How can people actually *believe* stuff like this....

[Ghost in the Machine]

much less say out loud to be printed in a paper, without fear of being locked up in a rubber room?

"The 36-year-old letter carrier and mother of four was one of three Van Buren County residents killed in a monster storm that ground a path across the Southeast, claiming more than 50 lives in several states. Her husband Raymond, 38, and their 14-year-old daughter, Ellise, were also seriously injured.

Standing Wednesday amid the debris field of twisted metal and pink insulation, Carmon Lagunes struggled to grasp why God would take her sister.

"That's his wrath," she said, looking toward the wreckage. "For some reason, he's not happy right now and this is. ... Nobody understands God's will. I sure as hell don't understand it.

Said Anita Goodnight, the sisters' aunt: "God didn't do it. Satan did."
http://www.att.net/s/editorial.dll?bfromind=7814&eeid=5680132&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=1&ck=&ch=ne
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I seriously just don't understand this need to have some supernatural diety or deities to blame for all your failures, or praise for your accomplishments.

Yes, I know all about free speech & tolerance, but come on, man... if someone says they were abducted by aliens, they want to lock you up in a nuthouse for a few days and observe you, but people are free to spout off these wild fairytales about some magical, supernatural cloud dweller that made everything in the world in 6 days and knows exactly what everyone, everywhere, is thinking and/or doing every second of every day of their lives and they're actually LOOKED UP TO as if they are somehow superior and worthy of respect and praise.

Am I wrong for feeling this way? What's wrong with me?

[Recursion]

1. You don't have to

Why do you have to "understand" another person's view of the world? It's how she has managed to make sense of a world that's screwed up enough to mess with anybody's brain.

[soleft]

2. In this case it looks like people unable to deal with unbearble grief

There are some things some people can not experience without breaking apart, so sometimes they need to find a way to frame it so they don't feel it.

[Orrex]

4. That's a compassionate and not unreasonable suggestion

However, it's my sense that many people who reach too quickly for the "It's God's Will" banner don't require a horrific tragedy to inspire them to it, and perhaps that's the underlying question.

Surely, when faced with overwhelming destruction, even the most critical thinker might falter and wonder "why?" But the difference is that, for some people, the all-too-handy answer is "It's God's Will," which doesn't really provide an answer.

I suspect that many people who ask "why" don't actually want an answer anyway, and for them the question itself is a comfort. Still, for those of us holding out for a real answer to that question, appeals to divine whim are generally unsatisfactory.

[elehhhhna]

12. one gets numb & takes comfort in "god's will", the other questions her faith...and of the two,

the latter option is uglier.

[Orrex]

14. Why is the latter option uglier?

It seems to me that a faith not constantly questioned is a dead faith.

[elehhhhna]

16. zoning out on ""god's will" is easier emotionally .imo.

[Orrex]

18. I'm not sure I understand what you mean

I'm not being flippant or (intentionally) dense, but could you elaborate on that?

[elehhhhna]

21. my experience w/ people experienceing a catastrophe is that writing things off to "god's will"

more or less tables the anguished questioning of the event.

The few I've met who copped to having their faith shaken were only beginning the anguished questioning.

Met a GoldStar Mom recently who's been very devout and now wonders if it's all been a waste. I was thinking specifically of her when I responded. She's in a very dark place right now. I suggested to her that since Christ once wondered if God had forsaken HIM, there's no harm in mere mortals doing the same. It seemed to help, a little.

[Andy Canuck]

27. I have counselled people through profound giref

and the stronger their attachment to the idea that it is God's will that caused the death of a loved one, the longer and more destructive is the grief. Eventually the tragedy is that they then have to repudiate their belief system in order to be able to feel the grief in them, to feel the loss. So then there is double agony of the loss of faith and a loss of the loved one. To believe God (or Satan) is responsible for events is a culture that is lacks sophistication and thoughtfulness. If someone is a believer, it is far better to ask for God's support to cope and acknowledge the loss through the natural mourning process than it is to blame God or Satan for the loss.

[AlCzervik]

3. it's probably in their upbringing, too much bible and not enough books.

Critical thinking, they lack it.

[cobalt1999]

6. or just an unwillingless to consider the alternative to a god run universe.

For some people that's too much for them to consider.

[grantcart]

5. masks a greater fear

[OnyxCollie]

7. It's a crutch.

It allows people who are not smart to profess some "wisdom" to explain situations. It is similar to freepers' adherence to right-wing talking points. When debating, they simply throw out one of these talking points and pat themselves on the back, satisfied with their response.

[mitchum]

10. I think that's the reason behind most people who are "really into spirituality"...

and other assorted hoo hah

"It allows people who are not smart to profess some "wisdom" to explain situations"

Indeed. I've always said it allows dumb people to appear "deep"

[mitchum]

8. Hey, God can't spend all of his time deciding the outcome of high school football games...

he's got to devote some time to calamities and disasters

[mwb970]

25. LOL /nt

[tabasco]

9. Actually, Thor did it.

Don't fuckin' piss off a guy holding a giant hammer.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Jesus specifically warns against believing that

He mentions a tower collapsing (evidently a well-known disaster at the time) and says that the victims were neither better nor worse than anyone else.

[A HERETIC I AM]

13. Whenever I hear someone say how it was "Gods will" that they survived and their neighbor didn't.....

I always think - well, it looks like God was trying to get you too and missed.

[Larry Ogg]

15. Its called selection of premise

And blocking out of uncomfortable conclusions, which leads too paralogisms and conversive thinking. Its the phenomena that allows the status quo to maintain its minority rule in pretend Democracy’s - of which the majority is scared into electing the same corrupt politicians over and over again, because they are best able to protect us from the boogie man or find favor from a higher deity that is obviously pissed off at the southern states about something… Hmm, could it be global warming..?

[yewberry]

17. Here:

Hap
Thomas Hardy


If but some vengeful god would call to me
From up the sky, and laugh: "Thou suffering thing,
Know that thy sorrow is my ecstasy,
That thy love's loss is my hate's profiting!"

Then would I bear it, clench myself, and die,
Steeled by the sense of ire unmerited;
Half-eased in that a Powerfuller than I
Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.

But not so. How arrives it joy lies slain,
And why unblooms the best hope ever sown?
Crass Casualty obstructs the sun and rain,
And dicing Time for gladness casts a moan. . . .
These purblind Doomsters had as readily strown
Blisses about my pilgrimage as pain.

[stillcool]

19. Life and death...

such personal experiences. After a stint in AA I came up with an idea of what God might mean to me..some connection to this earthly experience to stop me from spinning off of the planet. I have never seen, nor heard, my idea expressed by others. There is always something that makes me recoil back with horror at some twist in the tale. God, and every conception of spiritual connection to the world around me, has been seriously bastardized over the last however many years for political gain. But regardless of nuts and quacks and bible-thumpers, when life offers me no choices, I still have the choice to believe what I want.

[Exultant Democracy]

20. It's even worse when you think about how many medical problems this type of magic thinking lead to.

[El Pinko]

22. My wife is one of these - Buddhist, but the same way.

Everything bad that happens is because of bad karma and/or not chanting enough. Everything good that happens is because she changed.

I've tried to push her in the direction of logical thought, but it's hopeless.



Sometimes I think that some people's brains are just hardwired to think this way, that without these divine (or demonic) explananations for the senseless things that happen every day the world would not be worth living in for them.

Atheism isn't the most comforting philosophy, in the long run - I know that, but I'm even more scared of surrendering my mind to religion and superstition.



To all of you who find joy in religion - MORE POWER TO YOU, but I personally don't want any of it.

[ProfessorGAC]

23. If God Has That Kind Of Wrath . . .

. . .doesn't that mean God has temper tantrums? Do perfect beings lose control of their temper? Something seems amiss.
The Professor

[mwb970]

24. I'm more intrigued by the ones who were saved by prayer.

I read this morning of a family that said they had all prayed to Jesus and that he had saved them. But I was thinking, what about the people who died? I suspect they were praying to Jesus too. How did Jesus decide which prayers to respond to and which to ignore? If you say Jesus saved your life, aren't you also saying that he purposely allowed others, also praying, to die? And that brings us back to the mysterious "God's will".

The bottom line: you cannot petition the Lord with prayer!

[pink-o]

26. It's the "wrath" idea that's so scary

...These Fundies are all about anger and violence, and the idea that a tornado is because God is pissed is just a classic.

How about a tornado in winter because humans have caused climate change and we need to adhere more to the laws of nature? Why do humans believe that a "God" would put them above natural law? The arrogance of that makes my head explode.

I work at SF airport, and one time a young man found a lady's handbag with everything essential inside: credit cards, ID, cash, cell phone, et al. He brought it to me, and I paged the woman. When she showed up, the man gave her the handbag, and after registering shock that she'd left it, she took it from the fellow, then announced: "I got it back because I'm a Christian." No thanking the person who'd found it or anything. Just an arrogant entitlement that because she goes to church God will reward her.

I'm an agnostic. I despise fundies worse than anyone else in America, because of that destructive ignorance. Fuck tolerance! When a society validates idiots like that, gives them the power to oppress curiosity and education, that society gets the stupid populace it deserves!

If England had allowed their fundies that power, instead of sending them to us in the 1600s, we wouldn't even have the basic scientific wisdom of Newton or Darwin. Think of what those bastards are stopping future Newtons or Darwins from right now!

[Javaman]

28. god = good things. satan = bad things

so I guess according to this logic, god ignored her sister. because, you know, god is everywhere all at once.

I think her sister had the devil in her, that's what me be thinkin'!

:banghead:

[Javaman]

29. And now for a little dark humor...

perhaps god believes in natural selection as well, otherwise he wouldn't have put all the thumpers in tornado alley.

I'm just sayin'...

[Tesha]

31. There's no doubt that God would believe in natural selection.

> perhaps god believes in natural selection as well, ...

There's no doubt that God would believe in natural selection.
Think about how you could create the universe:

o You could bust your holy butt creating every damned
little thing, each species designed individually, from
algae to armadillo, creating all those geological strata
and implanting all those fake fossils and stuff, launching
incoming light from all directions with every photon
carefully red-shifted so that the whole 6,000 year old
gizmo looks like it's been around for 13 billion years
or so, or

o You could set some basic ground rules for the universe,
turn the big switch on, and let it create itself according
to your divine, if somewhat subtle plan. The you could kick
back and take the weekend off and watch as things develop.

A smart god would definitely use method #2.

Tesha

[leftofthedial]

30. so this gawdjeezis thing they all worship

is a psychopathic murderer?

and they don't understand why?


superstitious, religiously insane morons.

[spoony]

32. Piss off.

Who the hell are you jerks sitting around getting your rocks off mocking the beliefs of people standing in the wreckage of what was once their lives? Is that really what's important right now? To shout how stupid their beliefs are?

Get a fucking hobby.

[pink-o]

34. No one's mocking, no one's teasing. This is a serious problem.

This woman didn't look to ease her grief by saying "It's God's Will" she said it was God's "Wrath".

So who in this whole scenario is being belligerent???? Us????

[spoony]

35. No, it isn't. Not a problem. Not your business. Not the time.

And if you honestly don't think anyone is mocking or teasing, I'd have to suggest re-reading.

[LanternWaste]

33. Different people believe different things.

More often than not, I don't think it's as much as "a need" as it is simple faith (trust in that of which we do not have full knowledge of). Different people believe different things (and thank goodness for that).

As for those for whom it really is a need, it seems to me that believing "it's God's will" is far more benign than relying on a bottle or prescription meds which many people do in times of stress or emotional duress.

There are people of faith I look up to, and there are people who do not share that faith that I look up to. My respect of a person is certainly not going to be 100% predicated on some intractable dogma insisting on the existence or absence of a divine power. And although it may factor in to one unknown degree or another, it's certainly not an overriding factor. And I think most people fall into that same category to one degree or another.

However, in times of stress, I myself have said many things that one one could easily infer to be an Absolutist Dogma (e.g, "Damn you to hell", "I wish you were dead", "This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me", etc.) -- but that's more because I was under stress and less because of any Absolutist Dogma.


The book, 'Reformed Doctrine of Predestination' by Loraine Boettner goers into this very aspect of human thought rather insightfully, and I recommend it to anyone who struggles with the faith of other people.