary for a black person to speak and get along with others well.

[gmudem]

156. No.

So if a white person is called articulate the person who says that must think all white people are bumbling idiots?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

168. No.

Just the ones who can't understand the simple concept of why it's racist to patronize black people.

[xultar]

21. Articulate and plesant assumes that that a black man doesn't have command of

the English language. If you say he is a great speaker then you aren't referring to his command of the English language you are talking about his skills as an orator. Pleasant just got hooked in due to the articulate being racist. IF it had been said by itself then it would have been o.k.

[WI Independent]

72. I grew up in the deep south...

in the 60s/70s. Trust me, most true "good ole boy" racist would never use the word "articulate"... or even know what it means. :)

[Gormy Cuss]

No, but an upstanding society type bigot would.

You know the type -- the same ones who assume that the only African-American man at a function must be a waiter.

[smoogatz]

80. The biggest problem with "articulate" in reference to Obama is that it's inaccurate.

He's light-years beyond "articulate." He's eloquent. He's galvanizing. He's a brilliant, brilliant speaker. Seriously—I watched all three of the front-runners last night, and Obama blew Edwards' and Hillary's doors off. No contest. They were okay; he was GREAT. And I'm not actually an Obama fan all that much (the Social Security thing is a problem for me), so I think I'm coming at it fairly objectively. Sure, it's kind of racist to say that a black football player is "articulate" when you wouldn't bother to point that out (or be surprised by it) in a white player: it's beyond racist in Obama's case. It's racist AND it's a gross understatement of fact. It's like calling Jimi Hendrix "a guitar player."

[otherlander]

336. Eloquence is overrated.

If you're eloquent enough you can get people to believe anything even if it's not true.

[bowens43]

83. It's only assumed if the person doing the assuming is a racist.

[salin]

86. sadly, no. One using code words

unless the context of what is said takes the valence away from the code word, may be presumed to be racist *because* of the use of known code words. So gee, it may not be your intent - but your choosing to use the code word(s) leaves the interpretation of racism up to the listener/reader. Now you can't even feign ignorance at knowing that this is code word and how it is used as code word as it is described throughout the thread.

[kitkat65]

118. Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to state that but you said

it perfectly.

Assumptions on all sides.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

229. Good Try

The presumption comes only when someone equates articulate and pleasant with something other than admirable qualities.

Talk about PRE-JUDGING as in prejudice.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

231. Assumption

Indeed.

Try assuming articulate and pleasant means articulate and pleasant.

[Terran]

35. That one needs some context

There's this whole thing about how certain otherwise more or less well-intentioned people go around marveling how "articulate" Obama is (or insert various other highly-placed African-Americans as needed). The point is that *anyone* in that position is going to be articulate and pleasant, so going to the trouble of expressing surprise/amazement (even mildly so) that Obama is suggests the speaker thinks that Black people generally are *not* articulate or pleasant. It's a special bit of cluelessness that a lot of peiople have.

Chris Rock hard-wired this whole idea in a routine some years back, talking about Colin Powell. " 'He's SO WELL SPOKEN!' Well, what's he supposed to sound like?? 'I'ma be the Prez-o-dent, an' drop me a BOMB!' "

[gollygee]

43. "He's not like most black people. He can talk and he doesn't pick fights."

There's the translation.

[VOX]

127. Or, "He's so clean and well-spoken that we can actually let him into the house!"

There's a strong element of infantilization in racist thought, as if an entire ethnicity was made up of children (or less).

[gmudem]

162. Or it could just mean he's articulate

But that's not possible is it? It could mean he's a better speaker than many other politician's couldn't it? People are making a mountain out of a molehill on this one.

[Blue_Roses]

237. It's condescending...

[salin]

243. Indeed,

when I was called that down thread, the context only suggested sarcasm and condescension.

Let me pre-empt the countercharge (not yours, but to the statement), I am clearly also 'humorless'. :D

[RoadRage]

294. I'm going to reply a day later...

This is not a patronizing statement at all. You would have to take every statement that any black person would ever consider "patronizing" and then outlaw it.. and that obviously varies from person to person. I seriously doubt Obama would consider this statement a racial slam in most contexts.

It's used to describe him.. HE is articulate.. not because he is or isn't black - but because of the way he communicates. He is "PLEASANT" is describing his personality.. some black people I know are very pleasant.. others are not. Some white people are pleasant.. others are not.

Giving a person two compliments, in my mind does not speak to racisim.

"Obama suprisingly doesn't sound like an ebonics machine and is nice for a black guy". THAT IS RACIST!

[provis99]

10. this makes my head hurt

Too much stuff to remember. Maybe we need a Miss Manners Book of Racial Etiquette to clear up the confusion.

[Karenina]

85. No, you just need to widen your circle of intimates.

It's like language. Immerse yourself and you pick things up quite quickly.

[salin]

89. quick diversion...

:hi: Great to see you! Hope all is well with you.

[Karenina]

104. Frohes Neues!!!

:hug::hi::hug:

[salin]

116. *blush*

and I have to admit that I can't speak German :-( But I am presuming a friendly/warm greeting! :hug:

[JuniperLea]

198. This is the best advice in the entire thread!

I'm tempted to tell you about "authentic Negro barbeque"... oh hell, why not!

Two of my best girlfriends came to dinner, and several family members and assorted others. These particular girlfriends are black. Well, one friend of mine is hell bent on becoming one of the top five barbecuers in the country. He asked one of my friends about "authentic Negro barbeque"... I wanted to crawl under my own dining room table! They handled it so well! And I changed the subject as quickly as possible... "No, Howard barbecued today, so it's authentic Cracker barbecue!" Sheesh! We never spoke of this again, until recently when Ms. B asked me what the hell that was all about. I hugged her, apologized, and explained that this guy really didn't mean to be weird... he just was... sort of... but he's a nice guy... oh hell. We laughed, rubbed our eyes, and went back to what we were doing. I feel I need to say something to him about this, nicely, with love and respect. Bullying or finger pointing wouldn't help. But frankly, it was easier to talk to Ms. B about it!!

[midnight]

12. Yes, I agree those racist comments are just unacceptable.

It is so amazing how acceptable some people think racism is.

[truedelphi]

14. I'd extend some leeway to anyone over the age of eighty who said

That Obama boy won

As long as they would say, "That Edwards boy won," etc.

At a certain age, a lot of us end up being boys, girls, pumpkins and dears.

[Karenina]

191. People over 80 can say whatever the hell they want.

:silly:

[salin]

194. the SO of one of my good friends in grad school

used to say that he oculdn't wait to be really old - because he could get away with saying crazy and/or "colorful" things and no one would think much about it. heh. That idea has stayed with me for years.

[Karenina]

197. Years ago, I went to Texas to visit my homie

She came from OLD TEXAS oil $. Don't ask me why she was born into that family; she died young. Her mom (now in her 90s) was a prominent and imposing figure in the community. We dutifully dressed and went to the drawing room before dinner. I noticed a butterfly specimen displayed on the table, knew its name and asked if she was a lepidopterist. We were a bit late for dinner as she then HAD to show me her VERY AMAZING collection. After dinner, she instructed her faithful black Hausmeisterin to prepare HER guest room for me. THAT created quite an uproar in the servants' quarters.

Many of Mrs. A's opinions about "the way things are" were repugnant to me. However, I was able to knock a hole in her racist wall. She was old and NOT about to change. I realized that being her first "exception" was a tiny step. When my beloved friend passed, I called her. "I know how much my daughter loved you and I do too." A tiny step.

[salin]

199. a tiny step in the big picture, but probably

a fairly big step for your friend's mother.

I am fortunate to have been raised in a liberal family in ways that have effected me throughout life, but that I wasn't aware of until I was much older. For example, my parents joined a social-activist church and were asked to go through the ceremony (of becoming a member) with a black family - the first in the congregation - but to do so in a message of unity. Not so big, but I learned later that in that same era, my Dad learned of a movement led by churches in DesMoines to desegregate housing and he pushed to get our church to then get other churches to do the same in Bloomington - getting a huge number to sign a pledge against discriminating in selling/buying and renting based on race, ethnicity or creed. He received the annual local NAACP person of the year award for that. It happened just after I was born - so i wasn't aware of it, nor was I aware of rigid segregation (which I later learned had been the rule in the decade before I was born) because by the time i was old enough to notice - there were folks of different races and nationalities in my neighborhood. Finally, as a kid my mom did a carpooling thing, I just remember in Kindergarten being schlepped around in the car when mom picked kids up and took them to a day care. Again years later I learned that when the first head start program began in the city, there was no transportation to take kids to and from the center. My mom and a number of other community ladies joined together to create a carpool system until a form of transporation was established.

God I love my parents. Sadly I didn't learn about much of this until a year or so before my father passed. I was then working with teens on the verge of dropout in Detroit. Dad considered me (his words) a "secular missionary" - I bristle at the term - but given that he would be in his mid to late eighties if he were alive, and his work - I'll forgive the connotations of the term. At that point in life I then learned how in some ways I was carrying on a tradition in the family.

I have no idea why your post inspired this response - but thanks for the opportunity for me to get warm and fuzzy thinking about my parents and the legacy they have passed on.

[Redstone]

206. That's a very touching story. Thanks for posting it. You can find decency in some places

you'd not expect to, yes?

Redstone

[truedelphi]

304. Salin, that is a wonderful and descriptive tale

I think the thing about all of us in America is that on some level we are all trying to understand the "race" thing. Or if we already understand it, hoping to somehow get a messge across to those who don't.

I remember sitting in a cafeteria with two American friends over in Denmark and realizing that we were definitely outsiders - that everyone in that huge cafeteria might as well have been cousins to each other. The same blond hair and facial coloring. Multiplied six hundred times over.

That's when I "got" it. I live in, and come from, a nation of mutts. Pure and simple, that is what is so different about life in North America.

[salin]

309. Thanks.

I think those of us who lived in multicultural areas - especially if we are white are trying to understand the race thing (I think for many who are not white, there is living it I don't know how much figuring out has to go on... though I know some exceptions to that role as well.) And I don't know that those of us in the majority can ever fully get it - we can just deepen our own perspectives. I think, however, there are a whole lot of folks who are blissfully unaware. And frankly don't care. And sometimes can be obstinant and obtuse in their desire to "not care."

Xultar raised a great point with another thread yesterday. I will not do it justice, but the gist of it is that due to the Obama campaign a whole lot of people are going to get their eyes opened at the treatment of Obama on the way, because they will have an emotional attachment. And with this brush get to the confusing points of what is an insult, what isn't, what to be concerned about, what not, etc. That maybe, just maybe with more folks gaining a greater awareness not of the overt racism (which because its overt is easy to see/get) but to the more latent/covert racism/prejudices. And then, perhaps, grow.

Maybe this campaign will help us mature a little bit from a nation of puppy mutts to a nation of slightly more mature mitts.

I think this first follow thread has been a great one - so if you happen to read this Xultar - Kudoos again!

[truedelphi]

333. Also,I don't mean to imply that I "get" the race thing

I'm inside a white skin. I grew up inside a secure paradigm of middle class income, with
economic, educational advantages etc.

But in Denmark I "got" that our nation is really on a different path than many others.
No one in Denmark needs ever really worry about the race issue - it simply doesn't affect them.

They are of a homogenous stock of people.

We aren't. We are radically different from each other, yet, get this - the fact is that there are no "pure bred" blue bloodlines here. The slavery that was rampant in this nation means that many people. both blacks and whites, don't know whose genetic material they come from.


I was curled up last week with Rita Mae Brown and your initial posting above could almost have walked out of one of her books.

[elocs]

16. Now if I were looking at 2 candidates to support

and one of them was articulate and pleasant, and one was not, and I preferred the one who was articulate and pleasant as the deciding factor, then if that candidate was black it would be wrong to say that? I think I am good at recognizing pc speech, but it often seems that we go out of our way to find things by which to be offended.

[xultar]

30. What you miss is ...white folks always call and educated black person articulate...

they ever say that about a white person.

Have you ever said Biden was articulate? No HAve you heard anyone call Biden articulate...NO...why? Because he's white and educated and it is assumed as such.

But when you are black...being black overrides the education cuz people don't always assume we are educated. So when we speak well, with a great command of the english language it's such a surprise that they always have to add that we are articulate...rather than assuming it just off the bat.

[Blue_Roses]

250. that pretty much sums it up...

you "articulated" that well...

;)

[kalibex]

291. Got it. n/t

[1awake]

307. I agree,

but many people (at least where I live) use the same terminology for individuals who are viewed as young. My grandfather who currently is 94, use to tell me about Kennedy.. how he was a "young pup".. how "that boy was very articulate". I think Obama is viewed in similar light (in reference to being young). People's perceptions vary, and while "white folks" need to understand more than their own circumstances and beliefs, everyone needs to be accountable for their own assumptions.

[salin]

74. if you choose to use code words (described by various people above)

now that you know they are code words, then so be it - but if some folks read or hear your words and catch the code words and make assumptions about you and your intent because of your use of code words - well thats now on you.

[tekisui]

17. Thanks for that.

Racism is etched deep into Our Society.

[Bitwit1234]

18. I don't believe in racism in any form.

I was raised in a rural community with black people and white people living within range of each other. I have never ever in my whole life used the n word. I have never used any ethnic slang word. I think it is characterless to the person using it. My parents taught me better.

But that doesn't say that the people in the south will vote for Obama, they won't because he is black. And he won't win there because of it..Look at all the stuff still going on in this day and age. And seven years of the bush administration didn't help. Maybe If we get a Democratic president things will change.

My son was in one of the first integrated classes in the state of Maryland and believe it or not things were fine. Maybe because all the kids knew each other previously...now a days the kids in school fight between the races like the devil. I don't know what happened in the ensuing years. If things would have went along like they were going in the late 60's and 70's we would be well along to a racist free society. But we're not it is worst.And you all know as well as I do that the south is red and republican. And it AIN'T gonna change anywhere soon.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Heh.

So you're saying we shouldn't nominate Obama because the southern states won't vote for him.

[TlalocW]

25. Another example

"Iowans sure weren't niggardly with their votes for Obama," is not racist but will make your superiors force you to take a sensitivity class if you work for certain universities.

I agree with someone above - racism is intent, not grammar (or even vocabulary).

TlalocW

[bigbrother05]

26. What Bill Bennett said last night

he doesn't talk nothing like Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson, thats why he is so popular.

[xultar]

47. RACIST AS FUCK. He needs an ass whoopin on a gigantic scale...

That'd just about cover his fat ass too.

[Virginia Dare]

184. Bill Bennett is the prototype of a racist...

I could easily see him in a white sheet.

[NoBorders]

220. Cafferty pretty much said the same thing

It made me cringe in a way. Do they really not see the racism in those words?

[salin]

222. They don't appear to - but like some on this thread, they either

choose to be obtusely rude (I want to say - even if it denegrates others - what I want to say), or they are so unaware that they don't recognize their own latent racism. Given the big blowup per Biden using these words, it is hard to believe their is still an unawareness that the particular word is "coded" - so the choice to use it - is the choice to be viewed as racist.

[mmonk]

27. What if an elderly African American lady says

"Obama, that boy is good." ? Sorry, not trying to mess up what you are saying. Yes, I'm aware of subtle racism.

[BuyingThyme]

31. If she's facing east, she's probably racist.

[xultar]

39. Not racist. She's tryin to say he's a good boy. To blue hairs any males under 60 are boys

:rofl:

[shayes51]

204. As a woman over 50, I do not like the term "blue hairs!"

And I don't think I will like it when I'm 90.

[Redstone]

32. One question: Are you black / African American / whatever description you prefer?

If you are, I accept your opinion as meaningful.

If not, I do not.

I'm half white, and half American Indian, so I CANNOT presume to offer a valid opinion on what black Americans should or should not consider to be racist.

I believe that NOBODY who is not a member of any ethnic minority group can possibly understand what it's like to live as a member of that group; therefore I defer completely to the opinions of members of that group.

(Hell, I can't even presume to say what is or isn't racism regarding American Indians, given that I've never suffered one bit for being half Indian.)

Anyway, I thought I'd ask.

Redstone

[xultar]

37. I'm a black woman yes. A home girl. But not an around the way girl.

[Redstone]

51. Then I agree with your post. Hey, excuse my UTTER ignorance of pop-culture terminology, but

what's an "around the way girl?"

I'm not giving you a hard time here; I REALLY don't know what it means.

Redstone

[xultar]

75. A "fast "girl from the neighborhood. A young girl who knows her impact on men

and uses it way to well. She's often very attractive and dresses way to seductive for her age.

[Redstone]

87. Gotcha. Thanks for the information. Christ, I need to get out more, don't I?

PS: I agreed with your contentions in your OP, even before I knew the viewpoint from which you stated them...but it seems that you know why I had to ask.

Redstone

[struggle4progress]

58. But are you as cute as your avatar?

[xultar]

76. Hayle no. God I wish though. I use it because I am black. I just assumed that

people would take it at face value. But in this day and age with people lyin so much I guess you can't.

Yeah. I'm a sistah.

[struggle4progress]

121. That avatar ain't lyin: your written voice is often as cute as the picture

I've used Harriett Tubman as my avatar sometimes because I admire her -- but my ancestors left Africa tens of thousands of years before hers did; and I got one fewer X chromosome and one more Y than she did

[BuyingThyme]

46. Wow, you're the first self-described racist I've ever seen on DU.

[Redstone]

56. By not presuming to speak for others, I'm racist? OK, then, that's your opinion

and you're welcome to it (bizarre though it may be).

Redstone

[BuyingThyme]

57. You decide whether or not to respect an opinion based on skin color.

Doesn't get any more racist than that.

[Redstone]

60. No, I don't presume to know what others feel like, since I'm not them. Should I repeat that

a few more times for you?

Redstone

[BuyingThyme]

62. I'll do the repeating:

"Are you black / African American / whatever description you prefer? If you are, I accept your opinion as meaningful.

If not, I do not."

[Redstone]

68. Because I defer to the opinions of people who know what they're talking about.

If that's a problem for you, well, it's a problem for you.

Redstone

[BuyingThyme]

71. Yep, big problem for me, judging people by skin color.

Big, big problem.

[Redstone]

77. I don't judge, I respect their opinions based on their experiences, and do not presume to speak

for them.

You're getting boting with this. So I'm racist, in your opinion.

Believe that, and call me that as much as you wish to, if it make you feel better. Not a problem for me.

(PS: Did you know that my wife is half African? Some racist, eh?)

Redstone

[BuyingThyme]

82. I haven't offered an opinion about you. You said you judge people's opinions by skin color.

Not my fault.

[rockymountaindem]

201. That's totally rediculous

Redstone said nothing of the sort. You may not agree with his opinion, but he didn't say anything racist. All he said was he won't judge other people unless he's in their shoes and that he doesn't think anybody else should either.

[salin]

93. pssst, friend,

don't bother the same statement will go on and on and still make no sense.

[Redstone]

102. Yeah, I need to invoke Redstone's Rule #3: Never waste your time arguing with someone

who has the same answer for every question.

Redstone

[BuyingThyme]

125. You have a question?

What is your question, Redstone?

[Karenina]

141. When you're in a hole...

STOP DIGGING. :rofl:

[BuyingThyme]

159. What hole is that?

Do you really think it's difficult to defend the position that one's opinion should not be judged based on skin color?

If so, you are a racist and have no business here. Are you a racist?

[Karenina]

189. I'm a multi-culturist

and you're a one-trick pony. Skin colour is a BIG ISSUE. WORLDWIDE. If you're not aware of that and the pressing need to address its ramifications, I'd suggest you might try getting out more often. Must get a bit moldy in that bubble.

[BuyingThyme]

350. I am addressing it. You're trying not to.

That's why you're calling it a "one-trick pony," isn't it. I mean, if you actually wanted to address it, would you not address it instead of indicating that I'm addressing it too much?

By the way, if you think it's appropriate to judge opinions according to skin color, please don't go around calling yourself a "multi-culturist." The proper term is racist.

[Karenina]

368. Whatever.

:eyes::eyes::eyes:

[BuyingThyme]

120. What do you need explained to you?

You don't understand how judging opinions by skin color is racist?

[Evoman]

78. Bullshit...that is not what he was saying.

He is simply saying that black people know better than white people what black people have to go through, and are in a better position to tell us what THEY find insulting. And I agree with him.

[BuyingThyme]

84. He said:

"Are you black / African American / whatever description you prefer? If you are, I accept your opinion as meaningful.

If not, I do not."

[smoogatz]

97. Is not a black person's opinion on what does/doesn't constitute

anti-black racism more likely to be valid than, say, a non-black person's? As a middle-class white guy, I don't really have full access to the same information set, so I've learned over time to shut the fuck up and listen and try to learn something when people who've lived it broach the subject. Of course, we all react to these things in our own unique ways. Yours is apparently to shoot your mouth off and start calling people racist, even when they're trying in apparent good faith to think things through. Whatever floats your little boat, I guess.

[BuyingThyme]

106. I know what racism is. This is a clear-as-day case of racism.

And by the way, if you say something that you don't intend to be denigrating, but a person takes it as such, that does not make you a racist.

You have everything completely backwards.

[smoogatz]

124. So, okay. Let's say you're an upper-middle-class white kid from a wealthy

suburb, and you have your own opinions about what constitutes anti-black racism and what doesn't. But let's also say there's fifty black people in the room, and their opinions on the subject are all diametrically opposed to yours. Who do I take seriously? You, who have no real experiential basis for your opinions and are probably talking out of your ass? Or the consensus opinion of the fifty other people in the room who have actually lived their entire lives as, you know, actual black people?

And you're wrong: just because you don't get it doesn't mean you're not racist. Your intentions may be good, and maybe you're not burning crosses on anybody's lawn, but if you don't care enough to do the work of listening and understanding then you're still a passive racist. Sorry if this revelation comes as bad news to you.

[Redstone]

129. Holy Moley. What you said:

"...other people in the room who have actually lived their entire lives as, you know, actual black people?"

Thanks for making the point I was trying to get across, and saying it much better than I did.

Redstone

[smoogatz]

147. You were doing fine.

I just jumped in because BT seemed not to be getting it.

[annabanana]

175. And he or she never will, (doesn't want to, sadly). . . n/t

[Redstone]

179. I always appreciate reading a well-crafted turn of phrase...you wrote well.

Redstone

[BuyingThyme]

130. You just equivocated consensus and skin color.

You're going to have to do better.

[smoogatz]

142. Do you mean "conflated?"

Because "equivocated" doesn't make sense in the context into which you've dropped it.

Anyway, there is consensus: Xultar's not saying anythin new here, though it's certainly worth repeating. And Redstone's point is perfectly reasonable. It's a matter of respect: I'm white, so I don't get to tell black people (or Asian people or Native Americans or Latinos) how to define themselves.

[BuyingThyme]

I mean equivocated. You have committed a fallacy

by pretending that a determination based on skin color is the same as a determination based on consensus.

And all you're really saying is that every white person in this thread should be ignored.

[smoogatz]

169. There IS consensus.

And in this case, that consensus is based in experience, which is based in race (the experience of being black, as opposed to the experience of being a rich white kid, say, as in my example). This is obvious, so I'm having trouble understanding why it doesn't make sense to you.

[BuyingThyme]

345. There's consensus that people's opinions

should be judged according to skin color?

Where do you live?

[Beetwasher]

235. Uhh, You Don't Know How To Use "Equivocate" Properly

:rofl:

You did mean to use either "conflate" or "equate", but "equivocated" is very obviously WRONG.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equivocate

Wow. I've seen some flameouts before, but you're really going in style!

You GO boy!

:rofl:

Carry on!

[BuyingThyme]

344. Thank you for this opportunity to make you look so silly.

You see, equivocation is a term used to identify a kind of fallacy.

Now, just because you took the time to look the word up in the dictionary does not mean you have any idea how to use it in this context.

If you would like to attempt to learn what an equivocation is in this context, I offer this link:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html

Now, remember, reading this page will not make you an expert. You're going to have to work at it a little.

By the way, what I'm doing here is educating you. Look it up.

:rofl:

[Beetwasher]

351. Umm, No, You Still Don't Know How To Use It Properly

Regardless of your bullshit.

[BuyingThyme]

352. Oh, really?

Please explain.

:popcorn:

[Beetwasher]

353. Read Your Own Link

And look at the thread and the arguments therein. The only one equivocating is you.

Also, your idiotic link is no more valid than mine (actually, it's less valid, because who the fuck's webpage is that? Yours?). That's the only place I've ever seen "equivocation" defined in such a manner. Why is that stupid webpage more valid than a dictionary? In any event, even by the standards of THAT site, you're STILL wrong.

[BuyingThyme]

354. How would you identify this fallacy?

This fallacy where we pretend that consensus and skin color are the same criterion. Is the statement just so incredibly stupid and ridiculous that the only justice that can be done is to call it false?

[Beetwasher]

356. I Identify It As A "Fallacy" That YOU Created Out Of Thin Air To Support YOUR Particular Bullshit

And I hereby designate THAT "fallacy" as the "BuyingThyme" Fallacy. Webpage to follow. :rofl:

[BuyingThyme]

357. Oh, I get it. You don't know what a fallacy is either.

Okay, look, go back to your dictionary. Look up falsehood, then look up fallacy. Then go back to that stuff I taught you about equivocation, keeping in mind that equivocation is a type of fallacy. In this case the poster equivocated the concept of opinion with the concept of consensus opinion.

Now, I understand this is a lot for you all at once, but please give it a go. Try not to post any more silly nonsense until you understand the basics.

[Beetwasher]

359. LOL! Why Don't You Put Up Another Webpage About It

:rofl:

I get it, just define anything any way you feel like it in the manner that you think shows you're right and the world is wrong, then find any webpage that you think makes it look official! Dictionaries be damned!

I get it now! :rofl:

Here's a BETTER explanation of the "fallacy" of equivocation, and it is TOTALLY irrelevant to this thread, except perhaps to YOUR arguments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

[BuyingThyme]

362. I don't think there are very many people who need my help

as much as you do.

All you've got left is ROFLs and your need to pretend that all the world is as ignorant as you. This happens to you a lot, doesn't it?

[Beetwasher]

363. Oh Man, You Are Killin' Me!

You against the world! Yes, yes, everyone on this thread just doesn't get it. Only YOU get it! :rofl:

I'm sure you are quite convinced everyone else is just stupid.

[BuyingThyme]

364. Okay, just try to make sense for a moment.

What is it that everyone in this thread doesn't get, and why do you assume they're all as ignorant as you? Do you really think there are a lot of people here that don't know the difference between a falsehood and a fallacy?

I'm betting it's just you.

[Beetwasher]

374. Only You

Just you. You against the world. :rofl:

[Karenina]

154. When you're in a hole...

FIRST stop digging. THEN, remember the words of the living Saint, Little Richard and

Jes' SHUT UP.

READING is FUNDAMENTAL!!! :rofl:

[BuyingThyme]

157. Afraid to say something that's not as stupid as hell?

[Chulanowa]

174. So, let me ask you

Do you believe you have an equally valid take on racism against blacks, as black people themselves do?

Do you also believe your opinion on Hinduism, whatever it may be, is as equally valid as that of an actual Hindu?

[BuyingThyme]

346. This has nothing to with with "equally valid" takes on racism,

whatever those are. This is about dismissing people's opinions based solely on race.

Why are you so compelled to change the subject?

[Evoman]

98. Uh...yeah, so?

White people explaining to other what is not, racist when talking about black people IS not meaningful because they just plain don't experience what they're talking about.

That's not racist. Redstone is not racist. And your being lame.

[BuyingThyme]

115. So racism

has nothing to do with they way people perceive and treat other people? It's all about... What is it about?

[Redstone]

96. Hey, if someone objects to me deferring to someone's preferred description of their ethnicity,

and labels that as racism (I think of it as respect), then that's what they're going to think.

But I appreciate your post anyway.

Redstone

[Evoman]

107. No problem, dude.

But I find it necessary to point out when people are full of shit. There is too much REAL racism on this board (your average illegal alien thread is fucking chock full of it) for us to spend time on this type of bullshit.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

188. That's not what he's doing at all.

He's taking skin color/ethnicity into account within the context of what constitutes racism against people of that particular skin color and/or ethnicity.

If he deferred to someone on ALL matters simply due to their skin color/ethnicity, that would be much different. And of course, he's not doing that at all.

[BuyingThyme]

348. Nope.

A person's skin color does not give them license to determine what is racist and what is not.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

361. You can't possibly be this stupid.

If, for example, a white person claims something is not racist against black people when a black person claims otherwise, the black person is filtering their argument through their own experience -- that they are black.

Therefore, the black person is using the part of their identity that grants them firsthand exposure to racism, something a non-black person would not be able to identify with -- because they're *not black.*

Get it now?

[Sugar Smack]

109. Good lord, how is anything he had to say racist?

His post was sincerely asking an honest question: If her experience had anything to do with the color of her skin he would take it seriously. If it didn't and it was based on hearsay, he would not.

[Redstone]

126. Hey, I'm SO RACIST that I married a woman who's half African! That oughta prove

that poster's point, yes?

Hey, my business plans are proceeding apace. I'll keep you posted on any progress, OK? I was serious about the stuff we discussed.

Redstone

[Sugar Smack]

134. YES!!

:D

[BuyingThyme]

349. Some of your best friends are black.

You're in the clear.

[BuyingThyme]

139. Nope, not based on hearsay. Based on skin color.

[Sugar Smack]

164. Look, if xultar's skin color was any shade of brown or black and she got

flak for it, which is what she gets, Redstone says yes, she would have more credibility than if she was another race, read Native-American, which is what Redstone is by half. He may get a different kind of flak than she does. Although I understand he doesn't.

[Schema Thing]

53. Some of my best friends are Muslim

:P

[xultar]

67. I've dated the UN, Black, White, Jewish, Muslim, Asian...I'm the UN of Love!

[Evoman]

88. Hell, me too.

Lol...racists don't even know what they are missing out on. It's a big world out there.

[xultar]

94. Ohhh you know it! Poor fuckers are missin some good lovin. I forgot my Latino fling too!

[Evoman]

111. As a latino, let me just salute you on including us is your flings.

:patriot:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

70. I Suspect You Need a Lesson on What Constitutes Racism

You write: 'Just using the word boy in a sentence with the name Obama doesn't make it racist. If you believe that then you are being very simplistic.'

Give me a break.

Someone is racist because they call someone 'articulate' or 'pleasant'? What's racist is to presume to think that a man should never be called 'articulate' or 'pleasant' merely because of his race.

But heh.........you keep calling Obama your 'boy'. Sigh.

[xultar]

81. He is my Boy. Hillary is my Girl. Edwards is my Boy. I guess since I'm black I can say it

and you feel you can't cuz you're not. To bad.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

108. Talk about Racism

You know my race from my post?

Good grief.

SHOWS WHAT YOU KNOW.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

173. Is she wrong?

Because I'd suspect most people understand the significance of racist patronizing.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

207. Of Course She is Wrong - That Was My Point

Didn't you read what I wrote?

Anyone who characterizes someone as being racist for calling another person 'articulate' or 'pleasant' is not only WRONG but SILLY.

[Karenina]

213. You are ALSO being insensitive and dismissive.

See my responses to Mojorabbit.

If you had a friend who had been to war and was sensitive to loud noises, would you set off a firecracker then tell them they were being "silly" for reacting because it was JUST a firecracker?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

322. Talk about Insensitive and Dismissive

Anyone who characterizes someone as being racist for calling another person 'articulate' or 'pleasant' is not only WRONG but SILLY.

Are you telling me I cannot compliment a black man for being articulate but I can compliment a hispanic man or an asian man?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

114. Too Bad You Can't Call Someone Black.........

'articulate' or 'pleasant'.

Talk about racist.

[Karenina]

215. Talk about Besserwisserei.

:eyes:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

223. Talk about Silly

:sarcasm: Not to worry...... you could never call me racist because you are inarticulate.

Gosh....can you tell my race by my attitude too?


:crazy:

[Karenina]

228. Vielleicht dörflich? Es ist mir würstchen.

:rofl::shrug::rofl:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

230. Of Course It Is

:freak: :freak: :freak:

[Karenina]

232. Tschüß!!!

:hi:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

242. Indeed

:+ :

[fightthegoodfightnow]

137. I Don't Think You Have to be Black or White to Know

Obama is a grown man.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

297. How Are You Doing on Figuring Out My Race From a Message Board?

Is that like figuring out my race from my voice?

But heh.........keep thinking you ideas of racism trump mine. Personally, I think you are clueless.

[fuzzy otter pop]

73. out standing post....

[xultar]

91. It isn't. It is simplistic. But it opens the discussion. I'll get into intent later.

[Redstone]

113. Hey, do me a favor: When you "get into intent," could you do it in a new thread?

I'd like to see what you have to say, but this thread is already getting pretty long, and it may be easier for people to follow your reasoning if you do it in a new followup thread.

Redstone

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

92. In my experience, it's not even the words as much as how they are expressed.

In my experience.

I say: "Obama is intelligent, an inspirational communicator and presents the kind of broad experience and effective leader must possess to help this country grow."

The fact he is not caucasian is important to me, too! It's time to add variety to our presidential history.

[xultar]

95. I agree. This is the 101 class. We'll get into intent in 201 and expression in 301.

[democrat2thecore]

and EVERYONE should take those classes

Everyone should definitely take those classes based on how I hear some blacks talk about whites, some whites about blacks, some whites and blacks about asians, asians about blacks and whites, on and on it goes. Nobody has an exclusive lock on racist talk, intent and expression.

[xultar]

149. A had a black man unsolicited come up to me to bash Jews. I told him I was married to a Jew.

That was a lie. But I felt like making his penis get all dried up.

Racism is all over the fuckin place. No one is pure. I hope the Obama candidacy lights up the darkness on the sickness of racism in the country.

[salin]

158. a friend owned a sportswear store...

guy came in wanting to buy jerseys for his softball team - with the name of a business on the jerseys. When my friend told the price (she supported youth sports, so she was selling and doing the print on the jersey's at price) - the guy (who had just given her his business card) says "are you trying to Jew me?" to which she paused and said... "excuse me?" so like the idiots are prone to do - he repeated himself "just trying to make sure you aren't trying to Jew me."

She called the owner of the business (left on the business card) to tell him that he might want to have a talk with his salesman - as he just might turn away some customers with his inappropriate bigoted commentary.

[democrat2thecore]

163. LOL!

A had a black man unsolicited come up to me to bash Jews. I told him I was married to a Jew.
That was a lie. But I felt like making his penis get all dried up.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you look half as good as you write, I imagine you did the opposite!

Have a great weekend!

[Virginia Dare]

186. I was getting all nostalgic today...

back when I was in college in the DARK AGES :P me, little white girl from suburbia in the south did some volunteer work for the Rev. Jackson. I was all starry eyed and idealist back then. This time it's the real deal, how awesome is that?

[Blue_Roses]

255. Hahahahaha...

"But I felt like making his penis get all dried up."

:rofl:

You remind me of someone pretty special who I miss like crazy...:)

[kalibex]

292. That generalized human weakness...

...the need to feel superior to someone else.

Spawned racism, tribalism, sexism, the class system...all those 'isms'...

-B

[fightthegoodfightnow]

323. Starting with a Mirror on You

Smile.

[Karenina]

122. X, You're SUCH a fricken PIP!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[readmoreoften]

103. Error: you've already recommended (you know the drill) /nt

[shadowknows69]

110. I think I got it

Thanks Xultie!!!B-)

[mudesi]

119. Pardon my ignorance

But why are any of those racist?

I didn't know "boy" was tantamount to the n-word. And "articulate" is a synonym for "great speaker", so why is one racist but the other not?

[karlrschneider]

136. Some words just gyrate the whine hormones of a few losers...

:shrug:

[salin]

146. or recall the times where the phrase was used to demean

adult male blacks to remind them of "their place" in the Jim Crow era. That has nothing to do with whine. It has everything to do with how the word has been used to demean and degrade over a long period of time.

So go ahead, choose to address black men as "boy", and when you are perceived to be racist - its your issue (by choosing to invoke the insult) not the people reading the insult for what it is.

Now in the case of how it was used earlier today - that is back to context, it was poor word choice (very poor), but not used in the direct addres insult.

Oh- in advance to the one-line snark swipe post that is likely to be a response to this post :eyes: :D

[democrat2thecore]

138. Because some have moved on and obviously - some have not

I mean, seriously, most kids today would not think there was anything wrong with calling a black kid a boy - or a black man a boy, anymore than it would be "wrong" to call a white man a boy. It's rooted in history that some don't even know about. And, that's a good thing! It's time to move on and not perpetuate the labels of the past on new generations that wouldn't know one way or the other. God people, let's move on! BOY in 2008 doesn't need to have the same meaning as BOY did in 1964. I remember the Flintstones opening song, "We'll have a GAY OLD TIME!" Meanings of words change. What do we have to gain by teaching a new generation that we must all walk fine lines so as not to "offend" because that word was used in a derogatory way FORTY YEARS ago? Nothing.

When MLK said, "I dream of a day..." Let's make TODAY that day and stop passing along things just to keep the hate stirred! We CAN be one America - but only if we UNITE and not DIVIDE. That's why I am for BARACK OBAMA for PRESIDENT!

edit for spelling

[salin]

123. great discussion opener

:yourock:

[karlrschneider]

128. Sorry, I think you're nutz.

:eyes:

[xultar]

150. I am. Good observation.

[karlrschneider]

152. I was kidding, but you really are pleasant and articulate.

:P

[xultar]

176. BUHWAWAWA!

[fightthegoodfightnow]

209. What---------S/He's Not a Racist?

What---------S/He's Not a Racist?

[xultar]

212. Nah just funny as fuck.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

224. More evidence you are very pleasant and articulate.

More evidence you are very 'pleasant' and 'articulate.'

LOL.

[Stinky The Clown]

131. Thanks for a note of sanity. Speaking of notes ......

.... I also note the incredible lack of understanding and the clearly willful ignorance of a few who chose to post in your thread.

[bobbolink]

155. Voting for someone or not voting for some one because of race is racist.

And that's about all I have to say on the subject.

Same with woman and sexist.

[Redstone]

187. Hey, I'd vote for Obama PARTIALLY because of his race. And I'd vote for Hillary PARTIALLY

because she's a woman.

Because I believe we need someone besides a white man as President, and about damn time.

So if that makes me racist and / or sexist, so be it.

Redstone

[bobbolink]

290. So be it, then.

That's what we've come to -- proud of being racist and sexist.

How..... "progressive"

[annabanana]

178. GREAT thread, X....

You are one of my all-time fave posters!

[xultar]

182. Thanks. Just ytryin to keep it lively.

[Sugar Smack]

185. And look what you've done, young lady!

:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

[B2G]

183. my thoughts

A. I think she used the word "boy" in an attempt to reinforce the whole young & inexperienced meme.

2. It pisses me off to no end that I'm being told that I can't hold an opinion on whether or not a statement is racist or not based on the color of my skin. The irony is astounding.

[OzarkDem]

205. Its a GOP dream come true

getting Dems to divide against each other over a candidate who plays the race card.

[xultar]

214. Obama isn't playing the race card. His supporters are playing it for him.

[Karenina]

218. From one who believes dicussing race is "divisive."

:rofl:

[OzarkDem]

266. Welcome to DU

[Karenina]

338. Exercising what you consider your white privilege, I see...

:eyes:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

227. Oh........Knock it Off

This isn't the Nazi Party where we all have to think alike...........thank God. Heck, this isn't the Bush Party either.

We are permitted to have different opinions in the Democratic Party.

[OzarkDem]

265. Exactly,

so some of us are entitled to support candidates besides Obama without being called racist.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

271. Agree

Agree

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

211. The Last Thing Saying "Obama Is Articulate And Pleasant" Is, Is Racist

That's a pretty knee jerk reaction. The statement was perfectly fine.

[salin]

219. have you read the thread?

The reasons and context as to why that has demeaning connotations is well articulated many places on this thread. I will take this more seriously if you respond to points raised specifically in those posts.

Aside from that, I hope that you and your family is doing well - my prayres have been with you.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

226. Demeaning Connotations?

Give me a break.

Ok......you are pleasant and articulate.

[salin]

241. well... gee, thanks

I find (not) so much sincerity in your post.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

244. Does that Make Me a Racist Too?

......... I didn't mean to call you pleasant and articulate if it offends you.

:rofl:

[salin]

249. No offense taken,

Just a question of the sincerity of what was posted.

I didn't read any racism into it - but since you raised the question... should I have?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

272. Now It's Time for Me to Question Your Sincerity

I don't take offense at your question because to do so would imply I took it seriously.

I do not.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

240. Sorry, But There's No Way We're Agreeing Here.

The way he said it, in the context he said it and with the intent he said it, it was completely harmless. I think it's wrong to insinuate racism towards those who were not in fact being racist.

Obama is articulate and pleasant. Saying so is perfectly fine. This is once again a knee jerk reaction to the fact that some white dude said the word articulate. Now granted; I can understand where that knee jerk reaction comes from, but in this context it just isn't accurate.

[salin]

248. Its always harmless.

Even after the lesson was very clear earlier this year (per Biden).

IMO - free speech works this way: folks are free to say whatever they please - and receptors (readers/listeners) are free to interpret those words any way they please. If folks stumble into an area that offends a whole group of folks (esp if there has already been a public example ot the pitfall), then they have to deal with the equally free response to that. Unless Free Speech means only that one is free to say whatever, but that those who hear/read it are not allowed to have an opinion about what was said which would be a seemingly worse thing -ala an attempt at "mind control".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

256. Of Course People Are Free To Voice Whatever Opinion They'd Like.

But opinions can still be quite wrong, even when voiced freely.

Calling this racist in the context of this actual event is just nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to simply hearing the word 'articulate'. In reality, the word is used for political candidates ALL THE TIME, for all genders, races and religions. Some, however, want to just ignore the fact that it is one of the most common words used towards political candidates, and instead just try to hammer home some silly 'racism' meme. But it's quite silly.

The reason why I feel the need to defend against it, is because silly knee jerk opinions are one thing. Silly knee jerk opinions that serve to rally others into assassinating the character of an innocent person by characterizing them as racist; when they're not, is another.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

Racism is to Deny Calling an Articulate Person......... Articulate

operationmindcrime writes: 'Calling this racist in the context of this actual event is just nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to simply hearing the word 'articulate'. In reality, the word is used for political candidates ALL THE TIME, for all genders, races and religions. Some, however, want to just ignore the fact that it is one of the most common words used towards political candidates, and instead just try to hammer home some silly 'racism' meme. But it's quite silly."

I'd go one step further: it's RACIST to deny calling a black person who is articulate ............ articulate.

[salin]

275. now is that a twirling top of reasoning.

it is now racist to NOT use a *code* word from the Jim Crow era (that is still used) to describe a black person? What, we are now required, lest we be seen as racist, to use old racists words?

:crazy:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

278. You Speak in Tongues Using Outdated Code Words

I live in today.

Only an inarticulate person would not call an articulate person ......... articulate.

Even if what you say is true, stop spinning your top and you might learn the way to give words new meaning (new in your case) is to use them in 'new' ways.

I'm a HOMO. Big f*cking deal. I love being a HOMO.

Get it?

PS - Do you think Obama took offense at being called 'articulate'. LOL. Give me a break.

[salin]

280. a couple of things...

to your ps, I have no idea whether he took offense... but I would be pretty confident that he made note of the use of the word in a way that he wouldn't had the word eloquent been used.

next - as I have said before folks are free to use whatever words they please. But if those words include words that *still are used* by some as code words, then one should not feign surprise when inferences are made into what was being implied and simultaneously about the person making the statements. Thus I find the whole conversation has gone topsy turvy absurd when it wraps up to the point made that it would be racist *not* to use words that can carry racist connotations.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

289. Topsy Turvey Indeed

...........when someone thinks the word 'articulate' is racist.

One should not feign surprise when someone means what they say rather than the logic of a twisted knot that exists in your head.

What's absurd is to think the word 'articulate' means anything other than what it means.

I'll leave you to find in the dictionary that it has a hidden racist meaning.

And as I said: 'Even if what you say is true, stop spinning your top and you might learn the way to give words new meaning (new in your case) is to use them in 'new' ways.'

But don't feign surprise if no one gets your point.....because they already think he is well spoken. LOL.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

225. AGREE COMPLETELY

Clearly she has issues if she thinks calling another person articulate and pleasant implies they are racist.

I could not agree with you more.

[bobthedrummer]

221. I'm acquainted with a lot of history about racism and race politics as you are, xultar.

First of all there is a rainbow family of racism.

Secondly, this criminal administration is full of people that have policies of ethnic cleansing.

Anyone that would like to go more in depth on the history of race politics and eugenics is invited to join in the thread linked below

"January 1, 1934: 'The Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring' took effect" (started 1-1-2008)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2570336

[TheDoorbellRang]

233. This has been a fascinating thread

And I have a question for you, xultar. Do you have a problem with the designation "African-American"? I'm a middle-aged "white" woman, and I agree with Redstone's opinion upthread that I'm not empirically qualified to judge what is or is not offensive as a racial slur, but I can't help but see the term "African American" in the same light that I would see the term "lady doctor" -- it just really rubs me the wrong way, especially when I'm filling out those surveys with the designations: white, African American, Hispanic, Asian, other. Seems like a hodgepodge of silliness. I used to just say I was European American, but now I just put in my haplogroup (from the National Genographic project). Actually had someone doing a survey hang up on me once because I wouldn't play nice and just say "white."

[Redstone]

238. That's a good question, and I'd be interested in her answer. I, for example, DETEST the

term "Native American," as do quite a few other American Indians.

I'd be interested in hearing if "African American" is still the term most preferred by Americans of African descent. And with a hyphen, or not? Seems like the hyphen is not much used these days.

Redstone

[TheDoorbellRang]

251. It's a not so subtle way of keeping people separate, I think

I got interested in the genographic project about a year ago, and found it absolutely fascinating to follow the migratory path of humanity out of Africa. We really ARE all related. I would venture to guess that some of the conservative knee jerk reaction against evolution is accepting that little fact.

[treestar]

239. What purpose does this serve?

I will never see the advantage to African Americans of this kind of thinking.

Many whites are too young to know the "boy" problem. It's like you are creating an elite of whites who "know." Which words and phrasing to use.

Obama has to win the race to be President of the United States, and that includes all of the white people, and they may be a majority or at least a plurality, please do not disadvantage him with this kind of negativity. If the average idiot (that is, the average voter) will vote for him, do no turn them off by calling them names like "racist." That will do no good.

When we have an African American President, it will mean we have overcome racism. That is GOOD news, not bad news. That is reason to be happy, not reason to pick at phrasing and word usage. The real racist will say the politically correct term with a sneer, being technical about who uses what term is simply useless.

[Blue_Roses]

260. ah, hell...

"When we have an African American President, it will mean we have overcome racism."

Tell me you're kidding right? Do you know what a hornet's nest this is stirring RIGHT NOW, THIS MINUTE, just because a black man--no, a Bi-Racial man--has had the audacity to HOPE? Grant it, it's not happening on the full-scale north of the Mason-Dixon line, but rest assure, there's a idiot somewhere saying, "that n- ain't gonna be my President...that 'boy' needs to be put in his place..." and with that short line of bullshit, he's rounding up his other ignorant friends.

It's like full-blown racism lies dormant, just simmering under the surface, until someone like Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Charlie Mack, and many more step up and say, "no more,"

It's FARRRRRRR from being over. Sad as it is, there's gonna be more shit to hit the fan.

[Redstone]

263. I believe that you are absolutely right, though I wish you weren't.

But what do I know? I was dumb enough to believe that this country had evolved to the point that we'd never start a war just because we felt like doing it.

Redstone

[Fading Captain]

245. What the heck is this?

"That boy is good." is OK?
And "That Obama boy won" is not?

Is that your personal preference? Or do you have some logic behind this?

And why the fuck did I just waste five minutes even considering this load of crap?

[ima_sinnic]

247. Yepsen: "Edwards Emerged As the Evening's Most Effective and Articulate Challenger to Clinton."

(October 30, 2007)

Time: Edwards demonstrated "articulate passion." (October 31, 2007)

Blogger Steve Benen, the Carpetbagger Report: "I like Edwards, especially because he’s articulate and has a vision." (December 28, 2006)

Candy Crowley, CNN: "(Edwards) is... a very articulate man. ... He was front and center during the Monica Lewinsky impeachment trial of Bill Clinton and was considered very articulate during that time." (January 1, 2003)

Blogger Steve Benen, the Carpetbagger Report: "... Edwards is a very bright, articulate, and aggressive lawmaker." (August 26, 2003)

David Greenberg, Legal Affairs: "Fresh-faced and articulate, (Edwards) possessed a warmth that his rivals lacked." (January 2004)

Slate partial headline: "... John Edwards is bright and articulate and really, really youthful. ..." (February 6, 2004)

Charles Paul Freund, Reason Online: "(A)lmost all the coverage was founded on the theme of Edwards as an articulate, appealing, and energetic political force." (July 7, 2004)

Rob McManamy, the University of Chicago Chronicle: "The charismatic, passionate and articulate former U.S. Sen. John Edwards is speaking out about the need to lift more Americans out of poverty and into the middle class." (March 2, 2006)

David Hampton, clarionledger.com: "Edwards is young, smart, articulate and a good Southerner with moderate tendencies and a heart for traditional Democratic issues." (December 28, 2006)

wikiDemocrats.com: "He's charming, he's smart and he's articulate." (as of January 29, 2007)

Somehow I don't hear Edwards whining about being complimented for being "articulate." Let's not promote the bullshit line that "white people are never called articulate."

And I find your "comparison" of "articulate" versus "a great speaker" to be a joke. Either Obama is articulate (i.e., a great speaker) or he isn't. I seriously resent having perfectly good words hijacked and forced out of use because some who may not be so articulate feel slighted by their use and want to play the race card over them.
Since Obama is not my candidate, don't worry, I will not be calling him anything complimentary. Should he become the nominee I will make it a point not to campaign for him because I wouldn't want to run the risk of offending anyone by saying anything too complimentary.

[Blue_Roses]

261. Great thread.

Some will choose to try and understand like Redstone and some just won't.

[Lithos]

262. Been a long day for me

And I've obviously missed something. Can someone explain to me what this is in reference to?

L-

[Karenina]

273. Hmmm...

Amy Goodman? Clinton staffer explaining Obamas success, "neighboring boy..." ref to Iowa and Illinois proximity...
Hope that helps a little. :hi:

[EFerrari]

274. I believe there was a thread around here where a Clinton aide

used the word "boy" in a sentence that referred to Senator Obama.

[salin]

276. and one on the "articulate and pleasant" comment by Cafferty describing

Obama.

[EFerrari]

277. That's right. I forgot about that one. Thanks, salin. n/t

[Lithos]

281. Thanks!

Gives me a place to start reading.

[txwhitedove]

264. K&R. Great thread and debate. You’re a sharp, funny lady...

As a woman over 50, nearing retirement, I don’t care to be lumped with the “blue hairs”. That could be considered ageist. I prefer to think you were just being descriptive. I didn't hear Jack Cafferty’s remarks about Obama, and can’t judge the context or intent. But could it just possibly have been positive? We have all been missing, hoping for, begging for a new leader, a President who is intelligent, articulate and pleasant, all things that Bush is not. Unfortunately, since racism is still alive and well in this world, in order for many voters to even view a black man as a viable Presidential candidate, perhaps they have to be told that, wow, he is articulate and pleasant. Gag me. That’s me, I try to see the positive.

Note, recently had to instruct son on what is a racist. I grew up with a racist. Real racists don't just talk bad, they DO bad.

[rosesaylavee]

279. xultar, this is one of my favorite DU posts in a long long time...

Love 101. DU needs this discussion. This has been very informative and fortunately for me and those I love, this is not news. I say this as a white middle aged woman. As witnessed on this thread, this information is hard for those of white backgrounds to fathom - but we all need to recognize that racism is a very dangerous, destructive force and as much as many whites all want to think it ended with the Civil Rights legislation in the 60s - it ain't over by a long shot. It's alive and well and we are in for a rollercoaster ride the next coming months with Obama in the spotlight.

Looking forward to 201. And I have a suggestion for 301: what makes a black a black and a white a white or a latino a latino, etc. What percentage of their dna makes them so? :7 THAT will be an interesting discussion for sure.

Could you post these in your journal for easy access? Many thanks! :hi:

[xultar]

286. Well with your 301 suggestion...I have to say that DNA doesn't impact race as much

to me as you think. I have a friend. She's white. But I SWEAR SHE'S A SISTAH!!!!! She has a black woman's soul. I've dated asians who were white and whites that were black and blacks that were asian.

So 301 will be quite interesting with a discussion of expression because my friend who is a sistah can express things that some other white folks can't. I think it boils down to the fact that there will be a time...GOD WILLING where we will be able to say anything and everything to each other and we are so close that it won't matter. THAT IS WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR...a time when words won't hurt cuz race is a non issue.

I hope that shit is soon. I hope OBAMA ushers that shit in and others follow his lead.

[rosesaylavee]

288. It's about time.

People have to get over their fear and actually do some exploring of the issue on a personal level. It will require some personal work - not sure many are into that. I do have hope in the younger generation coming up as they don't seem to understand what the hubbub is about. And when its explained to them, they think its ridiculous as they have friends they can point to and say well, that stereotype doesn't apply to him/her. Time is slowly changing it... just wish it would move along faster.

One of the tools I have found and maybe would be helpful to others here is a workshop model presented by the National Coalition Building Institute. Their workshop explores all types of isms, things people fear and have been damaged by. The workshop helps people who have been damaged and those who damage and by the end, the level of understanding in the group has grown exponentially. Every workshop I have attended has been different focus but the end result is the same - understanding of the fear that separated us in the first place. More info here: http://www.ncbi.org The woman who founded it has done a lot of work in the Mideast and groups of hers helped during the LA riots.

As for 301, I think race is a cultural model only. We are one race with different ethnicities and cultures. The 'one drop of blood' reasoning to determine which group you belong to needs to be relegated to the trash heap of time. Hopefully the many many 'mixed' race marriages will bring a stop to that quaint idea too. But, like this thread, that discussion would be very interesting to have.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

298. You Can Start by Thinking Articulate Means One is Well Spoken

..........rather than a racial slur.

[EFerrari]

301. You might start by educating yourself on the tropes of racism.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

302. Educate Yourself

I know what articulate means.

It's criminal to claim that a black man cannot be called articulate without accusations of racism.

Physician: heal thyself.

I'll leave you to accuse others of being ignorant and racist.

I know exactly who is ignorant and racist.

[EFerrari]

303. Criminal? Oh, my.

Until you get that context is content, you still won't get it.

You are free to have the last word. For all the good it will do you.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

305. Here's My Context:

You are inarticulate.

Thanks for the last word.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

306. You Might Start by Re-Reading the Original Post

........where the 'context' was nothing more than a post like mine.

[LanternWaste]

370. I imagine it is quite...

I imagine it is quite comforting to have such an absolute knowledge of what (and who) is and is not racist. I admit to a bit of jealousy on my part that you posses this trove of information most mere mortals lack.

For our part, we find out through listening, and through trial and error, learning from our mistakes as we go along. I admire your stance of Absolute Knowledge -- when most people claim that, it's usually done out of hubris and ignorance.




Do doctors usually perform surgery on themselves....?

[EFerrari]

293. I agree. Great thread and beautiful handling.

:applause:

[Behind the Aegis]

295. Here's one for ya...

"He's good looking for a black man!"

Now, how the fuck do people not understand that is racist?!?!

It is sad that so many people, even more than a few here, believe racism and other forms of bigotry are limited to name-calling and physical attacks. The "-isms" are so much more. IMHO, it is the covert bigotry that is more dangerous then the idgit walking down the street calling people names. at least you know where you stand with that asshole.

[FlyingSquirrel]

296. Can I ask why you reposted this?

Was 120 recs not enough for ya last time? Sorry, but I just don't get why you would repost the exact same thing instead of just kicking your previous one. There's gonna be plenty of hate flowing from the right wing if Obama gets nominated as it is - do we need to keep sending it up here right now before it even gets started in earnest? How about instead we actually discuss the ISSUES and why we think someone SHOULD BE NOMINATED that has NOTHING to do with race or gender?

[uppityperson]

299. reposted?

[FlyingSquirrel]

326. Maybe I'm thinking of a different thread. n/t

[Turn CO Blue]

300. Grammar police:

Actually, only governments (local or federal) and governmental policies or laws can be "racist" or be guilty of "racism".

Individuals and groups can be "prejudiced" or "bigoted", but not "racist".

Sexism is a similar term.

[tomreedtoon]

312. The simple way to find if you're a racist.

Are you Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton?

If not, you're a racist. 'Nuff said.

Now send Jesse and Al your money, you racist scum, you.

(Written with disgruntlement at the fact that we allow these two guys TV and media time whenever a race-based story comes up in the news. Like there aren't any other black people in America who can talk about racism.)

[insanad]

330. Pastey white country hick with no sense of right or wrong

I'm worn out trying to figure out what's racist or not. Yesterday I was helping to clean up after a big Obama party at the HQ in one of the Vegas offices. I joked that you can tell it's 2008 because a plump white woman was cleaning up on behalf of a black man. I thought it was hilarious but I got some funny looks.

I like and support Obama because he's a freaking amazing person with the intellect, the grace, the insight and leadership that I admire. I couldn't care less if he was a gay green Martian with purple spots and liked Hip Hop with a twist of John Denver. I'm impressed with the PERSON. When will it be ok to be white and just like someone of any color or race just because they are a great person? When will it be ok for a person of color to like me even though I'm rarely politically correct or cool and I lack rythm but I make a mean casserole? I like people. Well, most people. I can't stand stupid or mean people.

[AngryAmish]

331. This is a very long, stupid thread

Everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves. I'm ashamed of myself for even writing this.

[EFerrari]

381. You might want to read it again for content.

[Canuckistanian]

332. OK, xultar. I think I've got your message boiled down to it's essence

From a quote you yourself made:

In a sentence, if you wouldn't use the word boy to refer to a white person don't use it to refer to a black person.

Easy.

Am I right? What do I win?

[undeterred]

334. Thank you for condescending to teach us poor stupid white folk.

Yeah, I'm tired of your attitude around here too.

[ima_sinnic]

341. why did Obama's own Senate campaign flyers boast that he was "articulate"?

From theGarance.com, Sept. 12, 2007:

Illinois Sen. Barack Obama’s 2004 Senate campaign fliers boasted that he was “the most . . . articulate contender in field,” according to handouts paid for by Obama for Illinois, which I found while cleaning out my files earlier this week. (I travelled with the then-state senator for a couple of days in the summer of 2004, during which I picked up the material.)
--snip--
One flier . . . quotes Chicago Sun-Times political columnist Steve Neal saying that “Sen. Barack Obama (D-Chicago) is forging a coalition that could make him the only black U.S. senator. Obama…the most intelligent and articulate contender in (the) field . . . would be a senator worthy of the Land of Lincoln.”

The second flier . . . truncates Neal’s quote to "Obama…the most intelligent and articulate contender in (the) field . . . would be a senator worthy of the Land of Lincoln."

http://thegarance.com/archives/712

(unfortunately, the image of the flyers is no longer on the web site)

If Obama is going to campaign, he is not immune to the same evaluations made of ALL the candidates. Playing the "racial victim" card just does not fly and in fact I would question his ability to be president if he thinks he is immune to criticism or PRAISE. Have we heard Edwards whining about being called "articulate"?

Yepsen, Des Moines Register: "Edwards Emerged As the Evening's Most Effective and Articulate Challenger to Clinton." (October 30, 2007)

Time: Edwards demonstrated "articulate passion." (October 31, 2007)

Blogger Steve Benen, the Carpetbagger Report: "I like Edwards, especially because he’s articulate and has a vision." (December 28, 2006)

Candy Crowley, CNN: "(Edwards) is... a very articulate man. ... He was front and center during the Monica Lewinsky impeachment trial of Bill Clinton and was considered very articulate during that time." (January 1, 2003)

Blogger Steve Benen, the Carpetbagger Report: "... Edwards is a very bright, articulate, and aggressive lawmaker." (August 26, 2003)

David Greenberg, Legal Affairs: "Fresh-faced and articulate, (Edwards) possessed a warmth that his rivals lacked." (January 2004)

Slate partial headline: "... John Edwards is bright and articulate and really, really youthful. ..." (February 6, 2004)

Charles Paul Freund, Reason Online: "(A)lmost all the coverage was founded on the theme of Edwards as an articulate, appealing, and energetic political force." (July 7, 2004)

Rob McManamy, the University of Chicago Chronicle: "The charismatic, passionate and articulate former U.S. Sen. John Edwards is speaking out about the need to lift more Americans out of poverty and into the middle class." (March 2, 2006)

David Hampton, clarionledger.com: "Edwards is young, smart, articulate and a good Southerner with moderate tendencies and a heart for traditional Democratic issues." (December 28, 2006)

wikiDemocrats.com: "He's charming, he's smart and he's articulate." (as of January 29, 2007)

I think people need to educate themselves on the definition of articulate and thank god that Obama IS articulate because we NEED that now.

[seabeyond]

347. i love articulate. i use the word often. a lot with my oldest, cause he is so damn articulate

and has been from a very young age. i use it whenever i find anyone particularly articulate. it is a kick ass word. wouldnt i be more racist denying the use of the word because a person is black when i would use it in describing a white person?

[M0rpheus]

366. You'd be a lot more sensitive if you understood the connotation the word has...

and said something else.

As said, much better than I could, by salin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2593970&mesg_id=2594242

becoming aware that this is one of those phrases that is used to express "pleasant surpprise" (ala "the exception" phenomenon) by racists upon encountering a black person who does not fit the racist's stereo type of how that person would behave/speak/etc. These are code words.

Here is the thing - now that you know this is how that phrase is often used - you can chose to use the phrase (you can claim that isn't your intention - but you run the risk that many would think it is a case of doth protesting too much) but you can no longer feign ignorance about the message that very well might be read into the phrase. Now it is up to you.

[DS1]

355. Obama just flew in from Iowa, and boy are his arms tired

:D

[DutchLiberal]

358. "Obama is articulate and pleasant"... Why is this racist?

I would say that about white people. So why is it racist?

[Skittles]

367. now wait a second xultar

"Obama is articluate and pleasant" - that in itself is not racist. Biden's problem was the seeming surprise he expressed that, hey here's a black guy who is articulate! I remember thinking to myself, well, if he finds articulate black folk such a surprise he certainly does not get out much.

[Karenina]

373. Xultar has raised SUCH AN IMPORTANT ISSUE

in her sassy take-no-prisoners way. She's quite happy to challenge the status quo and create a stir. Racism, in these times, can be very subtle. MOST WHITE AMERICANS HAVE NO CLUE WHAT RACISM REALLY IS. Let me repeat that:

MOST WHITE AMERICANS HAVE NO CLUE WHAT RACISM REALLY IS.

We hear ohne ende about "colourblindness" :eyes: from white people in their white bubbles who lack peer-to-peer HUMAN relationships and feel they have the (white) right to DEFINE the parameters of the discussion.

http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/24_2/07_TXT.htm

My BF thought I was playing "helpless female" when I insisted HE accompany me through the paper chase. We'd get things done in 10 minutes. He couldn't grasp why I was unwilling to "speak for myself." He FINALLY GOT IT when we boarded a train and I was accosted by the conductor as I turned to the 1st Class section. Coming up behind me he told the man quite politely yet forcefully, "TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF MY WIFE, NOW."

I can't explain all the language subtleties. CL went from "Sie" to "Du" to make his point. He spent the trip APOLOGIZING to me that he hadn't understood what I'd previously tried to make him aware of.

[LittleClarkie]

379. How about "What's that damn darkie doing runnin' for president anyway?"

Would that be racist?

(innocent look)

[seemslikeadream]

382. Depends on who's saying what