Writers of "The Wire" weigh in on Drug War (must read!)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

The Wire's War on the Drug War
Wednesday, Mar. 05, 2008 By ED BURNS, DENNIS LEHANE, GEORGE PELECANOS, RICHARD PRICE, DAVID SIMON



We write a television show. Measured against more thoughtful and meaningful occupations, this is not the best seat from which to argue public policy or social justice. Still, those viewers who followed The Wire — our HBO drama that tried to portray all sides of inner-city collapse, including the drug war, with as much detail and as little judgment as we could muster — tell us they've invested in the fates of our characters. They worry or grieve for Bubbles, Bodie or Wallace, certain that these characters are fictional yet knowing they are rooted in the reality of the other America, the one rarely acknowledged by anything so overt as a TV drama.


These viewers, admittedly a small shard of the TV universe, deluge us with one question: What can we do? If there are two Americas — separate and unequal — and if the drug war has helped produce a psychic chasm between them, how can well-meaning, well-intentioned people begin to bridge those worlds?

And for five seasons, we answered lamely, offering arguments about economic priorities or drug policy, debating theoreticals within our tangled little drama. We were storytellers, not advocates; we ducked the question as best we could.

Yet this war grinds on, flooding our prisons, devouring resources, turning city neighborhoods into free-fire zones. To what end? State and federal prisons are packed with victims of the drug conflict. A new report by the Pew Center shows that 1 of every 100 adults in the U.S. — and 1 in 15 black men over 18 — is currently incarcerated. That's the world's highest rate of imprisonment.

link

[Middle finga]

1. I love the Wire, I hate this is the last season

[mrreowwr_kittty]

4. Unfortunately, I haven't seen too much of it but people tell me it's one of the best shows ever.

I'll have to rent the DVDs.

[Middle finga]

5. I highly recommend it, currently they are airing the 5th and final season.

I started watching it about a year ago and after the first couple of episodes I was hooked so I went and rented all the seasons. I would have to agree it is one of the best shows I've ever seen. Well written, the actors are very good even though they are unknown.

[Speck Tater]

6. I first learned of it through Netflix.

I've faithfully rented and watched every disk. It is an OUTSTANDING show!

[villager]

2. "Jury nullification is American dissent"

Yes, yes, yes, yes!!

Thanks for posting...!

[misanthrope]

10. Jury nullification will get you thrown in jail these days...

...There are current cases involving such. Some of it hinges on lying under oath during voir dire but a good deal of it stems from the anger of judges.

Be careful about advocating such.

[Asgaya Dihi]

12. I'd like to see examples.

I've heard of zero current cases and it's an area I'm interested in. I have heard of jurors being removed from a jury for not being willing to deliberate but never of one being charged simply for nullification and I don't believe they can be, not and have it hold up. Some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification#Court_rulings">legal history on it can be found at Wiki and other places. The courts don't like it and its been upheld that they don't have to tell us about it, but jail us for it alone? Not that I've heard.

[misanthrope]

16. It's dressed up as contempt...

...and the last case I read about was in Colorado a few years back.

Mentioning the words "jury nullification" in deliberation is sometimes enough to draw threats of contempt from some judges. Defense attorneys have been threatened with the same in court by judges who don't like them bringing it up to jurors.

I have no problem with jury nullification and realize the historical precedent involved and the arguments around it. In theory, it is one thing but is still considered a hazy area in practice. When one thinks of the Jim Crow South, it is easy to see where the potential for abuse and injustice lies.

As I said, one problem jurors might have is that it could possibly be interpreted as a violation of the oath administered at the beginning of voir dire.

If you're really interested in this, my suggestion would be to talk to some judges in your area to see what their feelings are. If you live near a college or law school, talk to some professors. They would certainly have access to the more complete reference materials and databases you seek.

[Asgaya Dihi]

17. I'd still have to see an example

No offense on needing the example but if contempt was charged to a juror, contested and upheld, I'd suspect more to it than simple nullification such as bringing in outside evidence or something else of the sort. Discussing it in terms of nullification *might* cross the line into outside evidence but just practicing it without preaching it, not that I've ever heard of.

The lawyer is another matter, as I said above the courts have ruled that the court has no obligation to tell us about nullification so if a lawyer tried to sneak it in they can be charged with contempt, but I've never heard of it with a juror for simply practicing what is their right by law. It's our right but it's one they have no obligation to instruct us about and can bar the defense from discussing, either we know it as jurors or we don't.

Here's a decent collection of links to read some history and info on the subject, everything from CATO to Progressive Review and Alternet has covered the issue.

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/courts/jury_nullification/jury_nullification.shtml

[villager]

18. and of course, the more that juries nullify, the harder it is for the system to "prevent" it

or stamp it out...

[Asgaya Dihi]

20. To a point.

If used when justified it is a great tool but if overused backlash is always a risk as well, and short term some backlash is possible even when used appropriately. The fugitive slave cases of the 1800s is a great example both of why it's a part of our system and of how it can be properly used, the current drug war seems to be the more current application.

The best known case I'm aware of where a juror was charged with contempt for nullification was Laura Kriho who was charged and convicted for "lying" but the conviction overturned when a higher court decided the conviction and charges themselves were improper. She didn't lie because she was never asked, the judge who charged her depended on info gleaned from deliberations rather than from any pre-trial questions or jury instructions. He can't charge her for not admitting to what was never asked. I'm not aware of charges sticking for simple nullification.

If they ask if you've got conflicts and you lie though, that's another matter and the possibility of being charged for that is still open. Can't say I agree with the places that advise sometimes it's better to lie. Legally, it's not. Nullification would be best used I think if tied to activism and solutions, the fugitive slave issue and drug war again being good examples. If it gives the appearance of anarchy rather than stopgap solution for a problem we need to fix that's when the backlash hits.

[misanthrope]

21. You answered it yourself...

...Laura Kriho, who, though eventually acquitted in the long run, was indeed punished by the ordeal of defending herself and was held against her will for what amounted to bringing up jury nullification.

[villager]

23. can you not have a situation where jurors "nullify" going after other jurors?

:shrug:

[spoony]

26. Nullifying attempts to nullify the nullifiers?

Sounds good to me.

[Asgaya Dihi]

24. And the charges thrown out ;)

She was acquitted, they tried and failed lacking anything more than nullification itself to charge her with. Jury nullification happens all the time and as I've said, I never heard of one being charged for that alone and it sticking. You can be removed from the jury, or if questioned beforehand not allowed to serve. That's about it.

If the biggest risk we face is we may have a one in thousands or more chance of having some judge who isn't up on the law try to file improper charges against us, I'd say we're in pretty good shape. Just follow the law and don't lie, don't leave yourself open to more and you're fine. I'm not about to let the chance that someone might harass me stop me from doing anything and that's all this added up to, improper charges by an uneducated or pissed of and improper judge.

[misanthrope]

27. Did the state reimburse her for her defense...

...or find a way to make up for the harassment and incarceration? I wonder if she lost her job. Did they get her a new one? Just curious.

I personally think jury nullification is acceptable. I'm just saying people should be aware of a possible price paid for standing on principle.

[Asgaya Dihi]

28. Anyone who isn't aware of prices shouldn't be here

I read threads all the time about how people were put on a list by someone or another, you don't confront anyone or anything without the potential of some price. The Kennedy's have found themselves on no-fly lists, did they really think Bobby and Ted were terrorist threats or was it simple harassment? I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that I'm on one as well, I've been outspoken, not much of a traveler though so I don't care if I am.

We've got the right to do it. To speak our mind even if a no fly list might be the result, to put a sign up for our candidate even if it'll piss off the neighbors, to say no you can't look without a warrant when the cop asks if they can, to act on our conscience on jury duty. The fact of jury nullification is older than this nation and has been used countless times to fight injustice in the system, from the days of the Revolution to the fugitive slaves to todays current drug war and racial imbalances. Anyone who is willing to give up any right simply because someone else might not like it doesn't deserve to have any rights to start with, one of our founding fathers noted that years ago. Something about a trade off between essential liberty and security.

All that said, I'd imagine she got plenty of help from activists though that part I'd have to check on, pro bono lawyers and help with expenses wouldn't be unusual for a case like this. Jury Rights Project and the American Jury Institute have an interest both in her and in this case and I wouldn't be surprised to find the ACLU or others in there somewhere as well.

I don't mean to be argumentative and I did note that you think it's acceptable, I just object to trying to scare people with the idea that they can get into some kind of trouble for it. Hell, on that basis don't sign any petitions, write letters objecting to Bush or the repubs, or do about anything else either. Those no fly and other lists are waiting for us and that we can't even object to or appeal. In this case the chances of trouble are minuscule if you follow the law and we can do something about harassment, get it thrown out. That's more than we can say for some of the rest of it.

[misanthrope]

32. I know a guy...

...who was railroaded for doing nothing other than adhering to his ethics.

Here's the first part of his story:

AG investigator under fire

And the second half:

Investigator under fire, Pt. 2

He was fired from a job and position it took years to attain. As stated in the article, he accumulated five figures' worth of debt to avoid prosecution and clear his name. While he was found innocent by the courts, in effect he's the only one who ended up paying a penalty, a stiff one at that.

This is one of the ways that our system can punish people without finding them guilty. The same could be said of Ms. Kriho among others and it makes me absolutely sick. Myself, I've been in situations where I could have gone along with law enforcement and paid a small penalty or stood up and paid a larger one. It was lose-lose.

I have friends who were the victims of an attempted carjacking yet due to a situation with corrupt cops, they were harassed after the fact by the investigating officers. When the officers got in trouble for their course of action against my friends, the cops stepped up the harassment. The civilians in that case knew that the system couldn't protect them and chose to let it die less they be forced to pay an even more costly price for standing by their ethics.

In that situation, it wasn't that they didn't "deserve their rights," but more that they realized any victory gained would pale in comparison to being shot or killed by those sworn to protect them.

Not always, but in some situations, you only have two evils to weigh out and little is gained by opting for the larger one.

That may not be the case with jury nullification, but people need to be made aware that you can't just walk into deliberation flaunting ideals of jury nullification without realizing you may run into a judge who decides to make an example of you, regardless of how wrong he is. If you're going to exercise rights of nullification, keep your cards close to your chest.

[Asgaya Dihi]

33. You're preaching to the choir on that one :)

I'm aware of how arbitrary the system can be, I spent four and a half years locked up as a juvenile without ever being charged with let alone convicted of a crime. Just skipped school to avoid a gang situation, that made me uncontrollable to someone and that was that. That's why I do what I do in life and the whole of why I fight the drug war. Trying to end arbitrary damage and policies which do more harm than good.

In principle I think we might be closer than it seems. I just took offense to the idea that it's somehow inherently risky. If you do it like you said, "walk into deliberation flaunting ideals of jury nullification", then yeah you could be asking for a kick in the ass and I granted that posts ago. Practicing it is fine as a simple act of conscience but preaching it in deliberation especially based on other cases and outside info can be a problem.

It's reasonable enough to warn people off the more extreme advice. Some suggest to lie to get on the jury since they don't have any business asking personal questions anyway. Their right to ask the questions might be questionable but that doesn't make your lie legal, don't do it if you don't want to roll the dice and risk trouble. If you answer every question honestly and they are stupid enough to not ask the right questions so put you on that jury then there's nothing they can really do to you.

As far as extralegal harassment goes that you can run into for a fence dispute with a judge or cop neighbor, a traffic accident, or any number of other issues where someone has more power than they have any right to with less judgment than they needed. I won't say it can't happen but I will note it has nothing to do with this issue any more than it does with any of the others. You either choose to live your life in fear or you don't, here and there. I choose not to. Yeah, it might annoy them but if someone doesn't do it now and then the sense of entitlement grows until they see any challenge as a personal insult and that type of reaction gets more likely and more common. Might be why we're in this type of mess today, our leaders got too entitled. Best to remind them we've got the right to challenge that now and then.

Been nice talking with you, peace :)

[selador]

35. that's different

no JUROR can be held in contempt for jury nullification.


it IS true that judges can limit mention of the concept of JN in the arguments of counsel.

you can't promote nullification any more than an attorney can knowingly present testimony he knows to be perjurous.

but jury nullification is absolutely a well established right of jurors, and to my knowledge none have ever been punished in any way

heck, most legal scholars agree that (based on interviews with jurors after there decision) that the OJ Simpson verdict was de facto nullification.

[selador]

34. cite? n/t

[thunder rising]

3. I was hooked on the first episode ... "you have to, it's America"

[kwassa]

7. The final episode of the last season comes this Sunday.

Critics love this show, yet it has never won an Emmy.

Best series ever on television.

[greyghost]

8. One of if not the greatest show in the history of television. Six

Feet Under and the Sopranos gave it a run for its money but never overtook it. Man am I sorry to see it go.

[Asgaya Dihi]

9. K&R

Never seen the show but the few clips I've seen of it look pretty good. My TV is just a paperweight these days though.

[misanthrope]

11. That show never clicked with me...

...I tried watching it during that first season and it just reminded me of lots of other cop shows.

I've started watching it this year only because of the Baltimore Sun subplots which I find interesting and accurate in a lot of respects.

I don't find the principals intriguing other than Gus Haynes, the city editor. I'd like to see most of them--Carcetti, Davis, McNulty and Stanfield, in particular--go down hard and I'm eager to see the fabulist reporter get his comeuppance this weekend.

I still prefer "The Sopranos" and "Six Feet Under." Different strokes...

[AP]

13. I have the exact opposite feeling. The show really clicks. I was watching season 2 recently and

in the middle of a scene between Proposition Joe and the bartender talking about String meeting with Omar to talk about Brother Mouzone, I thought, "these characters are brilliant."

[ls317]

22. Compare

The Wire vs The Sopranos


The wire is an inner city crime drama that involved murder and drug dealing and issues that are problems in inner city areas( any city USA today),The Sopranos(Are mobsters more accepted in todays society) was a Mob crime drama that involved gangster murders and drug dealing. whats difference..??

[misanthrope]

25. The actors...

...the subtext, the writing, the direction, the cinematography. I'm not talking solely about the subject matter but the art of the storytelling. The style of The Wire seems more highly reminiscent of average crime shows to me.

There's no one on The Wire who strikes me as having nearly the nuance of James Gandolfini.

It's art. It's supposed to be subjective anyway...

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

14. my husband is crazy mad about this show, and I mean CRAZY Mad...

he won't even let me watch it, because he says I have to watch it in order from the first season, which I should do via netflix. On the way home from work on Friday he made me promise I wouldn't make plans or bother him in anyway on Sunday because of the finale.

i am going to send him the link to the story, so thanks for posting it.

[mitchum]

15. I have loved Richard Price for 35 years now...

and this kind of thing will continue that love

[ls317]

19. Great Tv

The wire one of the best unkept secrets in Tv today,Most folks didnt like the show because of the subject matter,the storylines some folks even complained about the language in it. Bottom line is a state of America today,not B-More.Just change the city name and the issues that have been covered in the show are happing today as we speak.

[cliffordu]

29. I've seen every one.

I've also seen the drug war from the same side as Bubbles.

I know him. Not him personally, but the archetype....There are parts of the show that are very realistic.

The drug war has been lost for as long as the current under 50 addict has been alive. That means it has been a losing proposition from the start. It is not possible to actually DO anything about until addiction is treated as a MEDICAL problem, not a legal one.

Rounding up addicts and sending them to prison just means they don't have to travel as far to get drugs; They are in the next cell, in any quantity, in astonishing purity.

Prisons just keep them (us) out of your mall parking lots for a while.

Sooner or later they (we) come back. With better criminal skeels.

Good luck with that.



Edited for semicolon, for laughs.

[JackRiddler]

30. kick & recommend!!!

[suston96]

31. I regret that it's closing. I have enjoyed all 5 seasons. Great writing, directing, acting....nt

[mdmc]

36. he was on fresh air the other day

:kick:

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. BEST TV show EVER

Brilliantly written.

[HardWorkingDem]

38. YES...IT IS THE BEST SHOW...

I work in an urban environment and can state from personal experience - The Wire portrays government work as it really is.

This is what is so great about this show. Give it a try......