Why do some people speak of cultural intolerance as "racism"?

[Boojatta]

[Buzz Clik]

1. It's a matter of sloppy language usage.

Most people don't like intolerance of any kind and tend to lump cultural and ethnic intolerance under one heading.

[Boojatta]

2. Can there be law enforcement without any intolerance of violation of law?

I don't see how there could be a World Court unless there are laws that specify behaviors not tolerated anywhere. Some people say that the British judicial authority in India had no right to forbid the burning of a living widow along with her dead husband, that the British were practicing cultural imperialism. Yet recent proposals for the extension or reform of international law don't seem to identify any controversy involving widow burning.

Is progress towards international law reliant upon cultural imperialism of the past that effectively stamped out some practices?

[Buzz Clik]

7. Clearly your thoughts about this are far more complicated than your poll would suggest.

Many cultures allow brutality that we find unthinkable. I have no idea where we should draw the line between enforcing the concept of basic human rights and interference.

[Dr. Strange]

3. Racism is a bigger hammer.

It's easier for some to dismiss their opponent if they are "racist" as opposed to "culturally intolerant."

[bryant69]

9. Yeah but being culturally intolerant is likewise bigotry

Unless i really don't know what you guys are talking about.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Boojatta]

11. Hmmm, maybe I chose poorly when I chose to use the word "intolerance."

[bryant69]

13. Well then here's an idea. Explain yourself. n/t

[Boojatta]

14. If you interpret an attitude of "intolerance" towards a particular cultural practice

to include an assumption that the opposition to the practice is based entirely on the mere fact that the practice differs from what is familiar, then you should simply refrain from making that assumption and you will probably understand what I intended to express.

[bryant69]

22. Ah.

So if a person doesn't like a practice, say Japanese Whaling, He or she should be able to criticize it without being accused of being bigoted against Japanese people.

I suspect that in any extended conversation actual bigotry will pop out.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Dr. Strange]

18. It probably depends on the definition of culturally intolerant.

A lot of people here (myself included) are intolerant of the practice of holding a girl down and slicing off part of her clitoris. But that practice has a cultural aspect to it in certain parts of the world. Therefore, some would argue, our intolerance to this procedure is cultural intolerance. And in some cases, they might even accuse us of racism.

I can accept the cultural intolerance charge, but not the racism one.

[Deep13]

4. #5 is itself an example of bigoty.

The idea that an individual must conform to and may be judged by the group is a prejudicial one. Irishmen and Poles are not required to be Catholic to be Irishmen or Poles, for example. Iranians are not necessarily Muslim. (Just so happens I had a Jewish-Iranian client once.) The individual must always be free to be himself or herself despite cultural norms.

Frankly, not all cultural practices are equally valid. Somethings are downright idiotic or even evil and if the practitioners can't see that, then I don't see what is wrong with outsiders pointing out the obvious.

[Boojatta]

6. "Irishmen and Poles are not required to be Catholic"

Not today, but weren't they at some times in the past required to be Catholic or suffer penalties imposed by the governing authority?

I see a problem with the concept of democracy in a world divided into jurisdictions that are separated by differences of ancestry as much as anything else. To automatically accept as legitimate any laws enforced by any democratically elected government may be to give authority to an ethnic group in a given geographical region, not just to attack other countries, but to impose its will upon dissenting members of the same ethnic group. The power comes from numbers, not from responsibility or good policy.

[AngryAmish]

44. Not in Ireland

Was a British colony for a long time so Protestantism was allowed since the time of Henry the Ocho. Always many Protestants in Ireland. It caused a lot of trouble. Perhaps you heard of it.

[Boojatta]

53. Are you suggesting that, because you know that ...

for a long time Protestantism was allowed, you are able to conclude that there wasn't any period of time when it wasn't allowed?

[The Inquisitive]

55. Yes!

extreme cultural relativists drive me up the wall too!

[asteroid2003QQ47]

5. How would...

Spencer Wells vote?

[LiberalEsto]

8. Two syllables in "racism"

Seven syllables in "cultural intolerance"

[Dr. Strange]

16. Two syllables?

You bigot!

:rofl:

[LiberalEsto]

31. Actually I'm a writer

and I happen to notice words. When I worked in newspapers, we were always taught to use short, easily understood words instead of long windy phrases.
Most people would rather use a short word like racism than whatever multisyllable phrase was cited above.
It didn't even occur to me to think of this in racial terms.

[spoony]

38. I think that's exactly it

[bemildred]

10. NOTA.

Pretty much the same reason that people will call various random conservatives and reactionaries "Nazis". It is content-free name calling.

It must be added that racism and ethnic bigotry are both forms of xenophobia, fear of those different from yourself.

[BlooInBloo]

12. Because they're oversensitive.

[UTUSN]

15. Uh, because racism means intolerance?!1 n/t

[Boojatta]

17. I would think that "race" would be a significant component

in the meaning of a word like "racism."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. please tell me you are kidding... n/t

[Usrename]

19. How about because they are the same thing.

I don't even know what you are talking about.

If you asked "why do some people make racial classifications that others don't make" then I might understand it a little better.

Why do you think there is a difference between racism and cultural intolerance? Both terms seem like they would be based on a belief that one group is superior or inferior to another.

Isn't that the definition of racism?

I think the major difference between xenophobia (fear of the other) and racism or cultural intolerance is that these last two are certainly learned phenomona, while we may all be born with our monkey hind-brain prewired with a certain amount of xenophobia. It actually makes some sense that this reaction would be instinctive, even though we are social animals. Hiding from strangers might have produced better survival results than greeting them, at certain times in our prehistoric past. Especially for the very young.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

21. not the same thing at all

not even close...

Racism is the blind belief that one RACE is superior to another. Not just some random group...

sP

[Usrename]

23. Ok, then enlighten me.

What is race, if it isn't just some random group? Of course race is arbitrary.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. ok...you missed the point...

Belief that a RACE is superior or inferior to another because of RACE alone is racism. Association with some random group, like say Christians, or Muslims and the belief that THEY are superior or inferior is bigotry.

IF someone were... say to use the following groupings :

I am an African-American male who is Christian.

THEN:
Racism means you have an inherent belief that his race is inferior to yours. It would be bigotry to have a problem with him as a Christian.

sP

[Usrename]

25. I'm not missing the point at all.

You seem to think that racism and cultural intolerance are somehow different and that everyone should agree with you on what that difference is.

I argue that either of the two expressions can be defined in such an arbitrary fashion that in most cases there is no real difference.

I know you don't see what I'm talking about. You may think that genetics will decide what race the guy in your example is, or that he can self-identify his race and religion, or something and then that will be the end of it. I say it ain't all that easy. Someone else, say you or I, might see that same person in a completely different light. And we don't all have to agree. In any event, I think that in most cases a person means racist when they say racist, based on their own belief of what race is.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. i think that people should agree

based on what the definition of the words are...not what i think...

However, i can agree that most people who call something racist really mean it...they just don't understand what 'race' is. Identifying race should not be based on a belief...

sP

[Usrename]

32. I guess I'm one of those who don't understand.

What should it be based on, if not a belief?

If you understand a different way, what is it? Why won't you say?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. i DID say it

Racism is based on Race...not culture or anything else.

You said, "In any event, I think that in most cases a person means racist when they say racist, based on their own belief of what race is. " This is what I am talking about. Race is pretty well defined and does not require someone to 'believe' what race 'means'. All you have to do is find that racism is based on race. Race is defined and race is not a function of culture or religion or ritual or who you choose to associate with.

I believe racism and bigotry are real and pervasive in our culture. I also believe that people should use the correct term to describe what is happening.

sP

[Usrename]

42. Ok, you say it's well defined.

How many races are there? That should be very easy. What makes a race a race? That should be easy also.

[Popol Vuh]

27. Is the same thing

A person's culture is every bit a part of their race. Why do you think some racists make the comment "he's trying to act white", etc? Its not because the person they're talking about is trying to change their skin color, its because they are imitating an aspect of someone else's culture.

Secondly, "blind belief that one RACE is superior to another" isn't the only criteria for being a racist. Intolerance and/or dislike of a person based on their skin color or their culture are equally racist, even if that person doesn't think their own race is superior.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. i am sorry...but racism is race...ism

you can have a Black man in any country in Africa and a Black man in the US. Same race. I dare you to show that they have the same culture by anything other than choice.

There are plenty of people who are bigoted against cultures and religions and political affiliations and sexual preferences...but racism is about race. Any further than that and you are redefining the word.

sP

[Popol Vuh]

34. And I am sorry....but

that's not only incorrect, but, its being very narrow minded.

you can have a Black man in any country in Africa and a Black man in the US. Same race. I dare you to show that they have the same culture by anything other than choice.

Correct, but, you don't want to admit that a person's culture is equally identifying to their race as skin color is. Just because you can have people of one race or another adopting, to one degree or another, someone else's culture doesn't change the fact that culture represents race as much as skin color does.

There are plenty of people who are bigoted against cultures and religions and political affiliations and sexual preferences...but racism is about race. Any further than that and you are redefining the word.

"Racism is about race. Any further than that an you are redefining the word."

Really? Lets see then if culture isn't tired into the definition of racism:

Dictionary.com:

A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

Besides culture being tied to race identification, note how the term "usually" is being used with respect to the idea of race superiority.

Like I said. Your idea is only one aspect of what is racism.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

35. the definition you chose supports my view

so I am not sure why you posted it. Race is defined. Racism is : A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

The underlines you added simply point out that RACISM is the BELIEF that RACE determines CULTURE or ACHIEVEMENT.

So yes, Race and Culture are tied...but not the way you are trying to indicate and not how the definition defines it...


sP

[Popol Vuh]

36. LOL... It both supports and refutes your point of view

For the last time. You point of view is only one aspect of what racism is. I just proved that above.. Which is why I suspect you conspicuously avoided responding to how the word "usually" is used in the above definition.

n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. you really need some help with reading the english language

it does not refute my view that racism is about race...in no way does it refute that...

sP

[Popol Vuh]

40. Which is why

You conspicuously avoided responding to how the word "usually" is used in the above definition.

For the last time. I just proved that your point of view isn't the only aspect of what racism is and that culture is tied into the word racism because its as race identifying as skin color is.

There is no further need for me to respond. I've proved my point.


n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

41. re-read please

A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

The usually relates to superiority, which is one aspect of racism (that i agree with you on). The primary part of that sentence is that RACISM is about RACE...you seem to think it is about culture...while this definition would indicate that RACE DETERMINES CULTURE... not the other way around.

I believe racism and bigotry are rampant...I also believe people should use the proper term.

And dropping out...by the way, doesn't mean you proved your point...but believe that if you must.

sP

[Popol Vuh]

43. Ok I'll try to make this as simple as I can

CULTURE is ONE identifying trait towards one's RACE. ERGO, if one is bigoted against one's CULTURE they are bigoted against that culture's RACE - CULTURE and RACE are tied together because they identify with each other.

And the fact that some people of one race or another who adopt someone else's culture doesn't change the above fact. Which is why I made the example in one of the above posts that some racists say, for example, "he's trying to act white". The racist doesn't recognize the person who's trying to "act" white because its not that person's culture. Culture is the equal factor because it identifies with race as equally as skin color does.

Race and culture identify with each other, therefor, to be bigoted against one is to be bigoted against the other.

[Boojatta]

47. A few questions

CULTURE and RACE are tied together because they identify with each other.

What's the distinction between "tied together" and "identify with each other"? To me that sounds a bit like "the Sun is big because it's large." It sounds like repetition or begging the question, not like an explanation.

And the fact that some people of one race or another adopt someone else's culture doesn't change the above fact. Which is why I made the example in one of the above posts that some racists say, for example, "he's trying to act white".

How many people who are classified as being members of a given ethnic group is enough to make their habits, attitudes, and behaviors a characteristic of their ethnicity? When a white radio commentator decides to refer to some athletes as "hos" merely because they are women, is the commentator acting in accordance with the demands of whiteness, violating the rules of whiteness, or neither?

[BoneDaddy]

30. So you support the cultural practice

of female genital mutilation or cannibalism or subjugation of women?

[Usrename]

45. Where does that statement come from?

You also lost me with that remark. I can only guess at what the argument is that you are trying to advance.

It sounds a lot like you are trying to make the point that a person must necessarily either support the sexual abuse of little boys or else they must adopt some kind of anti-catholic bigotry. Do you think that this kind of argument explains something about social intolerance, and that somehow it makes it distictly different from racism? It's difficult to tell exactly what your reasoning is behind this accusation.

In any event, I don't think that way, sorry.

[BoneDaddy]

46. Yes, you missed my point

What I am trying to point out is that we need to be rational and pragmatic when looking at other cultures. I am all for a good spirit of multiculturalism to open ourselves up to new experiences and people, attempting to come to some understanding and common ground so that we can grow and be better people as well as dealing with our own bias and prejudice.

What I have seen alot of liberals believe is that if you have a criticism of a culture, you are racist, anti-semetic, anti-islamic etc and I think that is ridiculous. Cultures, like people, are not perfect and have negative aspects as well as positive ones.

I used female genital mutilation as an example of an extreme cultural practice that any reasonable person can see as barbaric. Do I "understand" why some groups practice it? yes, I do. That said, I believe that the ritual is based in irrational premises about religion and women and is subject to criticism.

Multi-culturalism has evolved, wrongly I think, from a spirit of seeking commonality to becoming some ridiculous belief that all cultures are equal and fair and off limits from critique. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

We only need to look at our own consumeristic culture to know that is not true.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Is an american indian who protests against illegal immigration, racist?

Seems to me that you can't be racist against your own ethnicity.

Besides "Mexican" isn't a race any more than "American" is.

Xenophobia
Racism
Cultural intolerance

All different things, but we tend to use "racism" as shorthand.

[BoneDaddy]

29. Because people will find every reason to feel superior to others

including believing that embracing a acceptance of multiculturalism without a balance of rationality.

There are plenty of practices of other cultures that I find abhorent. Female genital mutilation comes to mind. I think it is barbaric. I understand the reasons but I just don't agree with them.

This is often the liberal achilles heel. We want to be open to all cultures and that on its face is a good thing. If we can overcome our own prejudices and work towards understanding other groups of people, I see no wrong in that. What I do think happens is that this idea of openness gets translated as blind acceptance and support and that is where problems occur.

[chaska]

39. Thank you for making the point.

[Redstone]

48. Because "cultural intolerance" is a weasel phrase. Racism is racism, no matter now

much anyone wants to sugarcoat it.

Redstone

[Boojatta]

50. No doubt racism is racism. R is R, as the randroids might say.

The question is then: what ideological territory is the jurisdiction of racism?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. This refers to something, right? Link?

[Boojatta]

52. It doesn't refer to any one big thing in particular that I can think of.

However, the complete thread indicates that the "Nobody..." option is wrong (unless some people are role playing). Thus, the thread has itself elicited or evoked an example of what the thread refers to.

[Boojatta]

54. Here: you don't need to read through this whole thread...

DuStrange referred to "the practice of holding a girl down and slicing off part of her clitoris" (admitting an "intolerance" of it, perhaps influenced by my use of the word "intolerant") and bryant69 proposed Japanese whaling as a possible example.

I trust that you, like DuStrange and bryant69, have enough general knowledge or research ability to identify some other possible examples of practices that one could be intolerant of. Whether or not one can be intolerant of those or other practices while neither accepting nor practicing racism is the question for you.

[SoCalDem]

56. Racism is like porn.. you know it when you see it/hear it....

You don't have to call it by a "special name" ..