Warning - Science Content - Why Some People Are *****

[Indenturedebtor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

" Empathy
Mirror neurons have been linked to empathy, because certain brain regions (in particular the anterior insula and inferior frontal cortex) are active when a person experiences an emotion (disgust, happiness, pain etc) and when they see another person experience an emotion. <25> <26> <27> However, these brain regions are not quite the same as the ones which mirror hand actions, and mirror neurons for emotional states or empathy have not yet been described in monkeys. More recently, Keysers and colleagues have shown that people that are more empathic according to self-report questionnaires have stronger activations both in the mirror system for hand actions <28> and the mirror system for emotions <29> providing more direct support to the idea that the mirror system is linked to empathy."

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There have been many studies linking the amount and health of your mirror neurons to your ability to empathize. Having a deficiency in mirror neurons is highly correlated with anti-social behaviours.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/4/648

http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=170

On a personal level I have often wondered how people could do some of the awful things that they do to one another. Quite simply I think that it's because they just can't see themselves in someone else. For most people when you see another person get hit in the face, you cringe a little. Well this isn't caused by the soul. There's a very specific set of neurons that hardwire for this empathy, and of course development plays a large role. But if you don't have them you don't have them.

Thought that some of you would find this interesting if you'd ever wondered, like I have, why some people are capable of such horrible things.

[Hissyspit]

1. Shouldn't this be in GD-P?

[Indenturedebtor]

2. Hahaha

Only if I singled someone out and said "Youuuuuu have no mirror neuronnnsssss!!!!!!!!1111"

[lyonn]

7. My thoughts exactly, ha

I was visualizing how some politicians seem to have sincere empathy and others use it as a tool and used it poorly at that.

But, it seems you have to mix empathy with intelligence, otherwise you may get a cryer and no action. Empathy keeps some of us from making good choices because we apply it to people that don't help themselves. We then get "hornswaggled". Don't know if that makes sense. Sometimes I catch myself making excuses for someone when that person is using their situation to get sympathy! Uh, wandering here I know.

[lapfog_1]

3. Well, THAT explains George W. Bush...

No empathy...

Because empathy requires "mirror neurons"... and for him to have "mirror neurons" he would first have to have neurons.

[drmeow]

42. LOL!!!!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

4. what are the asterisks for?

Why some people are --------

Flying monkeys?

Anyway - interesting post.

[Indenturedebtor]

5. ***** stand for

Dicks. Don't like posting naughties in the subjects for some reason heh.

[Richard Steele]

6. Hey!

:rofl:

[Indenturedebtor]

9. Lol sorry forgot about you :P

And yeah in response to the other posts here...

It's true that you do have to mix intelligence with empathy. And these neurons aren't only linked to empathy, but also to learning by modeling the behavior of others in general.

When you think about it they're much like some neurons in the visual cortex that take what you see and create an image in your mind of the world around you. Specific neurons respond to specific stimuli... under the right conditions you can even see an outline of firing neurons in your head that mirror what you're looking at! Well so far only in cats but the system is essentially the same... it's just harder to get the data out of a human head heh.

The world is represented in your mind... some people just simply lack the machinery necessary to care about other people, except where they stand something to gain by it. It's pretty much always been the basic theory to explain anti-social behavior, but recently there's a lot of evidence pointing out the why. Sadly much more of the why appears to be genetic than developmental, and it's far more common than one would like to believe.

Not surprisingly women on average have more mirror neurons.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Hey now.

Just because some people are empathic it doesn't mean they're all bad.

[Terran]

10. fascinating

I didn't realize this was so well understood from the physiological point of view. This makes me wonder what evolutionary purpose 'empathy' serves; is it a learning mechanism (i.e., because it helps convey one person's experience to another in a non-verbal way)? I imagine it also fosters social cohesiveness, which in turn improves survival.

[Indenturedebtor]

13. Yes the public (no offense please) is about 30 years behind

In terms of what psychology has accomplished. I mean just for an example you can have a camera implanted in your head if you lose your eyes! That takes some serious knowhow.

But yes empathy is thought to be both for learning and for learning how to get along. Even out of the "jungle", in America married couples are much more likely to be wealthy. Empathy helps with that, as well as helping to keep from killing your kids, and to forming a productive group structure that ensures the genetic survival of everyone in the group. Dogs have it too for pretty much the same reasons. It's a great survival tool.

And without empathy we wouldn't have any good books to read, any good music to listen to, etc... imho anyways. It is empathy on a very basic level that allows you to understand the frame of mind of others so that you can effectively communicate with them. Communication is essentially manipulating another persons consciousness, and in order to 'play the instrument' of another person's mind you have to know where the chords are.

This great cathedral of civilization was built on empathy more than it was built on guile and cleverness. We would do well as a species to remember that.

[Forrest Greene]

21. Nicely Said

Empathy enhances the quality of life. By doing so, it qualifies as a survival tool.

Consider "Mutual Aid," the response to Charles Darwin written by nineteenth-century Russian scientist & political theorist Peter Kropotkin, who argues that co-operation is as, or more, significant in evolution as competition.

A lack of empathy is also often the way psychological conditions such as psychopathy & sociopathy are described.

[ChickMagic]

25. That's very true

Otherwise, poor nearsighted Zog would have been eaten by cave bears.

[Forrest Greene]

45. If Ever Grown Up Past Snark, Try It Out

That's "Mutual Aid: A Factor In Evolution," by Prince Peter Kropotkin.

<http://snipurl.com/27ecb>

[ChickMagic]

46. Huh?

That wasn't snark. It would have been my fate. I absolutely agree
that mutual aid is a factor - it's in some cases reflexive in the
case of the sympathetic gag reflex.

And thanks for the link - it's been a while since I studied all this
and probably need to see more recent research.

[Terran]

23. none taken

I've been derelict the last few years on my science reading, so there are probably lots of things I'm not aware of. I keep up with nanotechnology, that's about it. I should just subscribe to this forum, that would help.

I agree with your observation about art and empathy. Empathy is surely an internal understanding of how the minds of our fellow humans work; I don't think any art is made without such an understanding.

Here's a question: is the anatomical feature described above unique to mammals? I'm guessing quite a few, if not all mammals, have something like empathy within their own species, but I'm also thinking insects and reptiles don't, and have other survival strategies that take the place of it (like socially organized species, giving birth in large numbers, etc.).

[Indenturedebtor]

26. Well it is thought that any species that mimics

spontaneously has some network of mirror neurons. And in truth what the mirror neurons appear to do is to cue other parts of the brain to activate when an external stimulus presents itself. It's some complicated shit that they're performing though when you think about it:

There are so many different types of cells that you rally to just move your arm to take a bite of icecream... the fact that you have cells that simulate that in the brain when you watch someone else do it is damn well amazing. It's a very complicated flow of information, and all the while the mirror neurons (or network as it is properly thought of) are keeping track of the whole thing and going "Ah I know what that person is doing, and I know what actions are involved, and I know what sensations and emotions are involved, and I know what neurons are associated will all of those emotions actions and sensations, so I'm just going to go ahead and run a simulation of that." :crazy: crazy shit.

So yes it's thought that any species that learns by modeling (ie watching others) employs a similar network, but primates have evolved a couple of new types of neurons with TONS more connections, that are likely capable of FAR more intense innate activities.

Now because our mirroring system is so complex, and because it appears to be mostly built from these "new" pyramidal neurons it is not surprising that it often breaks down or is simply not present. With many brain functions, other cells can be called in to substitute, but I conjecture that since this is a highly specialized type of cell, if you do not grow sufficient quantities of the neurons used for mirroring others emotions for example, your brain might naturally use the existing neurons capable of mirroring for mirroring actions important to basic survival... so you could learn what is good to eat and how to tie your shoe, but not be able to feel her pain when your mother cries. You might share in disgust and fear with your companions, but not beauty and love (as the former are more important for individual survival).

In much the same way if your motor cortex is damaged, if you train to regain function of say your arm, that function will recruit local neurons that had a less important function to your day to day life. On that note, it is important to know that people who say we only use a small percentage of our brains are flat out wrong. This is a popular myth. Waste not want not, and when a neuron isn't used it either repurposes or... it commits suicide. When that function breaks down you get tumors, seizures, all sorts of bad stuff.

This is mostly conjecture of course based on my own sparse understanding of neuroplasticity and evolution.

[drmeow]

43. Unfortunately

"Communication is essentially manipulating another persons consciousness, and in order to 'play the instrument' of another person's mind you have to know where the chords are." In actuality, psychopaths (who have NO empathy) are very good at 'playing the instrument' of another person's mind. They are very charming and manipulative ... and VERY effective at it. However, as I said, they have no empathy and no morals.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. Nature vs nurture

I also think people can have empathy beaten out of them. Check the way the FLDS kids are said to be raised. That would be enough to warp anyone's mind.

[Indenturedebtor]

14. Agree

But some people are just straight born without it... raises some disturbing questions about rehabilitation for some criminals really.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. So you would say that all criminals should be locked up

because of the possibility that some may not have the correct brain structure?

I have always been under the impression that science doesn't even begin to know everything there is to know about the brain. I've heard of people who have had to have whole sections removed and yet have somehow relearned or even retained function that scientists before said were lodged in the portion removed. Wouldn't it be exciting if someone attempted to figure out a way to re-train our brain in regards to emotional matters?

[Indenturedebtor]

20. No I'm not suggesting that people should be locked up based on

Brain scans or somesuch. But if rehabilitation is going to be most effective, perhaps the approach can be tailored to best suit the individuals "machinery". An important thing to realise though is that some people really were born with a much higher propensity to be criminals... now that's a WHOLE BIG can of worms there but it's the truth.

On your second paragraph you're absolutely right that science is still just getting into the nitty gritty. But you would likely be shocked at what is known.

One thing to remember about neuroplasticity is that there are only a couple types of neurons. They tend to cluster in different regious of the brain when they perform the same function, and that is by design, but neurons are generated even late in life, and they do migrate to damaged areas of the brain. Sometimes they're able to restore function, sometimes not. However, this does not appear to happen with mirror neurons.

It would be interesting though to see if a training regime could be adapted to teach antisocial people how to empathasize with others through cognitive training... ie "Ok Johnny when you hit people it feels like this." I suspect that rather than dictating the proper action given an understanding of another person's feelings, the mirror neurons act much like visual neurons in that they simply provide the brain with an internal representation of external information on a basic viceral level. You then decide what to do with those feelings.

Some people may never have those feelings, but if our society was more focused on "achievement" through good deeds towards otehrs, they could be internally motivated to do "the right thing". The medical model for psychology could definately have its uses here.

[Zorra]

12. I've often wondered if conservatism, sociopathy, and autism were linked somehow.

All three disorders are characterized by a distinct lack of empathy.

It would be interesting if behavioral and neural scientists studied conservatives and found that they are deficient in mirror neurons.

It might help explain why conservatives don't seem to care at all the soldiers/innocent people that get killed or maimed in senseless wars like Vietnam and Iraq.

Maybe they simply don't have the physical capacity to empathize with others.

[Indenturedebtor]

15. I wouldn't be terribly surprised

They can also be deficient in information. The way the media plays things nowadays, and the way the class divide seperates people, alot of times you don't really even see the pain. Most of the conservative people of my generation are woefully sheltered and sadly misinformed.

"Most Republicans are uninformed Democrats"... think that was JFK?

[Duer 157099]

19. I have seen links of autism to mirror neurons

And while I might characterize autistic people as "aloof" I don't think lack of empathy is something that comes right to mind. While with sociopaths, that is definitely the case. So there are clearly several factors involved (doh, like that's not obvious, lol)

Mirror neurons are definitely interesting.

[ElboRuum]

24. Yes.

I believe I read it in a recent SciAm not more than a year ago.

[RedCappedBandit]

17. Makes sense

I always try to put myself in the shoes of another. People around me do tell me I am very compassionate.

Going to read up on this more.. fascinating.

[Uncle Joe]

18. I believe this is also why head injuries to those parts of the brain

can cause people's personalities to change.

Thanks for the thread, Indenturedebtor.

[Turbineguy]

22. Thanks for the warning: "Science Content"

after all, we are in 21st Century America and such warnings are wholly appropriate..

[Lorien]

27. I think something needs to be added to the water

worldwide to improve the health of mirror neurons. I just watched "Blood Diamond" last night and man, there's a hell of a lot of unhealthy neurons out there!

[Indenturedebtor]

28. Yes it is a higher relatively recently evolved level of thinking

Empathy that is.

Just a personal observation here but it does seem that when you slide down Maslows scale you lose these more recently evolved brain functions as you go... which explains some of the evil there.

Part of the problem with the true evil ones in blood diamond is that they don't see their victims as human... that's a great way to get around your empathy :(

[Disturbed]

29. This explains Busholini's lack of conscience.

Busholini is a Silver Spoon Sociopath.

[crimsonblue]

30. There's a lot of ground-breaking work going on right now

with how chemical levels and neuron connections affect mood, personality and emotions. great OP!

[BeHereNow]

31. You must read the book about ponerology- the study of evil.

Just saying.
BHN

[Indenturedebtor]

32. I'll look it up thanks

Sounds really interesting.

[BeHereNow]

33. I can't put it down....

You can order a copy from red pill press out of Canada.
It is a MUST read for all DUers who are paying attention.

BHN

[Indenturedebtor]

34. Ok I read the first few chapters as available at link below

http://www.ponerology.com/evil_1.html

Personally I found it very interesting to read an Eastern European breakdown of psychopathology. However, I found the writing to be over simplified and under referenced with scientific data. As a matter of fact, though the author repeatedly criticized the DSM and the APA, his categories for abnormal psychology were shockingly broadbrush, and displayed the anatomical and functional knowledge of about 60 years ago. Not to say that it is invalid, simply obsolete. The DSM and the scientific techniques used to create and refine it are the model on which the American Medical Association based it's experimental methods. Fact. And no matter how you feel about western medicine, it can be pretty damn effective when you have access to it.

There are a lot of good books out there on abnormal psychology that weave in current scientific findings from studies that use both observational data from behavior (as seemingly did the author of Ponerology), as well as experimental data, AND use all of the amazing technologies we have over here in the form of MRI's, FMRI's etc. There is much to be revealed when you can actually watch a thought happen! Or believe it or not when you're pumping people full of drugs as we do here in the west. It's a great way to learn about how the brain works.

Please take a moment to browse the DSM IV online here http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html

I'm sure you'll find it VERY interesting. Just don't fall into the classic Psych student trap of diagnosing yourself with everything you read. There are very fine lines between disorder and health, and again between the different disorders. I am certain though that some historical figures will jump right out of you from the DSMIV.

[Corgigal]

35. Another thing

On one of the cable channels is a show called Most Evil. One of the topics was about mirror neurons and why certain types of people can be criminals. That show always as the cutting science results and I find it amazing. We might be able to understand the criminal mind after all.

[Indenturedebtor]

37. I've watched that a couple of times it's pretty good

I'm not generally into the serial killer whatnot, but I got sucked into a 2 hour marathon of that once!

The serial killers are SO sick that I think they're pretty well understood. It's the people in the middle that are so confounding and so damaging to society :(

[Duppers]

my dog had more empathy than many people

she could sense my distress and lovingly come nudge and lick me.

I've had few people lick me. ;)

[Kitty Herder]

38. I think dogs and cats are natural empaths.

I've known few dogs or cats that couldn't sense distress in their people and come to comfort them.

I know most people associate that with dogs more than cats, but my cats always know when I'm upset and come sit on my lap and comfort me. I've also had an experience when I was living in an apartment where pets were not allowed where I was sitting on the front lawn feeling really sad and two cats I'd never seen before came and rubbed against me, sat on my lap, purred and did whatever they could to comfort me. And it worked!

[Indenturedebtor]

39. I've never had a cat but my dog is an amazing critter

He's like a loving little person with fuzz :hug:

On that note when my wife and I were in Laos she twisted (possibly broke) her ankle and it was messed up for the next 2 months of travel. About a week after she messed it up we were hanging out in the hotel courtyard and a take muntjack (small endangered deer) came up and licked her ankle with it's really really long tongue!

Yeah I would conjecture that most social mammals that maintain social hierarchy can empathize to at least some extent. It is known that elephants will cry over the graves of their loved ones year after year :(

And then it went back to eating ciggarette butts... thing was a nicotine addict!

[Kitty Herder]

40. Aww. That's a sweet story.

Animals are amazing.

Speaking of elephants, I think we're only beginning to understand what intelligent, empathic creatures they are. I get teary-eyed when I think of what our species is doing to them.

[Indenturedebtor]

41. I know it's disgusting

We don't give to disease or poverty causes anymore... only to environmental and animal charities. That's how we choose our battles anyways :shrug: And to politicians this race anyways heh. When all the animals are gone there will still be some people crawling around like roaches.

Two of our most prized possessions are from the Elephant Art Institute in Thailand. Yes they do actually paint the pictures! You'd be amazed. Google "elephant art"

[Kitty Herder]

44. I've seen that. It's amazing.

They truly are brilliant animals.

[Duppers]

36. oops - a dup

wonder how that happened?

[Sequoia]

47. That Austrian guy who kept his daughter underground

says the media is making him out to be a monster but he isn't because he says he could've just let the 19 year old girl die. Now his lawyer says he isn't compentent to stand trail and how he's "a broken man". Good lord!! Broken, incompent....give me a break. He has no remorse for what he did to his daughter and his 2nd set of children.

[lonestarnot]

48. Interesting.