What do you think of churches telling their congregations to "vote their values?"

[begin_within]

Is this a violation of the separation of church and state? I take my mother to mass every Sunday because she's a devout Catholic who has been going to it for 89 years and she can't get there on her own any more. Yesterday, the announcer before he mass started included in the announcements, "We also would like to remind everyone to get out and vote on Tuesday, to help preserve your moral and religious values." I know churches are not allowed to endorse candidates, but to me, even telling the congregation to get out and vote is crossing the line that separates church and state. What do you think?

[aquart]

1. I want to remove their tax exempt status, I do.

[BOSSHOG]

4. Me too!!

And I chuckle when they whine that such talk makes them persecuted. You and I pay taxes. Are we persecuted?

[RedCappedBandit]

10. Agreed

[bpeale]

21. exactly! remove their tax exempt status!

[WinkyDink]

27. Absolutely. This is WAY overdue.

[ixion]

2. absolutely it does... get out and vote is a political statement

and if a church makes that statement, they are effectively a NGO and should be taxed as such, and in fact should no longer be able to call themselves a church, IMO.

[thereismore]

3. Well, you know, I hate that too, but there is an awful lot of electioneering

going on in traditionally black churches. It's a tradition I guess, but it makes me queasy.

[leftofthedial]

5. I think they should pay taxes

at a very high corporate rate

(as long as religious cons are still "legal" they should at least pay taxes on the take)

[zorahopkins]

6. It Depends

Some congregations have good and decent values that truly are moral. (Think about the church that Dr. King pastored before his death.

Other churches are just immoral and have sick values (like Jerry Falwell's church of that guy out in Topeka, Kans).

I have NO problem with people in churches that have good and decent values being encouraged to do thier civic duty and vote.

BUT I do have a problem with people in sick, immoral churches being encouraged to "preserve their (im)moral and (non)religious values."

[MissB]

7. I think it is okay to tell them to vote their values.

I think it is okay to tell them to get out and vote.

It is not okay to tell them which candidates to vote for, though, but you already knew that.

Not every person who attends a religious service is going to be a conservative. Not every religious person is going to listen to their clergy on how they should vote. Not all Americans are that brain-dead.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Quantess]

14. If that's ALL they said--- "vote your values".

But it has been shown that many religious organizations say a lot more, and tell their flock which values they should hold, and which politicians they should support.

Many churches are very political.

[tanyev]

8. I vote my moral and religious values. That's why I vote for Democrats.

[etherealtruth]

26. Exactly

I am a values voter, as well. That's why I've never voted for a Republican (except for a sheriff in Spotsylvania County Va ... if I told the story most would understand).

[Puckster]

9. It absolutely crosses the line.

They want to infringe on the rights of others, from the pulpit. They should lose tax exempt status NOW. That also works both ways. How comfortable would congregants be with the government elbowing its way through church doors, and telling them how to practice their religion!? It's a slippery slope that we really don't need to go down.

[begin_within]

29. Great point.

[TooBigaTent]

11. Part of the problem is what "values" they emphasize. The catholics are anti-choice

but also supposed to be anti-death penalty.

There is NEVER a call to uphold the latter, only the former. So, it is not equal access for ideas.

I also agree that they should not be tax-free, regardless of the political action (or lack of).

Pay taxes like everyone else. Or, because they are wealthy, can they evade them?

[TCJ70]

12. Who cares as long as...

...they aren't endorsing a candidate or telling people who to vote for.

[JDPriestly]

13. I think there is nothing wrong with that. I vote my values.

That is precisely why I will be voting for John Edwards rather than either of the other two.

[Irishonly]

15. It Depends

Reminding a congregation to vote shouldn't be a concern to anyone. The problem is voting moral and religious values. Now my moral and religious values tell me to vote for the democratic candidate. I don't know what the statistics are but I imagine your mom was being told to vote for anti abortion, anti stem cell etc.

Right before the 2000 election an Episcopal church got into a lot of trouble because the pastor asked the congregation to vote for peace. It one church gets into trouble so should they all. Bush has muddied the line between separation of church and state and it's going to take a lot of work to get it established again. Why they ever let him by with faith based is a mystery. My pastor was darn near as mad as I was and we never have requested any funds.

Absolutely no one should have to listed to political bs from the pastor, priest or whatever.

[Puckster]

23. I've been to that "liberal" church in Pasadena.

It's hypocritical for the government to go after them for asking people to vote for peace (too Jesusy?) and have nothing to say to the churches in the deep south that used to lynch African Americans under the banner of a very warped version of the teachings of the Bible. Whose version of events becomes the standard for whether a church remains tax exempt? What about the Quakers and the Unitarians? Are they excluded from tax exempt status because they focus more on the peace and social justice that Jesus taught?

[Irishonly]

30. The neocon churches

should be penalized. They have gone over the line for years. My point was if the government went after the church in Pasadena, the neocon churches should get in trouble also. Bush has trashed separation of church and state and now the many neocon churches are out of control politically

[Burma Jones]

16. I do believe progressive religions also urge their members to vote.....

[Warpy]

17. Any church that says "vote" anything should lose its tax exempt

status. Sorry, but that's intrusion into the political process and I don't give a rip which side it's on and I resent the hell out of the fact that they're overstepping their boundaries like this and getting away Scot free.

I'd also like to see all commercial property held by churches taxed. That includes everything from strip malls to hospitals to summer camps to schools.

I'd especially love to see the books of Westboro Baptist Church forced open by the IRS. That church is a total scam run by the Phelps family as a massive tax dodge. Why it hasn't been declared a taxable political PAC by now speaks to rampant corruption at the IRS that favors wingnut churches illegally dabbling in politics.

:rant:

[LynneSin]

18. As long as they aren't telling them what candidate to vote for

It's all good.

You think this is just for all the fundies right? Well there are churches that are pre-dominantly minorities that help out the democrats with the vote. It all about equals out itself in the end.

[Quantess]

19. Anyone seen "Jesus Camp"?

Those fundies are extremely politically active.

I especially like the life-size cardboard cut-out of W for the children to admire.

[truebrit71]

20. They should surrender their tax exempt status....

..or stick to what they're good at...trying to scare people into believing fairy tales and myths...

[zanne]

22. The Catholic churches around here place campaign leaflets on cars

When people get out of mass, they return to their cars to see who the "values" candidates are. I think it's sleazy and yes, their tax-exempt status should be taken away.

[begin_within]

28. That is really blatant!

And putting it on paper... I would save one as evidence.

[JVS]

32. Are you sure that it's the Parish or Diocese itself or is it done by individuals who know...

that Catholic voters are likely to be sympathetic to their cause, so they target the cars in the parking lot?

[Rob H.]

24. The local right-wing fundagelical megachurch hosted Huckabee yesterday

He was in Memphis on a campaign trip and stopped by to talk to the congregation. They showed clips on the local news last night and not only did it show the pastor leading a prayer for Huckabee, the pastor was telling the congregation about Huckabee's pro-life stance. Huckabee didn't ask to come, either--the church invited him to be a "featured speaker."

Pastor Steve Gaines introduced Huckabee by praising the candidate's abortion stance.

"I am proud to say he is unashamed and unapologetically pro-life," Gaines said, to overwhelming applause from the crowd.

That sounds like an endorsement to me. FTR, one of Gaines' sermons a few weeks ago was all about the evils of abortion, and he was telling his congregants to vote for pro-life candidates whenever possible, and to support candidates who want abstinence-only sex education (which he conveniently neglected to mention doesn't work). Gaines is also anti-evolution, just like Huckabee.

If he's going to endorse a candidate, fine, but the church's tax-exempt status needs to be yanked when he does.

[AZBlue]

25. Isn't that what we all do when we vote?

I'm voting my values - and it's got nothing to do with religion.

[JVS]

31. If people aren't allowed to vote their values, I see little point in voting at all.

I have always seen it as such: churches and every other group are allowed to teach and promote their values without the state interfering. The state on the other hand has the obligation to allow all factions pursue their own beliefs, so they cannot allow any of the groups to dictate belief to one another.

Churches are not allowed to explicitly say "This party is the one that we back", and that it right because such an arrangement would merely lead to churches creating their own parties. However if political parties choose to ignore their values, it is not the fault of the churches that their congregants don't support the party.

[gratuitous]

33. Let's see . . .

All war is sin.

Feed the hungry.

House the homeless.

Clothe the naked.

Serve one another in love.

Yep, I can see why our small congregation, with its massive $50,000 annual budget, should have to pay taxes for operating on those principles. After all, we just put together 1,090 soup packets yesterday. Thanks to those efforts, 12 people will have a decent meal today. And tomorrow. And the day after that. And every day from now until Super Bowl XLIII, when we'll do it all again.

But how does that stack up with the ultra-righteous on this thread? Clearly, we're just subverting the political system, promulgating fairy tales, and generally mucking things up.

Guess we should just all go shoot ourselves in the head.

[yewberry]

34. It doesn't cross the line.

The church hasn't advised anyone how to vote or endorsed a candidate. Those things are over the line.

A few years ago, I lived in MA and local churches were organizing against civil unions and equal marriage--they actually endorsed or condemned candidates and measures. THAT is over the line and as far as I'm concerned, the Catholic church should have been fined seriously and several local pastors should have been canned.

Encouraging people to vote their conscience isn't over the line, though.

[shugah]

35. i don't think there is anything wrong with that statement

"vote your values." of course, back in the olden days when i went to church, it was a unitarian church.

but, i think churches should be taxed anyway whether they push a political agenda or not.