What's It Really Like To Live In Europe?

[Yavin4]

American liberals tend to have an Utopian vision of Europe, so I'm looking for an honest assessment.

What's the best country to live in and why?

Are there countries to avoid?

I'm in my 40s. I have an advanced degree (MBA), and I am studying German. My place of work has offices in Europe, and I can make professional contacts that could lead to a job in Europe.

Anyone have any advice for me?

[TooBigaTent]

1. Belgium is my favorite country in Europe. The reality of living there is maybe

not as utopian as we think, but it is a hell of a lot better than the shithole the US has become. They are more advanced in every way, particularly the sociological aspects. There is a little more control over your everyday life, but it tends to be in areas where that control is exercised in the direction and service of a goal that a "liberal" should support - e.g., pollution control.

Your "ins" (company and language) should serve you well.

Good luck.

[Lex Talionis]

77. I've been to Belgium. What's with all the Graffiti in Brussels?

Its on their monuments and Government buildings. Of course this was in 2003 and 04, so maybe its cleaned up by now.

[Middle finga]

2. I lived in Germany for 10 years, as a DoD employee.

I loved it. The Europeans seem to have a different attitude about things, they don't get caught up in all of the pettiness that you see here like censorship, intolerance and homophobia that you see here in the USA. For instance I was there during the impeachment of Clinton and the Germans and the Europeans in general was wonder what is wrong with America making a crisis out something so trivial. My favorite place to visit when I had time off though was Holland, Amsterdam in particular.

[Delphinus]

30. The part about Clinton ...

reminds me of the political assassination I just viewed of Eliot Spitzer (a Brasscheck YouTube video). It's not about the sex - it's about the scathing (I think) Washington Post editorial he wrote.

[MrScorpio]

89. Amsterdam is my favorite city on this planet

If I could move there tomorrow, I'd do it in a heartbeat

[and-justice-for-all]

3. Dutsche ist prima!!!!

If I have to seek asylum from the continued tyrannical US government, it's off to Dutschland I go!!

[nebula]

4. I never wanted to go back to the states again

after my first trip to Hamburg Germany. This was back in 97 when I was still in high school.
I stayed with some German friends of my parents for 3 months over the summer. Even at that age I sensed the contrast between Europe and America, in terms of the people, culture, etc. like night and day. When I got home, I felt depressed for months because California seemed so shallow, plastic, and soulless compared to my experience there. Every American I met that has spent significant amount of time in Europe understands exactly how I feel because they feel the same way! I currently live in Toronto which to me has a similar European feel to it. I wouldn't go back to to the US for all the money in the world!

[Nay]

6. Mr Nay and I feel the same about Canada. We relax the minute we

cross the border. I can't compare it to Europe since I've never been to Europe, but I imagine the feeling is similar. We feel like we're leaving a mess behind.

[nebula]

15. Escape from the hell hole while you can

Only in America:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB_Hl4bcQNc&feature=related

[Divernan]

45. Perfect description - Cross the Canadian border & relax.

It's the same whether Quebec City or Victoria, BC - I first visited Canada back in the 70's, and have always loved it - it's a quality of life the US could have had if we hadn't devoted our national wealth to waging war/maintaining huge military forces/war profiteering and naming ourselves policeman to the world.

[Tesha]

106. Mr. Tesha and I joke that "Montreal is just like Europe but you don't need voltage converters." (NT)

[SoCalDem]

5. Our son lived in Florence & went to college there

he LOVED it..bicycled everywhere, took the trains all over Europe.. He loved the pace of the place & the people.. The only thing he was not crazy about was the food.. but then a college kid has different tastes..

[CTyankee]

35. He didn't like the food in ITALY???

That seems so unbelievable to me! Particularly given the fact that pizza and pasta are loved by college kids here, so it's not like Florence would offer weird foods to an American youth! I am astonished!!!

[SoCalDem]

36. He made me send him an 80 pound care package

with his favorite cereal & cookies & peanut butter etc..

He commented that he could be RICH if he had some "real bacon" & "old fashioned cheddar cheese"..apparently his fellow american students were craving those things..

he was on a limited budget (for obvious reasons:eyes: ) so they ate mostly "street food" and food they bought & cooked themselves in their apartment.. he shared an apartment with 2 other guys.. arrow here:

[CTyankee]

39. I can understand the "comfort food" idea, of course.

But the italians do have pasta sauce in jars and the pizza is awfully good too. But perhaps the "stranieri" students are a bit too isolated for their own good. When I was in Perugia in 06 the "stranieri" I overheard/saw in the cheaper cafes were Brits. They seemed to be having a ball...

[SoCalDem]

41. He met some Canadian hockey players on holiday and spent

some "quality" time with them ..they were "home-based" on the Riviera somewhere.. needless to say, he did not elaborate to Mom about all their adventures..

Oddly, the place he liked BEST was Budapest :)

he rail-passed all over Europe..and even left my BRAND NEW CAMERA in Pompeii..:grr:

but whaddaya-gonna-do.. he's a great kid who had a wonderful adventure..

he's getting married in May, and their honeymoon is Europe & a greek cruise for a month,.. he caught the travel bug :)

[Runcible Spoon]

78. don't underestimate the craving for sharp Vermont cheddar!

signed,

a *mostly* well-fed expat in Buenos Aires still getting US care packages of cheddar and Reeses Pieces :evilgrin:

[SoCalDem]

85. He wanted the Costco-sized jars of peanut butter

and Velveeta (eeew) and an assortment of cereals..(which I found out later he SOLD for $1 a bowl) to his flatmates :rofl:

[bpeale]

103. the germans love velveeta & sell it in those triangular wedges everywhere

[Diclotican]

7. Yavin4

Yavin4

I don't know if we are a utopian for the rest of the world.. And not a utopian world for american. The interesting part is that US was the promised land for many european who was tired, poor and was living in poor condition in the old days.. Now american are the one who believe Europe to be the utopian world of promise?.. Hm what historic irony...

I don't which country you want to live in. Many european country have their plus, and their minus, and even as a european, I am in no position to say which country is the best.. Even that Denmark, Sweden and Norway, with Finland and Island is doing it great the last coupe of years...

I believe you would have a fine time here in Europe, if you ever want to emigrate to europe. I just hope you would could settle down, in a country of you own choice, and that you, and maybe your family would be here for a long time. We need good educated people here too:)

If you ever decide to travel to Europe, regardless of country, I would guess you are welcome;)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[hifalutin]

8. Spain, Spain, Spain!

Beautiful people, beautiful food, beautiful country.

I'm English and will never, ever again go back to my homeland even though my family is there.

[Ganja Ninja]

47. I've been to Spain and Scotland.

If I had to choose between the two it would be Spain hands down. If only for the weather alone. Scotland was pretty but it's like going to Canada. Once you get tired of dealing with the elements the only thing left to do is drink.

[Swamp Rat]

95. ¡Por supuesto!

I LOVE Barcelona, cataluña. :loveya:

[2Design]

9. kicking up to keep track n/t

[RainDog]

10. Some of my experience

I was married to someone from Belgium, so my take is a little different than someone going there w/o "native" contacts. I think there are differences from country to country - there is no "Europe" per se, but maybe a "European" aesthetic.

Since I'm a female and I cook, etc. I'll start with this stuff-

Fast food isn't a big part of most ppl's lives. There are certain traditions that take the place of this, like making soup and having breads with various cheeses or meats. But fast food isn't a big part of most ppl's lives because fast food is so inferior to what ppl want to eat. Family meals for events last for hours with many courses and even getting up in between until another course is ready. My ex's family wasn't rich. This is just the way things are done with everyone I knew. the goal is "gezellig" or that happy feeling to be with people you enjoy, with good food, with children and adults existing all together.

Or, "fast food" isn't our version, but a stand up table with a grilled or cold cheese sandwich. (usually cheeses and meats are eaten as separate sandwiches, but there are croque monsieurs, etc. ham and cheese (or is that croque madame?)

When ppl go places they eat a meal in a place, again, rather than fast foodie sorts of things here. Parents can buy beer or wine at the playground because Europeans do not think Jesus Christ will hate you if you have a glass of wine. The legal age to drink is 16. Instead of school sports, there are clubs for sports or dancing or whatever... school is about academics. The clubs, sports, dancing, etc. all sell beer or wine. Of course, Belgium has a tradition of 100 diff. beers... this, again, isn't the moral issue that some make it here. I cannot imagine anyone there acting so belligerent about smoking like ppl on this forum. It would just be considered nutty.

Graciousness is easier. Whenever you visit someone, you buy flowers from the many, many shops on streets -- or a small box of Belgian chocolates (called pralines - what we know of as Godiva) at one of those little shops. These things are not outrageously expensive.. there are chocolatiers with diff. prices. Neuhaus or Godiva will be more expensive, but Leonidas is a good, more affordable brand. These aren't a pound of candy, either. Things don't have to be big to be special or good.

People do not shop in bulk for fruits and vegetables, for the most part, because fresh ones are available at small markets all over the place. We used to go to a big grocery store once a month for non-perishables that we stored in an unheated cellar. Meats and veggies, etc. were bought every few days. Refridges are small. Food used to be subsidized. Don't know about now.

At least every other morning, more often every morning, ppl will walk to the local (a few blocks) bakery for pastries for breakfast. Continental breakfast - coffee and pastry - and get their daily bread.

Living spaces are smaller than most people know here. One of my s-i-l's was from a wealthy family and they had a big, very modern house, plus a place at the ocean... there are rich and poor people there, just like here, except poor people can go to the doctor and send their kids to decent schools. Unlike here, people tend to like modern styles and clean design - well-designed everyday items too- because so many of the places ppl live in are old. Italy and Sweden are popular for their design - Olivetti, that sort of thing.

Schools are MUCH MUCH harder than here. You have to work to earn a place in a University. When someone graduates with a bac from h.s. there, it's the equivalent of two years of college here. There are "tracks" for students. If you don't like academics, you start to learn a trade at about 16. If you have the grades, you pay for college on a sliding fee scale. Grad schools are, at least last time I checked, better in the U.S. because so much research... but maybe that's changing. Everyday ppl seem to be more well read and aware of world events. But in Belgium, for instance, you could get UK-BBC, Italy-RTF - France canal2, German tv, CNN international... some of those nations dub everything (if it was originally in English- like Germany almost all the time) but others use subtitles.

Washers and dryers are smaller and front loading and most ppl do not dry all their clothes and EVERYONE irons just about everything because of those small dryers, or b/c they air dry things. I never went to a coin laundry, but they're there too, of course. In Belgium, at least, ppl are scrupulous housekeepers... washing the inside and outside of their windows every week, at least. And washing down their doorstoops. I was a major failure in that regard because I have always felt that cleanliness was next to boredom if I were the one doing most of the cleaning.

Gasoline has always been more expensive than here. It's generally possible to walk less than half a mile to get to mass transportation. People walk or ride the subway or tram or train or bike - tho they drive too - just not when it's a short distance to get somewhere because cities are crowded and parking is expensive. That part is probably not that much different than most New Yorkers' lives.

There are lots of holidays, and most of them do not involve giving presents. Instead, they involve family get togethers and meals. Stores are not constantly open, like here. You have to plan to make sure you have things you need on hand.

There are suburbs, but they're not like here with huge expanses of exurb McMansions with huge swaths of grass lawns. The suburbs use small shops that are all over the place for newspapers and cigarettes and toys... cities have diff. sections, too, with these same small-scale bizzes. Of course, Brussels has a huge megaplex shopping area, and now there are discount places outside of cities.. but houses are generally smaller so ppl don't have as much junk floating around. People build/landscape houses to be much more private than here. Most people have some sort of hedges to create private outdoor spaces... that are not huge. People go to parks if they want big spaces.

Elementary school students get out early on Wednesdays and lots of them go home for lunch, still. Mothers work and grandmothers care for children in a lot of cases. I NEVER EVER heard anyone who thought that evolution was something to question. I NEVER EVER met someone who was an "evangelical" - tho they're probably around, but really in the minority. Ppl from there who come here to visit think that American religious tv cannot be real... and if so, it's the strangest freak show in town. Most everyone I knew was either an atheist or a practicing Catholic but not militant about it... ppl participate in things like confirmations, etc. because of family gatherings.

Unions are strong there. The political spectrum runs from far right nationalists to communists. They form govts based upon %s and coalitions. The arts receive more support. Jobs that are shitty here are considered decent jobs here... such as working as a bank teller. Men do these jobs as a profession. They need to speak multiple languages - that they learn starting in elementary school. don't know why such things are diff. Teachers are well respected and well paid. Very much unlike here. People pay a large portion of their income for taxes, but they have good schools, good health care, no fear of eating dog food at retirement, and a pride, among those I knew, that they were civilized and took care of their fellow citizens. Of course there were tensions with ppl who had been brought into the country as guest workers in the 1960s. Belgium has a large Turkish population because of this and many of them maintain a separate culture... one that incorporates their former traditions and new ones. I lived in a mixed community - turks, belgians, and one weird american - in a city and not in a fancy part of town (in Antwerp.) I'm sure there are issues because the nationalists did so well in recent elections.

There is generally more sexual openness w/o the frat boy overtones. They generally have crappy pop music... but still celebrate their own. Lots of American and British music, tho. Outdoor rock concerts are popular. Like here, most ppl go about their everyday lives and don't spend hours in museums unless they're entertaining tourists. But weekends are generally not about work.

My former m-i-l thought my ex was just... strange beyond words when he planned to take a cup of coffee with him to drink in the car on the way to work. You drink coffee for its own thing... and you drive for its own thing.

those are some of the things I remember. others, surely, have had different experiences.

[Yavin4]

12. Thank You Very Very Much For Your Detailed Account

Thank you.

[JCMach1]

18. Disagree with the University part- European institutions are AT BEST

equivalent to American Higher Ed.

Higher Ed. is still one major advantage the U.S. has...

Having said that, it also has headed south in recent years...specifically the Bush years.

[RainDog]

38. Schools

when I said school is much, much harder, I was referring to high school. As someone who lives in Germany noted below, it can be brutal, as far as expectations. My ex has a daughter who lives there and her high school studies required that she take Latin, Greek, English, French and German (my ex's family is Flemish-speaking - so their own literature is another language area.) She had to take math courses that go far beyond most U.S. h.s. requirements. I wouldn't have made it in that system, as far as math. Students go to a university and immediately start specializing in a field... because those first two undergrad years here were done in high school.

I knew a guy here who used to play soccer with my ex who was from Sweden. He came to the U.S. for his undergrad degree because he did not have the grades to get into a U. in his country. His family was rich and could afford this - for those who aren't rich, they go from h.s. into the work force. My ex had nieces and nephews who were not academically inclined and they all work in decent jobs now and have good lives. A university degree isn't necessary to make a living wage.

My ex got his licensiate (undergrad) there and came here for grad school. He received credit for his undergrad work b/c of the level of courses that meant he had a "masters" degree when he got here, with only an undergrad education. He teaches a "hard science" sort of thing here and he has constantly been surprised by the (lower) level of education American undergrads bring with them here. And that students do not expect to have to work hard for grades. That said, he has chosen to live and work here, and not just because he was married to me. But he still has people in Belgium that he works with in research. We lived in Belgium b/c we went there for him to work with others there, but we didn't stay. (and we wanted to do this so that our kids could spend time with his family.)

Grad school, as I noted, is better here. BUT one reason it is better here is that there are so many students from other countries who work as research assts., etc. They are a big part of the reason U.S. universities have been able to get big grants - because they do so much of the research in order to earn their PhDs. The students that come here are financed, generally, by govt. grant programs for studies (with the expectation they will return to their country to give back what they were given) or by funding available in the U.S. - including grants for research.

Now that BushCo has made the U.S. such an inhospitable place for people from other countries, including students, more grad students are going elsewhere, so I've heard. In that case, other places should be upgrading their programs. There have been cases around here where students were no allowed to return to the U.S. after they went home to visit family because they were from a middle eastern nation. People I know who used to come here to collaborate on work at least every six months or so have refused to come here after the stories of people disappearing or being expected to give fingerprints and all the other crap. Some of them have now started coming back here, but they aren't ppl with "funny" sounding names or dark skin.

I ABSOLUTELY agree that you have to learn the language of the country in which you expect to live. Immersion in that language helps tremendously... ppl who come here have to learn to speak English too... it's the same thing. I didn't work while I was there. My kids were in preschool/kgarden and we weren't going to be there forever. But I had taken both Dutch and French language classes before we went there. That doesn't mean I was fluent and totally sure of my language skills, but I had a foundation to work with. (Newspapers are in their languages, but there is also the daily Int'l Herald Tribune in English and the Sunday NYTimes was in bookstores on Tuesdays... Belgium and The Netherlands both have such "small" language groups for their native dutch that they learn other languages b/c most ppl don't learn theirs. If ppl study a language here, it's generally French or Italian or German.

[JCMach1]

90. As A-levels are pretty useless here, both my daughters will start University at 16

While they go to a British system school, A-levels make no sense for an American who never plans to go to university in Britain.

They will either go back to the US, or complete their work here in the UAE (at least their BA or BS).

[Divernan]

43. My dtr. got her bachelor's (economics) from UCD-University College Dublin

When she then did an MBA in the states, she kindly started a tutoring group to help her US classmates grasp the necessary calculus/statistics, because the professors just couldn't teach that area effectively. My daughter had really struggled with math in the US high school level - but in the Irish program had no difficulty at all - and finished her degree with honors

She got an excellent education in Ireland, and at the end of her three years there (she did her freshman year in the States), she had to spend the summer studying to take comprehensive oral and written exams in the fall on her three major areas of study - history, English lit and economics.

Additionally, the Irish university sent econ majors/undergrad students to observe the European Parliament, and to visit banking institutions in London, at no expense to the students. And she had the opportunity to travel all over Europe on holiday - at extremely low cost (hostels, etc). She has since worked for both European & Japanese banks in NYC. Her employers appreciated the fact that she is at ease with multiple cultures and has experienced living abroad.

Every American student should spend at least one semester in a foreign country.

[truebrit71]

49. Sorry but that is complete bullshit....I came here FROM Europe after having left school there...

..and didn't open a book in college for the first year and a half...

[JCMach1]

91. As you probably well know, there are big differences among the school systems in England

Of course, it's the same way in the US as well.

[JackRiddler]

24. Hey Raindog...

Nice account. I agree!

And there are bike lanes - most everywhere. In Northern Europe, that is.

[and-justice-for-all]

31. This read makes me want to pack my suitcase right now!

[bpeale]

104. i lived in germany from 1979 to 1982 & i loved it

my daughter grew up there. it was nothing to see small children drinking beer (the water is undrinkable). the thing i remember most about living in germany is that i felt SAFE there & i felt my daughter was safe there. i could walk the streets at night to meet friends & no one bothers you. i had a great deal of respect for the police & the job they do. i remember when i moved back to the states how paranoid i got when we landed at JFK. i put my 4 yr old on a leash & got nasty looks & comments from fellow americans. the thing i realized was that in germany, the criminals are in jail not on the streets, and so the paranoia i felt was because of u.s. crime & the fact that the criminals run the streets here.

for me, i loved europe for its safety.

[JP Belgium]

40. You are all coming back ???

groeten uit Antwerpen Raindog !

oh, about beers: make that 500+

[RainDog]

52. Dag!

Ik kan niet zo wel Nederlands schrijven, maar wil ik proberen. 'tis laang tijd dat Ik heb in Nederlands ein prachtje machen. Nu ben ik niet trouwen. Ik nog hout van mijn Belgïe familie... (I'm sure this is really weird sounding/reading... Engdutch) Alles in Brussel leven - van mijn man - of Overijse of Leuven... maar vind ik dat Antwerpen het beste is.

Zo, wilt U mij trouwen? Zo dat ik kan in Antwerpen leven? :) Of ein andere friendje? Of iets dergelijks? Ik vind dat in Belgïe beter is te wonen. Gezellig. De godsienst nootjes hier mij krankzinnig machen! Ik ben ein bibliothecaris. Misschien te werken? Maar moet ik beter Nederlands spreken.

Ik kan witloof viele gut maaken.. met potaten croquettjes! (Ik heb ein "croquettjes makker" - de potaten in kleinsnijden. Ook musselen. Mijn kucken is nu ein Belgïe kucken. Of kervil zoup... mijn schoen zuster heft naar kueken school gaan.... alles lekker!

...I hope a little of this made sense! I've continued more with French than Flemish.

tot straks!

[TooBigaTent]

48. Thank you for your wonderful description. It was almost like being back there.

We do have friends in Hasselt whom we visit every four years (they come here in between) and totally agree that having that local connection is key to really understanding and enjoying a different country.

Drinking coffee in the car. One of the things that our friends could not fathom. Having chips or frites WITH a sandwich also stunned them.

One of our friends is a banker who rides his bike to work. Plus, he is an "amateur" chef, so we eat exceptionally well.

We just love the place, and are seriously thinking of retiring there.

Again, thanks for the mental vaca.

[Rosemary2205]

86. How wonderfully generous of you.

I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate the time and care you took to type all that. I found it incredibly informative and entertaining too!

[Clear Blue Sky]

11. The weak dollar makes living abroad quite attractive.

[RainDog]

13. not if you're paid in dollars!

and live there.

[DFW]

27. Got that right!

I have had an effective 60% reduction in the buying power of my take-home
pay since 2001. Being paid in dollars and living in the Euro zone has not
been easy lately.

[Mojorabbit]

14. I lived in the Azores Islands

off the coast of portugal. There was one thing that was hard for me to get used to and that was a lack of personal privacy that you get here. It seems the grapevine was very well developed and people knew your business. One also did not go out without being well dressed. Very different than here in that regard. Still, it was a lovely place to live.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

16. Anybody know anything about Latin America?

I'm asking. Mexico and further south.

[SoCalDem]

42. I lived in Panama for 8 years as a kid... paradise

but probably paradise LOST now.. I have never had the heart to go back & ruin my memories of growing up there..

[Swamp Rat]

93. I love Brazil and Costa Rica

Lived in both countries.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Anybody know anything about Latin America?

I'm asking. Mexico and further south.

[DFW]

28. I have only been to Ecuador and Mexico

I liked visiting both places (especially Ecuador), loved the people,
speak the language pretty much fluently (went to school in Spain),
but the gap between those who have enough to live on and those who do
not is just too great to live comfortably. I hate having armed soldiers
outside restaurants so that armed gangs don't come in and rob you during
the main course.

I have no experience with other countries of the region.

[enid602]

34. Argentina

I'm hoping to move to Argentina soon; the Paris of the Western Hemisphere. Buenos Aires has the largest Italian population of any city in the world. The exchange rate is 3 pesos to one dollar, and what costs 10 bucks here is 10 pesos there. Nice European-style architecture. Huge amount of parks and green spaces. Though I'm not a big meat eater, they have the best beef in the world. Both Atlantic and Pacific (from Chile) fresh seafood.

Unlike European cities, which typically have huge, soulless, stalinistic-style apartment blocks surrounding the picturesque, historic city centers (where most Europeans do not live), Buenos Aires' nightlife extends for miles into the suburbs on Rivadavia, Cordoba, Sta Fe and Corrientes.

Great public transportation. Live theater tickets from $7. Boheme lifestyle, with artists flocking from all over. The 'new Prague.'

[Nay]

84. Brazil. There is a good number of middle class folks, outside the

favelas. I loved the time we spent there, only 2 wks, but my brother lives there and married a Brazilian. He occasionally gets frustrated with the slow way businesses and govt functions, but otherwise likes it. He has returned to the States for a couple of years and is appalled at what is going on here.

[JCMach1]

19. It's not Utopia... I saw some ugly bits of racism there

This was, in some ways, worse than the US.

I really didn't like London at all in terms of livability. Germany, France, and Switzerland had a much better lifestyle. However, housing costs might kill you in Switzerland.

[entanglement]

87. Shouldn't really be a problem unless the OP is a person of color n/t

[JCMach1]

88. Or a Muslim....

[alfredo]

20. Kick.

[DeepModem Mom]

21. We lived in the UK for what we knew was a limited time of a few years. Other Americans...

were opting to stay and settle there, however. They liked the working conditions and the health care, and many considered it a better place to raise their children than the U.S.

[magellan]

22. I'd avoid the UK

I lived there for nearly a decade. The people are great, with few exceptions. But they're being hit very hard by the subprime mess due to Labour's close ties with BushCo's economic policies. They had a real estate boom like us and will suffer a recession too, or worse, I'd bet on it.

Then there's the Big Brother, surveillance everywhere, Nanny-State thing. It's only gotten worse since we left. There are cameras literally everywhere now. Crime was on the uptick and has gotten worse.

Taxes are a killer there. And what the gov't doesn't bleed out of you that way they get locally. Some councils only collect rubbish once every two weeks now, to save money. At the same time you can and will be fined for not putting the lid on your rubbish bin properly, or putting the wrong thing in a recycling container. I wish I were joking. Total nanny state gone mad, it seems.

Gas (petrol) -- Brits currently pay the equivalent of $10.00/gallon. But their real wages are higher than ours, and also about 70% of the price of gas is TAXES.

On the other hand, they've rolled DSL out to the entire country and there's competition between ISPs that keeps the price of access low. Same with electricity/gas -- you can change services as often as you like to get the lowest price.

Entertainment and tv are far and away above the US standard if you don't include the usual mindless crap like Idol. The Brits love good theatre and there's always something exceptional on tap pretty much no matter where you live.

Their election campaigns last weeks, not years!

And while the National health service has its problems, at least you can be seen without worrying about cost. The UK provides benefits to the disabled, unemployed, etc that keep people from landing on the streets.

I wouldn't move back there now, and neither would my British husband. We're thinking the Netherlands or Germany.

[selador]

53. idol

"Entertainment and tv are far and away above the US standard if you don't include the usual mindless crap like Idol."

fwiw was created in england.

it's a british invention

[magellan]

72. I know that.

Many shows we think are American were started in the UK, game shows in particular. Just translated to our audiences. Sadly the dumbing down works in reverse as well.

[RainDog]

61. UK vs. Continent

The UK is definitely different. They still have that pride of empire and, from my experience and from what I've read in the newspapers, they tend to think they're special b/c of their "special" relationship with the U.S. All of the European nations have had their own excursions into empire, of course, and the vestiges of that colonialism are still sources of conflicts over ideals vs. the real.

Europeans I knew liked the UK but didn't want to live in their system. It's different. Really. There is a difference b/t continental europe and the uk. for one thing, the food is drastically better! They all share the same crappy weather in N. Europe, but, as has already been noted here, having lived through two horrific wars that nearly destroyed them all, the Europeans in general (including the UK) seem to have decided that there were better ways and they wanted to find them.

While right wingers here talk about how the Europeans were able to improve their quality of life b/c the U.S. provided their military, the European nations didn't have the same hateful attitude toward Russia... they thought the U.S. fears were overblown. Also, WWII was won because the communists and socialists in W. Eur. fought against the Nazis... the underground resistance in most of those nations was primarily made up of the ultra left. They got rewarded for their help after the war... and they knew that the "aristocrats" and corporate fat cats had more often sided with the Nazis than with the socialists and communists before full war broke out.

I also totally agree that we will never have the level of equality, quality of life, or sense of this as "our" country until we have proportional representation. The two party system and the winner-take-all electoral system guarantees that progress is difficult unless something drastic and horrific happens in this nation... like the great depression or the current Bush regime. Considering the rigged voting schemes here now, I wonder if we'll have representative govt anytime soon.

If the fundies had their own political party, like the Catholics do in Belgium, say, our govt would be far better off because they would have so little power.

[JackRiddler]

23. I lived in Germany 15 years, translator

It's a higher standard of living. Really. Much better working conditions, shorter hours and higher pay for most everyone. If you add the much lower RENT (than New York, anyway!) plus tax plus insurance plus food it works out to the same or better as here. The cities are real cities with organic, enjoyable centers. Nightlife in Berlin and Cologne (the two cities I lived in) rocks, there is an enormous range of cultural offerings, streets are safer and livelier, women walk without fear at night, much better conditions for raising children, excellent public transport everywhere. And people LIKE talking about politics all the time, and are actually educated about shit, on average. They tend to be active on behalf of at least their OWN interests (unlike most people in the U.S.), if not those of others.

(It has a lot to do with real democracy, whatever its defects, which I believe is possible only with proportional representation and more than two parties. Oh, and you have to do the worst criminal and most fucked-up things of all time and be destroyed and then be lucky enough to be the showcase propaganda battlefield in the Cold War so the superpowers want to build your society again along slightly more progressive lines than they have at home.)

I mean, like I always said when asked: expect highways, car-dominated public spaces, bank-dominated economics, supermarkets, televisions, cops, corruption, alcoholics, assholes, idiots, nuts, all that stuff, just like here. It's a pain for foreigners and immigrants in many ways! The society is as racist and consumerist and almost as corporatist (key difference) as here, but it's good for (flexible, outward-looking) Americans if you can find language-related work.

[and-justice-for-all]

29. I am currently learning Deutsch....

If I had to choose one place to relocate, it would be Deutschland.

But I also am aware that there is no paradise, there is really no escape, but you can find relief and better living conditions then what is currently in the States.

[New Dawn]

25. Kick -- good thread.

[BB1]

26. Really? What's it really like?

It's like opening a fresh milk- carton and never have to worry about it being fresh.
It's like travelling to the border and showing your passport and being complimented on the number of stamps you've collected.

It's waking up to the traffic info, and realising there's so many cars on the road - you could get to work just before they close.

It's living in Holland and smoke dope as much as you want. It's being the neighbor and not having to care about the dope.

It's bitching 'bout the government and never ever have to worry somebody will rat on you.

It's about freedom of speech, freedom of (and from) religion, freedom to live within a small space.

It's time for you to find out. Be welcome. I have a really small house, but try and make it over here. You won't be going back.

[selador]

54. complete bull

"It's about freedom of speech, "

anybody who thinks freedom of speech is greater in the EU than the US needs to get their head on straight

complete rubbish.

there are a lot of things i like about europe, but they have nowhere near the freedom of speech we do.

EU has "hate speech" laws. we don't

[truebrit71]

56. Sorry but THAT is complete bullshit....

...or have you NOT been paying attention to the US this last 7 1/2 years?

Freedom of speech...my ass...

[selador]

57. whatever

i pay attention to case law and constitutional law

there is no civil rights attorney familiar with international/comparative law who would claim that speech freedoms are greater in the EU.

because it goes against case law, constitutional law, and common sense. not to mention 16 trillion case law examples

one of the areas where we have MUCH greater freedom is speech

[truebrit71]

58. "whatever" and "16 trillion" lead me to believe that you are full of shit...

...You have obviously NOT been paying attention to the United States since the selection in 2000....

[selador]

59. how relevant?

we are talking free speech and speech law

try to keep up

if you want to ignore case law, constitutional law, etc. in favor of what you want to believe, feel free.

i'll stand by in reality.

it's where i live

[truebrit71]

60. Now it's my turn..."whatever"

...pay attention to the real world kiddo...you ain't as free as you think you are...

[selador]

62. again

ill speak of reality and case law.

you will speak of your dreamworld.

NO person knowledgeable in comparative speech law between the US and EU would claim they are freer

it's inarguable

but again, if you want to live in fantasy world, drop me a line sometimes.

i've heard its nice

[truebrit71]

63. I refuse to continue to have a battle of wits with an obviously unarmed person...

...wake me up after you've started to pay attention to what has happened to the US and it's "freedom of speech" this last 7 1/2 years...

Yeah, I'm the one that's dreaming...:eyes:

[selador]

66. and again

ill pay attention to case law and constitutional law

we have WAY more freedom of speech

[truebrit71]

67. I'll pay attention to reality, punctuation and ignoring ostriches...

....See ya!!

[selador]

69. ignorance of law noted nt

[truebrit71]

70. Ignorance of facts and reality noted...

eom

[Lorien]

65. 16 Trillion? In a country of a little over 350 million?

Lol! Selador has an active imagination, gotta give him that. :rofl:

[Tesha]

107. Selador has a very "America is the greatest" attitude about a lot of things.

They're also quite new here.

Tesha

[Uncle Joe]

80. 16 trillion!? There's only about 6 & 1/2 billion people on the whole planet,

speaking of going against common sense, you didn't just stick your toe in the water, you took a high dive with a triple somersault!

[Lorien]

64. US ranks 53ard in Freedom of it's press, which relates directly to

freedom of speech:

U.S. Rank on Press Freedom Slides Lower

By Nora Boustany
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, October 24, 2006; Page A15

Some poor countries, such as Mauritania and Haiti, improved their record in a global press freedom index this year, while France, the United States and Japan slipped further down the scale of 168 countries rated, the group Reporters Without Borders said yesterday.

The news media advocacy organization said the most repressive countries in terms of journalistic freedom -- such as North Korea, Cuba, Burma and China -- made no advances at all.

The organization's fifth annual Worldwide Press Freedom Index tracks actions against news media through the end of September. The group noted its concern over the declining rankings of some Western democracies as well as the persistence of other countries in imposing harsh punishments on media that criticize political leaders.

"Unfortunately nothing has changed in the countries that are the worst predators of press freedom, and journalists in North Korea, Eritrea, Turkmenistan, Cuba, Burma and China are still risking their life or imprisonment for trying to keep us informed," the organization said in a news release. North Korea holds the worst ranking at 168.

Iran ranks 162nd, between Saudi Arabia and China. The report said conditions in Russia and Belarus have not improved. It said that Russia continued to steadily dismantle the independent media and that the recent slaying of investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya "is a poor omen for the coming year."

Northern European countries top the index, with no reported censorship, threats, intimidation or physical reprisals, either by officials or the public, in Finland, Ireland, Iceland and the Netherlands. All of those countries were ranked in first place.

Serious threats against the artists and publishers of the Muhammad cartoons, which caricatured the prophet of Islam, caused Denmark, which was also in first place last year, to drop to 19th place. Yemen, at 149th place, slipped four places, mostly because of the arrests of journalists and the closure of newspapers that reprinted the cartoons. Journalists in Algeria, Jordan, Indonesia and India were harassed because of the cartoons as well.

Although it ranked 17th on the first list, published in 2002, the United States now stands at 53, having fallen nine places since last year.

"Relations between the media and the Bush administration sharply deteriorated after the president used the pretext of 'national security' to regard as suspicious any journalist who questioned his 'war on terrorism,' " the group said.

"The zeal of federal courts which, unlike those in 33 U.S. states, refuse to recognize the media's right not to reveal its sources, even threatens journalists whose investigations have no connection at all with terrorism," the group said.

Lucie Morillon, the organization's Washington representative, said the index is based on responses to 50 questions about press freedom asked of journalists, free press organizations, researchers, human rights activists and others.

France, 35th, dropped five places since last year because of searches of media offices and journalists' homes, as well as physical attacks on journalists during a trade union dispute, the group said.

In Lebanon, a series of bomb attacks targeting journalists and publishers in 2005, and Israeli military attacks last summer, contributed to a drop in the country's ranking from 56th to 107th in the past four years.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/23/AR2006102301148.html

Countries which allow the most free speech, 2007 rating:


Rank Country Index Notes
2007 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003 2002
1 Flag of Iceland Iceland 0.75 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
1 Flag of Norway Norway 0.75 2.00 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
3 Flag of Estonia Estonia 1.00 2.00 1.50 2.00 2.50
3 Flag of Slovakia Slovakia 1.00 2.50 0.75 0.50 2.50
5 Flag of Belgium Belgium 1.50 4.00 4.00 4.00 1.17 3.50
5 Flag of Finland Finland 1.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
5 Flag of Sweden Sweden 1.50 4.00 2.00 2.00 1.50 1.50
8 Flag of Denmark Denmark 2.00 5.00 0.50 0.50 1.00 3.00
8 Flag of Ireland Republic of Ireland 2.00 0.50 0.50 0.50 2.83 1.00
8 Flag of Portugal Portugal 2.00 3.00 4.83 4.50 5.17 1.50
11 Flag of Switzerland Switzerland 3.00 2.50 0.50 0.50 2.50 4.25
12 Flag of Latvia Latvia 3.50 3.00 2.50 1.00 2.25
12 Flag of the Netherlands Netherlands 3.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
14 Flag of the Czech Republic Czech Republic 4.00 0.75 1.00 3.50 2.50 11.25
15 Flag of New Zealand New Zealand 4.17 5.00 2.00 0.67 2.83
16 Flag of Austria Austria 4.25 4.50 2.50 3.25 2.75 7.50
17 Flag of Hungary Hungary 4.50 3.00 2.00 6.00 3.33 6.50
18 Flag of Canada Canada 4.88 4.50 4.50 3.33 1.83 0.75
19 Flag of Trinidad and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago 5.00 5.00 2.00 2.00 1.00
20 Flag of Germany Germany 5.75 5.50 4.00 2.00 1.33 1.50
21 Flag of Costa Rica Costa Rica 6.50 6.67 8.50 7.63 3.83 4.25
21 Flag of Slovenia Slovenia 6.50 3.00 1.00 2.25 3.00 4.00
23 Flag of Lithuania Lithuania 7.00 6.50 4.50 3.00 2.83
24 Flag of the United Kingdom United Kingdom 8.25 6.50 5.17 6.00 4.25 6.00
25 Flag of Mauritius Mauritius 8.50 8.00 7.50 10.50 7.25 9.50
25 Flag of Namibia Namibia 8.50 6.00 5.50 10.00 11.00 8.00
27 Flag of Jamaica Jamaica 8.63 5.50 7.50 4.17 3.33
28 Flag of Australia Australia 8.79 9.00 6.50 9.50 9.25 3.50
29 Flag of Ghana Ghana 9.00 8.50 15.00 13.50 8.75 23.00
30 Flag of Greece Greece 9.25 8.00 4.00 7.00 6.00 5.00
31 Flag of France France 9.75 9.00 6.25 3.50 4.17 3.25
32 Flag of the Republic of China Republic of China (Taiwan) 10.00 10.50 12.25 14.25 12.00 9.00
33 Flag of Spain Spain 10.25 10.00 8.33 9.00 7.67 7.75
34 Flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina Bosnia and Herzegovina 11.17 5.00 7.00 3.67 6.83 12.50
35 Flag of Italy Italy 11.25 9.90 8.67 9.00 9.75 11.00
36 Flag of the Republic of Macedonia Macedonia 11.50 11.50 8.75 11.25 9.67
37 Flag of Japan Japan 11.75 12.50 8.00 10.00 8.00 7.50
37 Flag of Uruguay Uruguay 11.75 13.75 9.75 10.00 4.00 6.00
Flag of Grenada Grenada 12.00
39 Flag of Chile Chile 12.13 11.63 11.75 10.00 6.83 6.50
39 Flag of South Korea South Korea 12.13 7.75 7.50 11.13 9.17 10.50
41 Flag of Croatia Croatia 12.50 13.00 12.83 11.83 16.50 8.75
42 Flag of Romania Romania 12.75 14.00 16.17 17.83 11.50 13.25
43 Flag of South Africa South Africa 13.00 11.25 6.50 5.00 3.33 7.50
44 Flag of Israel Israel (Israeli territory) 13.25 12.00 10.00 8.00 8.00 30.00
45 Flag of Cape Verde Cape Verde 14.00 11.50 6.00 8.75 8.25 13.75
45 Flag of Cyprus Cyprus 14.00 7.50 5.50 22.00 20.83 pre-2005 data included Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus
47 Flag of Nicaragua Nicaragua 14.25 15.50 15.25 11.67 6.50
48 Flag of the United States United States 14.50 13.00 9.50 4.00 6.00 4.75
49 Flag of Togo Togo 15.17 15.00 23.75 19.50 27.50 31.50
50 Flag of Mauritania Mauritania 15.50 17.50 40.00 51.00 36.67 41.33
51 Flag of Bulgaria Bulgaria 16.25 9.00 10.25 8.00 6.50 9.75
52 Flag of Mali Mali 16.50 9.00 8.00 12.83 11.00 12.50
53 Flag of Benin Benin 17.00 5.50 5.50 5.50 5.25 6.00
54 Flag of Panama Panama 17.88 9.50 15.00 14.50 9.75 15.50
55 Flag of Tanzania Tanzania 18.00 19.82 17.50 14.50 16.50 21.25
56 Flag of Ecuador Ecuador 18.50 15.25 21.75 16.50 7.67 5.50
56 Flag of Poland Poland 18.50 14.00 12.50 6.83 6.17 7.75
58 Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus 19.00 14.50 12.50 22.00 20.83 pre-2005 data included Cyprus
58 Flag of Montenegro Montenegro 19.00 11.50 14.83 20.13 21.33 20.75 pre-2007 data from Serbia and Montenegro
60 Flag of Kosovo Kosovo 19.75 16.00 25.75 20.13 21.33 20.75 pre-2005 data from Serbia and Montenegro
61 Flag of Hong Kong Hong Kong 20.00 14.00 8.25 7.50 11.00 4.83
61 Flag of Madagascar Madagascar 20.00 15.00 24.50 18.50 8.17 22.75
63 Flag of Kuwait Kuwait 20.17 17.00 21.25 31.67 31.33 25.50
64 Flag of El Salvador El Salvador 20.20 10.00 5.75 6.00 6.83 8.75
65 Flag of the United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates 20.25 17.50 25.75 50.25 37.00
66 Flag of Georgia (country) Georgia 20.83 21.00 25.17 27.50 17.33
67 Flag of Serbia Serbia 21.00 11.50 14.83 20.13 21.33 20.75 pre-2007 data from Serbia and Montenegro
68 Flag of Bolivia Bolivia 21.50 4.50 9.67 20.00 9.67 14.50
68 Flag of Burkina Faso Burkina Faso 21.50 16.00 19.00 16.25 18.00 27.75
68 Flag of Zambia Zambia 21.50 22.50 23.00 29.75 23.25 26.75
71 Flag of the Central African Republic Central African Republic 22.50 14.50 19.75 32.50 32.75 21.50
72 Flag of the Dominican Republic Dominican Republic 22.75 12.75 12.25 6.75 17.00
73 Flag of Mozambique Mozambique 23.00 11.50 10.50 16.25 14.00 23.50
74 Flag of Mongolia Mongolia 23.40 19.25 12.50 19.00 18.25 24.50
75 Flag of Botswana Botswana 23.50 13.00 14.00 11.50 13.00
75 Flag of Haiti Haiti 23.50 19.50 33.50 42.13 31.00 36.50
77 Flag of Armenia Armenia 23.63 25.50 26.00 23.50 25.17
78 Flag of Kenya Kenya 23.75 30.25 30.00 22.25 18.50 24.75
79 Flag of Qatar Qatar 24.00 18.00 23.00 32.50 35.00
80 Flag of the Republic of the Congo Republic of the Congo 24.50 17.00 17.00 17.50 14.00 23.17
81 Flag of Moldova Moldova 24.75 19.17 17.50 20.50 27.00
82 Flag of Argentina Argentina 24.83 17.30 13.67 21.33 15.17 12.00
83 Flag of Senegal Senegal 25.00 17.50 19.00 21.50 14.50 14.00
84 Flag of Brazil Brazil 25.25 17.17 14.50 16.50 16.75 18.75
85 Flag of Cambodia Cambodia 25.33 27.25 23.00 36.50 19.50 24.25
85 Flag of Liberia Liberia 25.33 19.00 20.50 40.00 40.00 37.75
87 Flag of Albania Albania 25.50 18.00 14.17 11.50 6.50
87 Flag of Honduras Honduras 25.50 14.50 18.00 11.75 14.17
87 Flag of Niger Niger 25.50 24.50 13.00 18.33 15.75 18.50
90 Flag of Paraguay Paraguay 26.10 18.25 15.50 10.50 7.17 8.50
91 Flag of Angola Angola 26.50 21.50 18.00 26.50 28.00 30.17
92 Flag of Malawi Malawi 26.75 25.50 22.75 31.00 21.00 27.67
92 Flag of Ukraine Ukraine 26.75 26.50 32.50 51.00 40.00 40.00
94 Flag of Côte d'Ivoire Côte d'Ivoire 27.00 25.00 52.25 60.38 42.17 19.00
94 Flag of East Timor Timor-Leste 27.00 18.50 13.50 13.50 5.50
96 Flag of the Comoros Comoros 28.00 22.50 22.00 26.50 18.50 20.50
96 Flag of Uganda Uganda 28.00 29.83 19.25 24.00 25.75 17.00
98 Flag of Lebanon Lebanon 28.75 27.00 28.25 24.38 32.50 19.67
99 Flag of Lesotho Lesotho 29.50 16.00 19.50 29.50 17.75
100 Flag of Indonesia Indonesia 30.50 26.00 26.00 37.75 34.25 20.00

[truebrit71]

68. Please don't confuse selador with cold hard facts..

It makes that "case law" argument seem so silly some how....

[RainDog]

71. maybe people are talking apples and oranges

you do not hear a wide range of political thought here among "pundits," for example. You would not find any American politician who felt he/she could be an atheist and win a national election because the range of "acceptable" beliefs is so narrow here. You would not find any American politician who felt he or she could win a national election with a social-democratic economic policy... the range of "acceptable" debate is too narrow here.

You do not here all sides of a story here. In the last 7 years I have seen, over and over again, that the U.S. news has suppressed stories that are vital to our decisions as a democracy. They have chosen to spout neocon b.s. rather than tell a difficult truth. The U.S. is fully following Leo Strauss' idea that the masses need religion as a narcotic so that the "enlightened" powerful can do whatever they want with an easily malleable populace. American elites are terrified of the U.S. populists because that pov empowers people across the spectrum.. economically, politically, socially. So these sorts of movements are put down (think of Dean's Yeehaw moment... ridiculous bullshit swiftboating by the U.S. press.)

Over the last few years, ppl have had to stay in "free speech" pens when they wanted to protest the govt. I have never seen a "free speech" pen in Europe. I have never seen the numbers come out to protest here that I have seen in Europe because, again, ppl worry about job security for taking a stand, for missing time at work, for having an opinion outside of the narrowly acceptable view of the middle and upper-middle class.

You talk about lawsuits over speech. I know Britain has their state secrets, or whatever, law - but do you think that ppl here are not currently being intimidated over questions of speech? Fleischer's "be careful what you say?" The right wingers who claim you hate America if you detest Bush's foreign policy - even on the grounds that it is stupid real politik?

Instead of the insults back and forth, maybe a better statement of how you see free speech issues... beyond just saying x cases of x.. would help to make for a better discussion.

[annabanana]

81. It seems Selador has left the thread

:rofl:

[Uncle Joe]

82. Self delete due to bug. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

83. I believe this is the true motivation for some of them proposing the elimination

of Internet anonymity. It's much easier for the mega-rich and powerful to attack the messengers with their one way corporate media mega phone to the masses than debate the message or messages based on their own merits. If job security becomes our primary concern, we would be no different than the bought and paid for parrots on our magical television boxes, which beam their poisonous propaganda in to our homes 24/7 without serious, substantial, thinking outside the box, rebuttal.

"I have never seen the numbers come out to protest here that I have seen in Europe because, again, ppl worry about job security for taking a stand, for missing time at work, for having an opinion outside of the narrowly acceptable view of the middle and upper-middle class."

[kryckis]

32. It's not utopia

I live in Sweden and I like it in some ways, hate it in others. I like not having to pay for university, living in a tolerant society and living in a relatively big city while still having only 5 min to the nearest forest hiking trail. Also, where I live at least the air is clean and we flush our toilets with mineral water.

I hate being dictated and nannied, and being tortured through seven months of cold and darkness. I'd like to at least have summer for more than three months.

When I visited the US I think the most striking difference I noticed was the formality of address. I was expected to say "mr" and "mrs" and "professor" or some such. We have none of that in Sweden. I call all my teachers/bosses by their first name and in some cases I have no idea what their last name is.

[Swamp Rat]

94. The darkness AND the lightness

I lived in Norway... hard to sleep when it is light all day and night, and below freezing at night in the Summer. I left for Spain before Winter. :D

[DFW]

33. I have been in Europe for close to 30 years now

I maintain my legal residence back in Texas for a number of reasons ("I hate
paperwork" being one of them), but my wife is European, and she prefers to
live "at home." So, long ago, I asked to be stationed here. I was appointed
station chief for Europe for my outfit after that, so I have had to be here
a lot anyway.

Looking out at the snow-covered (!!!)landscape today, one thing I'll tell you
about the northern part of Europe: the weather sucks! I have lived in Spain and
(briefly) the south of France, and they have it better, weather-wise.

There is no "best" country to live in. It just depends on your tastes. Remember
that there are plenty of Europeans that live in the USA who are fed up with one
aspect or other of their own home countries. Maybe familiarty really does breed
contempt. My wife is German, and geographically, Germany makes a lot of sense
for someone whose "office" is a whole continent. Germany is a real combination
of the best and the worst Europe has to offer. Great public transportation,
decent, though very uneven, education, environmental consciousness (one of their
better American imports), great fresh food (the bread is to die for), a high standard
of living, and decent overall public safety. Downsides are a nation of "Besserwisser"
in their untouchable and all-powerful bureaucrats, who are always right, and you are
always wrong. Their politics are pretty much an eternal Clinton/Obama squabble, and
the pace of progress on almost anything makes a snail look like a Porsche at full speed by
comparison. Their schools are very competitive, designed to smash down kids who need
more time to grasp things, and promote those who are the most aggressive. My two kids
went through the German education system through "Gymnasium" which is the upper level
of their high school, and then fled to America for relief. They are now doing brilliantly
in American colleges, where their professors treat them like people rather than annoyances.

Your economic status plays a role here, too. If you can afford stuff, it's just a great
place to live. The Euro has meant bad inflation, and a cup of coffee that used to cost
1 DM back in 2001 now costs at least 2 Euros, or about 4 DM. Some people got rich off of
the conversion. Some got lost in the shuffle. Public transportation, while usually great,
is also very expensive. Contrary to what I read about other countries, fast food is all
over the place, but not all of it is bad. There are fabulous Turkish Döner Kebap places
with fresh everything, and you can have it spiced up to your liking, and they are very
cheap, even with the high euro.

Countries I would avoid? I can only speak from my own experience, and this will obviously
differ from those who have had better experiences there. I would never live in Poland, Russia
or Romania. I have visited Prague, and it was beautiful, but I have no idea how it is to
actually live there. Organized crime and steet crime are bad in some areas, and increasing
everywhere. Police forces not used to dealing with excessive brutality are not adjusting,
and being a victim is not a pleasant experience. With the borders now open for Romanians
and Bulgarians, gangs of ex-soldiers who live in poverty back home come here to the west
and have ripe pickings, either as professional break-in gangs or as individual street
muggers. I work with people in Law Enforcement in several countries, and they say that
the amount of violent crime committed by Romanians and Bulgarians alone has increased
300% since January 2007, and this is only the amount of reported/solved cases. This will
increase until these countries reach the level of prosperity of the west, and that will not
happen overnight.

I have no experience living in Scandinavia, but Denmark has the rep of being the country
with the most people happy being right where they are. Living in Switzerland must be nice,
too. I have never lived there, but am there often enough, and never yet met a native who
said he wanted out.

One thing you MUST do before even considering moving here: learn the language of the country
(or area) you want to live in. You may hear people tell you "oh, everybody there knows English."
Maybe they do, but it's not their language, and Swedes or Germans do not speak English to
each other. Their newspapers are not in English, and nor are their TV and radio stations.
If you want to live here, be prepared to speak, think, function in another language. If you
want to work here, learn several. I'm sort of an exception (learned German, French, Swedish,
Dutch, Spanish, Catalan, Russian, Italian), as I have to be able to pick up the phone and
talk shop with people who don't speak anything else, but even if you don't strive to be a
walking UN, you have to become close to fluent in the language of the country you are living
in. This involves more than saying "Ein Bier, bitte" at the local bar. I mean picking up the
phone and telling the plumber which pipes are leaking, and how badly, or telling the mechanic
at the garage exactly what kinds of noises are coming from which part of your car.

One thing I did notice: there is a part of America that very much resembles this part of
Northern Europe where I have come to hang my hat: New England. When I have time for a vacation,
and can get away for more than a week, I head for New England. Besides the fact that I can
suddenly afford stuff, the small friendly villages, the relaxed interpersonal traffic with
educated like-minded people, and the open-minded attitudes I find there remind me very much
of Europe, but combined with the familiarity of home. If ever I retire, or settle for a desk
job back stateside, if it is not in the Georgetown section of Washington DC, I will pack up
Texas, and move up to New England. It's no accident that many Europeans visiting the USA feel
most comfortable there.

[CTyankee]

37. Re your last statement: I think that's why Sarkazy (sp?) went to New England

last year on vacation. I think he went to New Hampshire or Vermont (he sure as hell didn't come to Connecticut, nor did he need to!).

[DFW]

46. Sarkozy (you were close!) went to NH

Lake Winnipesaukee. I've been there. It's gorgeous, and he probably chose it for its wooded
areas and secluded cottages. Less access by prying reporters with telephoto lenses. I prefer
Cape Cod and its tiny villages and open stretches of beach, which in Europe tend to be over-
crowded, pay-access, or full of wall-to-wall snack stands and lounge chairs. On the ocean
side of the outer Cape, there is a 30 mile stretch of pure beach, protected as a national
park (Cape Cod National Seashore--thank you JFK!), and, as Joni Mitchell once sang, "nobody
calling me up for favors, no one's future to decide," although, ironically enough, she sang
it about Paris.

[CTyankee]

73. I haven't been to the Cape for awhile. We go to Martha's Vineyard

and love South Beach. It's very natural, tho the Atlantic is a bit rough there so I'm always scared for my granddaughters! I've stayed at a tiny B & B in Edgartown, which I love eventho it is crowded in early July when we go. Even the ferry over from Woods Hole is a kind of tradition, altho recently I've been taking the catamaran from Quonset Point in RI. It's closer to CT, however, the ride is sometimes VERY rough (they sell dramamine on board the ferry!).

I can see Sarkozy in a Black Dog T shirt now... :-)

[Laughing Mirror]

96. Sarkozy went there because it's for the ultra rich and to eat burgers with the Bushes, his idols

The Bushes live nearby.

The little idiot Sarkozy then came back to France saying he'd been to the heartland of the America, as if some exclusive resort in New Hampshire represented life on depressed and depressing Main Street, USA.

[Divernan]

44. Lots of vacation time (3 weeks for new employees) plus bank holiday weekends

[KatyMan]

50. Expensive, at least in SE England

So expensive, in fact, that we're moving, probably to Ireland, but as a last ditch resort, back to Houston. My wife and I both make excellent salaries here, but the cost of rent, travel (especially trains), food, etc means that we don't have the money to do what we came here for, mainly travel. So, we're thinking of packing up and heading to Ireland (where we've lived before, and we're both citizens), saving up enough British pounds that the conversion to Euros will give us a good start, and hopefully cheaper way of life. As I said, we've already spent a few years in Ireland, and we know it's expensive, but not near the cost of SE England!

[Jennicut]

51. I have lived in CT all my life and love New England in general

I have never been to Europe, just to the Caribbean. I loved growing up in New England. Going to Mystic Seaport in the summers. Visiting Plymouth and Salem in Mass, went there in grade school, very historical. New Hampshire and the White Mountains are beautiful. My father in law is from there. Vermont is one of the least populated states in the country and has lush beautiful landscape. Both NH and Vermont are very spread out and have lovely small towns throughout. I love Maine as well. Lots and lots of forest. Unfortunaely, Connecticut is the 4th most densely populated state and we are the second smallest state. Its crowded here. Heavy congestion, the highways are backed up especially on I-95 near New York (my least favorite part of the state-too many people) and parking lots and stores are always packed. Very expensive to live here as well. Every inch of livable space is being used up for new houses. But I would find it hard to leave here. I love the 4 seasons, the small towns, the historical feeling. A lot of New England is on a smaller scale than the rest of the United States.

[CTyankee]

74. Where in CT do you live? I am in New Haven.

I love living in New Haven, where I've been since 1985. I worked in the Bridgeport area for 4 years but couldn't wait to get back to a job in New Haven. Bridgeport was depressing and I felt bad for it, but I didn't feel like I had much in common with my coworkers. New Haven has lots of cultural offerings and some extremely bright and interesting people...

[Jennicut]

98. I grew up in Cheshire, not far from New Haven, live in Terryville now

I actually worked in New Haven for awhile right after college. I worked for SBC (now AT&T). I liked New Haven. I had friends from there when I went to college and there was always something interesting to do there. You are right about Bridgeport. I had a good friend from there when I went to Central CT State U. He was very poor. He was a young black man from Bridgeport, I was a young white woman from Cheshire (which I bet you know is a very hoity-toity town, like Greenwich). We got along great and I stayed friends with him for a long time. When he came to Cheshire he did feel a bit out of place but we just ignored everyone's looks. I had hoped that in New England of all places that people would be more openminded and the fact that it was 1996. Not so. We went down a bike path that the whole town seems to seek out in the summer. I heard an older woman say that we don't get his kind around here that often. I wanted to slap her but we decided to just ignore her and stay above it all. I met my husband at Central and we eventually moved to Terryville which is near Bristol. More towards Route 8 in the Northeast corner of the state. My parents are still in Cheshire so I'm down there quite a bit with their granddaughters. We moved to Terryville because of the house prices. My husband is from Southington but it was just impossible to find a starter house for two people out of college in Wallingford, Cheshire, or Southington. My husband has a band and plays Toads Place once and awhile. New Haven rocks!

[CTyankee]

99. I don't know Cheshire, but I do know Greenwich.

I raised money for Planned Parenthood in Greenwich. I would say Greenwich is in a class by itself, tho. Not even New Canaan, where I also raised money, was in Greenwich's league. The Shah of Iran had a house there, the Rockefellers had a gorgeous estate there -- Ned and Annie Lamont live "next door" to it on Ashton Place. Dick and Cindy Blumenthal are on a lovely street, Clapboard Ridge Road, not far from the Belle Epoch mansion built by the founder of Bic Pens, now owned by a wonderful supporter of PPC. We used to have the Greenwich version of a "house party" each spring as fundraisers and charge $1,000 a person to attend. Quite the thing with valet parkers all lined up with umbrellas handy, magnificent catering by top people in Manhattan, great entertainers. Always a huge tented area in back of the mansions. Those were interesting experiences!

I'm retired now so my ambit is mostly New Haven, with ventures to the Boston area where my granddaughters live, and some training into Manhattan for museum exhibits. Yale has lots of things for retirees to attend and some great museums, as you probably know well. I know that building where you must have worked...

[Jennicut]

100. Cheshire does not have famous people but it is rich and snotty-I wouldn't want to move back LOL

It was too much for me-too much competition in high school. Kids drove BMWS to school and their parents all had summer homes. New clothes worn everday. It was not an easy place to grow up and go to high school. I was considered middle class and my parents just had a normal raised ranch built in the early 70's. That was before things got out of hand. Probably more like New Canaan I guess. I like living in Terryville now. Its a small town, everyone is down to earth and there is more of a feeling of community here. That being said, the schools in Cheshire were very good. Yale has lots to do. I just took my 2 and 3 year old daughters to the Peabody Museum in New Haven, the girls loved it.

[CTyankee]

101. I worked across the street from the Peabody when PPC's headquarters were in a historic

house. They've since moved up Whitney Avenue.

I like to take any out of town liberal friends to the building that was the PPC office when police raided it, starting the Griswold v. CT landmark SC case. Also, I take them to see the replica of the Amistad when it is docked in New Haven Harbor.

In April I am taking a course with the Institute for Learning in Retirement on historic landmarks of New Haven. I love stuff like that, uncovering places that have wonderful histories. The New Haven Green is terrific for that...

[Xenotime]

55. It's pretty nice if you want to get away from *

[Aristus]

75. One thing I really liked about Germany was that outside of the big cities,

there's really very little sprawl. Small towns and villages have very well defined town limits. Once you're out of town, you're out of town. No miles and miles of exurban strips, with tire shops, lube joints, fast-food restaurants by the double dozen. No thousands upon thousands of cookie-cutter houses in endless cul-de-sacs with no way in or out. Usually just lovely open road until the next village. Most clusters of small towns and villages have their own churches, schools, restaurants, breweries and so on.

Also, the Germans work very hard, but don't seem to be obsessed with their jobs or "getting ahead". The weekends are sacrosanct. When the stores close on Saturday afternoon, that's it until Monday morning. Saturday and Sunday in a small town can be as quiet as a tomb. I loved it there. I kind of want ot retire there.

[JDPriestly]

76. i lived in 5 European countries for various periods of time,

at least a year in each. We lived on the economy of the country in which we were -- working or on fellowships. Each country is unique. It depends on you and your nature and temperament. Different locales in different countries appeal to different people. For example, Paris is Paris, it isn't Strasbourg. You might like Strasbourg, but not Paris or the other way around.

You have to go and find out for yourself what country you like best.

I should add that utopia exists only in the imagination of ivory tower philosophers. After so many years in Europe, I am very happy to live in the U.S. in spite of the stupidity. But, with the internet, you can live in the U.S. and access the European press. The key is to live overseas long enough to master a couple of important languages. I learned French and German and knowing those languages gives me a better perspective on everything.

[skooooo]

79. Europe is VERY crowded...

That's the only thing I don't like about it much.

[Swamp Rat]

92. GO!

jetz! :D

[WilliamPitt]

97. Yankees suck.

Literally. ;)

[bpeale]

102. i absolutely loved Germany & lived there for 3.5 years

there are very few countries in europe i wouldn't like living in. YMMV

[odelisk8]

105. Bruges

or Paris...