A little morality conundrum: We ALL support the War in Iraq.

[Tyler Durden]

I have heard THIS or THAT candidate voted/supported THIS or THAT regarding the war.

You know what? ALL of us are to blame. Try this on for size:

Did Obama vote for any resolution that contained War Funding?
Yes.

Did Obama vote for any resolution that contained Defense Department Funding?
Yes.

Therefore, Obama votes to support the war.

One step further:

Do you pay your taxes?
Yes.

Does even ONE PENNY of your taxes go to support the Iraq War?
Yes.

Can you DECLINE to pay your taxes (even though jail is a likely result)?
Yes.

Therefore, YOU pay to support the killing and torture in Iraq.


I wrestle with this one every time I open my freaking wallet, and I don't have a good answer.

[Cary]

1. The good answer is to vote for Democrats.

While they may not be perfect, they are at least talking most of the talk for now.

If they don't end up walking the walk after we empower them, then we will have to throw the bums out. It is our job to second guess them, but we can do it only at election time.

[mike_c]

2. selective blindness....

The OP just detailed how the democrats are part of the problem rather than the solution. Did you miss those lines? Electing more of the same war supporters is not a rational response.

[bryant69]

6. I think you might be overstating the OPs point

I'm not sure if it was specific to the Democratic Party candidates.

Do you pay taxes? Yes. Do I? Yes. We are all supporting the war. We as a society are culpable for what is going on in Iraq, and, for the most part, even here at DU we are pretty much fine with it.

The question of what we should be doing about it, how we should approach this problem is a bigger one. Because if the rot of militarism is that deeply ingrained, how can we really fix it?

What is the rational response you speak of?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mike_c]

19. good question....

Frankly, I'm not sure what constitutes a rational response except maybe in abstract terms. To be clear-- I think electing new representatives of the same failed policies is NOT rational. It meets the loose definition of insanity wherein we do the same thing over and over while expecting different outcomes. It works sometimes because candidates sometimes surprise us when they attain high office, but that's a sword that cuts both ways and not the sort of phenomenon I want to rely upon to achieve good government.

So a rational choice must be drawn from some other pool of actions but what other choices do we really have? That's the real problem as I see it. There are few, if any, viable political alternatives at present, and we've seen several of them trampled by the political process (Kucinich, Edwards, Dean, etc). That leaves solutions outside the current political establishment, about which I have no illusions of viability in the near term. We need a genuine revolution that sweeps aside many of the impediments that impede progress toward good governance, including our own political party-- I'd argue that we've diverged so far from the intended operating conditions of the American experiment in democracy that such a revolution should take us back to some original principles-- but that is clearly not on the immediate horizon.

Still, there is little doubt that just doing the same thing again and again, elevating candidates whose qualifications for office are screened by the process that creates the very problems we hope they will correct, is ridiculous. We are reenacting a farce, over and over again.

[bryant69]

23. So you don't advocate revolution and you advocate not participating in the current system?

That doesn't sound like a very good plan? Or did I miss something?

Bryant

[mike_c]

24. no no....

In the broadest sense I DO advocate revolution. I believe that revolutionary change is necessary and desirable. The problem is that there isn't any revolution on the horizon and I'm certainly not going to endorse the cause of a revolution I haven't given a good long squinty look-over.

Further, I don't wholly advocate "not participating in the current system." It's the only one we have. Yes, perhaps I'd rather be on the barricades, but there aren't any on my street yet. What I advocate is NOT playing the game the system wants us to play. If the dems nominate a candidate who is part of the problem, vote for someone else if we don't want to be part of the problem ourselves. The only way to create change is to not follow the herd's expectations, one way or another.

[bryant69]

27. So you favor voting for a candidate who has no chance of winning?

It sounds to me a lot like you favor turning down a half a loaf in favor of getting hungry enough to fight for the whole loaf.

Again, I'm not sure that's a winning strategy.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mike_c]

28. a winning strategy?

What do you "win" by electing a candidate who serves the same masters, changes little, etc? This isn't team sports. What exactly do you expect to "win" if either of the current democratic candidates is elected president? It's hard for me to call that "winning."

[bryant69]

29. I expect to "win" incremental improvements in the system

I expect that if Obama or Clinton are elected, things will get better in a lot of small ways and a few big ways. I further expect that if we elect McCain or Romney things will get worse.

Bryant

[mike_c]

31. well, it certainly helps to have low expectations....

Good luck with that (not meant snarkily at all-- if you're right, we'll all benefit, at least a little).

[bryant69]

34. It's certainly better than having large expectations that won't be fulfilled. n/t

[Cary]

17. What isn't rational about working within the system?

Do you think you can overthrow the system and replace it with something better?

If that's where you're going, count me out.

[Tyler Durden]

21. No system is perfect. That's why none of them last forever.

This one won't either.

The best thing we can do is make improvements to evolve the process into something better. Surely you don't believe as Candide did that "This is the best of all possible worlds,"?

[Cary]

33. It's a lot better than Baghdad, or many other shit holes.

Improvements and evolution are wonderful things and our system in fact provides for such things.

It is not the system that makes or breaks the process, as you refer to it. It's the culture.

As much of a flaming liberal as I am--and I am a flaming liberal--Edmund Burke had a few things right. Rightists have seen to ignore these things and you can see where it got them. You can't just go into a place, lay your hands upon the people and expect to have something better than Baghdad.

We too ignore Burke at our own peril.

[mike_c]

22. the "system" actively screens out candidates with any hope...

...of genuinely changing the system. We've seen it time and time again. We get more of the same, perhaps with a different face, a different party identification, or a different slogan. Sure, I'd love to "overthrow the system and replace it with something better." Why don't you want to see the present system replaced with something that even you describe as "better?"

[atreides1]

3. My taxes pay for other things as well

But my taxes also support unemployment, social security, food stamps, the public school system, and other programs beside the war.

Do we throw the elderly, the disabled, the poor, into the toilet because tax dollars go to the war.

Do I actively support the war, no, and neither do you. If you wish to carry the weight on your shoulders be my guest I won't get in the way of your self imposed martyrdom, enjoy.

[Tyler Durden]

9. I hope you don't believe in GOD.

My atheism (when I'm not sweating with a death phobia panic attack) is one of the things regarding this issue that allows me to sleep at night.

Of course our tax dollars support GOOD THINGS, but I'm sorry, you're wrong. .000001% of one of the pennies you put out for tax helped to pay for the waterboard equipment used by the CIA.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

[Phentex]

35. You cannot be an atheist....

your money says In God We Trust. By your own argument then, if you spend it, you must believe in god, right?

[Tyler Durden]

37. Actually, I cross that out when I remember.

But your comment really doesn't work. One could have spent Rubles without being a Party member. Or Canadian money in Canada without being a Canadian (although I wouldn't object to that one).

[sinkingfeeling]

4. No, all of my GOP brother-in-law's taxes support the occupation, but all of my taxes go for

social programs. That's how I play it in my mind. And since the cost of the DOD and 'wars' is more than the cost of social programs, my BO gets to pay more taxes and that makes me smile!

[ixion]

5. I struggle with this dilema each and every day

It makes me very unhappy to know that my tax dollars go to supporting the slaughter. On the other hand, if I don't pay my taxes, and go to jail, the anti-war movement has had another voice effectively silenced, as I am a very vocal opponent of our illegal invasions, and violence in general.

Not paying your taxes and going to jail is what the war hawks want.

[genie_weenie]

7. This is true, which is why no one "really" cares about the troops

because of fear. Fear, silly diversions, and lack of true education is enough to keep people from ever stopping the MIC. Pay your taxes = Support the War Machine.

soldiers, bah they signed up let'em lose their limbs, lives and souls...

[lligrd]

8. Actually, I Don't Think Any Of Us Are Paying For This War

Must be China's fault for loaning us money.

[Tyler Durden]

11. HAH! That's a good one. Seriously.

It is actually one more step removed from directly paying for a bullet for the troops or a Die Hard for the CIA to use on "terrarists."

Would be better if we could just STOP though.

[OHdem10]

10. You are so right. Very Very Few Anti War Purists.

Another conundrum while the majority of Americans want us
out of Iraq--they do not want to appear as losers. Nationalism
runs through the rank and file in both parties. This is why
the GOP cleverly use Victory, Win to justify staying in Iraq.

The Dems would have to make an all out radia and TV Blitz to
change this perception. The Congress has to do it and I do
not see them with this kind of courage.

Therefore we will elect a Commander In Chief.

[Tyler Durden]

14. Nationalism is the worst CANCER the human race has ever contracted.

Also the most TREATABLE, if you WANT to treat it, that is.

[Mountainman]

12. Self flagellation seems to me. I've never supported this war. I pay taxes yes but I don't make th...

laws that say where they go. I would like to have boxes on my tax return to check off saying where I want my money to go.

[Tyler Durden]

15. It doesn't excuse you.

This isn't self flagellation. It's a call to ACTION.

If you haven't written/called/emailed your or another legislator lately, now's your chance. It works to salve my conscience a little.

Any if you excuse yourself by saying you have no say where the money goes, well, if you chose not to decide, you STILL have made a choice.

You don't have to get neurotic about it: I don't, but I make a point of taking DAILY anti-war action of some kind, no matter how small. Gotta start somewhere.

[The Stranger]

13. Another great post, Mr. Durden. You do your chosen moniker justice.

"People are always asking me if I know Tyler Durden . . ."

[Tyler Durden]

16. Damn. You DO know Tyler Durden.

We got one hell of big Fight Club here. That's actually why I chose it: I've watched online threads and arguments go on single minded as long as then need too...until the hand goes up.

[The Stranger]

26. "The first rule of Fight Club is . . . "

"The second rule of Fight Club is . . ."

[MedleyMisty]

18. I know it and own it and let it go

I realize it and take responsibility for it, but I don't obsess over it or let it make me feel like a horrible person. I just try to make sure that I know what is being done in my name and with my tax money and hold the victims in my mind.

And do what I can for them, which right now is mostly trying to wake up people on other net boards and get them to take responsibility as well.

[Tyler Durden]

20. Then you're doing what you can...

Some can do more, some less. The important thing is to do SOMETHING.

Saying "Oh, well. I don't control that," and doing nothing condones the action. I think most of us, self included, need a like "goad" from time to time, bringing us to action from complacency.

[elehhhhna]

25. Ya forgot to ask s"Will your KIDS pay taxes?", b/c they're going to get stuck w/ lots of this debt.

[Kitty Herder]

30. Remember this guy?

[Tyler Durden]

32. Doesn't work now unless EVERYONE does it.

Otherwise, we get to share a cell in security prison.

As the Rastas say, "Ev'r'body want gwine Heav'n; NOBODY want gwine DEAD."

[Kitty Herder]

36. Not necessarily everyone.

If, say, 2 million people did it, it would send a strong message and I don't think they could jail that many people. The jails are overcrowded as it is.