HELP! In a debate....

[Kansas Wyatt]

Currently arguing with someone that believes the Founding Fathers were very religious. Can anyone tell me which ones were not very religious? Links are not necessary..... Well maybe, since I'm dealing with a Christian.

Also, this person does not believe that health care was transformed into the medical industry awhile back. About a week ago, I noticed someone posted something about Nixon sealing medical care's fate back during his administration. Not sure on the specifics, so I would like to know if it actually went back that far and some insight into it. Can anyone help?

[Happyhippychick]

1. I'm no historian but I believe that they were religious.

That's what makes them even cooler - they were religious yet saw that religion had no place in deciding policy. They were more forward thinking than 33% of the country today.

[annabanana]

5. They were mostly "Deists", They believed in God, but were not

what your friend would probably think of as "Christian". . . .

[tekisui]

2. I believe that Thomas Jefferson wasn't *religious*.

However, it doesn't matter what the religious views of the founding fathers was. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, very intentionally, without mentioning God, Jesus Christ, Christianity, Heaven, Hell, or any other religious terms.

The word Creator appears in the DoI. But, nothing remotely close appears in the Constitution. They made it very clear that religion was to be separate from the State. Religion does appear in the Constitution, but is lower case and only to forbid establishment of a State religion.

[Justitia]

3. Well, I can tell you that Nixon signed into law the largest expansion (pre-part D) of Medicare in

1972. I believe Bush's authorization of the new Part D prescription plan probably eclipses that.

But, don't both w/such a discussion of facts w/a fundie - it's a wasted effort.

[Justitia]

4. Also, far & away, the FF were Deists (God in the abstract & removed). -eom

[Hutzpa]

6. Go back and tell

Huckleberry he has no chance.

He is the one that wants to include God in the constitution.

[jody]

7. None of the first ten presidents were practicing Christians although Jackson became one after he

left office and was grieving for his wife Rachel. Jackson became a Presbyterian about a year after retiring the presidency.

[Kansas Wyatt]

8. Okay, Thank You All!

I doubt it will do any good though, but I'm not one to let BS slide.

[Adsos Letter]

9. Please allow me to recommend a book to you...

"The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America." by Lambert.

Some of the Founders were Christians, many were Deists...and they argued about the place of religion in America; however, when they hammered out the document upon which our laws are based, they chose the wise path of seperating secular and religious realms.

As one example, you might tell your friend that under Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution, no religious test shall ever be required to hold a position of trust under the US (paraphrasing here).

Good luck...many decent people have tunnel-vision on this issue.

[The Straight Story]

10. my take on it all

Religion is something that is/was a personal choice. If you think being gay or having an abortion is wrong, you don't do it - but you respect the freedom of others to make their own decisions in life.

There are 3 tiers in life: federal government, state, and your life. When comes down to it (your life) you make choices. But in the big picture you support the freedom of others have CHOICES. Which is what God gave us early on.

You are free to restrict your all you want. You are not free to restrict others :)

[Adsos Letter]

12. And I think that is the way most of the Founders saw it...

:thumbsup:

[caligirl]

11. Nixon and HMO's the conversation and the sell

EXACT QUOTES taken from microfilm of the interview between Nixon and Ehrlichman in 1971 from the DVD/ FILM SICKO which just received top honors at the 17th annual Gotham Awards in New York.

Transcript of Ehrlichman*, counsel and Assistant to the President for Domestic Affairs explaining HMO plan to President Nixon in 1971

Ehrlichman: We have now narrowed down the Vice President's problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these Health Maintenance Organizations like Edgar Kaiser's Permanente thing

NIXON: Now let me ask you, You know I'm not too keen on any of these damn medical programs.

Ehrlichman: This is a private enterprise one

Nixon: Well, that appeals to me

Ehrlichman: Edgar Kaiser is running this Permanente deal for profit and the reason he can do it...I had Edgar Kaiser come in and talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth...All the incentatives are towards less medical care because the less care they give them, the more money they make

Nixon: Fine

Ehrlichman: and the incentives run the right way

Nixon: Not bad

The next day: Feb 18, 1971
Nixon made the following announcement to America:

I am proposing today a new national health strategy, the purpose of this program is simply this, I want America to have the finest health care in the world and I want every American to be able to have that care when he needs it....

Michael Moore narrative: The plan hatched between Nixon and Kaiser worked and in the ensuing years patients were given less and less care.......

Testimony before congress: Linda Peeno,MD, former Humana medical reviewer in 1996 "I am here today to make a public confession and tell about the dirty work of managed care"...she explains how she assured her job and advancement by denying care thus saving the company millions and how she was told repeatedly "You are not denying health care but simply denying payment:"

One of the biggest ironies in the film comes at the end with a Christmas story about Jim Kenefick who has the biggest anti-Michael Moore website http://www.moorewatch... He was telling all his readers he needed a miracle because he had to shut it down because his wife was sick and he couldn't afford to pay for health insurance.

Michael felt something was wrong that in a free country, why did he have to choose between exercising his first amendment right to run him into the ground or let his wife be sick so Michael wrote an anonymous check for the $12,000 he needed to keep his wife's insurance and in treatment.

The film generally focuses on interviews with families and American citizen's who thought they had good health coverage and their jaw dropping experiences, particularly with 911 rescue workers who finally got free help in Cuba.

There are interviews with ex-patriots, doctors, and citizens of Britian, Canada, France. Norway is included in the bonus features as he didn't think anyone would believe their lifestyle given the typical clips of Fox berating the film and calling it a lie and a cartoon. You will see the Congressional hearings where you learn that medical bills are the #1 cause of bankrupsy and homelessness in America.

It is truly amazing that we see so little in-depth discussion or debate regarding our faulty "disease care system" especially in an election year and with only one candidate, Dennis Kucinich advancing a Universal Health plan (H.R. 676) which is the norm for all other industrialized nations.
http://www.govtrack.u...

Michael ends the film with the following narrative:

Michael Moore: In the end we truly are all in same boat, no matter what our differences, we sink or swim together...that's how it seems to be everywhere else...they take care of each other no matter what their disagreements...when we see a good idea from another country, we grab it, so if they have come up with a better way to treat the sick, take care of and teach kids, simply be good to each other.... why can't we do that...what's our problem?

They seem to live in a world of We, not Me,....we'll never fix anything until we get that one basic thing right, and powerful forces hope we never do and remain the only country in western world without free Universal Health care.... If we did remove choke hold of medical bills, day care, college loans, and everything else that makes us afraid to step out of line, watch out because it will be a new day in America...in the meantime, I'm going to get the government to do my laundry...."

The film ends with this quote:

The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation but rather in her ability to repair her faults.

Alexis de Tocqueville
(He was French)

*From Wikopedia: Ehrlichman, key figure in Watergate scandal, for which he was convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and perjury. He served a year and a half in prison for his crimes)

Edited by Marcella on Jan 3, 2008 at 9:01 PM

[Kansas Wyatt]

13. Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for with Nixon.

However, I think it will fall on deaf ears. Oh well, I still cannot let it slide.

[Ilsa]

14. From the Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.