I suspect many of those saying they will vote for no one at all.....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

.... are Republican plants. I'll tell you why and then you can try and destroy my argument. Why on earth would anyone hurt the most helpless people in the U.S. by taking *ANY* action that would guarantee 8 more years of fascist GOP dictatorship, and a Supreme Court this country won't get rid till we're dead maybe? I can't fathom that.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Word. I can't imagine ever pulling the lever, so to speak, for

a republican. The worst democrat is still light years ahead of the best republican.

And, if they stay home, they will be handing the SCOTUS to the pigs for another four years.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. I AGREE! nt

[ixion]

2. if you think voting for Hillary is going to change anything, you're sorely mistaken

the DLC and the GOP are one AND the same.

And NO, I am NOT a republican 'plant', thank you very much. I have been a member of this board for close to 7 years, and have served as a moderator. I am an independent voter who decides on the issues, not the Cult of Personality.

[blondeatlast]

7. Ahem. "One AND the same."

But I'm not surprised, not in the least. :evilgrin:

[ixion]

26. thanks so much for the snarky comment

that's going to make everything so much better. :eyes:

[Hamlette]

52. works if you don't care about the Supreme Court.

and if you think Hillary will appoint the same ppl McCain will you need some education.

Why, if we'd had a majority on the Court in 2000 we would have had Gore.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

136. Yes, and our Democratic Congress was SO GOOD at blocking

Bush's nominees... :eyes:

[Hamlette]

214. Right. I forgot. The Dems are the enemy. The GOP is all goodness and light.

Do you people even hear yourselves anymore?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

275. I expect the GOP to be devious and unprincipled

I expect the Dems to try to block them whenever possible. Is that too much to ask?

[Hamlette]

284. no, not if that's the way you see things

the question is why would you sit out the presidential race when the supreme court is at stake.

Somehow it became those damn dems for not blocking nominees.

The problem is, the GOP see us as nasty and devious and wrong so they try to stop us.

Stupid game.

Carry on.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

286. As I said in a different post, I'd be more impressed with the Supreme Court

argument if the Dems had shown signs of voting down Roberts and Alito, which it was their Constitutional right to do.

I'm not going to sit out the election, by the way, although I understand why people would feel that way. There are some down-ballot candidates I like a lot, and if one of the remaining presidential candidates suddenly shows signs of spine, integrity, substance, being in touch with the realities of this country, not caring what the Republicans think, and saying things that piss off their corporate contributors, then I may reconsider.

For the Super Tuesday caucus, however, I'm voting "uncommitted."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

91. You can't be for real. That's like saying that a poisonous mushroom and a portobello are the same

If Democrats and Republicans were the same, why do people LONG for the years of Clinton despite the fact that he was a conservative Democrat *and* was under the heel of a Republican Congress and a nation that had been taken over by Republicans from the bottom all the way to the top?

According to George Lakoff, a Harvard University professor of Linguistics, Republicans have spent over 2 BILLION dollars over the past 30 years, on 43 think tanks. Why? To come up with ways to phrase deceptively and name right wing bills, right wing issues, and right wing ideology so these would sound idealistic, beneficial and good rather than like the monstrous, damaging things they are.

Republicans have also been busy for decades putting their own little fascists into every post from school boards, to library boards, to city govt., county govt., state govt., federal govt., etc etc etc. Republicans infiltrated churches and used amazingly brilliant but evil marketing tools that allowed them to even shape the theology of those churches, so that now abortion and anti-gay ideology are the most religious issues that exist in America. How f****d up is that? Republicans waged all-out war on "liberals" and the result has been that they've handcuffed all of us till we were helpless.

What has happened is that we now have trouble keeping literary books from being censored at the library level. We now have trouble putting a Democrat in a political post at the local levels. We now have trouble going to church and justifying that we are NOT against abortion and that we like gays. We almost have had to HIDE our beliefs for many years. Didn't we? DON'T TELL ME WE HAVEN'T HAD TO HIDE OUR BELIEFS IN THE PAST YEARS!

At the end of Clinton's years I thought we were reaching the tail end of that horrible, horrible era ushered in by Nixon, Reagan and the current Bush's father, all of whom did so much damage to this country it will require YEARS to fix. Clinton had been a handicapped president, and impeached for no other reason than the Repukes wanted to show their power to destroy a Democratic President, but still he managed to do a few good things. However, instead of ALL liberals voting a Democrat into the presidency with our eyes CLOSED, some Democrats chose to follow the GOP-funded NADER, knowing full well that by voting for that selfish individual, we'd be guaranteed a very fascist village idiot (GW Bush) in the White House along with his evil geniuses.

So now, after 8 f*****g years of this hell thanks to NADER, with many, many people suffering tremendously, I'm hearing some people say that if they can't have an IMMEDIATE change of everything, then they're just going to pout and refuse to vote so that another Republican like GW Bush can be voted in. These egotistical people say they want change RIGHT NOW and even tho it's impossible, and they f*****g well know it's impossible to do something immediately, by golly, if they can't have it now, they're going to throw the election to the Republicans again to f*ck up somebody. Who? We'll get to that.

I don't know what these people are drinking or shooting up or snorting, but they're illogical, or just plain @-holes, or they're Republican plants. Sorry, but it seems quite clear it's one of those. These are people that would cut their nose off to spite their face, thinking they're hurting other Democrats, and not realizing that they're f*****g themselves up as well. Me, I don't care if they f*ck themselves up, really. However, I do care for the major victims of Republicanism: the elderly, poor children, the working poor, the vets that are homeless and so on. Those people worry me. The ones spewing bullshit about how angry they are that change can't come right this second, if they jumped off a cliff it'd be fine with me. However, these people are hell-bent on punishing the most suffering, the most helpless of people in the U.S. and for that I think they're quite a mentally f*cked up little group. IF they exist at all. You see, I still believe they're merely Republican plants.

Changes, unless you're going to guillotine half the nation, will have to come slowly. It will not EVER come quickly. But apparently you people are choosing for change to never come.

And.... if you are so inclined, you ought to read this:
http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=832

[ixion]

116. I don't long for the Clinton years... stop generalizing

Clinton continued many of the Reagan/Bush policies of the 80's, and I'll not give him a pass there.

Look, it's your business if you want to maintain the delusion that things will change under another Clinton presidency, but please don't insist that I share your delusion.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

152. Well a LOT of people long for the Clinton years. If you choose to live under a rock, that's fine

Suit yourself.

[ixion]

156. millions of non-violent offenders were jailed in the Clinton years

if you think that's freedom and liberty, then you're the one living under a rock, not me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

161. I'm wondering what you were doing during the Clinton years, really.

The reason I'm wondering is it really baffles me how you could have lived through that time and not realized that by then the whole F*****G country had gone right wing, with right wingers in office at all levels of every level of government, with right wingers in all churches at all levels dictating the same F*****G NEO-CON theology, and with a media that parroted every F*****G right wing thing that any of the right wingers in control said.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you never lived through it because you weren't old enough. Humor me on this. Don't tell me that you lived through it, 'cause I'm going to think you were drunk through all those years that you never noticed the whole F*****G country was right wing and Clinton was practically rendered powerless and to boot was impeached.

On the other hand, I will say that I STILL believe the lot of people who are claiming to be unhappy and refusing to vote Democratic, are just Republican plants and nothing else.

[ixion]

195. just keep those blinders on... you'll be okay

much to your chagrin, I did live through it. And I realized in the 80's that there were many in the government who enjoyed fascism, and wanted to make it part and parcel of America. I thought that people would never tolerate fascism, because we were raised to cherish the ideals of freedom and liberty.

Imagine my dismay when the march to fascism not only continued, but was embraced by the Democrats.

And thinking I'm a republican plant just shows how thick those blinders are. I loathe the GOP, who has done so much to destroy this nation. And for you to accuse people of that, simply because they don't agree with you, is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. And it's because of my loathing of the GOP that it makes me so sad to see the Democrats following in suit.

I'm an independent. I look at the issues with no political bias. I simply call'em as I see'em. And when I see Democrats acting like Republicans and calling it democratic, I don't think that is avant garde, I think it's pathetic.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

203. What's pathetic is you planning to do something that will hurt the weakest Americans.....

..... and feeling smug and good about it. That's pathetic and sad.

[ixion]

211. tell that to the candidate that you love so dearly, and have so much faith in

I'm not doing anything to hurt anyone.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

216. Who, Edwards? He was my choice, and he's making an endorsement on Tuesday nt

[ixion]

249. okay, cool. I was for Kucinich...

but he was largely ignored by the MSM. :(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

259. I agree. Please, if you haven't already, sign this petition to sue the media for that reason.....

It's a petition to gather 10,000 names. Once these are gathered, the ACLU will be approached and requested to file a lawsuit against the MSM for manipulating the campaign. The best case scenario: the ACLU will take it and file the lawsuit. The worst case scenario: The media will realize there are some REALLY angry people out there who will soon begin to affect their ratings, and their profits.


http://citizenclassaction.com/index.php

[ixion]

260. will do... thanks!

:hi:

[LanternWaste]

261. If it helps, I'm one of those people.

"Well a LOT of people long for the Clinton years."

If it helps, I'm one of those people.

Although the history of his administration has been changing quite a bit ever since Sen. Clinton began her Presidential run, I remember what life was like for me during his Presidency, and for me and those I personally know (the only one's any of us can really speak for in these cases), they were better than Carter-Reagan-Reagan-Bush by a LONG shot.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

270. Thank you. Nowadays LOTS of people long for the Clinton years. nt

[rucky]

122. If she doesn't win, we'll never know.

Electing a Dem oughta be worth an "I told you so" for you. And if it makes no difference, and there are only two false choice, then why not go with the odds & vote for the Dem? There's nothing to lose and maybe even something to gain from it.

or is it pride? if it is, then the OP is right (about motives - not party affiliation)

[GreenPartyVoter]

165. Seriously. I want PROOF that the Dem nominee won't pander to the Republicans and Big Biz like

we've seen for the last several years.

[ixion]

196. that's the thing: They will...

it's what they've been doing since the 80's. The march towards fascism will not be stopped. Slowed, perhaps, but we'll be marching there nonetheless.

[rucky]

218. The only way to know for sure is to elect one. n/t

[gateley]

3. I'm with you, too.

I have concerns about both O and Hillary, so when I vote it will be voting AGAINST the Reps.

Randi said this quote today (you've probably heard it, but I hadn't):

"In the primary you fall in love. In the general you fall in line."

That's pretty much where I am right now.

[JDPriestly]

25. Not me. Not this time.

I have always done that in the past. I am 64, and I want real change. The planet will not survive Republican-lite, and that is all that is left of the Democratic candidates. I have always voted Democratic. I plan to write in John Edwards in February and in November. I will not be pushed around by the media that shut John Edwards out and doomed his campaign.

[gateley]

33. I understand and fully support your right to do that.

I'm just MORE afraid of the Republican Right than I am of Republican-lite. Granted, the lesser of two evils, but I, personally, feel that's what I must do -- just like you, personally, feel you must vote for Edwards. :hi:

[waiting for hope]

40. I'm writing him in too -

This was the first time ever I have felt so strongly about a candidate being able to shape the future, my children's future.

[Toasterlad]

88. Thank You. And I Agree, Although I'm Voting for Kucinich

I will not allow anyone to tell me my only choice is Clinton or Obama.

[Marr]

128. I agree with you.

I think the people who are focussed purely on the next election are engaged in the sort of short-term thinking that will leave with US without any meaningful progress indefinitely. Corporate Dems can play this "who else you gonna vote for?" game forever.

I've reached the point where I think letting the Democratic Party lose may be the only thing that will save it in the long run. Nothing will change until the public is so overwhelmingly angry that they reject the media-approved candidates outright. Another DLC Democrat will do nothing. Worse than nothing, in fact, since they'll leave a lot of people feeling as if there's no hope.

That said, there may be room for both. Perhaps the "let them lose until they ditch the corporatists" strategy would be best in Congress, while a more pragmatic approach might be useful when considering the Presidency.

Either way, I certainly understand where you're coming from.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. I fear that the DLC would spin a loss by one of their chosen candidates as

1) "Hillary Clinton/Barack Obama was 'too liberal' for the electorate, so we'd better run Joe Lieberman and Harold Ford next time."

2) "It's all the fault of the Democrats who didn't give us the votes they owe us."

[Marr]

193. No doubt about it.

I can't wait to hear the accusations of how the "left" lost the election for Hillary/Obama, and how we clearly need to ignore them more thoroughly next time around. :/

You can count on that being the conventional wisdom.

[long_green]

287. Let them, let them, let them, dear God let them!

There are enough pissed off Democrats now, just let them try to anoint a raving DLCneocon freak instead of the pale imitations they use now. Progressivism will survive the Democratic Party.

[Individualist]

239. Absolutely,

and add the old standby:

3. It's Nader's fault.

According to them, losses are always everyone else's fault. The party machine won't admit that they, and only they, are responsible for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by promoting nominees who can't win.

[EstimatedProphet]

242. They certainly would do the first

So that kind of rules out the idea that they will start trying to lean left, doesn't it?

So, if we want the party to move left, NOT VOTING FOR THEM ISN'T GOING TO HELP ANY!

[peacebird]

38. "fall in line"? no. I'm not a republican and I don't vote lockstep for anyone with a "D"

Not doing it. Not this time. If the party puts Hillary up as the nominee then they are essentially telling me that I am persona non grata. I am a progressive liberal. And I do not believe HRC is the person to move the country forward OR unite us again. I also believe she will rule for the corporations that brung her, not for the people. She will tell us the breaks for the corporations are needed to help the economy, but exxon mobile has had record year upon record year and still there are no new good jobs being created. Halliburton has had huge growth and still no new good American jobs are created.

Hillary was a Republican when she was young (a Goldwater gal), and still is a corporatist. If I wanted to vote repub-lite then I would vote McCain. I want a progressive democrat. I want someone who will protect and defend the constitution, and the bill of rights.

I can vote for Obama, and will in the primary. But if HRC gets the nomination then - as I have said since she tossed her hat in the ring - I will not vote for her in the general election.

Period.

[alarimer]

43. Not me. Not this time

No falling in line for me. I am through.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

95. Thanks! nt

[Phillycat]

4. I don't think they're plants, but...

In the case of the Edwards supporters, I think they're upset, angry, and disappointed today, and I think it would be foolish to take them at their word while they're still venting and not thinking clearly. Maintaining that level of grief and anger for ten months is nigh on impossible and I think in the end, they'll vote for the nominee, most of them. In the meantime, the sort of bossy boots pushy posts requiring Edwards supporters to fall in line and choose their candidates right now are NOT HELPING. Let people vent, damn.

[lonestarnot]

11. I am an Edwards supporter, was an Edwards supporter and that kind of venting we don't need.

I don't like seeing or hearing it and neither would Edwards.

[Phillycat]

73. I am an Edwards supporter too and I didn't vent like that either.

But people are different, haven't you heard? It's a message board, people are allowed to post their feelings and change their minds.

[lonestarnot]

78. No problem with venting, but will not refrain from posting my opinion

on what a stupid retaliation it is for a dem to say they will not vote for or support the dem nominee in the general election.

[JDPriestly]

29. You would be right, except it isn't just about Obama and Hilary.

It is about the media. It is about the theft of the presidency in 2000 and possibly in 2004. It is about the refusal of Congress to enforce and maintain our constitutional rights. It is about the failure of Democrats in Congress to impeach the president for his crimes. It is about the willingness of Congress to grant immunity to the telecom companies and to allow our government to spy on us without probably cause in violation of the Constitution. It is about Bush's imperial presidency.

It is about buying votes -- through tax rebates and promises of tax rebates and kick-backs and earmarks. I want real change, not Hillary-change which is funded by the corporations or Obama-change which is the same kind of fad as Brittany Spears. I want John Edwards for my president. And I'm not going to vote for anyone else. I'm 64. When I say no, it means no. This is our last chance to save the environment and establish at least a modicum of economic justice in our society. No way I am voting for Hillary who is sold out or for Obama who doesn't know what he is talking about but says it well.

[lonestarnot]

34. Then go play with your tiddly winks. Why are you bothering to post?

[Toasterlad]

89. What a Dumb Thing to Say.

"Why are you bothering to post?" Why are YOU??? What makes your post any more valid than that one? I completely agree with JD and completely DISagree with you, but I didn't demean YOUR stupid opinion.

[Le Taz Hot]

213. You know what?

You're pretty damned mouthy, you know it? Now, as a mouthy broad myself I've nothing against it per se, but have some substance and intelligence to back it up. The poster you just quipped at made some EXCELLENT points and you come back with some mindless juvenile snark? And, btw, it's not up to YOU to decide who posts here and who doesn't. If you want to be hall monitor, start your own site.

[lonestarnot]

246. Hmmmmf...

I found nothing excellent about throwing in the towel. "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them you're a mile a way AND you have their shoes." I have your fucking shoes.

[LiberalHeart]

183. I'm with you 100% on this.

I think many here miss the long-term damage being inflicted on the Democratic Party by these "choices" we're left with.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

93. Hey, I know! I'm the world's biggest Edwards supporter! :-)

I would MUCH MUCH prefer to have Edwards. I'd also much prefer to live in Provence. However, if it can't be Provence, hey, I'm okay with Aventura. Same for the general elections. :thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

5. Sadly, there really are anti-social types who'll screw us all rather than taint

their purity.

I don't doubt there are agent provocoteurs among us but I think there's just more that have never made a compromise in their life. I remember that time, I was young once too.

[Donnachaidh]

10. wow -- and the future screwing up of the nation won't have anything to

do with YOUR vote, right?

Of course, if it's not your candidate that wins you already have someone picked out to blame it on. What a mature response. :rofl:

[lonestarnot]

Sarcastic much?

[blondeatlast]

16. Who's my candidate, my friend?

You'd be very much surprised, I think...

[TahitiNut]

22. Bravo! That's an almost perfect restatement of the stance of Vichy France against the resistance.

:applause: People with no moral compass often think a sense of direction is useless. Just follow the herd.

[JDPriestly]

35. Vous avez raison. You are absolutely right my friend.

I am too old to pretend I don't know what is right or to ignore what is right. History teaches us that you cannot compromise with the kind of corruption that has taken over this country. Both Hillary and Obama are right smack dab in the middle of that corruption. They are nice people. I'm not saying they take bribes or cheat in that sense, but they compromise with corruption. Obama has taken money from the nuclear power industry. Hillary takes money from anyone who will give it. That is courting corruption. The stories about the "sale" of nights in the Lincoln bedroom may or may not have been true. I have not idea. But the image is compelling and certainly seems a possibility when you look at the list of Hillary's campaign donors. Her donors may not actually sleep in the White House, but they will inevitably influence Hillary's dreams while she is there.

[EFerrari]

48. They both have donors under indictment right now.

But then, maybe all politicians at or near that level do nowadays.

[lumberjack_jeff]

248. It is apparent that all the successful ones do. n/t

[JDPriestly]

258. Of course, a candidate cannot investigate every donor.

I'm only concerned about donors who give a lot of money and who may be in a position to expect favors. Johnson was virtually put into office by Brown & Root (now Halliburton) and the paving of Viet Nam was the payoff. We want to watch out for that kind of corruption.

[readmoreoften]

114. Thank you! "People with no moral compass often think a sense of direction is useless"

Beautiful. :toast:

Every election the evil becomes lesser. If McCain had a (D) after his name 80% of Democratic Underground would vote for him it seems.

[martymar64]

23. The problem with Hillbama is they're ALL COMPROMISE

They have no principles at all.

This will go down in history as the day the democratic party became the dlc party

[warren pease]

58. True, they're just unprincipled hacks ...

...which is enough of a reason not to vote for either of them. But worse than that is how amazingly deep they are in the pockets of corporate America. Clinton raised about $91 million from Jan 1 to Sept 30 last year, the great majority of it coming from corporate PACs, lobbyists, industry associations, front groups established specifically to funnel money into corporatist candidates coffers and directly from top corporate execs in insurance, banking, corporate law and financial institutions.

Obama pulled in about $80 million during the same period, mostly from the same sources, although where Clinton is beloved by the insurance industry, Obama seems to be the heartthrob of the financial services types. Again, most from individual execs, PACs, lobbyists and other unsavory types whose only objective is to continue to reap fortunes from the superstitions and uncertainties of the less savvy and fiscally terrorized middle and working classes.

That said, how the hell can anyone vote for one of these awful people with the expectation that they represent change? Clinton's health care plan is another giveaway to for-profit medicine and predatory insurers. Obama will be happy to instruct his SEC appointees to look the other way when Wall Street decides it needs a little more leverage over the proles and proposes some incredibly regressive policies to allow them to fleece their less wealthy clients to within an inch of their monetary lives.

Oh yeah, change is in the air. We just need to hope. We need to be more optimistic. We need to cast our votes yet again for somebody no sane person would choose to represent their interests if there were any other decent people in the race.

Man, my nose is broken in three places from holding it during various elections. I don't need it to happen a fourth time to learn what's what, and who's doing what to whom.

Gawd help the screwees of America, because nobody else will.


wp

[leftchick]

86. I agree wp

completely. Well said.

[JDPriestly]

31. Don't say anything about Pelosi and Reid and their timidity

if you don't have the courage to vote your conscience, why should they?

The earth will not compromise. It will avenge our terrible abuse of it. And neither Hillary nor Obama has the strength to change our environmental policy enough to save the earth. I will not vote for them.

[Windy]

37. Wow...just like the repub garbage line.When your young you vote dem, when you grow up you vote R

Please don't try to use that type of comparison toward those who have real issues with Hillary Clinton.

Will I hold my nose and vote for her to try and save the supreme court, yes.

Do I think she is what is best for this country? Absolutely not. It will give me great angst to have to vote for her.

There are many who will not be able to do it. They may go to Nader, or someone else, if there is a someone else, or will sit it out.

Hillary supporters would be wise not to tread on their true passion!

[Annces]

53. I remember when Studs Terkel said he was voting for Nader in 2000

He said he was voting for someone who represented his views. I thought that was kind of odd. There are purists out there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

96. They're not even revolutionaries. They're cowards. They don't think logically.....

... they don't do anything for their country. They just sit on their hands and pout. That is, IF they're not Republican plants. (I still think they are)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

141. Yeah, right, they're all Republican plants, even the ones who

cast their first vote ever for McGovern or Humphrey or Johnson or Kennedy. Even the ones who joined DU in 2001. Even the ones who cheered when Nixon resigned. Even the ones who marched against the Vietnam War before it was a popular thing to do.

Maybe they've just lost the political faith that carried them through those years.

By the way, there ARE alternatives to voting Democratic that don't involve voting Republican, and a person can still vote Democratic in the down-ballot races. There are some fine options here in Minnesota.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

151. Gee, I don't know. If they're not Republican plants, they're as dumb as a plant....

.. because if something if they're watching the old suffering under this Republican pig in the White House, and they're going to throw another Republican pig in there because they can't have the EXACT candidate they feel like having, or because they can't have instant magical change right this second, well, I have no choice but to say they're either a Republican plant, or they're dumb as a plant. What else can I say in the face of stupidity and a refusal to reason?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

153. Or maybe it's "dumb" to do the same thing over and over

(reluctantly voting for someone who plays nicey-nice with the Republicans) and expect different results.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

157. I do know this, it's dumb to put in another Republican and I'll bet you're going to do that

Aren't you?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

170. I'm just one vote

I wish I had the power to decide who gets into the White House. There are plenty of able prospects in the Progressive Caucus and the Black Caucus, if only the Democratic Party would give them a fair chance and not treat them as the embarrassingly crazy cousins.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

171. That's exactly what all the Republican plants are saying, "I'm only one vote" nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

178. Okay, if an anonymous stranger on a message board wants to think that

I'm a Republican, fine with me. You just go on thinking that if it makes you feel better.

:eyes:

[scarletwoman]

179. It's become obvious that we're way out of the realm of rational argument here.

But it's always a treat to see you, LL!

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

180. Same here

Have you checked out the Minnesota Forum to see the news about the next gathering?

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

182. Oops! Nope -- I'll go check it out. (nt)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

202. Republicans are callous, they don't care how they hurt the weakest....

... they're unthinking machines, they're infantile, and they do things to ensure that Republicans get elected.

Now you tell ME how I'm supposed to think people who are encouraging or taking any steps at all that will help the re-election of Republicans into the White House, are not Republican plants.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

212. Only if you can explain how electing DLC Democrats

who--

1. Approve Bush's appointments to the Supreme Court when they could have blocked them. If they're so big on protecting the Supreme Court and the rule of law, they could have voted down every nominee until he put forth one who was at least tolerable, but they went with his first nominees in a regular love fest.

2. Promote the kind of "free" trade and H-1B visas that deny well-paying, highly skilled jobs to Americans

3. Were willing to compromise away extensions of unemployment benefits in order to pass the "economic stimulus"

4. Keep voting to continue the Iraq War, when they could have blocked any funding for the single biggest drain on the national budget, thus joining the Republicans to ensure that there's "no money" to help the unfortunate

5. Voted for Kyl-Lieberman

6. Voted for FISA

7. Voted for the Bankruptcy Bill, which makes it nearly impossible for working families to get relief from debts due to medical bills or long periods of unemployment

8. Voted for the Patriot Act

9. Can't get together articles of impeachment for the president and vice-president who deserve impeachment more than any such pair in the history of this country

10. Under Clinton, passed Welfare "Reform," the Telecommunications Act, and NAFTA, all of which Clinton could have vetoed and didn't

11. Use lame excuses for their inaction or negative actions:
"That vile piece of legislation was going to pass anyway--why not vote for it?"
"Presidents have the right to choose their nominees" (Lydia adds:"...The Senate has the right to reject them, and often has")
"We don't have control of Congress."
"We have to concenrage on getting a Democratic majority."
"We have a Democratic majority, but it's not a veto-proof majority." (Lydia adds: "A simple majority is enough to BLOCK any piece of legislation, and the Republicans seem to know how to do this, along with not letting bills they don't like even get out of committee.")
Now assuming that a Democratic president is elected next fall, I know from experience what their next excuse will be: "We have to maintain a spirit of bipartisanship."

--will "help the poor and needy," then I'm all ears.

So if you really believe that a Democratic majority plus a corporation-appeasing president will do any more than put a few colorful band-aids over our gravely wounded country, you haven't been paying attention these past few years.

If the Dems start doing their job, which is being an opposition party and developing a conscience and a spine, then I'll take another look at the two media-anointed frontrunners.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

217. It keeps Repukes out, and ANY DLC DEM is a god compared to any Repuke. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

233. Well, if it helps you to believe that, go ahead

I used to feel that way, too.

[Art_from_Ark]

288. I used to feel that way, too

And I think you know that I'm not happy with what has been allowed to remain in the Democratic field. And there might not be any real change if either of them gets elected. But if nothing else, there are Cabinet positions and potential Supreme Court nominees to think about. With the republicans, they always favor appointees who are the antithesis of the positions they are being appointed to. Every damn one of them, it seems. I would prefer to take my chances with one of the D's, even though I'm going to have to hold my nose to vote for either of them. I've never missed a Presidential election since 1980, and I'm not going to start now. And when the dust settles, the winner will be one of only two choices. And I cannot stomach the thought of a McCain or Romney presidency.

[Djinn]

184. I'd say they're smarter

or at least have considerably better political analysis than you.

Can you tell me why it was better to have a Democrat hand over lists of Communists to Suharto instead of a Republican?

Can you tell me why it was better for a Democrat President to authorise Operation Phoenix instead of a Republican?

Can you tell me why it was better for a Democrat President to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Iran instead of a Republican?

Can you explain why funnelling cash and weapons to nutbag religious fanatics in Afghanistan was a good idea when a Democrat did it but would have been foolish for a Republican?

I really didn't want to say it because calling people stupid on the basis of a post is, well stupid, however your abject inability to look beyond two parties who espouse the EXACT same system, certainly suggests extreme political naivete at best and a total ignorance of history at worst.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

205. by really hurting the weakest Americans? Oh yeah they're real smart. nt

[Djinn]

276. Care to answer the question?

Do you really think your petulant insistence that you're right passes for intelligent political comment?

If there is such glaring differences between R & D's can you please answer any of the questions asked?

Can you tell me why it was better to have a Democrat hand over lists of Communists to Suharto instead of a Republican?

Can you tell me why it was better for a Democrat President to authorise Operation Phoenix instead of a Republican?

Can you tell me why it was better for a Democrat President to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Iran instead of a Republican?

Can you explain why funnelling cash and weapons to nutbag religious fanatics in Afghanistan was a good idea when a Democrat did it but would have been foolish for a Republican?

I'm guessing you'll need to do some reasearch as the political knowledge you've displayed here is pretty abysmal and I would really doubt you've heard of Operation Phoenix or LBJ's assistance in Suharto's slaughter but perhaps these are things you really should know

[Djinn]

185. don't do anything huh?

while you're in a different country than I am, this same screeching chorus to get behind the party happens here to, I imagine many American posters will have similar history/experiences to me:

Can I ask Sarah Ibarruri what it is that YOU do beyond voting every couple of years? You don't honestly believe that makes you politically active do you?

Can I ask if you've ever been arrested protesting?
Ever unionised non union workplaces?
Ever given a room to someone persecuted by your nations policiies?
Ever given up the comfort of your home to chain yourself to a tree in an old growth forest?
Ever risked your own employment to improve others worknig standards?

If not then shut the fuck up about other people "doing nothing"

Frankly the people I see who actually ARE "doing something" are almost ALWAYS from the "far left" because middle of the road, middle income bourgoise ignorami tends to beleive they've done their part by voting ALP (Democrat/UK Labour whatever)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

228. I work with the elderly poor, which is how I know that under Clinton they were doing "okay" and

now they're SUFFERING. No, I don't sit on my hands like most of the ones who are either Republican plants, or complete angry losers hoping to finish off this country by ensuring another 8 years of Repukes.

[Djinn]

274. yeah sure

if you worked with elderly poor can you please explain HOW they were better off under Clinton?

Oh and when you say "work with" do you mean paid? If so that doesn't cut it, have you ever done anything that put you at risk? required any sacrifice?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

282. You don't know what Bush has done?

George Bush inherited from Clinton a BUDGET SURPLUS of 86.4 BILLION. He began by giving tax cuts to the rich, and going on a spending spree giving away our tax money to every corporate interest he could. Bush never met a for-profit corporation he didn't like. Meanwhile, cutting every imaginable program, such as Medicare, which is now HIGHLY underfunded. He then lied about a wonderful drug program for seniors, which was only a trick to get seniors to further enrich the drug corporations. He sent the debt through the roof by starting an unjustified war against a country he lied about to start. His corporate deregulations have led to a redistribution of money, so that corporate profits hit 1.35 trillion last year and of course these corporate freaks do not reinvest it or give back to their employees. They keep it, so, the rest of the country, having not gotten any of that distribution, has nothing to spend and the economy has gone to hell in a handbasket, leading to mass layoffs and more understaffing. Due to the war and deregulation, oil is through the roof and therefore everything else is through the roof, and salaries have receded, so that people are unable to buy what they need. Even Repukes are admitting this administration has destroyed this economy. Did you just land on this planet or what?

[lumberjack_jeff]

250. How to win friends and influence people.

No reasonable person would find my liberal citizenship creds wanting, nor I daresay are those of most if not all of the people here who are the most vocally disheartened about the result of this primary.

They're upset because they've been shouting about corporate control of the media, about our new aristocracy, about civil liberties and imperialism. About NAFTA and globalization.

No one listened, and now it is demonstrably too late. Progress lost. You lost too, but you don't appear to have the awareness to realize it.

The corporations control what you hear, and if you appear tempted to color outside the lines, there's always the threat of gitmo.

Enjoy your tennis match - that's really all it is, and the outcome really only matters to the participants and the celebrities they've carefully positioned at courtside.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

6. Gittin rid of that ole big govermet..

[More Than A Feeling]

9. Ok, locking on to your argument.

1. They may think that the Supreme Court is already gone, unless Kennedy retires or dies within the next eight years. Kennedy is 71. So, playing oddsmaker by pulling a number out of my butt, I'd call it a 40% chance Kennedy leaves the court in time to allow the president elected this november to make the appointment. Meanwhile, the Court can continue to overrule its precedents so long as it doesn't come out and say that they are being overruled.

2. They may think that the Democratic congress has not shown them enough to trust that a Democratic president wouldn't turn in a similarly disappointing performance.

The first argument I regard as more plausible than the second, and its why I grimace when people threaten potential non-voters with the loss of the Supreme Court.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

97. Okay so your premise is that they don't care what happens.....

.....
You may be right. That would be kinda like a father that has a child that has learning disabilities, and instead of working hard for years with the school system to get him special needs classes, and instead of taking years out of his personal time to teach the child so he will thrive *as much as he can*, he says, "Aww f*ck it! Let him flunk. He's not smart and he's not learning magically without help, so I don't give a sh*t!"

They're lazy people.

IF they're not Republican plants (which I still think they are).

[lastliberalintexas]

173. Uh, no, that wasn't his/her premise

You and many others fail to realize or do not care to understand just how far gone the courts already are. The next president probably won't have that much impact on the SC, believe it or not.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

206. OH! I GET IT! So you think it's gone to hell so you're gonna shoot the horse once and for all

RIGHT?

[Zodiak]

12. I am a long-time DUer

and as far from a Republican plant as you can get.

But I will not vote for Hillary....ever.

I am a progressive. I stand up for progressives.

Electing a DLCer to the WH only ensures that the Democrats remain as far to the right as possible and progressives are denied a voice for another generation. A voice that is desperately needed.

She will not get into the WH with my seal of approval. I cannot in good conscience do that. I do not want Tom Vilsack in a cabinet position. I do not want the "left" being represented by the likes of Mary Landrieu and Donna Brasile. They piss people off and reinforce the notion that there is not a damn bit of difference between the parties.

As far as any Democrat being better than any Republican...look at the voting record of Ben Nelson vs. Lincoln Chafee and tell me who is more progressive. We allow right wingers in our party who give every single issue to the Republicans over and over again and willingly look the other way because of the D. I hold up this Congress as a case in point.

I do not serve the D. I serve the working people of the United States...I wish the D would serve them for a change rather than demand the votes they are "owed" without doing a goddamned thing to earn them.

If Obama gets it...fine, I'll vote for him, but it will be a cold day in hell before I consciously allow the DLC to have the bully pulpit.

As far as the Supreme Court goes...we already lost that. And it was the DLC that made sure we got Alito and Roberts, so I see no gains there if we allow the DLC in the WH. They will make sure they continue to have business friendly judges who will screw the American worker of his rights and property.

[Critters2]

19. Couldn't have said it better. Thank you. nt

[peacebird]

41. well said, well said.

:toast:

[MzNov]

56. So Zokiak, are you saying

that you would vote for the Repuke if Hillary gets the nomination?

:hi:

[Zodiak]

59. Whoops.

On edit....I think you were being sarcastic.

Sorry about that....my daggers are out today. Haven't had my Mike Malloy to release it.

[MzNov]

63. Wow, I'm surprised at your answer. I did not expect it from you.

I was curious. I insinuated NOTHING. Wow. You didn't state in your post like so many I've read today whether you would vote for McCain, or another Republican instead of Hillary. You stated you would never vote for Hillary.

all I wanted to know is whether that meant you would vote for a Republican if Hillary got the D nomination.

WOW. Guess I got my answer.

[Zodiak]

64. sorry

I'm a doofus.

[MzNov]

66. It's OK, we're all a little brittle today.

I'm just picking peoples' brains today trying to figure out the reasons for their decisions.

No harm done. My little feelings will get over it. :-)

and I'm telling Venus!!!!

[VenusRising]

65. His rage goes to 11 today.

You'll have to forgive him.

:hi:

[MzNov]

67. LOL, Hey you.

:hi: :hug:

I forgive him. :rofl:

[VenusRising]

69. I've been dealing with him all day.

It's fun. :rofl:

:hug:

[MzNov]

70. He needs a Malloy fix tonite!

[VenusRising]

71. Only 90 more minutes.

I wonder if I will last that long. :P

[MzNov]

72. You have time for a short nap.

:bounce:

[VenusRising]

74. I wonder if I can induce a coma until the election is over?

:think:

[EFerrari]

76. Maybe we could get group rates.

:hide:

[VenusRising]

79. We'd have to get a group count before inquiry.

They try to stick you if you have more or less in your group than you initially report.

:P

[MzNov]

83. Please share if you discover how to do that.

:hug:

[VenusRising]

87. It's on the list next to "beaming".

One will get me sleep and unconsciousness and the other will get me to Borneo. Both worthwhile endeavors if you ask me. ;)

[MzNov]

68. Hey Z-o-D-i-a-k !

Moi, sarcastic?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. There ARE more than two parties, you know

:-)

[Zodiak]

155. Absolutely, I know.

But right now I am warning this party to get its act together before they suffer disappointment of Pelosi-like proportions.

[DutchLiberal]

61. Thank you for making sense.

:hi:

[fascisthunter]

82. What Zodiak Said..... (nt)

[paulk]

94. Nebraska isn't Rhode Island

if that's the level of thought that goes into a decision like yours, I can understand why you would make it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

99. So... let's say you were disabled and on disability.....

... and the next Repuke president had already guaranteed he was going to do away with all disability and you'd be homeless and would probably die on the street. Would you still not vote for Hillary? Please tell me that your convictions are so strong, that even if it meant death to you, you'd STILL not vote for Hillary. Because if you say you would, then I'm going to tell you you have no heart for those who ARE suffering and who WILL suffer even further under another Repuke president. And that's all I have to say to you, long-time DUer.

[zalinda]

115. I may very well end up on the street

and I can tell you now, Bill Clinton was no friend to the poor. He cut welfare and benefits. Right now, you cannot make more than $800 a month or you don't get medicaid, make $10 more than that, they cut you off and make you pay for what you used. Nothing will change for the poor if either Obama or Clinton get in the White House. They did absolutely NOTHING, NOTHING during Katrina, NOTHING. Where were their voices? Where were the dem voices? Edwards has been the only one who has been yelling about it, but no one listens. Face it, the dem party has left us. You only matter if you can afford to be a regular at Starbucks. You only matter if you can give THEM money.

I gave the reps in 2006 the benefit of the doubt, I even defended them. But, what have they done? Why aren't they doing something except writing letters that are ignored? Tell me when have they listened to the marchers? Tell me when have they listened to the screaming Iraqi children? Tell me what they have done to help people get their homes back in New Orleans? Tell me what they have done to stop this mad President? You tell me why we should trust these people, even a little.

And then you tell me why we should vote for one of two people who have been silent while all these things have been going on? Both have had the power and the voice to be heard in this past year, and they have said not one word.

zalinda

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Bill Clinton was a moderate, but he came in at a time when even MOST Democrats...

.. even Democrats that are right now whining because the country isn't "lib" enough, were applauding Reagan like trained seals. Into that atmosphere and environment of sheer fascist stupidity, Bill Clinton came. And while he was a moderate and not a lib, he had to contend with being surrounded by a right wing everything, right wing media, right wing Congress, right wing population, right wing impeachment for nothing at all. But he was supposed to be some magical David that was going to slay the cancerous GOP Goliath that had taken over this country. Wow. We sure have some fantastic expectations of others, while WE ourselves are doing so little, huh?

And now, of course, at this cusp when you could be AVERTING another monster while we work towards something better, you are just going to throw this election to the Repukes again. Nice.

[zalinda]

251. Please remember when he came in

he had a dem Congress and a dem Senate, which he lost. He had 2 years to make a difference and didn't, not for me, and I supported him, both times.

zalinda

[Sarah Ibarruri]

265. And a nation that was right wing - it was the beginning of when abortion doctors began to be bombed

when mothers who had been abandoned by their husbands and needed help were called, "welfare queens," of when locally the school board began to accost teachers because they were teaching "too much" about how indians suffered, the beginning of a nation going right wing because they'd taken everything over. Take yourself back in time. Perhaps your memory is failing you. How else could Clinton have been impeached if not because this cancer called Republicans had taken everything over?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

149. Bill Clinton was a moderate, but he came in at a time when even MOST Democrats...

.. even Democrats that are right now whining because the country isn't "lib" enough, were applauding Reagan like trained seals. Into that atmosphere and environment of sheer fascist stupidity, Bill Clinton came. And while he was a moderate and not a lib, he had to contend with being surrounded by a right wing everything, right wing media, right wing Congress, right wing population, right wing impeachment for nothing at all. But he was supposed to be some magical David that was going to slay the cancerous GOP Goliath that had taken over this country. Wow. We sure have some fantastic expectations of others, while WE ourselves are doing so little, huh?

And now, of course, at this cusp when you could be AVERTING another monster while we work towards something better, you are just going to throw this election to the Repukes again. Nice.

[Zodiak]

166. False dilemna

I can pick out people who are sure to die if either puke or corporate Dem is elected President and it is neither in your nor my power to predict what exactly will happen. Your scenario was not advocated by McCain, so I do not see where it is coming from.

I will tell you that corporations raping the poor will continue...either way. That is the central message of my original argument.

Has Hillary spoken out for the poor, for those that will get not benefit from the "economic stimulus"? No. Edwards has to beg them to pay attention to those issues in trade for an endorsement.

How about this since we are all for predicting the future.....Hillary has shown the unnerving tendency to fearmonger just like * and she signed the Kyl-Leiberman amendment. Can I in god conscience vote for someone when I suspect that Iranians will die as a result?

Can I vote for someone who will not being universal healthcare to this nation and cause many tens of thousands of Americans to die?

How about the soldiers who are sure to be stuck in Iraq?

We can play this game all day, but in the end, I am left with my conscience, which tells me not to get in bed with dogs. She brings nothing to the table that the people want except a few social issues and her political allies are anathema to progressive causes. Will Marshall, DLC founder, is a PNAC signatory!

I draw the line at the DLC...I will not affix my seal of approval to it. They can rape the country and pass Repuke legislation without my vote.

ON EDIT: oh...you're the one who started this "disappointed Edwards supporters disgusted with the party are Republicans" meme...I am wondering if it is worth my time to engage anyone who wants to start such a witch-hunt? Is this kind of argumentation the sort in which you wish to engage? False dilemnas and witch-hunts? Loyalty oaths? I'm too old for playground tactics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

226. Do you volunteer in helping the poor, the ill, the helpless? Or do you just do nothing at all but

flap the jaws and move the fingers?

I vote for the latter. I'll bet I'd win.

[Zodiak]

262. I bet you introduced another non-sequitir

Nice going...accuse me of not caring at all.

However, in the context of this discussion I could tell you that I was Mother Theresa and it would not make my points any more or less valid.

However, since you insist...I cannot help the poor. I am poor. However, I have taken a homeless man in my home and fed him and gave him free rent for a year, but who cares?

It has nothing to do with my point. Your non-sequitir only underscores the fact that you have nothing at all to say but facile arguments.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

263. Just as I thought. You don't help the helpless, so you have no clue how they're suffering

under this Republican administration.

[VenusRising]

271. Nevermind.

:eyes:

[Zodiak]

272. Either you are willfully ignorant or you can't read.

For one, I just said I took a homeless man into my home for over a year without charing a red cent for rent or food. I got him back in his feet...personally. I didn't toss money to some charity and hope it went to the right place.

For two, I am poor, so I perfectly understand these things. I have been poor all of my life.

Your argument is a non-sequitir...it has nothing to do with any of my points. It is instead a deflection and a whole "attack the messenger" style argument that has no place in true political discourse.

You have proven nothing, won at nothing, and what's worse. you have shown yourself to be so immune from logic and so dishonest in your argumentation that you are unengageable. I really don't have time for people who come here and treat honest discussion like the mainstream media does it.

Ignored...

[butterfly77]

13. That's what I have been thinking...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

100. Every day I'm more convinced they're Republican plants. I swear it. nt

[spanone]

14. after all this is the democratic underground...period

[DaDooRonRon]

32. Small "d" or large "D"?

Makes all the difference.

[blondeatlast]

47. It's explained in the Rules that you read before you logged in the first time.

You remember those, don't you?

(Somehow I doubt that you do...)

[DaDooRonRon]

51. Could you please stop?

Unless you feel that all discussion should be censured predicated on pre-approved cheering then I think comments such as yours really do not do much to try and shed light on what is truly happening to both this country and what some (naive) folks believe are two different political parties.

One of the reasons it took me so long to finally join here was my fear that discourse would/is being molded based on one conventional side "winning" rather than being based upon what is good for the progressive community as a whole. I read a variety of different (liberal, progressive, call them what you will) web sites whose rules vary, and I find that those with a free and open exchange are the ones where the most informative data is obtained. I can pat you on the back all day, but where is the value in that?

Let me put it to you in this fashion - if I had my choice of foods to eat, I would choose chocolate cake. Presently, under this administration I and countless others are eating dog shit. Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama come along with the promise of being able to eat leaves and sticks, which although a step up from dog shit is not my choice. They will NEVER allow me to eat chocolate cake, because they are beholden to those folks who grow trees for a living. If I decide I DO want chocolate cake, I must make a decision: do I sit and idly dream about chocolate cake and pretend that either Ms. Clinton or Mr. Obama will let me look at a picture, or do I actively work towards eating said cake, knowing full well that I may have to eat dog shit for a long time, but confident that my fellow citizens will awaken to the fact that they want cake too?

That is the dilemma the progressive side faces, and that is the discussion that needs to take place. If you do not see this, I can only guess that you are either very afraid of this discussion taking place (as it may force you to think outside the "rules" box) or that you really like leaves and sticks. Either choice is not the best for long term health.

Thanks for listening.

[Phillycat]

77. Yeahbut in the meantime, we have lifetime appts to the Supreme Court.

If Roe v Wade is overturned, women will die. I can't in good conscience allow that to happen in my lifetime. Doesn't matter what else I believe (and I do agree with all your points).

[DaDooRonRon]

80. It won't get overturned

It's the winning hand for both parties. They can't let it go, but both parties HAVE to make you believe they are fighting to keep it/remove it. It's too good a red met issue for either party to give up. Remember, Bush could have sent any one of about a hundred cases to the court and he could have easily gotten a fundie dream decision. He didn't, and that should tell you all you need to know.

caveat: If it ever WAS overturned, it would be within a totally fascist system that had had so many civil liberties removed prior to it that a) it wouldn't matter and b) anyone who tried to protest it would be in jail. We are on this course as we speak, and all Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama will do is ask the driver to slow down a bit while they collect their respective spoils for playing along. THAT is what should scare the shit out of us, not whether or not somebody didn't play nice during a debate.

[fascisthunter]

85. Welcome to DU

[lastliberalintexas]

175. They already have the votes to overturn Roe

They just don't want to do it, since Roe is the issue that keeps on giving. In the meantime, every corporatist, anti-worker decision issued by the current court lies at the feet of the DLC "moderate" sellouts who refused to block Alito and Roberts.

I'm glad you're worried about women dying from botched abortions. Too bad the "moderates" weren't quite so worried about that- or men and women dying from unsafe workplaces, for that matter.

[LiberalHeart]

186. Perfectly said. Thank you.

There are Party people, and there are genuine progressives. The thing the Party people miss is that the long-term health of the party depends on keeping the genuine progressives with them. But instead they're doing their best to drive 'em out.

[spanone]

50. both

[DaDooRonRon]

90. Thank you to both

We live in interesting times, don't we?

[EFerrari]

15. Are you saying that people who disagree with you must be Republicans?!

There are a lot of other choices.

In my case, I can vote for my dog and it won't matter because the Democrats always get this area.

Or, I could be a Republican plant.

[lonestarnot]

17. sfp2k Whasup for you. You do not sound like yourself.

[EFerrari]

20. Not sure. Maybe primary burn out.

:shrug:

[lonestarnot]

28. Yes, that will do it.

Please take care. :hug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

101. No. I'm saying that people who take actions to get Republicans elected, are Republicans. nt

[martymar64]

18. I refused to be lectured by a Corporate Democrat

Take your suspicions and shove it. You may vote for the warmongering corporate candidate (hint: both Hill and Obama are the same) but don't lecture me. I've had enough of this Commisar bullshit from those that are supposed to be on our side.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

102. Oooh such a temper! I'll bet my black suede boots if you were old and sick.....

... you would not have such an attitude of ignorance. If you were suffering like the ones that suffer most under fascist Repuke regimes, you would RUN, not walk, to vote for ANY DEMOCRAT.

But you're not old and sick yet. That will take time.

[Individualist]

dupe

and there's no way in hell I'll vote for a DLC candidate.

[Individualist]

244. Hand over those boots. The other poster may not be old and sick, but I AM,

and there's no way in hell I'll vote for a DLC candidate.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

264. I don't understand your reasoning but it reminds me (sadly) of a PBS documentary I saw once....

... a reporter went out "on the street" with the homeless, and there was one very sick homeless man. The reporter asked him how he felt about the government and he said he would never vote for anyone that would offer welfare because deadbeats shouldn't be receiving money that isn't theirs. My jaw dropped open. I guess it's time for me to close it. :( I understand you. I know two very sick elderly people who are diehard Republicans.

I'm sorry you're sick. Wish I could do something to help. :(

[Individualist]

267. Your implication that I'm a republican is bullshit!

I understand you. I know two very sick elderly people who are diehard republicans."

Who the hell are you to label people as "republican" and "ignorant"? You can take your sanctimony and slander and shove them where the sun don't shine, Saint Sarah! If you have this attitude around the elderly and sick, they should report you to the head of the organization you're volunteering for.

So I remind you of a documentary? You remind me of a movie - the one with Nurse Ratched.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

268. Well, do whatever you want. nt

[Individualist]

269. I always do - and I sure as hell don't need your permission.

I'm not susceptible to authoritarian bullshit.

[gravity]

21. They are just being emotional right now

Everyone gets attached to their candidates of choice and when things don't go their way, it is the end of the world. It's part of grief and people will move on.

I bet at least 90% who currently say they aren't going to vote for anyone here will vote for a Dem in November.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

104. If they're intelligent they will! (Unless they really are Republican plants... ) nt

[Perry Logan]

24. Of course this applies mostly to Hillary--which is weird, since she has a perfectly good record.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House :

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israel/index.cfm
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfur

The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

HILLARY'S EXPERIENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE:

Her historic speech at the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 not only galvanized women around the world, it helped spawn a movement that led to advances politically, legally, economically, and socially for women in many countries over the next decade. Among other initiatives, she spearheaded the Clinton Administration's efforts to combat the global crisis of human trafficking. She persuaded the First Ladies of the Americas to use their collective power to eradicate measles and improve girls' education throughout the western Hemisphere. And she is widely credited with helping women in Kuwait finally win the right to vote.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

While American First Ladies historically have made great (and often overlooked) contributions to our nation, Hillary Clinton's wide-ranging experience on international issues as First Lady is unprecedented. Indeed, she is the only First Lady to have delivered foreign policy addresses at major gatherings of the United Nations, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the World Economic Forum.

Hillary Clinton has been fighting for the rights of children for special needs for decades. In her first job out of law school working for the Children's Defense Fund, she conducted research that led to Congress passing the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, the landmark bill mandating that all children with disabilities be educated in the public school system. later, she helped improve the education of children with special needs by working to reauthorize the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. In 2005, she sponsored an amendment to increase funding for the act by $4 billion dollars. She also cosponsored the Personal Excellence for Children with Disabilities Act, a bill that promised to help schools recruit and retain new special education teachers, and better prepare general education teachers and staff to work with children with special needs.

Most recently, she has called for greatly expanded funding to the National Institute for Health to investigate treatments for children with disabilities. And she has put forth a comprehensive and detailed plan to help children and families affected by autism, with numerous elements that correspond very closely to what families in the autism community have been demanding for years.

some points on her legal career:

1969 Truehaft, Walker and Bernstein in Oakland, one of the most liberal law firms in the country. They defended the Panthers.
1970 Yale University - city legal services, provided free legal advice for the poor.
1971 Staff attorney, Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts
1971 Carnegie Council on Children, legal consultant.
1974 Impeachment Inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
1974 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law - One of only two female faculty members.
1976 Worked pro bono on child advocacy.
1978 Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of the Legal Services Corporation.


Education

Wellesley College where she majored in political science.
Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action.

Political Activist Experience

Pragmatic Liberal

Always fascinated by radicalism, she wrote her senior thesis on a great radical organizer of poor people, Saul Alinsky of Chicago. Though when she was offered a job by Alinsky, after she wrote about him, and she turned him down--because she didn't think he was effective enough. She said to her boyfriend at that timebe in politics you have to win. And it didn't look to her like Alinsky was winning enough of his battles. She came to question his methodology and concluded in her thesis that larger government programs and funding were needed, not just community action at the grass roots.

She was the commencement speaker at Wellesley in 1969, chosen by her fellow students--there had never been a student commencement speaker there before. The scheduled speaker was Sen. Edward Brooke of Massachusetts, who Hillary had campaigned for, a Republican, the first black to be a member of the U.S. Senate in a hundred years. In his remarks he was patronizing, Hillary thought. He seemed to defend the Nixon administration's conduct of the war, and didn't mention the wrenching events of 68. When he finished, Hillary got up and extemporaneously excoriated him. As a result of that speech, she was featured in Life magazine as exemplary of this new generation of student leaders. They ran a picture of her in pedal pushers and her Coke-bottle glasses. That article made her well known in the student movement in the U.S.

She monitored the Black Panther trial in New Haven. She monitored the trial to see if there were any abuses of the rights of the Panthers on trial, and helped schedule the monitors. Her reports were turned over to the ACLU.

1971 Senator Walter Mondale's subcommittee on migrant workers, researching migrant problems in housing, sanitation, health and education.

Political Campaign Experience

1964 In high school, volunteered for Republican candidate Barry Goldwater.
1968 New Hampshire, Eugene McCarthy primary challenge to LBJ.
1972 Campaigned in the western states for 1972 Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern
1976 Jimmy Carter Presidential race, served as an Indiana campaign coordinator.

The Clinton Campaigns (Bill Clinton has stated Hillary played pivotal roles in his campaigns)

1974 Bill Clinton's Congressional race (L)
1976 Bill Clinton's Attorney General race (W)
1978 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (W)
1980 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (L)
1982 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (W)
1992 Bill Clinton's Presidential Race (W)
1996 Bill Clinton's Presidential Race (W)
2000 Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign (W)
2006 Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign (W)

Legal Experience

1969 Truehaft, Walker and Bernstein in Oakland, one of the most liberal law firms in the country. They defended the Panthers.
1970 Yale University - city legal services, provided free legal advice for the poor.
1971 Staff attorney, Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts
1971 Carnegie Council on Children, legal consultant.
1974 Impeachment Inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
1974 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law - One of only two female faculty members.
1976 Rose Law Firm. In 1979, she became the first woman to be made a full partner.
1976 Worked pro bono on child advocacy.
1978 Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of the Legal Services Corporation.

She was twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America, in 1988 and in 1991.

First Lady of Arkansas

1979 Chaired the Rural Health Advisory Committee
1979 Introduced the Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.
1982 - 1992 Chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee

She was named Arkansas Woman of the Year in 1983 and Arkansas Mother of the Year in 1984.

Clinton had co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families in 1977.

Served on the boards of the Arkansas Children's Hospital Legal Services (1988-1992)and the Children's Defense Fund (as chair, 1986-1992)

Corporate board of directors of TCBY (1985-1992),Wal-Mart Stores (1986-1992), and Lafarge (1990-1992)

First Lady of the United States of America

"She's very smart ... people rightly give her credit for having been a participant in the Clinton administration and for doing some heavy lifting on issues." Barack Obama, speaking of Hillary Clinton's White House experience and contradicting Obama supporters - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart 8/22/07



When asked about his wife's role in his administration in August of 2000, President Bill Clinton said "She basically had an unprecedented level of activity in her present position over the last eight years.''

1993 First to bring a serious universal healthcare plan to be considered by the US Congress
1997 Helped develop the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997

The First Lady led the effor on the Foster Care Independence bill, to help older, unadopted children transition to adulthood. She also hosted numerous White House conferences that related to children's health, including early childhood development (1997) and school violence (1999). She lent her support to programs ranging from "Prescription for Reading," in which pediatricians provided free books for new mothers to read to their infants as their brains were rapidly developing, to nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses. She also supported an annual drive to encourage older women to seek a mammography to prevent breast cancer, coverage of the cost being provided by Medicare.

Hillary Clinton was the only First Lady to keep an office in the West Wing among those of the president's senior staff. While her familiarity with the intricate political issues and decisions faced by the President, she openly discussed his work with him, yet stated that ultimately she was but one of several individuals he consulted before making a decision. They were known to disagree. Regarding his 1993 passage of welfare reform, the First Lady had reservations about federally supported childcare and Medicaid. When issues that she was working on were under discussion at the morning senior staff meetings, the First Lady often attended. Aides kept her informed of all pending legislation and oftentimes sought her reaction to issues as a way of gauging the President's potential response. Weighing in on his Cabinet appointments and knowing many of the individuals he named, she had working relationships with many of them.

She persuaded Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin to convene a meeting of corporate CEOs for their advice on how companies could be persuaded to adopt better child care measures for working families.

With Attorney General Janet Reno, the First Lady helped to create the Department of Justice's Violence Against Women office. One of her closest Cabinet allies was Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Following her international trips, Hillary Clinton wrote a report of her observations for Albright. A primary effort they shared was globally advocating gender equity in economics, employment, health care and education.

During her trips to Africa (1997), Asia (1995), South America (1995, 1997) and the Central European former Soviet satellite nations (1997, 1998), Hillary Clinton emphasized "a civil society," of human rights as a road to democracy and capitalism.

The First Lady was also one of the few international figures at the time who spoke out against the treatment of Afghani women by Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.

One of the programs she helped create was Vital Voices, a U.S.-sponsored initiative to promote the participation of international women in their nation's political process. One result of the group's meetings, in Northern Ireland, was drawing together women leaders of various political factions that supported the Good Friday peace agreement that brought peace to that nation long at civil war.

Hillary Clinton was also an active supporter of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), often awarding its micro-loans to small enterprises begun by women in developing nations that aided the economic growth in their impoverished communities. Certainly one of her more important speeches as First Lady addressing the need for equal rights for women was international in scope and created controversy in the nation where it was made: the September 1995 United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, China.

Senator From New York

After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Hillary worked with her colleagues to secure the funds New York needed to recover and rebuild. She fought to provide compensation to the families of the victims, grants for hard-hit small businesses, and health care for front line workers at Ground Zero.

She is the first New Yorker ever to serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

She has introduced legislation to tie Congressional salary increases to an increase in the minimum wage.

She helped pass legislation that encouraged investment to create jobs in struggling communities through the Renewal Communities program.

She has championed legislation to bring broadband Internet access to rural America.

She worked to strengthen the Children's Health Insurance Program, which increased coverage for children in low income and working families.

She authored legislation that has been enacted to improve quality and lower the cost of prescription drugs and to protect our food supply from bioterrorism.

She sponsored legislation to increase America's commitment to fighting the global HIV/AIDS crisis.

She's working for expanded use of information technology in the health care system to decrease administrative costs, lower premiums, and reduce medical errors.

She's worked to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, and her legislation to help schools address environmental hazards. She has also proposed expanding access to child care.

She has passed legislation that will bring more qualified teachers into classrooms and more outstanding principals to lead our schools.

Hillary is one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act to increase access to family planning. Her fight with the Bush Administration ensured that Plan B, an emergency contraceptive, will be available to millions of American women and will reduce the need for abortions.

She introduced the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 to ensure better protection of votes and to ensure that every vote is counted.

Senate Armed Services Committee

Subcommittees:

* Airland
* Emerging Threats and Capabilities
* Readiness and Management Support

Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works

Subcommittees:

* Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (Chair)
* Subcommittee Clean Air and Nuclear Safety
* Subcommittee on Transportation and Infrastructure

Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions

Subcommittees:

* Children and Families
* Employment & Workplace Safety
¡The New York Times made it official. The Economy is a problem!
So, now, at last we can discuss it.
Not just discuss it, in rapid order "recession" became the word of the day, from
White House, Congress, the Fed and the media.
It's blamed,mostly, on the subprime crisis.
But that's not the problem. It's a symptom. It is the logical, and probably one
of the necessary results, of Bushenomics.
Along with low, or no, job growth. Little or no business growth. Depressed
wages. And the crashing dollar. (The president has a different vision of the
economy. In his vision it's booming! And the number of jobs is growing!
Though there is this little blip.)
The idea under which Bushenomics was sold is this:
The rich are the investor class.
If the rich have more money, they will invest more.
Their investments will create more business.
Those businesses will create more wealth, thus improving everyone's
lives and making the nation stronger. They will also create new and
better jobs.
Whether or not the people who say such things truly believe them, I cannot
say. But that's their pitch, and the media certainly seems to buy

[Windy]

39. IWR and not backtracking, Kyl/Lieberman Yea and dirty politics... can't do it.

Not unless I am forced to.

I hope to hell it doesn't come to that.

I could have cast my vote happily for any of the other candidates who have been in this race with the exception of Gravel.

Up until Kyl/Lieberman, I may have been able to support Clinton, but after that and with all the Shenanigans on the trail, my moral compass has urged me to look elsewhere.

[Pastiche423]

57. Information dumps do not help your candidate

In fact, they do the opposite.

ABC

[Sarah Ibarruri]

105. Well I'll admit I haven't been the greatest fan of the Clintons......

.... however, the Clintons are GODS compared with any Repugnican.

[mike_c]

27. fair disclosure-- I ALWAYS vote, so not voting is not an option for me....

But I don't always vote for democrats (hint: I have never voted for a republican in my life, so don't go there). And I can certainly understand why many otherwise democratic voters might feel utterly disenfranchised by the current slate of dem candidates. I felt betrayed by the DNC in 2004 so I voted for Cobb, who as a matter of fact represented my political interests far better than John Kerry. The democratic party is letting its base down IMO, and people are angry and frustrated.

This election is a watershed event for me. I might never vote democratic again if HRC is the nominee, and here's why: there has not been another election in my memory in which the dems have such an opportunity to make real change, to elect someone who will bring a real progressive agenda to the nation's leadership. The republicans probably couldn't get Abraham Lincoln elected this time around. Their political fortunes have utterly collapsed under the weight of Bush administration baggage, yet the democratic party will nominate either a corporate tool or a moderate nice guy when all is said and done. I cannot begin to express my disappointment.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

106. I can understand feeling disenfranchised. That's fine. We all feel that sometime.

However, I have never let my emotions come before my logic in something as IMPORTANT as voting. If were ever pissed off and about to make some stupid-ass decision at the polls, like making it easy for a Republican to be elected by voting for some tiny 3rd party (which I cannot imagine ever happening), I think I would go work out a sweat at the gym, then later return to the polls with a bit more sense.

I'm European and I'll be the first to admit the election system in this country is f*cked up in a remarkable way. However, it has been f*cked up since the country was established, so why are people being so whiny about it, as if this were some new revelation or something? More importantly, why are people blaming the Democratic Party, Hillary Clinton, Obama, or whoever, when the truth is that it is the election system ITSELF that is majorly f*cked up and in need of a complete and total overhaul? And then, instead of getting together to sue the media, boycott corporations, protest out on the streets en masse as is done in Europe, what do I see happening? Little groups of whiny people, all stomping their tiny foot a la Scarlett O'Hara, threatening never to vote again. Wow. Such American heroes!

I'd say the whiny ones need to grow some cojones and get out there and do something, not just sit around and whine, or do really stupid things like ensuring another Republican candidate gets 8 years to torture the most needy Americans.

[DaDooRonRon]

30. I suspect you are quite naive in your assumption

Many have finally reached the point of no return and realize that an "opposition" party no longer exists.

P.S. The Supreme Court argument is a red herring, and has been one for quite some time. Both sides need Roe/Wade to bring their "supporters" out. The Supreme Court is (and will continue to be) used for one purpose and one purpose only - to allow the corporation to be granted the same type of rights as a citizen would.

Clinton will not change that, neither will Obama. It would destroy their ability to function as corporate stooges if they did so. Only by making the gullible believe that the Supreme Court is at stake can they get their "side" to buy into their phony "change" platform.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

107. Throw out the baby with the bathwater, eh? That seems quite an excellent solution!

How did anyone ever come up with such a good method of repairing the country?!?! Sheesh.

[DaDooRonRon]

127. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying "lesser of two evils" today - or anytime

Some folks have to hold onto conventional thinking (two parties - one good, one part) because it is easy and justifies the fact that no real work is required to play the game.

Simple research into the money backgrounds of both candidates will show who they are beholden to, and what they will do while in office.

You see, the baby/bathwater premise is completely false, because it demands (as most two party scenarios do) that the player see ONLY two options, and he/she MUST discount any and all other options as not viable in the short term. The kicker here is that the only viable solution is LONG TERM, so the game is rigged.

If the problem with your car is that is keeps blowing up, then the short term solution is to get it running right away. The long term solution is finding out why and making sure it never happens again.

Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama run The Short Term Garage, and if I were you I wouldn't be real confident about driving anywhere.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

139. I'm European but apparently you don't know your own election system.

Let me wake you up. Your election system has been this way since time immemorial. What are you going to do about it? Guarantee that it never change by putting more Repuke fascists into office?

Such an American hero you are!

[scarletwoman]

146. You're "European"? Oh really? How long have you been in the U.S.?

How many U.S. elections have you voted in?

What makes you such an expert in U.S. politics?

sw

[Sarah Ibarruri]

147. Since I was 10. I spend every summer in Europe with family.

I've voted in a few elections. But evidently I am astute enough to realize that your election system has been f*cked up since it began, while you are under the fantastic impression that this corrupt election system is something somehow "new."

[scarletwoman]

164. What the hell are you talking about?

I mean, really! Where the hell did you ever get the nonsensical idea that I am "under the fantastic impression that this corrupt election system is something somehow "new.""

You're just flailing around here making shit up.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

168. This is my last post to you because you obviously are just hell bent on...

... destroying your country because you're angry and planning to do nothing to help your country back to pre-Reagan health. You go right on ahead and bang your head against the wall all you frikkin' want, since that's what you feel is best. It's obvious that no amount of reason will stop you. Give yourself the short-term pleasure of imaginging you're punishing somebody by voting in a way that will guarantee a McCain in the White House.

I can always return to my country one day if things really go to hell here with Repugnicans.

Enjoy.

[scarletwoman]

176. "I can always return to my country one day..."

Well, since you have an easy out, perhaps you might do those of us who intend to live out our lives here the courtesy of allowing us to make our own decisions without posting insults and ridiculous insinuations.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

224. And what are you going to do come Tuesday when Edwards endorses one of the two?

Are you going to kill yourself? Or are you going to be a sensible person and vote for whoever Edwards endorses?

And re what you said. No of course not, you won't give in. You'll kill the elderly and frail, the helpless, etc. for your pleasure by golly! You're going to get your F pleasure one way or another, aren't you? Very nice of you.

[bpeale]

36. who cares what you think? i certainly don't

[still_one]

44. If you don't care, why did you bother to post. It is just a speculation

I don't personally agree with the speculation, but is there a reason to be rude, or is that the way you convience people of your position?

[bpeale]

45. because IT'S BULLSHIT

[still_one]

60. Have a nice day /nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

108. Look, I do care what you think. I'm an Edwards supporter. That should tell you something about me

However, mostly I care what you think because it determines how you vote and what happens to the elderly, the helpless, the hopeless, the suffering, the poor, the disabled, and all those others the GOP loves and adores to hurt. However, what I am NOT is a whiny spineless creature threatening to throw the elections to the Repukes. Cowardly is something that you will never be able to call me or any of those who will be ensuring that no Republicans get elected.

[DaDooRonRon]

130. Quite the contrary

Being afraid to vote for real progressive change no matter what package it comes in is the definition of cowardice.

Clinton or Obama will do nothing to solve the ills of those you profess to want to help, unless you think band-aids for the 6:00 news and flowery speeches will suddenly make all things well.

Please understand that they are bought and paid for ten times over by corporate interests.

Unless, of course, you think that Clinton 'welfare reform" and NAFTA were the first steps in the new compassionate Democratic Party.

Of course they weren't - "welfare reform" was wink wink nod nod to the "some of my best friends are black" crowd, and NAFTA was payback to the boys who put him in The White House. And let's not even go into "don't ask, don't tell", OK?

If you truly believe what Edwards was selling (and judging by your comments I believe you to be quite sincere) then I ask you to think long and hard WHY his message was marginalized by both the media and (most importantly) by the mainstream candidates. Even the mention of corporate reform was enough to make the party worried. Do I think he would have followed through? - of course not. Congress sets that particular agenda, and they'd rather get pins in their eyes than get anywhere near the golden goose. But if you do truly believe, then look to those for whom this is not Campaign Promise #22-A, but instead is a heartfelt concern. If you are afraid to let your heart and mind go there then that is cowardice. If not, then you have left the "rules" behind and are now searching for the truth.

It is sometimes very hard to find. I wish you well in the search.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

138. You must think I'm living under a rock

As if you were telling me for the first time that corporations are the culprits.

Are you for real? Do you really think I don't know that the election system in this country REQUIRES so much money that only those who sell their @$$ to corporations may run for office? You're going to inform me of that? I don't already know that? Please. I know that full well. I'm European and this country's elections are a mess. But here's the thing. Your elections here have ALWAYS been a F mess, but you're acting as if they just turned that way. Please.

As for cowardice, cowardice is the tantrums of being a whiny adult threatening to not vote out of some kind of anger to hurt someone. Well, let me tell you whom you're going to hurt, ok? By not voting or voting in a way that will get a Repuke into the White House again, you're going to hurt the poor, the homeless, the working poor, the ill, the disabled, the elderly on a fixed income, the jobless, children in poverty, and many more. Of course, you go ahead and throw your tantrum and get a Repuke into office. And you go ahead and feel good about that. And when you are, remember that you did it to feel some sort of vengeful pleasure because Edwards could not be president. I'm sure Edwards will be sooooooo totally proud of you! (NOT!)

[DaDooRonRon]

208. I have this vision of you holding your breath and turning blue

You've heard of the saying that a journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step?

Oh, and stop with the "putting Repubs in office" argument - it's quite lame and it really holds no sway to those of who have stayed loyal for years, only to find out we are putting CORPORATISTS in office. Try and wrap yourself around that word for a while.

Vengeful pleasure??? I think you need to relax a bit, and I really don't care if John Edwards is proud of me or not. Is there a point system for loyalty that I missed?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

221. One step into the Republican Party? The only journeys that start that way are those of GOPers nt

[DaDooRonRon]

241. Oh good grief

Suffragette.

Civil rights.

Just to name two.

You're just sounding silly now, and I am not quite sure what your purpose is anymore, so I will just leave you be in hopes that you will figure it all out in due time.

Good luck.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

245. I'm sorry. I'm just really depressed and pissed off....

I have worked with the elderly poor on a volunteer basis for years, and they've never been worse since this president. They're REALLY suffering! I have seen elderly poor DIE because they had no access to medication. Sure, they write that it was due to this disease or that, but I've seen the progression: no good food, no health care, constant constant constant stress from not being able to pay what is needed. My GOD they've NEVER been worse! I'm out there seeing this shit. I'm angry and I have no patience with people willing to throw their vote away and thereby help a Republican president finish off more of these people. It's not fair. It's horrific. It shows a clear disregard for the suffering.

[still_one]

42. I disagree. Even I said that under the emotional heat going on here

but when I sat down and thought about it logically, reality kicked in

I have already voted yesterday by absentee ballot for Obama in the California primary

and will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is in the general election

You are speaking logically, and that does not always apply when dealing with humans, or walking cats

[marlakay]

46. Because they are hurt, let them say it

i said it the first few weeks after I realized Gore wasn't going to run. Give people time to heal. No one can be forced through a grieving process it doesn't work that way and you sure as hell can't demand someone to come to your way of thinking then, that pisses them off.

Anyone who wanted my vote made me angry for a long time. I finally calmed down but it took time. The only unfortunate thing is with so many elections in the next few weeks there is no time.

Hopefully even a few days will help but you have to just accept that because of the lack of time some people will stay home and not vote. Don't be angry at them, right now they feel sucker punched and probably don't give a shit if the whole country dissolves into a pile of goo...

Give them time....by november most will vote dem.

[LibDemAlways]

49. I am going to state unequivocally that come November I

will vote for the Dem nominee. However, it will be with nose firmly held and the knowledge that little, if anything, is going to be done to correct the many horrors perpetrated on this country by the Bush Crime Family even if (and it's a BIG if) the Dem somehow wins.

And there's something more than a little smarmy about the way some posters are referring to Edwards' supporters on this thread.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

109. LOL! Me too! I think those of us who need to hold our noses as we vote, let's do so!

However, let's not let the Repukes get back in OUR White House.

[leftofthedial]

54. vote for ideas

not for corporations.

[blues90]

55. I suspect there are repub plants in many places

Even people who call into liberal radio shows .

I can assure you I am not a plant or repug .

I just can't vote for anyone who does not support my views , not this time . Yes perhaps a Dem of any flavor is better than another repuk but who knows , I can't tell now with the two left in the running .

I can't see us ever getting real and fair elections ever again , this fix is so refined that we are guessing now days and hoping .

also you have to consider these black box abominations and where Rove may be and what he and his crew have been up to .

I was looking for Kucinich or Edwards now their out .

[Sarah Ibarruri]

110. No doubt there are GOP plants everywhere. They're like borgs....

Remember them?

... "We are ONE. We are the BORG. Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and surrender your vessel. We will add your biological and technical distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us...."

That's what the dittohead GOP is like.

I was an Edwards supporter. However, I do volunteer work with the elderly. The elderly always suffers under Repuke administrations. Please do not vote in a way that will help Republicans in any way, even if it gives you a tinge of some kind of vengeful satisfaction.

[DaDooRonRon]

209. re: "That's what the dittohead GOP is like"

"I am going to state unequivocally that come November I will vote for the Dem nominee"

"LOL! Me too! I think those of us who need to hold our noses as we vote, let's do so! However, let's not let the Repukes get back in OUR White House"

Ruh-roh. Hope there aren't any mirrors close by. It's never pleasant to see a reflection of one's foot in one's own mouth.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

222. To save the poor elderly that I volunteer with? Then thank you. However, you could guarantee the

BORGS get back in. Your choice isn't it?

[Robbien]

62. Well, I've been here for a very very long time

and consider myself a socialist tree hugger down to the very core of my soul

My primary is Feb 5th and I'm only planning on voting for local elections keeping the Presidential Election field blank.

Same goes for November.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

111. Thanks for helping the Republicans. Next? nt

[readmoreoften]

118. Thanks for destroying the party by allowing to move to the center.

With appeasers and apologists like you, we'll stand for nothing at all by 2016.

[burythehatchet]

124. nicely stated, thanks.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

140. You are really ignorant about your own election system....

... and obviously you are under the impression that by putting in more Repukes, you are somehow, magically, by waving some magic wand, going to change your election system which has been around since this country was established.

Absence of logic.

[Djinn]

188. and you're either ignorant

of the imperial history of the US (every bit as brutal and bloody under Democrats) or you don't give a shit about those dying for your standard of living.

Think that's a real stretch given I don't know anything about you...yes it is, have a think about it

[readmoreoften]

191. I know that if they lose our votes en masse they start to pay attention.

Or they'll get better at stealing elections. Either way, there's no reason to vote for Reagan Democrat.

If you don't figure out where your line is, they're going to keep crossing.

If you haven't noticed, this isn't the election system that's been around since this country was established. 24/7 digital disinfotainment was not an election issue when the nation was founded. Neither was black box voting. They also had the Whigs and the Know-Nothings. The Republicans were the "single issue" 3rd party in the eternal two party system Dems -vs- Whigs. They ran on an anti-slavery platform and won the conscience of the people. That was only 140 years ago. Modern history compared to other nations.

So, no, the system is nothing like it was at the onset. It used to have viable third parties (heck, the Socialist Party did fairly well in the 30s). Election fraud was limited to stuffing ballot boxes and much harder to get away with. Large corporations didn't pipe non-stop misinformation about candidates to sway elections. In fact, there were no large corporations yet. Or corporate personhood. "Under God" wasn't in the pledge of allegiance.

And, frankly, I don't think people would've put up with this crap for a second.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

220. So you're willing to sacrifice the elderly people I volunteer with for your pleasure nt

[Djinn]

277. why not

you're apparently willing to see foreigners murdered and exploited as long as it happens under a Democrat - why should anyone take your attempt at moral superiority seriously?

[Robbien]

133. Thanks for helping defeat progressivism and helping corporate robber barons.

Just call the Democratic Party the party of corporate lobbiests and robber barons.

You go out and vote for them. I will not.

Next Indeed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

142. OH! Let me see if I understand you! YOU are going to fix it by ensuring more GOPers in the govt...

.. while I am the culprit because I INVENTED the election system your country has.

Ha! And all along I thought the election system was f*cked up since the beginning of this country. I guess the election system must've started just a few years ago, huh?

[Robbien]

159. You may vote for whomever you want

but to spew venom at those of us who chose not to vote for corporate lobbiests and robber barons is just beneath contempt.

I choose not to vote for NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems or whatever the current buzzword they are using.

You called me a GOPer supporter because I stick to my progressive beliefs. Well, I call you a NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems supporter. And everyone is fully aware NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems will go to any lengths to not give an inch to progressive ideas.

NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems fight Progressives even more rabidly than GOPers do.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

162. I'm merely saying that anyone who takes action to get another Repuke in the White House....

IS a Repuke.

[Robbien]

167. I'm merely saything that anyone who takes action to get a NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems

IS a NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems

and hello robber barons and good bye middle class.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

169. And you're going to fix it? How? nt

[Robbien]

174. You certainly are hurting the system by wholeheartedly supporting NewDems/DLC/BlueDogs/BushDems

Thanks for helping kill safety nets and transferring wealth from the middle classes to the global elites.

Keep crawling to the Democratic party and saying "I will vote for you no matter what. You can do anything you like, I will vote for you. You want to privatize social security, privatize everything and remove every single safety net? Well I don't like that but you are Democrats and I will vote for you no matter how much you shit on me."

I say no.

But you go on and keep tell them yes.

Practice your bending over. But hey, you are pretty good at it already.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

201. I asked you how you're fixing it by ensuring that Republicans get into the White House again. nt

[Robbien]

215. YOU are the one insuring GOPers have a chance at the WH. Not me.

Your unwavering support for Bush Dogs insures that voters have no options. They can vote for robber barons with either a D after their name or an R after their name.

YOU are the one responsible here. I blame YOU. You and your kissass behavior towards these BushDogs.

So your question to me has a faulty premise and is unanswerable. Your question blames me for the results caused by YOUR craven actions.

I will not vote for someone whose entire goal is to make the world a bad place for me and the people in my life. But YOU will, as long as they have a D after their name.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

219. Oh yeah, and the Naderites helped the country through putting us thru bush 8 years. nt

[Robbien]

223. Keep projecting the blame for the results of your actions onto others

And you keep getting the same response from me.

YOU will vote for a D no matter what.

YOU are to blame.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

225. Nah, let's just pretend Nader didn't take GOP money, didn't help elect the GOP, and sing....

..Kumbaya with them. Yeah that's it!

[Robbien]

227. Congratulations

You have just joined the list of BushDog supporters on my ignore list.

You go there because I blame you and the other GOPers there who pretend to be Democrats but push GOPer policies and politians.

Have fun playing with the others of your right winger kind.

And again I blame YOU.

End of message.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

235. Oh? You blame ME for you ensuring the next pres will be a Repuke? Well isn't that a good trick!

Amazing! Did you study to be a magician? I'd keep my day job if I were you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

247. Not so fast.

Here's the calculus: Is it better to elect a status quo democrat or a status quo Republican? Which choice is more likely to yield progressive leadership in 2012 or 2016?

Is the short term marginal difference between our last two people to be voted off the island and McCain really that significant?

Those who believe that Hillary (or Obama) is inadequately progressive can read a calendar. If we win, we won't get (good) change before 2016, probably 2020.

It comes down to:
1) supreme court appointments
2) a president who might sign progressive legislation (assuming that we can elect progressives to congress - an outcome which is easy to describe as less likely)

I'm sorry to say, but if Edwards withdrew to help the party, I think it was misguided.

[AlertLurker]

75. Not plants...Many here are just good ol' Doom n' Gloomers...

So - what exactly has your vote done for you in the last two presidential cycles?

It seems patently obvious that as long as the USA has Republican-controlled corporations in charge of counting the ballots (or Republican-appointed judges in charge of NOT counting them), the USA will have Republican presidents.

Barring a HUGE and UNMISTAKEABLE Democratic lead vs. 'Pubs in polling, the outcome seems self-evident.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

112. Wow, are you a polling organization? And why is yours better than any other?

And why, if you're in Canada, are you being pessimistic for us here?

[AlertLurker]

210. No, I am not.

Who is selected for President of the USA is tremendously important to Canada and Canadians.

You remember, us, right? The poor ba$tards you share the world's longest border with? When the USA sneezes, Canadians get pneumonia.

Just for the record, I am not pessimistic regarding the Primaries and GE. I am ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED.

[fascisthunter]

81. nope....

but that's the meme

[burythehatchet]

84. Labeling people by inference is an extremely dubious exercise.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

113. Labelling? I'm saying there are REPUBLICAN PLANTS in here. I'm not sitting around joking

I'm saying there are REPUBLICAN PLANTS in here talking a lot of shit, being demoralizing, and claiming they're angry with everything and therefore they're going to throw a huge tantrum and let the Republicans win. That is what I'm saying. Save the "labelling" for a sociology class.

[burythehatchet]

121. shur thing

[Sarah Ibarruri]

125. Okay, so because you don't believe it, it doesn't exist.

:o

[burythehatchet]

134. I think a fair number of resplies speak well on my behalf.

With you overly broad generalization you label some of the most committed lifelong Democrats as Republican plants. It simply shows a lack of intellectual maturity.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

144. I'm an Edwards supporter and I guarantee you he would be EMBARRASSED....

at the whiny, spineless people who are stomping their tiny foot and pouting that they're going to let in another Repuke into the White House because "HE" isn't going to be the nominee.

[scarletwoman]

135. Okay, because you DO believe it, it must be true. Right?

Maybe you should try to come up with a better rebuttal?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

145. My rebuttal is that you're going to vote in a Republican, and hopefully they will do right by you

And may you never be one of the helpless who will die because you're about to put another Repuke pig into the White House

[scarletwoman]

160. Oh for gawdsakes! I'm not going to vote for any Republican.

I'm 58 years old, I've voted in every damn election since 1972, and I've NEVER voted for a Republican in my entire life.

Do you honestly believe that "the helpless" don't die under Dem administrations? Tell that to the Vietnamese.

Or, if they don't count -- not being Americans, and all -- then how about taking a moment to recall under whose presidency "Welfare Reform" was enacted? Or NAFTA.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

163. You must've been comatose during the years of Clinton when he was impeached by a nation...

.. that was right wing from the F*****G bottom to the F******G top. There was nothing that wasn't right wing during those years. I don't know where the heck YOU were but I recall those years damned well and everything, EVERYTHING was populated by Repugnicans. They controllled it all. Don't reinvent history to suit your tantrums.

[scarletwoman]

172. I've actually lived through quite a bit of modern history.

Many more years than you, I suspect. And have been quite awake and aware since the JFK assassination, which occurred when I was 14.

Your hectoring and insults mean exactly zip to me. Nada. Rien.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. A rather well known Democrat disagrees with you.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[FlyingSquirrel]

98. Actually, as far as I can tell all plants are non-partisan.

Although perhaps I am just reading them wrong. I could see venus flytraps being Republican, I suppose.

[bobbolink]

126. .

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I have it on good authority that Stinging Nettles are pure Rovian...

:hi: :hug:

[scarletwoman]

132. I'm more of a Green plant:

[Gloria]

103. I'm no Republican plant.....

[bobbolink]

117. That's me, a Republican plant.

Wanna say that to my face, so I can alert on you?

Get over yourself.

[burythehatchet]

123. YOU !! YOU ARE A PLANT!!!1111oneoneone!!!

[Djinn]

119. easy to demolish that "argument"

Some of us have a grasp of history and are aware of US imperial aggression going back at least several decades (though I go back to Monroe Doctrine) occuring just as often under a Democrat admin.

I keep asking this question and while it gets a lot of abuse it has never ONCE received an answer from a Dem partisan:

Faced with the gouging of the US economy as a result of Iraqi oil being traded in Euro's, what would a Democrat President have done to prevent it?

The answer is, exactly the same as the Republicans did. They probably wouldn't have contracted so much of it out and the awarding of contracts may have been a smidge more accountable but to claim it wouldn't have happened at all betrays an enormous misunderstanding of geopolitical history.

[Solon]

120. What you say is true, and the Partisans will never see it...

They have Party Blinders on, plain and simple. I'm not sure if they deserve our sympathy or our contempt.

[readmoreoften]

192. I'm beginning to believe the latter. You can only play stupid for so long.

Especially when all the information is at your fingertips.

[bobbolink]

252. "Good Germans" all over again. Each generation has to do it, I suppose.

:cry:

[scarletwoman]

129. "Republican plants"? What an absurd and ridiculous assertion!

You can't comprehend why someone might not see things the same way you do, so you assume they must be "republican plants"?

That's either paranoia or shallow thinking.

On the other hand, maybe I'd only say such a thing because I'm a "republican plant".

Pffft.

sw

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. I can vouch for scarletwoman

She was an avid Kucinich supporter in 2004 and a Wellstone supporter before that.

[EFerrari]

181. I think you both may be on the HuKKKabee payroll.

:rofl:

[scarletwoman]

187. I suppose being accused of being a "republican plant" at least injects a bit a variety into the

invective and marginalization. Something new and fresh after all the years of being called a "commie pinko" and "far left fringe".

}(
sw

[EFerrari]

190. Unicorn! Pine needle basket! Carburetor!

:hug:

:toast:

[lumberjack_jeff]

254. Kind of a tourette's free-association (Hamster!) thing going on there

Thanks for the chuckle. :hi:

[EFerrari]

255. Just trying to liven up the marginalizing with new categories.

lol

:)

[scarletwoman]

281. Kumquat! Haberdasher! Adjustable Rate Mortgage!

Switchgrass! Mars!

Am I getting the hang of it?

:D

[DaDooRonRon]

131. Hey, I'm no Republican plant!

I'm a child of the 60's, ergo I am a Potted Plant.

So there.

[DainBramaged]

150. I agree, 100%

[Sarah Ibarruri]

154. Thanks! nt

[lastliberalintexas]

158. The Courts are already gone

I guess only people in the legal profession understand just how conservative the courts really are. The SC was lost thanks to the Gang of 14. Roberts and Alito are both fairly young and relatively healthy, they're with us for some time to come. The conservatives have the votes on any issue they need, and there is already nothing we can do about it.


Additionally, let me say that it matters not one iota whether I vote at all or for whom. I LIVE IN TEXAS. I can and will vote for whomever I darn well please, and it won't matter because the republicans will get my state's electoral votes. How that translates to me voting to harm the least among us is beyond me.

[onenote]

273. and how is eight more years of repub nominated judges going to change it

When Ruth Ginsburg leaves the court,who would you rather name her replacement: A Democrat (including, possibly, the wife of the Democrat that named Ginsburg to the court in the first place) or a repub, possibly one who voted for Clarence Thomas?

Is this really that hard to understand?

[NoodleyAppendage]

177. No. I'm just a Dem who is sick and tired of compromising my ideals to vote for DINOs.

I've come to the conclusion that the only way to return our party to its populist ideals is to weed out the tendency to compromise for DINO/DLC pro-corporatists. J

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

198. Amen.

[Norwood]

189. Oh darn it you figured us out!!!!!

Its not that we don't like being force fed candidates that are gradually moving the only viable party in this country to the right. The reason we might be putting our foot down is because we're Republican plants, damn I can't believe you figured us out!!!

:sarcasm:

:tinfoilhat:
Step away from the computer, turn off the TV and evaluate your reality. The people here who have decided they wont vote for Clinton in the general or at least entertaining the thought are not Republicans. Nothing is going to change until we finally put our foot down at some point and say enough is enough. We're gonna keep on getting these Republican lite, DLC candidates if we don't because they know there won't be any consequences ignoring the progressive wing of the party.

I myself haven't decided what I'm going to do if Hillary gets the nomination. If I had to choose today, I wouldn't vote for her in the general.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

230. I figured out you're Repuke plants? Or that you're senseless, egotistical do-nothings

who are angry and want the most helpless of the helpless in this country to REALLY REALLY hurt? Which one is it going to be? Hmm?

[Djinn]

278. I figured out

that you're a simpleton who responds to detailed questions and lengthy analysis with "I'm right and you're all stoopid"

[NuttyFluffers]

194. well, i have been known to refer to myself as an aubergine first, republican second.

but i always found my eggplant status more important than being a member of the GOP... more fringe benefits.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

231. ROFL! Okay at least you gave me a laugh. I needed it nt

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

197. So this is what its come down too....

Anyone that doesn't follow the 'party line' is labeled a republican plant? What is this shit? I'd expect that from Republicans, but not from self proclaimed democrats.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

232. No, actually, it comes down to people being either GOP plants or incredibly idiotic and willing

to hurt the most helpless folks of the U.S.

[cgrindley]

199. No, they're not plants... they're wicked immature crybabies (nt)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

229. You might be right. Either Repuke plants or the most immature whining whackos ever nt

[countryjake]

200. You can't fathom that? You have alot of life (and elections) yet to experience...

which, hopefully, might improve your understanding.

Withholding my presidential vote is only one, very small way in which I move to end fascist control in this nation.

I have no illusions about this system we live under and, til I am dead, I will be active to change that system.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

234. Given that I've heard enough from either Repuke plants or ignorants, I think these have given

me quite an education: that a huge percentage of the population of this country is immature, egocentric and willing to sacrifice the most helpless and suffering Americans for their own whacko, slightly sociopathic pleasure.

[countryjake]

236. A fox smells his own hole.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

238. Speak for yourself. nt

[countryjake]

240. I just did, my dear.

Whatever you wish to gain by attacking the progressives who participate on this board, has failed, miserably.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

204. Sorry, but I'm almost certain that I am far more liberal and true Democrat than most.

Although, if there was a strong socialist party I would fit better there. I have voted a straight Democratic Party ticket since JFK but I will no longer support the corporate control of our party and country. The Supreme Court is already lost thanks to our party's corporate controlled leadership. Nothing that is going to happen as a result of this election will change anything. I've been called a lot of things but never a puke party plant by anyone that knows my politics. I am to the point that I accept the fact that there is nothing I can do about the course of this country under complete corporate domination. I have to quit posting here since I can no longer support the pseudo-Democratic Party that has emerged but don't challenge the validity or depth of disgust by many real Democrats because you will be very disappointed the results in November. Fuck the ruling class.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

237. I'm a socialist as well, my friend. But I volunteer with the elderly poor and I'm seeing up close

and personal every weekend how much the elderly poor are suffering since Bush. They weren't exactly rich during Clinton, but now they've reached rock bottom. They have no money, they have no resources, they have to pay for meds through the nose and have no money left for ANYTHING!!!! Things have gotten HORRIFIC since Bush! I volunteer for these people, so sometimes I'll pay for some med or another, but I can't afford to pay meds for all of them. I'm not a rich woman and I'm only one person.

[Djinn]

279. that's hilarious

you call yourself a socialist and vote Democrat!! :rofl:

[Snarkturian Clone]

207. That's a lot of republican plants then.

I think they're just bluffing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

243. I no longer intend to participate in my state's caucus.

I will, however vote for whichever candidate is able to stumble away from the wreckage of y'alls bonfire of the vanities.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

253. Because

Letting the dems mover closer to being like the GOP might be slightly better for the next 4 years but it will be far worse for our grandkids...

Sometime you have to stop giving an inch per election cycle..

[EFerrari]

256. I agree but was also thinking that the Democrats are being extra cautious

(if that's possible, lol) because getting back into real power is so close. They have the best shot they've had in years.

I don't like it and I don't agree with it but, that may be how it seems to the DLCers.

[SammyWinstonJack]

257. First we were called "alleged" Democrats and now we are republican plants?

Call me whatever you like, I don't care. Name calling and guilt trips are not going to make me jump on the status quo/Hope and Change bandwagon, either.

[CANDO]

266. We are to be browbeaten into submission!

We are not autonomous beings. We must vote for party above country. I am so god damned sick of the CLINTONS, BUSHES and their LEMMINGS who can't envision reality beyond these families. JEB is on the horizon! Who's after that, Chelsea?

[EndElectoral]

280. I choose to vote for someone who represents me, rather than the corporate candidates

[varelse]

283. I know of several people who will not be voting in November

Every one of them gives me the same answer - roughly paraphrased it goes like this: "it won't make any difference, there is no one good who can possibly run and win, and I won't waste my time". Not ONE of them is a conservative or a moderate of voting age. They're all people with progressive views, and none of them seem inclined to rise up from the pit of cynicism and despair they've fallen into. They are Independents, Green or Peace & Freedom party members, or even anarchists (yeah, I actually know one of those - nice guy, too).

For this reason, I'm inclined to believe that people posting this here, may really be progressives who are either too angry or too disheartened to exercise their vote, rather than republican plants aiming to disrupt the forum and discourage Democratic voters.

[long_green]

285. I'm a disenchanted liberal who has serious reservations about ...

voting for the Democratic nominee this year. I will, however, sure as hell vote. No disenchanted registered progressive voter should miss the chance to vote for the true progressive option on the Presidential ballot in November. By no means is it throwing away your vote. Let enough pissed off people vote WHILE DENYING their support to the current leadership of the Democratic party and someone just might get the message. They may be Democrats or it may be the leadership of a real Peoples' Party.

P.S. If I were a plant, I'd be a soft, wet fern.