8 Teens In Beating Case To Be Tried As ADULTS

[flvegan]

Class(y) picture time:



LAKELAND Eight teenagers will be tried as adults on charges including kidnapping in a beating that was videotaped for posting on YouTube and MySpace, according to the state attorney's office in Polk County.

All eight face charges of kidnapping, which carries a penalty of up to life in prison, and misdemeanor battery, said Chip Thullbery, spokesman for the state attorney's office.

Three also face a felony charge of witness tampering. They are Brittni Hardcastle, Brittany Mayes and Mercades Nichols, all 17.

The other defendants are April Cooper, 14; Kayla Hassell, 15; Cara Murphy, 16; and Stephen Shumaker and Zachary Ashley, both 18.

The eight are scheduled for a first court appearance tomorrow in Bartow, Thullbery said.

On Sunday, the sheriff's office arrested and charged the teenagers in an attack on Victoria Lindsay, 16. The six girls, all students at Mulberry High School, took turns beating Lindsay, and the two men acted as lookouts, investigators said.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/10/8-teens-be-tried-adults-polk-beating-case/

[madfloridian]

1. The judge put a gag order on those involved.

The sheriff is furious, the media are suing to get it overturned. Saw it on the news, haven't looked for an article. Sheriff Grady Judd is disappointed, he was getting lots of attention.

[DJ13]

2. All the video clips on YouTube have been yanked too

[MisterHowdy]

201. good.

This video, and others like, shouldn't have been on youtube in the first place.

n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

3. Maybe they wouldn't have gone so wrong if their parents

had given them real names.

[CatWoman]

6. lol

i had the same thought.

what's with all the "brittneys"???

[Iris]

61. Nice one! I was thinking the same thing. But also thinking how girls' names can be so trendy and

f-uped. The boys' names are fairly normal.

[yellerpup]

106. Or even been able to spell. eom

[Matariki]

169. Naming your kid after an expensive car is just asking for a personality disorder

LOL

I admit, I had the same thought...

[callous taoboy]

235. My name is Edsel. I am a spectacular failure. n/t

[NashVegas]

226. Named Them After Soap Opera Characters?

[izquierdista]

4. These are adults?

[CatWoman]

7. the crime(s) certainly was/are.

[Mike Daniels]

242. That's the crux of it

This wasn't some youthful indiscretion or spontaneous beat down.

This was planned, the victim was lured to the house and then held against her will. If a thirteen year old committed these crimes I'd be totally fine with them being charged as an adult.

[otherlander]

8. Old enough to know better.

[kestrel91316]

34. Most definitely.

[aikoaiko]

5. Do they still have work camps in FL? Chain gangs?

They're young. They could make big ones into small ones for a long time.

[my2sense]

12. Totally Agree

These little hellions need to some hard labor. The latest video beating was that of a teacher, Jolita Berry - what's next? It seems our youth are out of control and fear nothing.

[PVnRT]

9. Good

I don't normally like kids being tried as adults, but what these swine did is reprehensible.

[LeftyMom]

10. Can we try the one girl's parents for naming her Brittni?

:eyes:

[CatWoman]

13. YES!!!!

:rofl:

GMTA

[SoCalDem]

79. I have a friend named Dacron

He always laughs and says that his Mom must have been under the influence of anesthesia, and was reading the label on her nightgown :)

[Jed Dilligan]

18. Mercades is even worse IMO.

[LeftyMom]

23. I wasn't sure if that was a legitimate ethnic variation on that name,

but if they were trying to name the kid after the car, I say we put them up against the wall too.

[Brewman_Jax]

24. Little known fact--the car was named after the kid

http://www.directmercedes.co.uk/about-heritage.aspx

From the site: In 1900, Emil Jellinek, the Daimler distributor for Austria-Hungary, France and Belgium ordered 36 of the latest more powerful Daimlers. He had one stipulation, that they be named after his twelve-year-old daughter Mercedes. Improbable as this sounds, the board agreed to this arrangement. The rest, as they say, is history.


Mercedes is a recognized girl's name in Europe.

[LeftyMom]

31. I know. That's why I was wondering if the misspelling was a real name.

Then again, knowing parents these days, $5 says she's got a little sister named Porsha or Lexis or something.

[BeachBaby]

239. Or Ram. Or Viper. Or HUMMER.

:hi:

[krkaufman]

199. Also the name of the main female character in 'Count of Monte Cristo' ...

... which slightly predates the automobile.

[Hannah Bell]

211. It's a recognized name here, too. mercedes mcambridge, the

famous actress, born 1916.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_McCambridge

[kestrel91316]

36. I hate when people can't even spell their own names right......

I mean, that's what goes through my mind when I see innovative or even nonsensical spellings of common names. Do they do it to attract attention, or out of ignorance?

[Jed Dilligan]

59. Usually it's something along the lines of

"We like Mercedes, but we really like Katie too. So..."

[roguevalley]

140. These are real names. Truly

All of them have the last name Lee.

1. Maranatha Jubilee
2. Sojourner Fortruth
3. Hallelujah Amen
4. Fire-In-The-Belly-Of-The-Lord

There are two more in that family but I forgot them.

I also know these two kids:

Alcan Sunrise Brinkerhoff
Truckin' Along Cedarhome

[Jed Dilligan]

147. Number four suggests the acronym Fitbotl (pronounced Fitbottle)

which sounds like a Hobbit surname to me.

[blondeatlast]

236. My sister works in a hospital pharmacy and filled a scrip for--wait for it, she swears it's true:

LaTrine (as the first name). Obviously she can't reveal the entire name, but LaTrine--spelled that way, too.

Guess mom and dad never wtched M*A*S*H.

One hopes she will NOT go into the military--oh, the humanity!

[YOY]

22. Nothing says "Vapid" like being named for part of a country you could not locate on the map

and I'm going to guess that one is pretty vapid.

[jody]

11. They obviously grew up in a hostile environment caused by society and are not responsible for their

crimes. :sarcasm:

[WinkyDink]

247. Depraved onaccounta they're deprived.

[malaise]

14. I saw that beating on the news

young people are following the tone set by Bush and Cheney - just saying!

[aikoaiko]

16. They probably don't even know who Bush and Cheney are

They probably don't even know there is a war in Iraq.

[Ezlivin]

15. Yet adult criminals who caused the deaths of thousands live without fear of prosecution

Imagine if Stephen Schumaker and Zachary Ashley were politicians who repeatedly violated the Constitution and lied to lead us into war which caused tens of thousands of deaths. If that was all they had done, they'd be free right now, perhaps sipping cognac and enjoying a fine cigar.

Perhaps these young hooligans will learn that to be a successful career criminal you must first wrap yourself with the flag.

[lpbk2713]

17. They oughtta let Stephen go. He doesn't belong in that crowd.

Not with a normal name.





:sarcasm:

[Triana]

19. FLORIDA again. WTF is IN the water down there? (n/t)

[DesEtoiles]

222. Eau de Jeb

[midnight]

20. There is certainly something wrong here.

What a wast of time. We have 18 year olds dieing in this war so they can perhaps go to college-if they survive. Make them do community service where they have to help rebuild homes,not pick up trash. Or do we lock them up? I would be curious to know what you guys think.

[DCKit]

21. Eight 14-18 year olds who though beating someone severely so they could post a video on U-Tube...

doing community service? Shirley! You jest. They'd be stabbing homeless people and small animals to death with their pointy litter sticks in no time.

[Xenotime]

257. Did they kill anyone? No. So what's the big deal.

This happens all the time and it is never given any attention. But because there was a camera there..>WELL NOW WE HAVE A PROBLEM?!?! WTF

[Mz Pip]

27. Waste of time?

I think we can multi-task on this one.

Perhaps they should be required to enlist when they turn 18 so they can fight for their right to post crap on youtube. :sarcasm:

[Divernan]

87. The Army would snap them up to assign them to Guantanamo

Torture, Sergeant? Yes sir!

[sniffa]

142. No. Have them get the shit beat out of 'em, and knocked unconscious

and have the video posted online for humiliation. Maybe then it will be alright.

And what the fuck does this have to do with Iraq? That card doesn't have to be played for everything.

[anitar1]

220. And be sure and damage their hearing and eyesight.

The Garcia woman who was defending her daughters actions , said the the victim was "asking for it", in an article I read yesterday. They all sound like vicious little pea brains.

[Mike Daniels]

244. These "kids" don't belong in society

You think community service is sufficient punishment for what these "kids" did to someone else.

[geardaddy]

25. I was in Tampa once

It seemed like quite the seedy place.

[flvegan]

26. This was in Lakeland (next county over)

But parts of Tampa could best be describes as seedy, yes.

[BreweryYardRat]

56. "Seedy" is an understatement for parts of this place. n/t

[timtom]

28. Good!

Ya know, there comes a time in a person's life when they realize, oops! shouldna done that!

I'm thinking of Nathanael Brezeal (sp?), a middle-schooler, who, on the last day of class before summer vacation, got pissed off, went home and got a gun, and came back to school and ended up murdering a very popular teacher. I don't think he meant to do that. But he had plenty of time to analyze the wisdom of his plan. And still he did it. I can safely bet that, as the teacher fell to the ground, the lad had an "oops" moment. "I've just fucked up the rest of my life, the life of the teacher, and the teacher's wife and small children."

Every punch, every kick each that those evil little clowns delivered to Victoria Lindsay was pre-meditated. The video recording was pre-meditated.

I'm not sensing an "oops" moment here.

[drmeow]

29. Their trial should be videotaped

and posted on YouTube and MySpace

[depakid]

258. That would be interesting- except that court TV is now "tru tv"

and plays "cops" and other sensationalistic video in that vein for your amusement.

[TheUniverse]

30. So these 14-17 year olds are adults now.

Can they vote? Can they buy alcohol? Can they get a driver's license now? (the ones under 16) Or are kids only adults when ever they do something wrong. I wonder how long its gonna be until two 15 year olds get caught having sex and they both get charged with child molestation as adults and get locked up for 20 years. I bet it will happen someday.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

37. Does the ability to smoke and drink

make one an adult?

The differences in child and adult statues are there because they are trying to separate out the foolishness of youth.

The foolishness of youth would have been if the girls had just jumped the other girl in the hallway, Ill give them a pass on that (in so much as it could be argued they are 'kids'). But when they organized a kidnapping, recorded beating of a peer they clearly crossed the line, that even a 16yo should have known, was not to be crossed.

[kestrel91316]

38. They are "old enough to know better", as we old fogies like to say.

[TheUniverse]

40. If they are "old enough to know better" than they are old enough to vote.

Thats what I would say. I would especially not like to see this 14 year old have her life ruined. Shes facing life in prison.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

47. Lets examine that

Would a normal 14yo know shooting someone is wrong?

Does a normal 14yo fully understand the responsibilities of voting? The issues at hand?

[TheUniverse]

51. answers.

"Would a normal 14yo know shooting someone is wrong? " Correct a 14 year old should know a shooting is wrong. Thats why I believe if a 14 year old shoots someone he should be charged with a crime. But charged as a juvenile because that is what he is.

"Does a normal 14yo fully understand the responsibilities of voting? The issues at hand? " No but neither do most adults.

[Hugabear]

69. The victim may have already had her life ruined

Still can't see out of one eye, and can't hear out one of her ears.

This was a premeditated kidnapping and ambush. She could have very easily been severely brain damaged or even killed during this vicious attack. These were six girls beating a defenseless victim.

[roguevalley]

148. there was a time when assholes were kicked out of the tribe and

made to repent in the wilderness. the problem now is we don't give real consequences to assholes because they are 'kids'. These idiots did a terrible pre-meditated act of terrorism to a single girl and they need to face REAL consequences. The shitheads.

[Mike Daniels]

248. She should face life in prison....

Do you honestly see or perceive this beating as a "youthful indiscretion" or "kids will be kids" type thing?

[Deja Q]

127. Children are to learn and adapt to a society. Not be pissy little anarchists, beating up others.

Take your trite bullshit back to the farm. Maybe the crops will grow bigger.

Forgive me, but your argument is so ridiculous. We also have drivers, aged 16, who misuse adult responsibilities such as driving and play games like "chicken" and do other things to cause trouble, not giving a damn about others' lives. With games like that, I'd almost hope they'd hit a tree because I am sick and tired of hearing about so many atrocities committed by children.

Possibly because their parents were children when they got pregnant. :think:

There are other viewpoints. Many we've forgotten.

[roguevalley]

146. who gives a fuck if they can vote? They are old enough to corner a

girl and beat her half to death. She can't see in one eye and hear in one ear. that is forever. These are fucking criminals who asked the police at the station if they would be getting out to go to cheerleader practice. One asked if they could get out in time for vacation. One of these shits had her mother blaming the victim. Fuck that. Try them as adults and make them pay the price of their behavior. If they can do this at this age, I fear the future from them. Save your pity for someone who deserves it.

[SOteric]

184. The origins of trying juveniles as juveniles

is founded on the concept that some are too young to a) establish right from wrong and b) hold an awareness of the consequences of their actions.

It's one thing to try a couple of 10 year old boys as juveniles because they were, for instance, playing with matches and hadn't yet developed the forethought that would enable them to realise they were about to burn down a building.

It's quite another to take a group of young women, most of them 16 & 17, who by their actions (posting look outs/uploading video to YouTube) showed an awareness of wrong-doing and of the consequences of their actions.

I agree that the courts in our country often go too far in trying young offenders as adults in order to make some political statement for the careers of ambitious attorneys. But I don't believe the lines should every be drawn in a strict way by age. It really needs to be determined on a case by case basis; and I see this as a case where it's entirely valid and appropriate to try these young women as adults.

I'm not convinced any of them deserve life imprisonment over the charges, but I acknowledge that the case for kidnapping will likely be harder to make and cause to impose the maximum sentence seems unlikely.

[Pithlet]

254. The problem with case by case basis

Is the teens who's crimes get publicity and millions are crying for their head on a platter are probably going to be a lot less likely to be judged juveniles. They're also more likely to be the victims of political pressure because the trend seems to be "Kids these days are out of control!" in the media. It's too arbitrary. All people under 18 deserve equal treatment under the law. If we've established juvenile courts in deference to the fact that people under 18 aren't fully mature, then all defendants under the age of 18 are entitled to it. The severity of the crime shouldn't matter. We don't (or shouldn't) try mentally ill people as sane just because the crime is so heinous. It's the same principle.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

32. other than the 14 and 15 yo I dont see the problem..

[TheUniverse]

33. Do you not see the problem in that they dont have adult rights?

Our society thinks they dont have the proper thinking ability to vote, but our society feels that children should have to have the full responsibilities of an adult despite their lack of adult rights.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

42. Well to be fair

Society at large thinks 15yo's are mature enough to pick out a sexual partner
Society at large thinks 15yo's are mature enough to hold jobs
Society at large thinks many things are within the realm of a 15yo

As to voting, you have to draw the line somewhere BTW there are adults who cant vote as well are they still adults?

Were this a lesser offense (a one on one fight, or even a spontaneous fight with worse odds) I would think trying them as adults would be unforgivable but this was:

1) Premeditated
2) Continuous
3) Done for fun
4) Recorded and shown to the world

I hope they throw the little punks in jail with the Minimum sentance that an adult would receive.

[Beausoleil]

45. They do have the rights that all adult criminals have

trial by a jury
to be represented by counsel
to face their accusers
against self-incrimination
etc.

They are old enough to be aware of the consequences of their actions.

Looks to me like they voted, alright - to jeopardize their futures. It was unanimous.

Just because you may be 14 doesn't give you the right to commit adult crimes and not face adult consequences.

Especially if the sole purpose was to post a video of your crime on Youtube.

[flvegan]

49. Well said.

I think a lot of folks aren't quite getting the definition of "tried as adults".

[Beausoleil]

57. I don't understand why people think that children have no rights.

Just because you are not old enough to vote doesn't mean you have no rights.

[PVnRT]

232. No one is saying that

Please try reading the arguments that have been posted in response to you. No one is saying they don't deserve rights.

[cynatnite]

54. That's bullshit...

They are denied the right to vote in an election, drink, serve in the military because they are not adults. The law says they're not mature enough to be able to do those things responsibly so they bar them from it.

So, when a kid breaks the law...all of a sudden, it's convenient to ignore the fact she is a minor just so she can be punished far more harshly than what a minor would nomrally get.

It makes zero sense.

[Dr. Strange]

62. Kids aren't being tried as adults for everything.

It usually has to be something pretty serious (like a violent crime) before they get tried as adults. Kids don't have full rights, and they don't have full responsibility in terms of obeying the law. (You don't see kids being sued for breach of contract very often for example.)

[Beausoleil]

65. No, it's not bullshit

They will have all the rights afforded adults when they commit crimes.

You know it's not about severity of punishment, it's about the severity of the crime.

They are old enough to know right from wrong. They are not three-year-olds.

Look, I'm not saying that underage criminals should in all cases be tried as adults. This is a case of eight teen-agers who decided to commit a crime for the publicity. It wasn't an accident, there's no gray area here. The potential to be tried as an adult should act as a deterrent. And 14 and 15 year olds should know what that means.

Now how do you teach a 16 or 17 year old that what he did was an adult crime if you slap him on the wrist? What's to prevent him from doing the crime again? And again?

If a licenced 16 year old driver commits a hit and run homocide while DUI, do you treat him as a child? What if it's your family member he kills?

[depakid]

70. You have no idea what you're talking about

Juveniles are NOT afforded the same panoply of rights under criminal or civil law as someone who's reached the age 18.

And the fact that you're even mentioning "deterrence" in this context just underscores your lack of knowledge about the sociology of juvenile crime.

[roguevalley]

159. Oh please. If they had decided to set fire to a homeless person or

if they kicked a gay person half to death, you wouldn't feel they had to face REAL consequences for harming someone? This girl is likely blind in one eye and deaf in one ear forever. She has BRAIN DAMAGE most likely from being hit in the head by COWARDS. These punks sentenced her to life as a handicapped person. Fuck this. They earned the adult trial. Kids who get drunk or do vandalism aren't tried as adults so that part of the equation is a straw man. This is extremely serious and merits it.

[depakid]

190. Sorry- but I don't buy into that lynch mob rationale

They'd get PLENTY of harsh consequences and punishment (since that's what American society focuses almost exclusively on) as the juveniles they are. Yet people in this country always seem to want more and more in a quest for collective vengeance- as if that in some way will make the victim whole.

Some politicians have made careers out of emotional arguments like these.

Kevin Mannix for example -the man who brought us measure 11 mandatory sentencing for juveniles (which is costing Oregon so much money that the people in the state will be spending more on prisons than higher education).

Is that really the sort of society that we should strive for?

I know it's difficult for people to look at the larger picture when cases like this one come around- but lawyers have a saying "bad facts make bad law," and I think that aptly describes the case at hand.

[Beausoleil]

161. So you've never heard of kids weighing the consequences

of their actions based on the fact that they think they will be tried as juveniles?

And specify, please, what rights do juveniles not get when they are tried as adults? You seem to be an expert on the subject, so educate me, rather than insult.

[depakid]

176. Sure they weigh consequences to an extent

But really- do you think that they wouldn't be deterred by the prospect of ruining their lives through the penalties of the juvenile justice system? Do you really think they contemplate or calculate 50 years any differently that 5 with respect to behavior like this? If so, you must not have much experience dealing teens.

[cynatnite]

128. Do you know that for a fact that the 14 year old will vote in November?

Do you see how ridiculous you sound when making a flatly untrue statement?

These minors will not be allowed to join the military nor will they be able to vote in the election.

They will not be allowed to vote or join the military because they suddenly became adults as a result of this. Do you understand?

You can attempt to throw back in my face 'what if it was you're kid' to your heart's content. It does not change the facts at all.

They are minors because the law deemed those people under the age of 18 as such for good reason. The only reason why they want to charge them as adults is so they can punish them more harshly than they would if another teenager committed the same crime without the benefit of publicity.

[Beausoleil]

172. Please point out the direct relationship

between the right to vote and the rights afforded adult criminals.

Conviction of a felony does not disqualify one from voting forever in every state. Look it up.

Conviction of a felony does not disqualify one from joining the military. Plenty of waivers being given out today. You can look that up too.

Why are you so concerned about these little gangsters' voting rights, and have apparently no concern for their crimes against the victim (and society)?

[cynatnite]

186. You said "They will have all the rights afforded adults when they commit crimes."

That's what I was responding to after you stated this opinion not just once, but twice.

Just because they are charged as adults does not mean they will automatically become adults and have all the rights of an adult. I wasn't the only one who said this.

I think you're misunderstanding what's being said here.

They are minors and should be tried in juvenile courts as any other minors who break the law. That's it.

[flvegan]

75. Dylan Bennet Klebold

He was 17 when he killed himself after the Columbine massacre.

He wasn't an "adult" by your definition. Had he lived to see charges and a trial, he should have been tried as a minor?

I don't think so. I think the line is crossed depending on the crime.

[depakid]

212. Actually, Klebold and Columbine was an entirely different situation

Dave Cullen wrote an interesting piece in Slate with some contrasting views on what those dynamics were.

...for a tiny percentage, suicide is not enough. The next step up is a "vengeful suicide," like shooting yourself in front of the wedding photo to splatter it with blood and brains. Some men—nearly always men—take it a step further and shoot the offending boss or girlfriend before himself. For a rare few, that still won't satisfy their rage. They blame everyone for their misfortune, and they want to make sure we feel it and that word travels. Life is hell, they insist, and it's not their fault. If they're going to die, you people will, too.

http://www.slate.com/id/2164757

[NYC Liberal]

101. It makes 100% sense.

14-16 year olds, in general, have not reached a point where they are mature enough to drink, serve in the military, or vote. I say in general because there are always exceptions. But we can't "make exceptions" for those things - how could we?

However, 14-16 year olds are certainly capable knowing that KIDNAPPING and BEATING another person is wrong! Not only that, but the decision of whether to charge them as adults or not is made from case-to-case. In this particular case, yes, it's absolutely the right thing to do.

[roguevalley]

157. Oh please. They have the right to behave. NO WHERE is it acceptable

to do what they did. They have had training in schools and churches all their life about this, even if it never came up in their families. I am sure most of them had families that said this stuff would be wrong. You assume that voting and the rest make you adult. I know lots of adults who don't do any of that. They don't vote. They never served. Big deal. Don't mistake frills as more important markers for people than good behavior. They earned the right to a trial for their actions.

[cynatnite]

163. You call voting 'frills'?

Really? You'd say that here at DU? Frills? Are you sure you want to stick with that sentiment?

Nowhere in my post did I say these kids should be allowed to get away with anything. We have a juvenile system in place already for minors who break the law.

The law says that people under the age of 18 are minors and they do not have the maturity or the understanding to vote in an election, serve in the military, drink and so on. That's the law.

They should be punished by juvenile courts the same as any other juvenile offender who commits a similar crime.

[roguevalley]

206. first of all, poor choice of words on my part. However, you are throwing

up things for them that aren't even on the table. We all are required to not burn people up, beat people into the ground and hold them against their will with the collusion of adults helping us no MATTER WHAT AGE WE ARE! Go ahead and trash me. I don't give a damn. But I have worked with kids this age and in this mental condition for 27 years. Fuck that and I don't care if you don't like it.

[TheUniverse]

203. Is anyone here saying what they did is acceptable.

Here's my view. This country is probably the most prison happy country in the world. We have 3 million people in prison, at the rate our country is going that number is going to grow exponentially. Lets say we send that 14 year old to prison for 14 years which is certainly in the realm of possibility if she is charged as an adult. What happens when she gets out at the age of 28. Shes 28, shes lived in prison half her life, and now shes back in society. What do you think if gonna happen next?

[TheUniverse]

55. I got attacked at school just as bad as that girl did in the video when I was 12.

I got broken bones and was sent home with my face cut open. The kids who attacked me only got several weeks detentions (even though they should have got suspensions). But looking back on that, under no circumstances would I want them to be charged as adults. Im 21 now, and if they were charged as adults, they might still be in prison. I wouldn't want that. It would ruin their lives. I know this girl who attacked was 14, but lets face it 14 isnt much older than 12. If she was 12 would you be ok with her being charges as an adult? How low in the age do you go? They didnt kill anyone. They just did a gang attack, and that is much more common among children than you might think.

[roguevalley]

162. I applaud your equanimity about your crime. You have a good soul

But these kids maimed a girl for life. Its a small step from this shit to pouring gasoline on a sleeping homeless man. Same thinking, same hate. This is hatred pure and simple. This is not a small thing. They nearly killed someone to make themselves into some terrible force to be reckoned with. Posting the video tells me that. They earned a more severe punishment if convicted than someone who siphoned gas. Their age is no deterent to the clear societal viewpoint that this is evil. They all looked like they came from good homes. No relief for me for them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

46. Well to be fair

Society at large thinks 15yo's are mature enough to pick out a sexual partner
Society at large thinks 15yo's are mature enough to hold jobs
Society at large thinks many things are within the realm of a 15yo

As to voting, you have to draw the line somewhere BTW there are adults who cant vote as well are they still adults?

Were this a lesser offense (a one on one fight, or even a spontaneous fight with worse odds) I would think trying them as adults would be unforgivable but this was:

1) Premeditated
2) Continuous
3) Done for fun
4) Recorded and shown to the world

I hope they throw the little punks in jail with the Minimum sentance that an adult would receive.

[roguevalley]

151. I personally believe they have the right if they do an adult enough

crime, especially something as cowardly as this pre-meditated hate crime, they have the right to face adult consequences. Just too bad
they are such underbred little hellions. After watching one of their
mothers blame the victim, I see why they are such shits.

[Freddie Stubbs]

231. They are only being tried as adults because they committed adult crimes

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Bleeding heart sap that I am ......

...... I can't work up to enough anger toward these kids to want to see them tried as adults and facing life in prison.

That's not to excuse the crime. It was awful and I am not arguing that.

I just can't bring myself to see, lets say, that 14 year old tried as an adult.

I have three kids ...... one over 30, one just under 30 and one nearly 21. The two younger ones don't have all that much maturity, with the youngest having pretty much none ...... and I can't imagine these kids are a hell of a lot different.

But then, were I on trial for a serious crime, I'd want a guy like me on the jury.

I'm a bleeding heart sap.

[Lance_Boyle]

41. did you watch any of the video?

It was horrific. A brutal assault, clearly premeditated. It's heart-breaking to see the many times the victim tries to get out, and is beaten back. These young animals deserve all the prison time that's coming to them, and probably then some. I sure as shit don't want any of them on the loose around here.

[depakid]

74. "These young animals"

Yep- dehumanizing people.

One of the finer 21st Century American traits.

[BryMan]

86. You have got to be kidding, or didn't watch the video

Those "young animals" and yes they earned that when they left their humanity at the door. They lured then attacked someone, beat her to the point of knocking her out, then attacked her again after she came to. Yes they earned being called what they are, for shit sakes they recorded it, and then put it online! If that isn't sadistic, and without humanity wtf is then huh? They rank right up there with those scumbags that beat the homeless men in South Florida last summer, animals is the correct term for them..... no it isn't it's a slap to actual animals. Excrement is alot better.

[depakid]

112. What makes you think I didn't see the video? -or that I would be "kidding"

about reacting with the sort emotional immaturity that's characterized so many people throughout history with attitudes like you and others have expressed?

You actually think that's justified? You think that ends up promoting rational solutions to societal problems? or works justice in any given case?

(and before you answer that, I would add that justice doesn't equal vengeance or a pound of flesh).

I'd also ask: why do you think other western nations don't react this way- and don't have policies that lock up juveniles for life?

[BryMan]

237. Well then...

They can live in your neighborhood then Mr. bleedy heart I'm such a softy I don't mind letting them off with a warning then they learn they can pretty much get away with harming people and suffer no consequences.

Yes it's justified to send them to jail for kidnapping and assault that was premeditated, and for a good while.

Maybe then if they live in your neighborhood you will be the next victim, and then, and only then might you have that tiny spark in your brain trigger why it was a good idea to send these shitbags to jail.

You call it emotional immaturity to expect consequences for BREAKING THE LAW, stupidity doesn't earn you the right to talk smack.

You went to shit talking first, so don't bother replying, I see you ain't gonna get it, or can debate without being a dick.

[BlooInBloo]

89. Those animals dehunanized *themselves*. We just got to watch it.

[Mike Daniels]

250. I think the "wastes of carbon based life" dehumanized themselves

by their actions. The poster who rightfully called them animals had nothing to do with their dehumanization.

[Stinky The Clown]

85. Yes, I saw it

[RedCappedBandit]

60. You're not alone. I feel the same way

[Pithlet]

67. Noting wrong with that. It's wrong to charge kids as adults.

Period. Noting bleeding heart about it. Wrong is wrong. That doesn't change just because we're sickened and outraged by the crime. Trying children as adults is vengeance, not justice. And, before anyone asks me, yes, I watched the tape. They should definitely be facing charges as juveniles.

[roguevalley]

164. no it isn't revenge. plenty of kids have killed homeless people with

bats and burning.

[Pithlet]

185. If we make our decision on how to punish those teens that killed the homeless

based on how outraged we are about the crime, and not based on what we've already decided beforehand is just treatment, then it is based on revenge. Put it this way. If we have a separate system for juveniles because we concede they aren't fully mature, and then completely disregard that in our need to see that they suffer for what they've done, then that is satisfying our need for revenge. Not justice. I don't think a lot of people realize that there is a difference.

[roguevalley]

207. you are looking at someone who loathes the death penalty and

doesn't believe in revenge in crime. but i do believe in REAL FUCKING CONSEQUENCES for DIRE ACTIONS. They could have killed her and nothing but REAL FUCKING CONSEQUENCES will do. These kids are larking around wondering if they can get to cheerleader practice in time. They KNOW they will only get a slap. They have earned more.

[Pithlet]

256. And you're looking at someone who isn't advocating a slap on the wrist.

Absolutely there should be consequences for their actions. I just don't see why they have to be treated like adults when they aren't. They're juveniles. We've set up a separate juvenile system for them. So, we use that juvenile system. I'm using the same principles that make me against the death penalty in my argument that they shouldn't be treated as adults.

If your argument that the juvenile system doesn't go far enough in their punishment, then that's another matter. I would remind people arguing that of why we have the separate system in the first place. It's partly because it doesn't do us any good to have a bunch of good people rotting in jail for years in their adult years because of foolish mistakes made in their youth. People can and often are very different from their teen selves. People do a lot of growing and changing in their teen years. That's why the aim of juvenile justice is, or is supposed to be, geared more to rehabilitation than the adult system. It would be a shame to turn it into just another version of adult justice merely to satisfy our need to see that someone pays.

And I don't agree that they knew they would only get a slap on the wrist. For one thing, they aren't. Florida is capitulating to the mob mentality of justice nowadays, and are trying them as adults. There's nothing to suggest that they thought otherwise. It could be they were brushing it off. But, I think the laughing and asking about cheer leading practices sounds like the behavior of very scared girls.

[LanternWaste]

78. Me too...

Me too...

But I'm torn-- the traditional, sexist bit of me (hold on-- not to much of a sexist left, but still a little bit) is saying that assaulting a young girl is just... wrong. On so many levels. Even if by other young ladies

On the other hand, I had my butt kicked a fair number of times in HS, and (to a small extent) feel as though it were part of my Rite of Passage so to speak. But I certainly don't hold that to be true of everyone-- just myself.

Guess I'm just torn on some base, viscerally emotional levels. Thankfully, I'll never be a jurist...

[Divernan]

100. Rite of passage !!! Are you blind in one eye? Deaf in one ear?

Are you permanently incapacitated in two of your sensory functions?
They MAIMED this young woman. MAIM: 1. To disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a limb or other part of the body.

Do you know what it does to depth perception to lose the sight of one eye? Do you know what effect this has on your ability to participate in some occupations, in sports, in all kinds of activities?
And speaking as someone with a severe hearing loss, correctible by a hearing aid in one ear, but hardly at all in the other - let me just say that I am constantly missing out on conversations, instructions and general verbal communications because the source of said communication is on my "wrong" side. And when you're in a carload of people, or at a business meeting, or a restaurant table, it is impossible to have everyone else on your "right" side.

And there are doubtless psychological repercussions that will require a lot of therapy for the victim. Whether these junior sociopaths are tried as adults or juveniles, the victim will have the looming presence of a trial, and all the pre-trial investigation and publicity hanging over her head for years to come. She'll have to testify and relive the nightmare all over again.

I have big news for you. You say assaulting a young girl is just wrong.

Assaulting ANY ONE is WRONG! It is a crime!

[LanternWaste]

229. Yes I know assaulting anyone is wrong.

I purposefully didn't read the entire story, nor did I watch the video.

No, I'm not maimed.

Yes I know about the effects of depth perception from the loss of an eye.

Yes I know assaulting anyone is wrong. It's not really news to me, let a lone BIG news. And I even know that it is a crime.

And guess what-- I'm still torn.



Anything else....?

[Juche]

39. Kidnapping is way too harsh

I can understand a false imprisonment charge, but kidnapping is a bit extreme. Possible life in prison for a fistfight? I saw the video, it does not warrant a life sentence. If that is the draconian plutocracy we are becoming, then fuck it. 17 year olds getting possible life sentences which the rich and powerful just change the law to avoid being held accountable for far worse atrocities.

First off, it'll cost about 250k a year to imprison all of these kids every year. What a stupid investment if they get long prison sentences. Spending millions to punish people in a fistfight is a bit unnecessary. Alot of the outrage is just because the victim didn't fight back. Had she fought back I don't think people would be so angry about it.

It'll probably be pled down to criminal confinement and battery or something, maybe 1-3 years in prison. That I can understand.

And if it was my daughter, I still wouldn't support the draconian punishments they seem to be throwing out. Criminal confinement and aggravated assault sound like punishment enough.

[Fleshdancer]

63. I wouldn't call it a fist fight

when I think of a fight, I think of two people hitting each another. Not only was this girl ganged up on, she didn't hit back. Instead, she tried to leave.

This was a group beating that left her un conscience, gave her a concussion, and now she has vision and hearing problems because of it. If a man did this to his wife, he would be looking at criminal charges. If a woman did this to her child, she would be looking at criminal charges. Why does this victim deserve any less?

[Juche]

66. They don't deserve a possible life sentence

This was a ganged up on aggrevated assault on an unwilling victim, so calling it a fistfight is not really fair. So I take that back.

But even with that, if they get more than 5 years in prison it'll be excessive IMO. They deserve criminal charges, just not kidnapping. I'd go with false imprisonment instead.

[Hugabear]

71. I seriously doubt they are going to get a life sentence

They could face life imprisonment. But just because they're being tried as adults, and are facing life, doesn't mean they're going to get life.

[Fleshdancer]

81. I agree they don't deserve a life sentence

and to be honest, I'm still not sure how I feel about them being tried as adults (with the exception of the 18 yr old(s)). I'm disgusted by this whole story and I wish this never happened.

[Divernan]

104. I don't think they should get life sentences either.

Because I would like the victim to sue them in civil court for her pain and suffering, her psychological damamge, and her loss of sight and hearing. That should result in a multi million dollar verdict which these junior sociopaths can spend decades of their lives paying off.

[roguevalley]

166. it was kidnapping. Holding her against her will so they could maim

her is kidnapping. check the statutes. she tried to get away over and over. they didn't let her go because they weren't through beating her. that is kidnapping. It isn't harsh its the law. while she was unable to get away, her eye and ear were being destroyed, not to mention her spirit, which some people don't seem to think matters as much as the thug trolls that maimed her.

[Dreamer Tatum]

251. Held against will for the purpose of delivering a beating

...with lookouts posted outside?


That's kidnapping, cut and dried. The book should be tossed at them. Jailhouse tats and Dateline NBC interviews for all.

[cynatnite]

43. As much as I'd like to see them pay, they still should not be tried as adults...

They don't have adult rights in the first place for a reason.

[Beausoleil]

50. Once they are charged as adults

they have all the rights an adult accused has.

What about the 18 year-olds? Treat them as children, too?

[cynatnite]

52. No, they don't...

They can't vote, serve in the military or any of the other things that adults are able to do. They are not allowed to do those things because they're not considered mature enough to understand it or able to behave responsibly. They're minors. It's makes no sense to try them as adults when they're not adults.

As far as the solitary 18 year old goes...of course since he already is an adult. :eyes:

[Hugabear]

76. The poster meant LEGAL rights

The right to a fair trial
The right to legal representation
The right to face their accusers
etc etc etc

[Divernan]

107. Plus right to plead diminished mental capacity - I suspect low IQs all around.

[Ilsa]

44. I wouldn't try the 14, 15, and 16 year olds as adults. I'd consider the 17 yo. If they

are 18, then they are old enough to be more resonsible and understand the consequences of their actions.

[slackmaster]

48. Try the juveniles as juveniles, and sentence them as adults

No problem.

[Pithlet]

68. But they're not adults.

There's the problem.

[slackmaster]

181. They will be in a few years

:nuke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

253. Lord willing they will be AARP members by the time they get out

Im just kidding but I couldnt help it..

[slackmaster]

260. Don't be making fun of AARP members

I just joined it myself.

[nashville_brook]

83. they actually have more rights when tried as an adult -- the would be the worst of both worlds.

[Red Zelda]

53. Fry these nazi freaks

sorry. These animals need to go away. Far away.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Meh.

If you're going to try people to the fullest extent of the law, then you should allow the same people to be represented by law, and lower the voting age to 14.

:shrug:

[Iggo]

64. Kidnapping and torture.

50 years apiece oughta just about do it.

Little fuckheads!

[depakid]

72. Reading many of these posts reminds me (yet again) why America is in the sorry shape it's in

Emotional attitudes like some expressed here are precisely why Americans overwhelmingly got duped into a reckless war- and they're also why the bill of rights and the Geneva Convention was so conveniently thrown out the window.

[Divernan]

110. These kids are precisely the kind of animals who are glad to torture, in violation of Geneva

Convention. That convention precludes the kinds of mindless violence these junior sociopaths thought of as fun.

[depakid]

115. Maybe so- but the converse is also undeniably true

While many here seem to think they're quaint, the trade offs in the juvenile justice system- like the Bill of Rights and the Geneva Conventions were meant to protect civil society from the same sort of primitive emotions and destructive mentalities that are so evident on this thread.

Unfortunately, many Americans- as well as state governments in places like Florida and Texas seem incapable of understanding this- or appreciating the benefits that accrue to other who DO remember and understand.

What I'm seeing here is bloody lynch mob- made all the more impressive due to its expression on a supposedly progressive message board....

[roguevalley]

168. Sanctimony.

[alarimer]

134. THEY are exactly what is wrong with society.

We have become a society of ANIMALS. And the fact that these little pieces of shit can do something is just symptomatic of what is wrong with society at large. I am disgusted every single day by the crass, disgusting behavior I see. Personally I blame TV and the internet. It is a CESSPOOL of shit out there.

They deserve lengthy sentences at hard time. Not 2-3 three years in juvenile detention, after which they would be allowed to go back to their lives as if they did nothing.

[depakid]

141. Sorry to say, but people with attitudes like you express are far more pernicious

and unfortunately, they also seem to be increasingly pervasive.

Like most who think like that though, one suspects you're unable to even see the irony in what you've written.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

154. Which makes an interesting comparison between them and people in this thread.

They're not that much different, IMO.

[Hugabear]

73. If they're tried as juveniles, don't they automatically walk free at 21?

Not only that, but their juvenile records would be sealed.

This was a heinous crime, premeditated assault. The girl is very lucky that she didn't sustain much more serious injuries, brain damage, or even death.

I don't believe in just locking people up and throwing away the key. But at the same time, we need to start making examples and letting people know that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated in our society.

[depakid]

214. In America, that depends largely on state law

The ceiling (hopefully) was established in 2005.

Divided court overturns sentences in 19 states

A closely divided Supreme Court ruled March 1 that the death penalty cannot be imposed on youthful murderers who were not yet 18 years of age at the time they committed the crimes, ending a practice used in 19 of the U.S. states.

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2005/March/20050301171706sssille0.4179804.html

Not sure how Florida's juvenile justice system works- or should work- maybe someone with more knowledge and local experience can tell us.

I will say, though, contrary to some opinion here- juvenile offenders don't just walk Scot free into "the good life" at 21. or 24. or 26.

[SoCalDem]

77. Good.

They are ALL old enough to know better, and should be tried as adults.

I am sure that if they have no other "incidents" on their records, most will get probation, or minimal time, but assault is assault

[Pithlet]

80. The problem with trying children and teens as adults

is that in our justice system we consider extenuating circumstances. In other words, we don't automatically assign everyone the same exact punishment for the same crime. It's the reason we treat children and teens differently than adults in our justice system, or are supposed to at any rate. Their immaturity is an extenuating circumstance, regardless of the crime. They simply are not miniature adults. They don't think they way we do. They don't exercise the same level of judgment we do. We must take that into consideration if we want justice served. The parts of the brain that give us adults those abilities aren't fully developed yet. Those are extenuating circumstances, and they don't change, no matter how heinous we judge the crime. It doesn't mean we forgo justice completely, but we take those circumstances into consideration. Failing to do so is a failure of justice. It's a travesty that courts do this and get away with it. It doesn't matter how it affects us personally. No matter how disgusted we feel. I was outraged watching that tape. But, it isn't right to arbitrarily decide from one case to another that we're going to disregard those factual circumstances, so I cannot support this. I think they should face criminal charges as juveniles and be punished accordingly.

[flvegan]

82. Then we need to revamp the entire juvenile justice system.

As I posted upthread, one of the Columbine shooters was 17. Had he lived, what then? Bullshit juvy court, sealed records...oh, yeah, that needs to walk free in a short time.

Sorry, I will never be one to buy into the idea that a birthday, a stroke of 12 between the day one is 17 years and 364 days old and one is 18 makes any damn difference at all.

Sure, if these kids were 6, 8, 10 years old. I'd agree. Kids mature a LOT faster now as opposed to when the idiotic 18 years old = adult rule was written.

[Pithlet]

88. Science backs me up.

The part of their brain that involves judgment are not fully developed, even at 16, 17 years old. Teen does not equal adult, physically or mentally. Therefore, it makes no sense to treat them as if they were, in any capacity. They aren't the same. It makes as much sense to try a teen as an adult as it would to try a dog as an adult. If it makes no sense to try a ten year old as an adult, then it makes no sense to try a 16 year old. Neither are adults. Justice isn't served on a whim, just deciding that because the level of outrage is high enough, we'll decide not to consider that teen does not equal adult in this one case, because it makes everyone feel better.

[flvegan]

91. So somehow, the 17 year 364 day old brain

hits that evolution at the stroke of midnight?

Got it. That's good science.

[varkam]

93. The law is arbitrary in that respect.

The line has to be placed somewhere, and that somewhere happens to be 18 years. But being that there is not much of a difference between a 17-year and 364-day old brain and an 18-year old brain does not mean that there is a difference between, say, a 14 year old brain and an 18 year old brain. It's fallacious logic to assume so on the basis offered.

[flvegan]

102. The line should be placed in regards to the crime in consideration

of the age of the alleged perpetrators. Some hard line drawn in the sand makes little sense. As the case I've made stands. One Columbine shooter was 17, one 18. They should be charged differently had they lived? Obviously not. Why not? The type and severity of the multiple crimes committed. I'd suggest that 13 or 14 is where that line starts to move around.

[varkam]

109. You'd suggest 13 or 14?

On what basis do you make that suggestion?

[flvegan]

114. On the basis that

when the average kid is 13 or 14, one knows that burning a city block down has serious consequences as would murdering your classmates. Shoplifting, not so much. See, it's the crime in consideration of the age that starts to move that line in the sand around. Still depends on the specific kid and the specific crime. However, an 8, 9, 10 year old stays in the juvy system.

If our teens can't understand that violence has consequences, then we should stop procreating altogether.

[varkam]

119. Circular argument.

You're assuming what you're setting out to prove, namely that a 13 or 14 year old child has the mental capacity to comprehend the consequences of his or her actions.

[flvegan]

123. Not trying to prove anything.

Offered my opinion. Backed it up with arguments. Noticed nobody touched the Columbine aspect. One 17, one 18...

Line HAS to be drawn somewhere, though, right?

Oh, and if a 13 or 14 year old is such a mindless droid, please nobody tell the mob or the drug cartels. Hell, the Gottis could have a dozen 14 year olds with trust funds for when they turn 18 and their records are destroyed.

[varkam]

143. I'm merely saying your opinion is not well-reasoned.

At least, not as you are presenting it here.

I did respond to your claim that there is not a difference between a 17 and an 18 year old.

Oh, and if a 13 or 14 year old is such a mindless droid, please nobody tell the mob or the drug cartels. Hell, the Gottis could have a dozen 14 year olds with trust funds for when they turn 18 and their records are destroyed.

No one is saying that a 13 year old or a 14 year old is a "mindless droid".

[flvegan]

149. Well

"...namely that a 13 or 14 year old child has the mental capacity to comprehend the consequences of his or her actions" sortof does suggest that they're relatively mindless. That Stormfront's underbelly should get to recruiting arsonists.

Fact is, that line in the sands of time between 17 years and 364 days and 18 years suggests that there's a problem with how we deal with juvenile crime.

[varkam]

153. Hmm..

"...namely that a 13 or 14 year old child has the mental capacity to comprehend the consequences of his or her actions" sortof does suggest that they're relatively mindless. That Stormfront's underbelly should get to recruiting arsonists.

I'm not saying that a 13 year old doesn't have the capacity to understand any consequences, but they they do not appreciate the gravity of their actions and the consequences that follow in the same way that an adult with a developed brain does.

Fact is, that line in the sands of time between 17 years and 364 days and 18 years suggests that there's a problem with how we deal with juvenile crime.

As I addressed, that does not mean that there is no difference between the brain of a 14 year old and an 18 year old. There isn't much of a difference between 34 miles per hour and 35 miles per hour, either, but stretching that reasoning out to the conclusion, we'd come to the claim that there isn't a whole lot of difference between 35 miles per hour and 80 miles per hour.

I agree that the line in the sand is rather arbitrary, but you are simply suggesting the opposite extreme - that there be no line.

[flvegan]

158. If the average 13 year old

doesn't have this "capacity" then why aren't we seeing this very same event a dozen times, every day? I mean, if we honestly think that there aren't thousands of teens having these same impulses, in groups, every day, then we're in big trouble.

And, thank you, I never suggested there be no line. I suggest you go back and reread my statements. I said the line should move, depending upon the crime and the age of the alleged perpetrator.

[varkam]

215. Then I simply misread you.

And, thank you, I never suggested there be no line. I suggest you go back and reread my statements. I said the line should move, depending upon the crime and the age of the alleged perpetrator.

What factors should influence how the line "moves"? What do you mean by depending on the crime? What do you mean by depending on the age?

...doesn't have this "capacity" then why aren't we seeing this very same event a dozen times, every day? I mean, if we honestly think that there aren't thousands of teens having these same impulses, in groups, every day, then we're in big trouble.

I would submit that if we see this very same event, every day, then that is evidence against what you are proposing - not for it.

[Pithlet]

121. Let me try framing it this way:

Why shouldn't I, as a 35 year old adult, get more time if I'd pulled what these girls pulled, then someone who's preferrontal cortex isn't fully developed and is therefore much more prone to peer pressure? Why should we decide not to take that difference into consideration, when our justice system rightfully considers many similar circumstances when deciding punishment?

I'm not even going to argue where that line should be drawn, because the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until the early 20's. In this get the pitchfork climate of vengeful justice today, we'll be lucky if we don't just decide to treat all kids as adults, so I'm not going to hold out any hope of it ever being moved up, nor am I sure I would argue that it should. But, I will remind people that when we are just, we all benefit. I've been asked to consider how I'd feel if it had been my kid. Of course I've thought of that. But, I've also thought about how I feel if it were a teen I cared about on the other end of the stick as well.

Fact is, there's an element of luck for most of us that things didn't turn out worse for us in our own childhood and teen years, as well. I never found myself in this situation as a kid. Who knows how much of that was luck? What if my parents hadn't moved to a less troubled district? I probably would have been okay, but I'll never know for sure that I wouldn't have been like one of those girls in that room who probably knew on some level knew what they were doing is wrong, but didn't have the emotional maturity to resist the pull of peer pressure.

[flvegan]

131. Why is it 16 in Scotland?

The Scots evolve faster than we do?

And yes, as a 35 year old adult, you should get more time. I've never suggested otherwise. I honestly, and anyone that thinks otherwise just isn't thinking, these girls, if found guilty, will NOT get the sentence a 35 year old adult would. That's the beauty of the sentencing process. It takes age/maturity/mental capacity into consideration.

And thanks, but I personally don't believe in "vengeful justice" hence my abhorrence of the death penalty. I do believe in proper punishment. I also think, that when the sentencing smoke clears, if found guilty, will be just. If I'm wrong, and the judge/jury sentences these kids to a decade in prison, I'll be the first one to suggest that it was too harsh and cruel.

[Pithlet]

137. You're not getting what I'm saying.

It isn't about where the exact line is drawn. If they're consistently applying that no matter how heinous the crime, and not just deciding to ignore that rule here and there because the outraged people demand it, then that's their justice system and they're remaining true to it. 16 isn't an outrageous line to draw. I might not agree with it, but I don't think it's draconian.

My point is that justice isn't served if we decide to ignore the lines we've already drawn. We've decided as a society that people under 18 aren't adults. It isn't just to decide that some of them are, and some of them aren't, based on how we feel about the crime committed. It's never just to do things that way. We don't base our punishments on the collective emotional reaction of the people. We base it on rules and guidelines we've established beforehand.

[lonestarnot]

139. Ever seen the effects of knowledge by teenaged boys that a gun is in the room w/o an adult?

Very interesting.

[Pithlet]

98. Of course not. But a line has to be drawn somewhere.

We don't throw up our hands and say "Well, let's not consider it at all, and savagely sentence someone to life in prisonment, even though they're only 12. Let's get rid of the juvenile system."

[walldude]

117. You telling me at 16 years old kids brains aren't developed

enough to know that what they did was beyond wrong? This isn't some schoolyard fight we are talking about. It was a well plotted assault, they set the girl up, attacked her beat her, slammed her face into a wall and videotaped the whole thing. Sorry ,if these kids were black they'd already be tried and convicted as adults.

I say the kids not only committed an adult crime, they planned it and laughed about it later. They are lucky they didn't kill the girl. They want to play in the bigs, let them pay in the bigs.

[Pithlet]

126. No. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying their brains weren't developed enough that they had the same capacity to deal with things like peer pressure, groupthink, mob rule, emotions, etc as adults do. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished for what they did. I'm saying that fact their brains are different should be taken into consideration the way any other extenuating circumstance is. People shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes they made as kids for the rest of their lives, because the literally aren't the same people they were when they were kids. Basically, they don't have the same brains they did then. That is why we have a separate system for kids and teens. I'm saying it's never right to set aside that separate system and try them as adults and pretend that extenuating circumstance doesn't exist. I'm saying a 16 year old plotting and pulling a stunt like this isn't the same as if I, a 35 year old with a fully developed brain and far more life experience, had done so.

[walldude]

135. I gotta disagree.. I have a teenager

and he thinks he knows more than me. They have an arrogance at that age that may well be due to an undeveloped brain, and I'm not usually for trying kids as adults, but this is an unusual case. They were laughing about this. Laughing. And they were so proud of what they did they posted it on You-Tube. Which brings up another point, they are, well, to put it bluntly, stupid. They video tape themselves committing a felony and then post it on the internet. It shows a complete lack of remorse. I just don't think family courts will dish out enough time for this crime. I don't want to see these kids walk out with probation and "counseling" they need to do time.


I know we disagree here but I did want to say thanks for reasoned and well said points, you don't see much of that these days :toast:

[Pithlet]

144. I'll go back to my past.

I mentioned that I'd been cornered and beaten in a bathroom when I was 12. Thankfully my parents moved, and the school district was much nicer. There was far less violence, and I thrived. But what if we'd stayed where we were. I can remember wanting to exact revenge on the kids that did it to me. What if I'd stayed there, and a few years down the road when I was 16 I found myself at a house where one of those kids was being beaten by a group. Would I have done the right thing? It's easy for me to look back as an adult, and think about how I would have reacted from an adult's point of view. Sure, I wouldn't join in. I would try my best to stop what was going on. I'd call the police. Can I honestly say my 16 year old self, still fresh and raw from what had happened to me, would have done the same? The one that hadn't ever benefited from being moved to a much less violent atmosphere? The one who's brain still relies more heavily on the amygdala, rather than on the prefrontal cortex like it does now? I'd like to hope I would have even then. But I can't honestly say that for sure. I think many who are calling for these girls to be treated as adults have forgotten what it's like. Because it's easy to forget. We all color our past with the present, and it takes honest searching to recall how it actually was. How different we actually were back in our youth.

How fortunate we were for whatever shaped us and prevented us from acting on our base nature back then. And an important part of justice is taking things like that into consideration. It's often harder to do the right thing. It's easier to say "Screw it, treat 'em like adults!" It feels better. I wanted to see them rot in jail the first time I saw that video. We shouldn't give in to that, though.

[LeftyMom]

132. Science says 20 year olds don't have mature brains either.

But they get to smoke, get married, drive cars, sign contracts, move out, go to college or not, pay taxes, go to war, become parents, and get tried as adults. And the vast majority of them manage to do okay for themselves, and certainly to no real harm to anybody else. By the time their brains are fully matured in their early 20s, plenty of people have been making adult decisions, and risking adult consequences for years.

In other societies, and in the history of our society, our concept of adolescence is something of an aberration. In agrarian societies, young people get married and start their own businesses and households at these kids' age or shortly thereafter. Surely their brains are no different than those of American kids. Sure, they haven't the wisdom of their elders, as that comes from experience, but they understand consequences quite well before that age.

It doesn't take a fully mature brain to know forming a gang and beating somebody down is unacceptable and has consequences. Grade school kids know that. Hell, preschoolers know that.

The bottom line is this: if tried in the juvenile system, those kids will be out and hurting people in only a few years. The right of the rest of society to be safe from sociopaths does not evaporate when those sociopaths happen to be below the arbitrary age of majority.

[Pithlet]

152. It's not about where the line is drawn.

It's about sticking to it once we've drawn it. We've already decided the line is 18. It isn't justice to disregard that because we're outraged by the crime. Justice is about treating people equally. We set the line beforehand. We don't vary from them based on the collective outrage of the people. If we've decided that people under 18 aren't adults, we should stick to that, no matter how we feel personally about the crime involved. Otherwise, justice isn't served.

I'm not arguing there shouldn't be consequences. I'm saying the consequences should be set within the framework we'd already decided was just before the crime was committed. People are right to be disgusted at what they did. I am, for sure. But it isn't justice to disregard the guidelines we had already set up. Those guidelines were set in part because of evidence that teens' brains aren't the same as adults. I brought up that evidence merely to explain why that line existed in the first place.

[flvegan]

167. This is where you're wrong.

We decided that the line is at 18 for certain adult rights, but, in particularly violent offenses, those under 18 can be tried as adults. That's the rule, that's the evolution of criminal justice and punishment.

The American Bar Association states it best:

When are juveniles tried as adults?

Juvenile courts usually hear cases involving persons between the ages of ten and eighteen. (The upper age may be lower in some states.) If the prosecution charges an older juvenile with a particularly serious or violent offense, the district or prosecuting attorney may request that an adult court try the juvenile as an adult. In some states, juveniles fourteen or older and charged with serious acts like murder, rape or armed robbery are handled in adult courts unless the judge transfers them to juvenile court.

[Pithlet]

171. I'm not not talking about legality. I'm talking about justice.

I maintain that we shouldn't make those exceptions. I'm not saying we don't, or that it's illegal to make those exceptions. I'm saying it's not just. The death penalty is legal, too. But it isn't just. There are plenty of things about our legal system that aren't just.

[flvegan]

174. So again

the 17 year old Columbine killer and the 18 year old Columbine killer should have different charges/trials/sentences had they lived?

I mean, that ironclad line is just that, from what you're saying.

[Pithlet]

193. For all people under that line, it has to be ironclad if we are to be just.

In a perfect world, we could discern just how culpable each individual is and adjust accordingly. In a perfect world, we'd base that line on scientific facts rather than arbitrarily deciding it's 18. The problem with not making it ironclad is that we are human, and we can err in our judgment based on bias. I would not be opposed to taking his youth and circumstances into consideration, either, even though he's crossed that magic line. I think we can vary the level of culpability in adults, and the law often does. But for all people under that line, it should be ironclad. It's true that there could be early blooming 15 year olds who are just as mature as an adult. But, it would be too tempting to make that distinction when the people making the determination are affected by how heinous the crime is, or pressured politically to make that determination.

[Pithlet]

180. Regarding violent crimes.

I do maintain that even in the most heinous violent crimes, minors should be treated differently, and here's why. I think the adult who goes postal and shoots up the workplace due to his treatment there is a different case than the teen who does so. Unless he's mentally ill, he had the advantage of adulthood and a fully developed brain and longer life experiences to cope with the stresses that the bullying heaped on him or her. Not to mention that few workplaces are ever as savage as school, given that schools are filled with other minors. I think it's entirely possible that the kids who shot up Columbine would have been normal, productive adults had they been presented with different circumstances, and that people can grow up into normal, healthy productive adults despite those circumstances. That's why regardless of the crime, minors should be treated with the goal of reform much more so than adults. That's why a separate system is needed.

[varkam]

155. Though it is clear that a 20-year-old brain is more developed than...

a 13 year old brain, and consequently is better able to handle "adult" decisions.

[roguevalley]

173. I am aware of the research too. But I am also aware that this girl

has fewer functioning brain cells than the day before because of these shits. They asked if they would be out in time for cheerleader practice or spring break. They don't give a shit. One of them has a mother out blaming the victim. They will never learn the magnitude of their actions from their current environments. They will go about blissfully self justifying what they did was a necessary thing.

I have less patience with these idiots than the victim. I wish I had not seen the hatred directed at her and her being all alone. These punks don't deserve my pity. If they were skin heads beating a gay person or a homeless person or a black person, would people want them to be given breaks because they are 'children'.

[coriolis]

182. You just hit on the solution! They should be treated as compassionately as we

treat rabid dogs. Euthanasia.

[Pithlet]

165. I'm not asking you to buy into that idea.

Because I don't think it happens that way, either. People don't mature at the stroke of midnight, of course, and I've never argued that. I'm only asking that you consider we stick to whatever rules we've already established. We've decided that kids under 18 aren't adults. We shouldn't decide which non-adults we're going to apply this rule to based on how we personally feel about the crime committed. If you feel that line should be lowered, then by all means fight for that. But it isn't right for us to decide who does and doesn't have the rules applied to them. That's not equality. That's not justice. It would be no different than deciding one person who stole a car should have to go to jail longer than another because the person they stole it from was poor, and garnered more outrage from the public than the person who stole from a rich guy who already had a bunch of cars and therefore wasn't hurt as much.

[flvegan]

196. We've also decided

that, at times, juveniles should be tried as adults. We've also decided that someone over the age of 18 having sex with a minor is illegal. Oh, wait...except sometimes. That changed over time. Now, if one partner is over one age but under another, then it's okay if the other partner is over some other age.

It's evolution of law towards reality.

It has nothing to do with how I personally feel about the crime. I'm an animal rights advocate, but I never advocated for any physical harm to come to Michael Vick. I don't take these situations personally, and it has nothing to do with outrage. Fact is, that line, is now a gray area and should have the ability to fluctuate as needed.

[Pithlet]

198. We've decided that it's okay as a state to kill people.

Pro-death penalty people can use this same argument to justify that as well. But it's extremely easy to make the case that the death penalty isn't just. Just as it's easy to make the case that there are physical developmental differences between minors and adults, so it isn't just to treat them the same. They're based on basic tennants (forgive me if I misspell that word, I'm having a brainfart) of justice. There are indeed arguable limits to what constitutes a just society. Plenty of otherwise civil societies have evolved some pretty heinous laws over time, with plenty of rationalization and justification along the way. They lost sight of what made their previously just societies so, and people were fighting it tooth and nail even then, trying to remind people of the principles of justice. They failed, because either vengeance or fear ruled the day. We're facing that here as well. In additional to political pressure to bow to serving vengeance, we're also facing increasing pressures to give up our freedoms and discard our principles in the name of national security. We need to tap phones for our safety. We need to torture because it saves lives. We need to evolve and forget about those principles because times have changed. Scary, isn't it? That's why we have to resist that temptation.

We can't afford to fail. That's why it's so important to keep our eye on the ball and remember what is just, regardless of how we may personally feel. It's why we stick to the principles of justice and freedom. The idea that we don't punish crimes equally despite the extenuating circumstances is a basic tennant of justice.

[flvegan]

200. The death penalty has been with us

just about forever. It too has evolved. It's been outlawed at times. I abhor the death penalty, as that is indeed vengeance and not punishment. Punishment should evolve and change with the times. I hope "the times" in time, sees the end of that particular form of revenge.

[Brigid]

84. What about the victim?

By the time I hit my teens, I would have long since known that helping to lure a classmate to a place and then helping to beat the crap out of her was just plain wrong, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. These little psychopaths should be punished according to the severity of their crime. I don't see any extenuating circumstances here.

[Pithlet]

95. I'm not arguing that these girls shouldn't have known what they did was wrong.

I'm not saying it wasn't wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished for what they did. But we have a separate juvenile system for a reason. That reason is based on facts. That is my whole argument. We shouldn't let our level of outrage and sympathy for the victim to just decide we're not going to follow the justice system. We either consider that children and teens are the same as adults, or we don't.

We shouldn't decide from case to case, based on how sickened and outraged we are at the crime, because then we aren't basing our decisions on justice, but on lust for revenge. Either we as a society say that it isn't right to hold people responsible for the rest of their lives for the things they did as kids, or we don't. Since we decided that we don't, I don't think we should conveniently set that determination aside because of how we feel about the crime committed. If we're going to set aside the consideration that they're kids, then what's to stop us from setting aside other considerations, like mental illness or distress? If we set all of those aside, then we are just as savage and unfeeling as those girls who committed the crime.

[varkam]

97. Well said. eom

[callous taoboy]

225. Is there no line, then, that a juvenile can cross to be tried as an adult?

Say, if they had in addition to kidnapping, terrorizing and beating the victim, they had sodomized her and put her in a coma? Are there not crimes committed by kids that are worthy of serious punishment?

[Pithlet]

243. No. There's no line.

All crimes committed by a juvenile should be handled in juvenile court. That's what it is there for. Teens don't magically turn into not-teens just because we've deemed the crime serious. It diminishes us as a society to throw teens in adult jail. Look at the media circus surrounding this, with the "Put them in jail for life!!!!!!!!!!!!" commentary. And now I find out today that they may actually be facing life in jail for this. This is not what I would hope we would become. It's not worth it.

Their crime is serious. But our reaction to it as a society is just as shocking and horrifying to me. It reminds me very much of their attack. I wonder if that isn't why they reacted the way they did, in this "Get the pitchforks!" mentality. They clearly felt the girl deserved it for badmouthing. I think a lot of people who are crying out for blood could do with a little self reflection on the matter.

[varkam]

96. No one is arguing that what they did wasn't wrong.

What we're saying is that there is a substantial difference between a juvenile and an adult in terms of moral decision making. Whether or not you feel that you had the capacity to understand and make such decisions has little bearing on others.

I'm no defense lawyer, but I can see plenty of avenues of possible argument to make regarding extenuating circumstances (i.e. peer pressure, groupthink, diffusion of responsibility, et cetera).

[Canuckistanian]

178. Exactly. We were outraged at the 15-year old Khadr's treatment

Why should we treat juvenile teenagers as adults if they haven't got the same level of judgement that an adult has?

Moreover, when they DO get to be 20 years old with a proper level of judgement, that conviction is going to be a handicap to them for the rest of their lives.

Yes, what they did was horrendous, but are they not capable of LEARNING why they were wrong, even at the ripe old age of 17?

[Pithlet]

202. Exactly. They are capable of learning.

That's actually one advantage of the formative years. We're limited by our underdeveloped brains, but we're also capable of much growth and change in that period of time. Many of us are completely different people from when we were teens. I know plenty of people who are fine, upstanding adults who were absolute hellions as kids. Even within the time frame of childhood, much growth and learning is possible. One of my tormentors in middle school went on to be my best friend in highschool. She grew to be a beautiful human being, even before she reached adulthood. I can't imagine being held accountable for anything I did as a teen, even now. I can't imagine any of the kids who beat me living with the consequences of that today, and I can't imagine demanding that they do. The girls in that tape are absolute shits, and they should face harsh consequences. But I don't think it should follow them forever, the way it will if they're charged as adults. I don't think their adult selves should be sitting in jail over this years in the future.

[varkam]

90. There's a juvenile system in place for a *reason*

Research suggests that teenager's brains are still developing, especially when it comes to things like moral decision making (which, IIRC, is mediated by the pre-frontal cortex). Given that fact, it seems to me to be patently unfair to try such individuals in a system meant for adults.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not defending their actions. I'm neither saying that they should avoid punishment. What I am saying, though, is that the juvenile system would be better equipped to deal with these individuals rather than the adult system.

[BlooInBloo]

92. The existence of special cases doesn't contradict that reason...

... We have Jiffy Lube for a reason too. Doesn't mean your Ferrari should be taken there.

[varkam]

94. But it seems to me that the only thing that makes this case special...

is the attention that it is receiving, presumably because they videotaped it and posted it to the internet. Otherwise, the essential facts of the case do not strike me as particularly special. If that's true, then the only reason this is a special case is because of the ostensible pressure being placed on the DA to charge the suspects as adults - which likewise doesn't seem fair to me.

[BlooInBloo]

99. I'm not a criminal lawyer, so I don't know the criteria for trying minors as adults....

... But the idea that you can never do that simply because the juvenile system exists "for a reason" is laughable.

[Pithlet]

103. What's laughable about it?

The reason is they are physically and mentally different from us. Therefore, we consider that, just as we consider other circumstances when determining a just punishment. At 35, I am much less prone to the effects of peer pressure than someone who is 16. So I should get a lot more time if I pulled the same stunt they did. What, exactly, is laughable about that? It's cruel and savage to never consider the extenuating circumstances of a crime. It's not justice.

[varkam]

108. I didn't say that you can never do that.

As a poster up-thread noted, there isn't much of a difference between a 17-year old and an 18-year old - but that does not mean that there isn't a difference between a 14-year old and an 18-year old. There are, in fact, substantial differences, that are in and of themselves mitigating circumstances.

The "reason", again, is that a juvenile brain is not equivalent to an adult brain in terms of moral decision making and, consequently, the punishment imposed should take those factors into account. That's one of the principles of the juvenile system.

[BlooInBloo]

116. It's true. You did not say those exact words. The logic, or "logic" of...

... "it's there for a reason" can be used *anytime* a juvenile is tried as an adult. So while you didn't use those exact words, the logic is still there.

[varkam]

120. You're reaching.

It's not equivalent to say that there is a reason that the juvenile justice system is in place and that the juvenile justice system should always be used to prosecute juveniles :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

122. No I'm not. Your "reason" proves too much. It's common when a person...

... woefully insufficiently describes what the cause or reason for a given phenomenon is, and instead uses a "shotgun approach".

[varkam]

145. I was discussing this case in particular, not every case in general.

You're free to assume what I think and feel about the juvenile justice system, though I'll tell you straight away that you are incorrect. I do not think that juveniles should never be tried as adults - nor was I arguing that.

Furthermore, are you saying that one of the reasons that there is a juvenile justice system is not that the courts recognize that there are substantial differences in the decision-making ability of a teenager and an adult? There are numerous reasons why there are two separate systems so, consequently, different rules can apply.

[Hugabear]

209. Actually, it's not that uncommon to try juveniles as adults

I know here in Florida, there have been several cases over the past several years where a teenager has pulled off a heinous crime and been charged as an adult. I can't point to specific examples of the top of my head, I'm just going off of what I've seen and read in the local news. And these aren't cases that get national attention. I don't think that it's the amount of attention given to the case, I think it's more due to the heinous aspect of the case - luring a girl to a house, and six girls beating her severely until she was unconscious.

[varkam]

216. I know that it is not uncommon...

I just think that it should be uncommon.

[DainBramaged]

105. Those of you who think they should not be charged as adults should

think about how you would feel if YOUR child was the victim here.

I hope they get the maximum sentences allowed by law,

I hope the girl who was beaten gets to sue the parents of each and every one of these miscreants for everything they are worth,

and I hope she gets to disappear and start her life over in another part of the country.

She will forever be "famous" because of these little scumbags, and she doesn't deserve that just as she didn't deserve the beating or humiliation at the hands of these scumbags.

[varkam]

111. One of the reasons we have a criminal justice system in the first place...

is so that we don't have to rely upon emotion in determining what is fair. Otherwise we might just as well have mob justice ala the Jim Crowe era.

No one is saying what they did was right, and no one is saying that they shouldn't be punished. What people are saying is that there are significant difference in the moral capacity of your average 14 year old and your average 18 year old that is based on neurological factors.

[Pithlet]

113. No, we shouldn't, because that's not what justice is based on.

Do you honestly think we should set all laws based on how I personally feel about everything? Okay, then what do we do about the fact that other people may not feel personally the same way I do? We don't. So, we as a society collectively set the rules based on what is just. One of those rules is (or was) that we don't hold children and teens to the same level of legally accountability as adults. It isn't justice for me to personally decide that we should ignore that, because I'm so outraged over what happened. After all, there are people who are simply outraged that some people don't raise their children as Christian. Because they're outraged, should they be able to decide to punish these parents for condemning their children to hell? Should I be able to call for a person to get life in prison for stealing my car, because it was given to me by my deceased grandfather, and therefore affected me on a much more personal level, therefore the person should get much more time in jail? Of course not. Justice simply isn't based on how individuals personally feel about any given crime, and for good reason. Otherwise things would get mighty draconian in a hurry.

[depakid]

118. I'd feel exactly the same way as I've expressed in other posts

though I do feel sorry for you and others who obsess about getting your pound of flesh.

Also: the local "news" made her "famous" through its manipulative pandering to sensationalism. Without their irresponsible involvement, this would be another of many juvenile justice cases that the courts and various administrative officials would look at on its merits.

[DainBramaged]

124. Don't feel sorry for me, feel sorry for the victim here

And I won't be getting my pound of flesh, the State of Florida will. These "young adults" knew exactly what they were doing, and I hope the jury sees it the same way. They need to be made examplse of for every kid who has been victimized, picked on, beaten up, or abused by their "peers" because of gang mentalities or because these kids thought physical violence and abject humiliation was the right way to settle things.

I have NO sympathy for the perps here, and they deserve their fates.

[Pithlet]

130. I was cornered and beaten in the school bathroom when I was 12.

They wouldn't let me leave the room. It was absolutely terrifying, and I was hurt pretty badly. It isn't that I don't feel sympathy for the victim. It is terrible what these girls did, and they absolutely should pay. Watching that video took me back to that day, and I almost had a panic attack. No one is arguing that they shouldn't pay for what they did. I'm certainly not. I'm just arguing that we shouldn't arbitrarily set aside extenuating circumstances that we've already judged to exist - by establishing a separate court for them - just because we're outraged at the crime. See my other posts in this thread on this.

[DainBramaged]

177. The State of Florida has determined they should be charged as adults, so be it

No matter how we feel about this issue, it won't change the outcome. And for your pain and suffering, I have great sympathy and empathy, but for my own personal involvement in a situation like his, the person who harmed my family member while he was a juvenile was convicted as an adult and as sent to jail for 5 years with NO time off for good behavior and branded as a sex offender for life.

And that's the limit I will discuss this matter.

I will not change my mind no matter how much better some of you think insulting me makes you feel. Like I had said previously, walk a mile in that kid's (or any kid's) shoes and tell me they should get any sympathy.

Not from me. This generation lacks respect, an it is as much the parents fault as the kids. And maybe the parents should be on trial too.

[Pithlet]

188. I don't think I've insulted you.

I've merely stated my opinion.

Just because a state has made a determination doesn't mean it's just. I'm trying to make the distinction between vengeance and justice, and have no intention of insulting anyone in this thread or changing anyone's minds. I think it could be considered insulting to insinuate a person has no sympathy for the victim because they disagree.

[depakid]

136. Why would you think I don't have sympathy for the victim

or should that be victims- because every case like this that tears down the juvenile justice system creates exponentially MORE victims, kids locked away for comparatively minor matters. Florida and Texas (and to my shame Oregon) are prime offenders.

As to having an example made of them (without going into how that justification plays out historically) what makes you think that the juvenile justice system won't do that? How many years is enough?

What you lack isn't just sympathy for the perps- it's respect for the juvenile justice system, its rationale and an understanding of why other nations find America's policies dysfunctional and unacceptable.

And you're surely not alone- which is why the United States has the world's largest and most expensive prison system- and has more kids sentenced to long prison terms than anywhere else in the world.

Personally, I find that a source of shame... one that makes me thankful that my Northwest accent is often mistaken for Canadian.

[roguevalley]

175. I don't want a pound of flesh. I want SERIOUS long term consequences

for someone who COMMITTED SERIOUS long term consequences. God, what is so difficult to understand about that?

RV, who TAUGHT kids younger and this age for 27 years and has seen SERIOUS violent non-compliance and juvenile deliquency and viciousness in kids rise up over the past 15 years.

[Deja Q]

129. The ultimate empathic experience, I have to agree.

I think looking at societal history and looking properly at what changes were good and what were bad is in order, and it's long overdue. :(

[Deja Q]

125. But they are not adults! They too have riiiiiiiiiiiiights!!

:sarcasm:

Make them enlist, if being petulant little militants is all they're good at being. Though with their videotaped attitude, they'd more likely attack government officials, and not the enemy. :silly:

[Deja Q]

133. Addendum/clarification

As I've said in other responses, children are to learn, grow, and adapt into their society. Not run around and do vile things just to get cheap attention.

And I fear their parents, at least some of them, may have been underaged and/or drinking when they got pregnant with their deplorable offspring. Maybe they had to hold down x number of jobs, I don't know. But when I was their ages, I didn't do shit like this or even think I would get away with it, never mind even contemplating that beating up others made a pastime even more fun than baseball. x(

So, no, I will not shut up on this and tangential issues. Sorry. I actually give a damn.

[sniffa]

138. Good. They should be.

And this is probably a better option for them than being slaughtered, or given a worse beating than they gave out.

That was such a fucked up thing to watch. Some people who go through that don't have the option of having their assailants even charged with any crime, and they take matters into their own hands. I know this from first hand experience. So fuck these brats, and especially, fuck the mother who was on tv defending these animals, rather than taking responsibility for being such a piss-poor mother.

You pull shit like this and get caught, you deserve whatever you get. If you're stupid enough to film it and put it on youtube, you deserve it even more so.

I hope they enjoy prison. :hi:

[laylah]

150. I cannot even imagine being the parent

of one of these animals! WTFFFFFFFFF is up with these kids? I am so sad...for the parents, the victim, and the f*cking perps! Where the hell were the sane folk? Lack of remorse is so obvious in this day and age. I have my own theories of why but who cares...this bs is a reality! :cry:

[sniffa]

156. ps: Nice mustache Zach

[Crabby Appleton]

160. Good, nt

[Fox Mulder]

170. How stupid are these kids?

Committing a crime and videotaping it and posting it on the internet?

They deserve to be tried as adults.

[MrSlayer]

179. No more than they deserve.

If you want to act like a hardened criminal you should be treated as one. Throw the book at them.

[Matariki]

183. Can someone explain "charged as an adult"?

There seems to be a great deal of argument about this issue - not what it is but whether it's right or not.

If they are charged as juveniles, would that mean that they could only be sentenced until they reach 18? Thereby only serving a year or two for their horrific crime?

Is that the purpose of trying them as adults - to give them sentences of an appropriate length?

Or is there an other reason to try them as adults?

[Crabby Appleton]

189. Yes, an adult felony conviction would would bar them

from legally owning or possessing a firearm.

[Brigid]

191. Now there's a point in favor . . .

of charging these little psychopaths as adults right there.

[sniffa]

197. And that's a bad thing?

[varkam]

217. Well, it's a bit more than that...

being a felon also influences your job opportunities and, depending on the state you live in, strips your right to vote.

[flvegan]

192. It also gives them to the right to trial by jury.

Also gives them the right to bail, I believe.

[Matariki]

205. Do you know what happens if they're tried as juveniles? No jury? Out of prison at 18?

etc?

[flvegan]

208. Yes I do.

Pay attention.

[bluestateguy]

187. Good

After a few years in prison, they will see the RUIN their lives have become.

This should be stapled to every high school transcript if they apply to college.

Their future jobs:

[karab]

194. hmmm

Mostly white. Why do most folks think crime is a black thing?

[Pavulon]

195. You beat someone blind and deaf in an ambush

you better be ready to serve time. People have lost their fucking minds. 10 years should sort it out.

[Eric J in MN]

204. They should be punished, but not as adults.

It isn't reasonable to assume that when they're 21, they will still think this kind of behavior is a good idea.

They should be given a second chance when they're 21.

[Hugabear]

210. Should Dylan Klebold have been given a second chance at 21?

As a poster above noted, one of the Columbine killers was only 17. Had he not killed himself, had he been taken into custody, should he have only been imprisoned until he was 21?

[flvegan]

213. Tag.

Thanks for jumping in.

On edit, I think I'm that poster.

[Eric J in MN]

219. Someone who commits murder at age 17 should do more than 4 years...

...but I don't think that proves that the eight suspects in this case should be tried as adults.

[Pithlet]

245. Why is that the only option other than try as an adult?

I think if he hadn't have killed himself, he should have been tried as a juvenile, with a serious aim toward rehabilitation, and that doesn't mean release as soon as he's 18. But, see, that doesn't satisfy our blood lust. "Someone has to pay for what happened!" many say. But, despite popular misconception, that's not supposed to be what justice is about. It's not just about punishing and making people pay, so that we all feel better. It's not that I don't understand the outrage and longing to make people pay for what they did. It's a natural human response. I'm saying we rise above that, because society benefits when we do. That's what progression is about. We're a better society when we don't throw teens away and write them off forever.

[tomreedtoon]

218. You're avoiding the obvious; imprison the PARENTS.

They were the ones who were responsible for the moral and ethical upbringing of those kids. Not schools, not churches, not society. These kids were obviously taught that beating the crap out of someone is the way to get ahead. I suspect the parents are all Republicans, too, since as the primary in the state proved, there is no Democratic Party in Florida.

Throw those parents into prison. Let them enjoy the fun of same-sex rape, shanking and continual humiliation. Let them learn what they did by raising kids without giving them a moral compass.

As for the kids? They get the rubber room. They will become test subjects for psychiatrists. Oh, the shrinks won't be able to help them, of course. They never do. But they'll at least be kept out of contact with the public for the rest of their miserable lives. Harsh fate, but hey, once you embrace the Dark Side, forever it will dominate your destiny.

[NashVegas]

227. Oh, They're Going to Get Their Asses Sued

No doubt about it.

[Godhumor]

221. Florida law for kidnapping MANDATES a minimum of 15 years without parole

From the Florida statutes:

For kidnapping as described in s. 787.01, a

13 mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of 15 years without

14 eligibility for release.


So, quick and dirty version, what the teens did clearly falls under the Florida definition of kidnapping (statute at the end of this post), the state attorney decides whether to prosecute minors as adults (one of 15 states that allows the prosecutor to make that decision), and the Florida statutes clearly say that 14 and 15 year olds can also be tried as adults in cases involving kidnapping (also attached at the end of the post). The students will not face life in prison, but they do face the minimum 15 years, if sentenced. My guess is they plead the 15 years down with the prosecutors, but, regardless, the state is not taking this one lightly.


Kidnapping definition:

The term "kidnapping" means forcibly, secretly, or by threat confining, abducting, or imprisoning another person against her or his will and without lawful authority, with intent to:

1. Hold for ransom or reward or as a shield or hostage.

2. Commit or facilitate commission of any felony.

3. Inflict bodily harm upon or to terrorize the victim or another person.

4. Interfere with the performance of any governmental or political function.

(b) Confinement of a child under the age of 13 is against her or his will within the meaning of this subsection if such confinement is without the consent of her or his parent or legal guardian.

(2) A person who kidnaps a person is guilty of a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.



Allowing the prosecution of 14 and 15 year olds as adults:

With respect to any child who was 14 or 15 years of age at the time the alleged offense was committed, the state attorney may file an information when in the state attorney's judgment and discretion the public interest requires that adult sanctions be considered or imposed and when the offense charged is:

1. Arson;

2. Sexual battery;

3. Robbery;

4. Kidnapping;

5. Aggravated child abuse;

6. Aggravated assault;

7. Aggravated stalking;

8. Murder;

9. Manslaughter;

10. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb;

11. Armed burglary in violation of s. 810.02(2)(b) or specified burglary of a dwelling or structure in violation of s. 810.02(2)(c);

12. Aggravated battery;

13. Lewd or lascivious assault or act in the presence of a child;

14. Carrying, displaying, using, threatening, or attempting to use a weapon or firearm during the commission of a felony; or

15. Grand theft in violation of s. 812.014(2)(a).

[Eric Condon]

223. Wow. Not one, not two - ALL of these pictures are Nick Nolte-worthy. Nice going, you WT scum.

That first dude's trash-stache is killing me.

[callous taoboy]

224. What message would be sent if they were not given maximum punishment?

I was a wild kid at 15. Me and some other punks broke into a bar that was in the back of a dance hall during a H.S. dance one night and stole several bottles of booze. It was a stupid thing to do and was done in a fit of oneupmanship. We got caught. I got put on juv. probation for a year, and on my 18th birthday my records were sealed. I learned a valuable lesson and never again have I violated another person's property.

I can imagine that several aspects of the crime these kids committed parallel the crime I committed, specifically the oneupmanship that is common among youth in the heat of the moment. However, these kids took it too far, way beyond what society should ever accept. In my day the people I knew and hung out with were wild, we dabbled in drugs, skipped a little school. Yeah we may have not liked someone and we may have tossed around the idea of kicking someone's ass. But we didn't. There was still some decency in our hearts toward fellow humans. What these kids did portrays a trend in our society toward brutality and terror.

They cannot, especially since they are notorious figures, get away with a slap on the wrist or even a mild jail sentence and years of probation. This is not the signal we should be sending to other teens who have brutality on their minds. The punishment meted out to me matched the crime I committed. I deserved it. They did their crime and they deserve what they have coming to them.

[Akoto]

228. I must confess, with shame, that I don't feel bad for them.

I am biased. Consider this an upfront confession.

When I was in school not so long ago, these were the kinds of kids who did similar things to me. Beat me up, humiliated me, picked on me incessantly. They felt not the slightest bit of regret about it, and the school didn't help. Eventually, I developed an anxiety disorder and dropped out. The very idea of going to that building was making me too ill.

Fortunately, I picked myself up and finished my education at the local college. The psychological impact of what they did to me remains to this day, however. Hanging my head while walking, not looking people in the eye when speaking with them, etc. Often, I don't even realize I'm doing it because I was that accustomed to the nervousness and shame.

My bullies were brutal, and they gave no thought to the impact of that brutality on the lives of their victims. Maybe these kids will.

[Freddie Stubbs]

230. Brittni, Brittany, and Mercades? Sound like the line-up at the local nudie bar

[Bluebear]

233. Give them a year.

[avenger64]

241. Yeah, 'Brittni' is definitely a new spelling - it's now officially ...

... a stripper name.

[Dreamer Tatum]

252. They didn't pick their names

And I wonder how much ridiculing of first names there would be here if they were all black kids.

[mainegreen]

234. Good! n/t

[Maine-ah]

238. I don't think I have a problem with them being charged as adults

at their ages, they certainly know right from wrong.

[laststeamtrain]

240. Why aren't these kids making amateur porn & cooking meth like the other kids?

The girls names sound like porn names.

[WinkyDink]

246. Good. No sympathy here.

[WinkyDink]

249. Defense atty: "that girl was not seriously injured." Injuries:

"suffered a concussion, has permanent hearing loss in her left ear and blurred vision in her left eye...."

Disgusting lawyer.

[Wizard777]

255. Several of these teens are facing life in prision.

They need to video the look on those kids faces when they find out they aren't going to Disney world or even the prom. They are going to jail for the rest of their lives. Then post that on youtube.

:nopity:

[ronnykmarshall]

259. I say try the little fucks as adults.

I don't think they should get life in prison however. But I do think their asses need to go to prison for a BIG chunk of time.

Then when they get out, they need to spend the rest of their lives helping support the girl who's life they have probably ruined.

Oh and sorry girls, but you're gonna miss cheerleader practice. Pack up your pom-poms honey, you're not gonna need 'em.

[otherlander]

261. Good.

Jail the bastards!

[Jack_DeLeon]

262. Good...

they deserve to be in prison.