2 comments made by a MINISTER relative of mine. Help with answers would be great

[Maraya1969]

I know DU'ers most of the time can give me great information and I want to send back a great response. I know what he says is complete and utter bullshit.

PS - I sent him the post I have on here about what the Bible says about helping the poor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5941627

This is his response.

"Again, the problem is the assumption.

Two quick points: is support for single payer health care an indication of love for the poor? Hardly, since there are no poor in America.

Second: If single payer health care is such a boon, why do so many Canadians come to the United States for medical treatment?"

EDIT : I left out this part.

Here is a question for you: Name one medical procedure that has been invented in a country afflicted with single payer health care.


Me: :banghead:

[Maraya1969]

1. I need a good site with proof of poor people living in America .

And I know that some Canadians come here for health care but that is just for specialized treatments that they may not have in their country....like Americans go to other countries for specialized treatments, (I don't know what they are...I just know they go because the treatments are much cheaper)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. poverty in America is rampant and growing

Cite the MILLIONS without health care--and those who work and yet cannot support their families on their wages. If he would check Canadian sources, he'd find that most Canadians stay home for health care.

[Maine-i-acs]

3. Replies here:

1 - If there are no poor in America, who is living in the giant tent sity outside of LA? Vacationers? (And I saw a big one in NOLA last month too...) Link: http://features.us.reuters.com/cover/news/D8C99CD0-AF35-11DC-9E67-616F0DA5.html


2 - There are a great many more people crossing the border the other way to get medications and treatment. Canadians have a much higher approval of their health care system than Americans do. And Americans are going to India and Mexico for operations, so something's not quite right with health care here, eh Padre?

[Frustratedlady]

4. I believe your relative needs counseling.

Tell him to pull his head out of the sand and look around.

[TrogL]

5. The Canadian government PAYS for them to go to the States

Actually, health care is a provincial matter but let's not confuse them.

If it's less expensive for someone to nip across the border for needed treatment, or that treatment isn't available in Canada (eg. some bizarre kind of transplant) then it makes perfect sense for the government to pay for US treatment.

As for "so many", it's actually a rarety.

[Bill McBlueState]

6. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

If someone claims that "there are no poor in America," it's up to him to provide evidence of that claim. Ask him for proof before you waste your time addressing the argument.

[sandnsea]

7. Why do we have Medicaid and Medicare

if we haven't decided, that as a 'Christian nation', we have an obligation to care for the sick, elderly, disabled, and poor.

Rich Canadians come here for the same reason rich Americans get tests and treatment quicker than those of us with insurance, they can demand whatever they want because they can pay for it.

Please see the history of organ transplant, and note the number of US advances were done at universities, not private hospitals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplant

Also, note stem cell research is being done in single payer countries because our assinine religious won't support it.

[tonkatoy57]

8. A Minister?

You mean, like, someone who goes to seminary and studies the bible, with like you know, an emphasis on the New Testament? That kind of minister?

Your relative is a little, how shall we say, obtuse. No?

He should, perhaps, spend more time, say, working for social justice than he does listening to talk radio.

Just out of curiosity, is he a minister in a recognized and organized denomination or does he freelance as the minister at the First Church of the Loblolly Pine and Used Car Lot?

[Maraya1969]

13. He is a Presbyterian minister who went to seminary at Princeton and has a PHD

Run Run Flee Flee!!!!!!!!!!!..........................:hide:

I am serious. He is so indoctrinated. I can hardly believe he sounds so idiotic and can sport a Phd after his name, (The Phd is in ministry or something like that...not anything that requires logic)

Then again there is Dr. James Dobson and others, (can't remember who). Nutcakes who manage to get those letter that seem so impressive.

[SeattleGirl]

14. Just goes to show that a formal education doesn't necessarily

make one smart.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. He may be affiliated with the Institute on Religion and Democracy

a right-wing "think" tank that has little to do with either religion or democracy but is aimed at infiltrating and coopting the mainstream, liberal churches.

[depakid]

27. He may have a PhD but he sounds delusional to me

Not even worth arguing the first point, but as to the second-

Canadians don't flood over the border for healthcare.

That's simply propaganda and if he actually took the time to use his PhD research skills he'd know that.

Pharmaceuticals on the other hand, do flood across the border- because Canadians are smart enough to use their governments buying power to make them more affordable.

As to treatments invented abroad- again the guy sounds delusional, but here's one that might make his head spin.

The vaccine for cervical cancer (caused by HPV) was "invented" by an Australian.

[tom_paine]

31. No, he is a Bushie-Nazi monster who would kill you in a second if he was told it was OK.

by Bushie-Nazi authorities and FAUX "News".

Well, you're blood, so he wouldn't kill you personally. But he would likely think you had it coming, you liberal terrorist.

[Ilsa]

34. I had a minister like that. He left the Presbyterian Church

eventually because he was so messed up about evangelicalism and science. He also had a ThD, and initially made alot of money in business.

Rightwingers are convinced that there are no poor people if they happen to have cable, cell phones, or dvd players.

[undeterred]

9. It was an Australian doctor who figured out that some ulcers

are caused by acid loving bacteria in the stomach. He had to prove it on himself to be taken seriously.

We have a much bigger population than Canada so we have more choice and we do have some excellent doctors.

We have 47 million people without health insurance and no poor?

[Ilsa]

10. Laparoscopic gallbladder removal was pioneered in Canada. Here's more:

http://www.healthcare-now.org/single_payer_faqs.html

What about medical research?
Much current medical research is publicly-financed through the National Institutes of Health. Under a universal health care system this would continue. A great deal of drug research, for example, is funded by the government. Drug companies are invited in when it comes to marketing successful new drugs. AZT for HIV patients is one example. All the expensive clinical trials were conducted with government money. When it was found to be effective, marketing rights went to the drug company. (This is a controversial practice because it means pharmaceutical companies enjoy significant profits on the back of taxpayer-financed research.)

Medical research does not disappear under universal health care system. Many famous discoveries have been made in countries that have national health care systems. Laparoscopic gallbladder removal was pioneered in Canada. The CT scan was invented in England. The new treatment to cure juvenile diabetics by transplanting pancreatic cells was developed in Canada.

It is also important to note that studies show that the number of clinical research grants declines in areas of high HMO penetration. This suggests that managed care increasingly threatens clinical research. Another study surveyed medical school faculty and found that it was more difficult to do research in areas with high HMO penetration.

SNIP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, cholecystectomy is a very frequent procedure, thanks to our crappy diets. Doing a lap chole instead of full surgery is alot cheaper and easier to recover from.

[notfullofit]

21. Don't forget the best of all....

the British and DNA

[Ilsa]

32. Ah, yes, Watson and Crick! nt

[Marr]

11. I'm sorry, but he's a fool.

Proving that there are poor people in America is like proving there are trees in America. They're all over the place. Who does he think makes up the left side of those economic charts?

I don't even argue with stupid people anymore. Their only intellectual goal is to frustrate you. They consider that winning.

[ptolle]

12. no poor?

I suppose judged by the standards of the slums of rio de Janeiro or any third world nation there is less abject poverty here, or he's raised the bar so high that hardly anyone qualifies.
Not all ministers are filled with the spirit of christly love, and no offense intended, this guy sounds like he's a wingnut first and a minister second.Next time he hits you with that line about Canadians ask him just how many and where did he get the number. In my experience the spluttering and stammering can damn near wet your shirt.You might ask as well for some numbers on the "poor"along with his definition of poverty.Sounds to me like you caught this person out a bit and they went all defensive on you.

[tjwash]

28. Actually...

...if you go in to the more poverty stricken rural areas in our country, they look a lot like slums in some of the third world nations I have been to.

[DFW]

15. Here in Germany, they invented a procedure that I had done here

One of the three bones (anvil, of hammer, anvil and stirrup) in my
left ear had rotted away after an infection. I was directed to an
ENT clinic in Düsseldorf, where one of the surgeons was on of the
inventors of a titanium prosthesis that sits between the hammer and
the stirrup and replaces the physical connection lost when the anvil
was gone (happens more often than is thought, apparently). My hearing
in that ear was 95% restored after the operation, and ENT surgeons from
the States have trained at this hospital to get experience in how to
perform the procedure.

Here's another irritating irony:

I have had numerous surgeries done here in Germany, including an emergency
insertion of two coronary stents. They were done in some of Germany's top
clinics, and the bill came to a fraction of what the same procedures would
have cost in the USA. What did our American insurance do? Instead of being
delighted at footing a bill that was less than half what it would have been
if I had been treated in the USA, they gave me a hard time about reimbursing
me because the procedures were not done by a doctor on their "approved" list.

I only wonder at the pacifist sentiments that have so far inhibited the
throwing of firebombs through the windows of American private health
insurance companies.

[LeftHander]

16. Private Health Care only treats peiople that can pay...

Single payer countries spent time caring for everyone...not just the 45% or so that can afford coverage or treatment.

The real advances in single payer countries are

1. they don't suffer as much from obesity and violence.
2. They created methods and standards of care that America adopts.

Ask you minister friend if he has health insurance?

[Maraya1969]

29. I'm pretty sure the church has always paid for his insurance. I don't

know what is going to happen to his kids though. I think they may be covered as long as they are in school. 2 are in college and 1 is still in high school/

His oldest has a learning disability and is going to a special college for kids with these problems. I don't know what is going to happen when he graduates because even though he will have this degree he can't so math....at all. He can't understand any of it.

So I fear he is going to be doing a menial job that will not cover him and his needs.

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Here's a site that points out there are lots of 'poor' people in America.

http://www.povertyinamerica.psu.edu/

"The abjectly poor in America are individuals living on $5,250 a year. For a family of three, two adults and a child, the level of income is $6,922; for a family of four, $10,222. This level of poverty in comparative terms is only slightly above the poverty line originally set in the 1960s and affords a person little more than food and shelter.

The $5,250 for an abjectly poor individual means a bare bones budget of$437/month. Of that total, no more than $50 is available per week for food, or $7.14 day––about two big Macs and a drink, or 1200-1600 calories a day and 120 grams of fat. The residual income supports a housing expenditure in the same range of $200/month, which in most places in the country yields a bed in a group home, leaving about $37 for incidentals"

American Medical Tourism is going by leaps and bounds. http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1321269/americans_embrace_medical_tourism/index.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2131601/
"Last year, the medical-tourism business grossed around $40 billion, and the numbers are getting bigger every day. A recent McKinsey study predicts that medical tourism in India, worth $333 million last year, will bring in $2.3 billion by 2012. Compare price tags and you'll understand why. A bone-marrow transplant costs $2.5 million in the United States. Doctors in India can do it for $26,000. Heart-bypass surgery runs $60,000 to $150,000 in this country. In Asia, the average cost is $10,000. Other less-serious procedures—tummy tucks, face lifts, breast implants, LASIK eye surgery, even MRIs and dental work—can also be had at a fraction of they cost here."

Whereas, Canada wants to become the next 'Mecca' for American medical tourists.
http://healthbase.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/medical-tourism-to-canada/

Eliminating wait times in Canada’s health care system would allow this country to become a mecca for medical “tourists,” the president of the Canadian Medical Association said yesterday.

“Consider that the biggest consumers in the $40 billion medical tourism business are Americans,” Day told a meeting of the Empire Club in Toronto, referring to people who travel out of their country to seek specialized medical care.

“This is a potentially massive new industry for Canada (but) a prerequisite is the elimination of our wait times.”

Sure hope your Rev. gets some of the Christian message before he needs a new career.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Hrrrumph!

As regards 'medical procedures invented in a country with single payer healthcare': British scientist Charnley pioneered joint replacement surgery in the 1960s/70s, and at around the same time, another British researcher (Black, I think), devised beta-blockers. Also, Richard Doll and Richard Peto carried out the research that demonstrated that smoking can cause cancer - though as that's preventive medicine, perhaps it doesn't count as a 'procedure'. And lots more.

Here is the Medical Research Council (our biggest public funder of medical research) summary of recent achievements in medicine that were funded by the MRC.

http://www.mrc.ac.uk/OurResearch/Impact/ReecentAdvances/index.htm


P.S. Where does he get the idea that there are no poor people in America???

[JerseygirlCT]

19. There are no poor in America?

Wow. Who knew?

[noel711]

20. I don't know if this will help, Maraya... but...

No poor in AMerica?
Would he like to walk the streets of Philadelphia,Allentown Pa, Chicago, New York City?
His comments are a distraction from his moral responsibility...
Here's some Bible ammo to help you...

(I'm one of those big-mouthed-radical-feminist-rabble-rousing-female pastors who the fundies love to hate...)

Deny poor people food? What does the Bible say?

Leviticus 19:10- Do not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes for your vineyard; leave them for the poor and alien. (a statement against hoarding the fruit of the harvest...)
partnered with:
Leviticus 23:22- When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the edges of the field, or gather the gleanings of the harvest.. leave them for the poor and for the alien..

How about debt?

Biblical Injunction fo have a year of 'Jubilee,' Deuteronomy 15: "Every seventh year grant a remission of debts.. there will be no one in need among you.. when the Lord has blessed you, lend to many nations but do not borrow.. If there is among you anyone in need..do not be hard hearted or tight fisted toward your needy neighbor.. open your hand, willingly lending enough to meet the need."

Proverbs 14:21- Those who despise their neighbors are sinners, but happy are those who are kind to the poor."

The prophet Isaiah really gave it to the selfish; he was one of the first prophets to blast the middle class for ignoring the poor and needy among them:
Isaiah 3:15- "What do you mean by crushing my people, by grinding the face of the poor? says the Lord.."
Isaiah 10: "Ah, you who make inquitous decrees, who write oppressive statues, to turn aside the needy from justice, and rob the poor of my people of their right, that widow be your spoil, that you make the orphans your prey!"


Our good buddy Jeremiah 22:15-16- Are you a king becasue you compete in cedar? Didn't your father eat and drink and do justice and righteousnesss? He judged the cause of the poor and needy... but your eyes and heart are only on dishonest gain.. for shedding innocent blood and practicing oppression and violence..."

Some of this stuff is sooo applicable today!

And there are many statements about God's command to protect aliens and foreigners:
Exodus 18:3- "I have been a stranger in a strange land, and the God of my father was my help."

Leviticus 19:33-"When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt."

I won't bore you with more; anyone who is a student of the Bible knows that we all have a moral reponsibility to care for the vulnerable in our midst. All of these listed are from the Old Testament. If you want New TEstament, that would be another lengthy post.

[notfullofit]

22. Ask him if he has ever

visited a homeless shelter.

[KG]

23. he's living in a fairy tale world.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Soft contact lenses were invented in the former Czechoslovakia

:-)

[baby_mouse]

26. self delete

[tom_paine]

30. No poor in America? I'd slap his Bushie-Nazi face for that!

Then I'd drag his ass down to North Philly, or whatever impoverished area is nearest him and drop him the fuck off and tell him to walk home through this rich, rich land.

Fuck him. He's a fucking idiot to say there are no poor in America.

As to points two and three, they are transparent Bushie Lies long debunked. A quick Googling should give you all the ammunitionyou need. Of course, when dealing with Bushie-Nazi monsters like your minister here, the stock phrase response is (for the Bushies) "that's just Liberal Propaganda.

(for the Nazis) "That's just Jewish Propaganda."

So many similarities between Bushies and nazis. So damned many.

[Greyhound]

33. Two bald-faced lies. He calls himself a minister? Well, I guess we know

what kind of parishioners he attracts. Another great argument for taxing churches just like any other business.

[trof]

35. "Banting's Miracle: The Story of the Discoverer of Insulin."

Sir Frederick Grant Banting, KBE, MC, MD, FRSC (November 14, 1891 – February 21, 1941) was a Canadian medical scientist, doctor and Nobel laureate noted as one of the co-discovers of insulin.

A childhood friend of mine and sort of 'additional' grandfather was Dr. Seale Harris. He was a friend and admirer of Banting and wrote the biography "Banting's Miracle: The Story of the Discoverer of Insulin" about him and his discovery of insulin.

"Seale Harris (born March 13, 1870 – died 1957) was an American physician and researcher born in Cedartown, Georgia and nicknamed "the Benjamin Franklin of Medicine" by contemporaries for his leadership and writing on a wide range of medical and political topics. Dr. Seale Harris' most celebrated accomplishments were his 1924 discovery of Hyperinsulinism<2> and his recognition of spontaneous hypoglycemia.<3>
Seale Harris (born March 13, 1870 – died 1957) was an American physician and researcher born in Cedartown, Georgia and nicknamed "the Benjamin Franklin of Medicine" by contemporaries for his leadership and writing on a wide range of medical and political topics. Dr. Seale Harris' most celebrated accomplishments were his 1924 discovery of Hyperinsulinism<2> and his recognition of spontaneous hypoglycemia.<3>"

[dysfunctional press]

36. cuba has been making some pretty significant medical strides too...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3284995.stm

The country's first breakthrough in medical research was its discovery and patenting of meningitis-B vaccine in late 1980s.

It has been successfully exported to cope with epidemics in South American countries including Brazil and Argentina.

The vaccine has now been licensed to GlaxoSmithKline who will now market it in Europe and it is hoped eventually in the USA.

During the last few years the biggest earner for Cuban biotechnology has been the export of Hepatitis-B vaccine to more than 30 countries.

The Cuban vaccine is widely regarded as the more effective than Belgian and US-produced vaccines.

Another growing source of income is health tourism, with a number of specialist hospitals, clinics, health spas and resorts catering to foreign visitors.

Last year more than 5000 foreign patients travelled to Cuba for a wide range of treatments including eye-surgery, neurological disorders such as multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's' disease, and orthopaedics.

Most patients are from Latin America.

However the unique Cuban treatment for retinitis pigmentosa, often known as night blindness, has attracted many patients from Europe and North America,

Cuba's cutting-edge products for neck and breast cancer have caused the biggest stir in the world of biotechnology.

They have just been licensed to a German pharmaceutical company, with rights to develop the drug TheraCIM h-R3 for the European market.

Analysts say so far the commercial rewards for Cuba's many medical innovations have only been a fraction of their potential.

But if TheraCim h-R3 receives regulatory approval, it could become a standard cancer treatment in Europe in four or five years, with estimated sales of around $3bn a year.