A Secession Plan Is Floated for New York City (can you blame them?)

[LynneSin]

http://www.nysun.com/article/70397

A Secession Plan Is Floated for New York City
By BENJAMIN SARLIN
Special to the Sun
January 30, 2008


Emboldened by Mayor Bloomberg's testimony in Albany this week that the city's taxpayers pay the state $11 billion a year more than they get back, a City Council member is offering legislation that would begin the process of having New York City secede from New York State.

Peter Vallone Jr., a Democrat who represents Queens, is pushing the idea, and the Council plans to hold a hearing on the possibility of making New York City the 51st state.

"I think secession's time has definitely come again," Mr. Vallone, who spearheaded a similar push in 2003, told The New York Sun yesterday. "If not secession, somebody please tell me what other options we have if the state is going to continue to take billions from us and give us back pennies. Should we raise taxes some more? Should we cut services some more? Or should we consider seriously going out on our own?"

During a visit to Albany this week, Mr. Bloomberg called on lawmakers to give the city its "fair share" of tax revenue and said that the state took in $11 billion more from New York City than was returned in the state budget. Mr. Vallone says that the state's demands on the city in worsening economic times now make it necessary to dissolve the political bands, which have connected them

BTW, I can't blame them. I few years ago a study was done that show that BLUE states were paying way more in taxes than receiving them and yet the red states were paying far less but receiving way more. It was almost like Red States were the 'Welfare States' so to say.

I'm sure NYC could put to good use $11billion dollars. Hell, even with just half of that, it could be put to good use. Personally if NYC sets out on it's own it should become like Hong Kong, a city within the country of China that pretty much has it's own independant government/economy.

[Tesha]

1. It'll *NEVER* happen because they'd vote for two more *DEMOCRATIC* Senators.

It'll *NEVER* happen because they'd vote for two more
*DEMOCRATIC* Senators and cast two more Democratic
votes in the Electoral College.

Tesha

[MADem]

5. Interesting point....but maybe not. I thought upstate was rather GOP.

It's just the preponderance of Democrats in and around the City overwhelm them...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

32. Well, you would be suprised

In terms of the EC it would not add democratic votes but subtract. Upstate outside of Buffalo, Ithica, and Albany (maybe the cuse) are dark *dark* red... You would be adding *at least* one GOP senator probably two (to nullify two dem senators from down state) and split the EC which have gone to every dem presidential candidate for 16 years) and give a little less than half of them to the GOP.

[phantom power]

2. Speaking as a western NY-er, we wouldn't mind if NYC seceded either.

I should make clear, I say that not out of any displeasure with NYC. It's mostly just that their issues are completely different than most of the rest of "upstate" NY. From my point of view, it would simply be a pragmatic move.

[cyclezealot]

6. Don't think its 100% sure upstate NY would be automatically Democratic?

Upstate has some pretty Republican areas; in spite of the fact foreign trade deals has made Rochester, Syracuse, Utica look pretty Third World? New Yorkers say, New York and New York City /State would both always be Democratic?

[phantom power]

12. I agree, upstate NY would almost certainly vote republican.

[LynneSin]

9. unfortunately that is symptomatic of this entire country

I have people in Alabama, Nebraska, Texas etc that are forcing their red-state ideologies on my blue state of Delaware. BTW, you can substitute Delaware with any state heading up into New England). Sometimes I see the US today paralleling the USSR right before it broke-up into multiple nations. Not so much as the political ideology of Communism but the fact that each of these new countries had different ways of how they wanted to be ruled which differed from what the USSR government was doing.

I honest can see this country breaking into regional mini-countries with each region having it's own government. I think I would trust a federal government more if it was a government elected by people with same regional concerns as my state has. And let's face it - there are people who want a 'God-Based' country with God written into the constitution - why shouldn't they have it? Let them form their own region.

[Tesha]

24. I mention this book often on DU: "The Nine Nations of North America"

I mention this book often on DU: "The Nine Nations of North America"
by Joel Garreau.

o http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations_of_North_America

In it, he describes exactly this situation.



Tesha

[LynneSin]

27. Why the fuck do I have to have DETROIT as my capital

:cry:

And I would think that part of Nevada, that which includes Las Vegas, would be wrapped in somewhere

[cyclezealot]

37. because thw whole region from Albany

to Milwaukee is foundry. No longer needed. In the process of closing down. What better symbol of North American industrial might than Detorit. It could equally be Akron, Cleveland, or Buffalo . Makes no difference. Just Detroit is in the middle of this rust belt .

[NuttyFluffers]

30. no fair! Ecotopia demands to get Hawaii and the Pacific Island protectorates!

oh, and we want Lake Tahoe and surrounding natural beauty and reservoirs. the central valley... well we can go into negotiations, start solar communes, and "re-education camps."

mmmm, paradise....

[KamaAina]

31. As I recall, Garreau treated Hawai'i as an "Aberration"

along with Alaska(?), Washington, D.C., and (drum roll, please...) NYC.

edit: not sure about Alaska

[RuleOfNah]

39. Puzzle pieces.

Los Angeles is Texas? Las Vegas is Empty?

[Tesha]

41. Sure...

> Los Angeles is Texas?

The point is that in both places, Hispanic culture dominates.


> Las Vegas is Empty?

Yes. Aside from the tourist-trap aspect, Las Vegas is nothing
sitting in the middle of nowhere. When the water runs out, it
will dry up and blow away. In the Empty Quarter, if you don't
have minerals or energy resources, you have nothing.

Tesha

[SteelPenguin]

3. It's like that in every state though

The major cities in a state will pay out more than they get in. Everywhere.

Cities like New York City can't exist without a support system in place. Yes, taxes gathered in New York City were used to repair roads near Cuba, NY, but the New Yorkers get their Cheddar Cheese. The rural areas in states are there to support an urban existence. That's why Central Park isn't a full fledged farm.

Cities are tied to their rural areas, and it's as it should be that the cities, which centralize the wealth of a region, should support the outlying areas which exist to support them. Money spent on bridges in Upstate New York which are used by trucks delivering goods and services to the city shouldn't be considered money leaving the city.

It's just absurd, imho.

[TooBigaTent]

17. You are making a false comparison. Money from NYC is taken by the state

government and used to subsidize things outside the city.

The state does not take dollars in taxes and provide that cheese to NYC. New Yorkers buy the damn cheese.

[SteelPenguin]

23. But those taxes build the roads

They build the bridges and roads in upstate new york. They procure the land and the support of the aquaduct and other methods of providing water, electricty, gas, you name it, to the city.

New York City is subsidizing the infrastructure of upstate new york. As well as education and other social services, that makes it easier for those dairy farmers to make their cheese and get it to market.

Remember Rural Electrification? Well, maybe not personally, but remember reading about it? The only reason rural areas actually have a vast majority of services is that it was subsidized by the government. Even private companies are often rquired to cover a certain percentage of areas with service such as cable television.

You want cheese? Well that dairy farmer wants electricity, paved roads, and a decent modern school for his kids, but his taxes can't support that.

[SteelPenguin]

26. Let me give another example

One topic of tax argument here in PA is interestate 80. It's one of the most highly trafficed highways by tractor trailers in the country, and most of that traffic doesn't even pause in the state. It's east west traffic heading to or from New York City.

Part of my taxes right now pays for the upkeep of that road and the ancillary roads. There's talk of making it a toll road. That traffic destroys that road and it needs constant rebuilding and maintenance. I'm paying taxes, here in Pittsburgh..not even New York State, to support a city the size of New York. It's the same thing with upstate.

A city the size of New York has a very big footprint and they should have more money leaving that city to support themselves than comes back in.

[MADem]

4. I always wondered how California stayed together--it's really three states, when you look at it

A ways back, they grumbled about seceding from the US, but I haven't heard that one lately. They're something like the sixth largest economy in the WORLD...

Now, if NYC did this, what would they call themselves? The state of New York City doesn't resonate too well...New Amsterdam, maybe? And then, there's that whole "NEW YORK CITY" brand they've got working. Hmmmm.

[lurky]

20. California can't split...

They could never agree on which piece has to take Schwarzenegger. :P

[MADem]

25. The battle between LA and Sacramento would be EPIC! nt

[lurky]

28. Yeah, over who has to take Schwarzenegger...

"He's your governor!" "No way, he's yours!" :P

[TooBigaTent]

7. The possible fragmentation of the US into smaller, more manageable units, is

something I wholly support. The country, as now configured, is just too big to continue as a democracy (or republic for that matter). Economies of scale are more than negated by the bureaucracy created to control the monster.

Countries do not last forever in their original configuration. This could be the start of an evolution to a better future.

[cyclezealot]

8. Seven Texas' No thanks.

[LynneSin]

13. I totally see your point

There are just so many devisive ideas out there that makes it impossible for the Federal Government to make everyone happen. The founding fathers favored expansion but did they ever have any idea of how big this country could one day grow.

I don't think the US would be a lesser of a place by disbanding the Federal government in favor of regional governments. The only downside I could see is as followed:

1.) People being stuck in regions where perhaps the government is not to their liking. A perfect example is if your new region opted to put God into their constition (or totally wipe any reference out). One might be very unhappy. I think there should be some sort of 'swap setup' that would allow people to move between the regions if they find their current one intolerable to their beliefs.

2.) Regional Governments could go where perhaps they should go, bringing about Human and Environmental abuses. Alaska along with many of our western state federal parks are protected mainly by democrats in this country who want to prevent global warming and preserve land & endangered species. What would happen to the Arctic Refuse if the Federal Government ceased to exist and that decision was given to the likes of people like Ted Stevens? What kind of labor laws would occur if a region opted to abandon laws regarding minimum wages, child labor, unions, OSHA and other laws meant to protect workers.

Those are just a few of my concerns

[originalpckelly]

21. We need a federal government that ensures the regularity of justice in all 50 states.

It should make sure that there is a uniformity of basic human rights. Beyond that, however, most of these policies are better formed at state, county, and municipal levels of government.

I think that maybe there should be a house of governors, to replace the federal government's monolithic executive. One person cannot be responsible for a government of 2,000,000 people. We should first cut most agencies from the federal government, and let them be replaced by state, county, and municipal agencies. The closer government is to the people, the more say they have in it, simply because of math. I'm only 1/300,000,000 in the federal government. On the other hand, in my city I'm 1/500,000 that's almost 3 orders of magnitude in difference in my significance in either government. I think that power should even be divested away from big city governments, to neighborhoods. I'd much rather be 1/500 than 1/500,000.

Plus, people are more likely to tend to their own concerns, rather than someone else's. If I go to a local park each week, I will tend to care more about that local park than one on the other side of the city where I've never been before.

It doesn't mean that park should only be available to the people in that neighborhood, but it does mean that the neighborhood should in charge of looking after it.

I think the idea that someone/people I've never met should have more control over my life than I do is insane. I think many other people do as well.

We're dealing with the mathematics of the game, it's impossible for many of these government officials to know the needs of most Americans. They cannot meet them, it's mathematically impossible for one person to meet and know 300,000,000 people.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. Anything that moves us toward the end of the nation state

is A-OK in my book!

OK, most things...:-)

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. Perhaps but there is no good way to break it up

We are a *very* purple nation...

[Jim__]

10. Norman Mailer once ran for mayor of New York City on that idea.

I think his campign slogan was "the 51st state". Jimmy Breslin ran with him, maybe for something like city council president.

[originalpckelly]

11. Since our founding this has actually been an idea floating around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_secession

It, as a single city, has a large population than many states. It really shouldn't be a part of NY State.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. I hope it's the beginning of a trend. Being a "SuperPower" is downright stupid.

Not to mention self-defeating.

[madinmaryland]

15. Where does that leave Putnam and Dutchess county?

I would imagine Poughkeepsie would want to ally itself with NYC and not NY State.

:shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. Yeah, but NYC doesn't want to align with Poughkeepsie

Just because the ugly boy wants to go to the prom with the beauty queen doesn't mean the beauty queen wants to go to the prom with the ugly boy.

;-)

[Marr]

16. The different regions of this country really are very diverse.

Unfortunately, the entire system is designed to minimize the peoples' influence, and it ends up leaving places like California and New York with (proportionately) far too little say in the workings of government.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

35. Are you serious?

California provides nearly one quarter of the house voting membership and presidential electors...

[Marr]

38. One house of Congress is an accurate reflection of the country, yes.

And it's widely regarded as the unruly part of the government, requiring babysitting by the Senate.

Everything else is designed to check it's actions and give disproportionate representation to empty land. I'm talking about everything from the primary system to the electoral college. The whole thing is designed to marginalize the people in the most populated regions.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

40. The Bicameral legislature is genius!

The senate in no way 'babysits the house' the senate cant do squat in terms of passing laws without the house. The House allows the majority to exert their will and the senate allows the minority to protect their rights..

Checks nad balances are a good thing *even within a branch*..

[lurky]

22. I love the idea!

I have technical questions, like what would they do with Long Island, which would be physically separated from the rest of the state? Would this just be the 5 boroughs, or would we take some of the suburban counties with us?

A lot of people upstate despise NYC, and I think they would be glad to see us go if it weren't for the tax base.

[NorthernSpy]

29. It's true: blue states subsidize red states, and blue counties subsidize red counties...

Despite howling the loudest about taxes, it's the red state voters who consistently get more than they give.

[Chovexani]

34. I've been wanting the HK model for years for NYC

We would have equal marriage if it wasn't for upstate.

[NoGOPZone]

36. What happens to Staten Island?

There was once a big secession movement there.