Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

US actions in Vietnam and Iraq are genocide

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:55 PM
Original message
US actions in Vietnam and Iraq are genocide
1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2, defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

US intervention in Indochina began and thus proceeded from support for the French attempt (with intent) to destroy the independent nation of Vietnam. All subsequent US actions qualify as continuing this attack on a national group.

In addition, the national group of the Vietnamese was designated originally for colonization by the French on the basis of a racist assessment of European superiority. Following directly from the failed French genocidal war, the US intervened with its own troops, using an invented incident as the pretext, and without valid grounds for intervention in any body of law. As we ultimately found out from the documents, the invalid (and immoral) motives of the planners valued the lives of Vietnamese and other non-whites or non-Americans as particularly expendable on behalf of geostrategic (and imperialist) considerations.

The US power thereupon created a bogus nation under a puppet government in the south of Vietnam. To impose its will against the resistance of the Vietnamese people, it employed all means normally associated with genocide: bombings and massacres of civilian populations, summary execution of captured partisans, rounding up of civilian populations involuntarily into concentration camps with conditions bringing about physical destruction in whole or in part (keeping them away from their fields, lower calorie intake ultimately results). This was accompanied throughout by a widespread racist rhetoric (not official) among troops and on homefront about gooks and slopeheads and how we should just kill them all, and political pressure to use nukes and bomb the dikes killing millions at a blow.

In general, I object strenuously on moral grounds to a definition of genocide under which a white government killing two million brown civilians in an unprovoked aggressive war is considered to have committed genocide only if it announced an explicit and official ideology that defined those civilians as an undesirable racial category; but the same government is off the hook for genocide if those two million people were "merely" "collateral" (but do note: predictable) casualties who happened to be in the way of an imperial quest for control over oil (for example). If we accept this definition, then killing all people in an area indiscriminately (but for their wealth) is considered less genocidal than a targeted killing of some of the people in that area. Anyone who insists on this definition perhaps needs to come up with a word for a crime worse than genocide.

In practice, the definition of genocide prevalent among some on this board, i.e., those who wish to exclude the US crimes in Vietnam and Iraq, effectively covers in particular for the crimes of Western imperialism. This is because by the mythology associated with Western imperialism, its crimes are almost never due to racism but only for national interest, or else arise from a noble desire to civilize the world. Perhaps even King Leopold's destruction and murder of 10 million people in the Congo in about 10 years (worked to death as slaves, arms hacked off for poor performance, starved to death, massacred) would not qualify as genocide, since the primary motive was not to kill Africans per se, but to plunder the region's wealth.

If anything, killing entire peoples incidentally with the motive of plunder should be considered equally criminal to killing them with the motive of hatred. Keep in mind that even Hitler has had apologists who claimed the Nazi crimes were committed in the course of a strict Realpolitik and struggle among the European powers. Killing masses of civilians, or taking actions that predictably lead to their deaths, should be roughly seen as equally criminal whatever the motives, which ultimately may be unknowable.

One larger point surely is that the Belgian destruction of the Congolese peoples would never have happened to the same extent if Leopold's ideology and religious beliefs had honored black people as human beings equal to white people. And the same is true of the US actions in Vietnam and Iraq, two nations that (unlike Germany and Japan) never attacked or provoked or declared war on the US, or even posed potential threats to its security. The one-sided killing of millions of people there by invading American troops is inconceivable outside the context of the racist worldview that values American civilization and interests as superior to those of other nations, especially insofar as these are predominantly non-white, non-European and non-Christian nations. Whether or not that racism is stated explicitly or even fully conscious is secondary.

The political will to attack or occupy Iraq would have never been formed if it had been a nation of white, mostly Christian (or Jewish) people; and it would have never been attacked if it could have defended itself. Those two facts are inescapable, and they amply justify an Iranian policy to build nuclear weapons, if that is in fact what they are doing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. So, what else is new? And where is the anti war movement?
Nobody gives a shit about it except, elect obama - maybe he can figure it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Me. I give a shit about it.
Doesn't mean I do anything effective about it, or have a clue, but I do.

Lots of people give a shit about it.

The people over there give a shit about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evecie Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Lyndon Johnson will go to hell for the Vietnam war
He showed no remorse about going to war with a false pretext (gulf of tonkin).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. It's a shame no president has ever hanged.
Many of them had it coming, after a due process trial of course, and Johnson was one of them. But this country proved to be a bust as a Revolutionary project, and rather than taking democracy seriously, we carved the faces of presidents into mountains, like Roman deities. This country is no place where justice is done. For the power elite, crime almost always goes unpunished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Let's not forget Harry Truman and JFK.
Ho Chi Minh was an American ally during World War II against the Japanese. The Americans trained him and his 'freedom fighters'. The only think Ho ever wanted, was Independence from France. After WWII, Ho pleaded Truman to recognize Vietnam's Independence and to pressure France in getting out. Instead, Truman turned onto the people who helped the US during the war and declared them 'communist allies of the USSR'.

Also, remember it was Kennedy who got the US involved militarily in Vietnam in the first place. He was the one who started adding more and more 'advisers' in Vietnam, and these 'advisers' had the authority to engage in combat on the side of the South-Vietnamese. South Vietnam's leader was a dictator who was supported by Kennedy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
T Monk Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
20.  i think it was Ike who got us into the Vietnam
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. & kick for readers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I read
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's hard for people to accept.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Apparently...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. hmmm...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. wtf? One rec?
This is excellent Jack! It deserves the greatest page!

:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thanks.
I'm concerned at the denialism rampant on the liberal left.

No matter how directed and atrocious the policy, the excuse is always given that it's out of stupidity, never intent, never a base motive. As though the motive even matters, when the crime is killing a whole nation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Perfectly stated! Kicked and Recommended!
Funny that no genocide-deniers want to respond here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oops...too late for recommending
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thanks regardless - wonder if the people who usually jump to object
when the g-word is applied to US or Western policy are going to show up here at all.

The fact is, if the 18-year US war against Iraq does not fit a definition of genocide, especially from 2003 forward, then it's the definition that's deficient.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Exactly! When our government balked & whined about all who protested those sanctions...
many people were already bringing the word genocide into the equation. I think some who most adamantly refuse to see it for what it really is, don't look back far enough, to the starving of Iraqi children, and seem to think that USA foreign policy is somehow immune from the same harsh criticism that our own government uses to define other nations' "genocidal policies".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
16. morning kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
T Monk Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. please include panama (just cause) and phillipines chile (condor)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Was any one of those replying here over 18 during the Vietnam war?
Edited on Thu May-22-08 04:23 PM by Mountainman
I think that those who, in hindsight, 40 years after an event, who were not around at the time of the event, present a pretty weak basis to depict the event by using the words of others who wrote about the event years after it happened. You can find some writer who supports your opinion if you look hard enough.

It is very much like a scientist who has a preconceived opinion and goes in search of evidence to prove it.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. .
Edited on Thu May-22-08 04:21 PM by JackRiddler
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. So what. Are any of those replying here from Vietnam?
When you say one has to have personal experience of a time to express an opinion about it, you seem to ignore that no two personal experiences are ever alike.

John McCain, who on command dropped fire and death on peasants, has a different memory of that time than the Vietnamese who survived his attacks. A young American working class man who did the moral and reasonable thing, and evaded the draft, may remember things differently from one who, like Cheney, got to evade it by having his parents send him to a rich college.

But otherwise, you seem to be saying that we can know nothing about history, and should defer always to those who experienced it directly, no matter what their interests or limitations may have been. By your rule, no one is allowed to have an opinion on the First World War or the Russian Revolution, unless they're about 110 years old. And if you weren't around for the Spanish Inquisition, please don't tell us how bad it was.

I disagree.

And I didn't cite any other writer in the OP. I wrote my opinion, in my words. I was a young child at the time, but I did my best to learn about it growing up - both from books and from older people. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I didn't say you had to have personal experience to express an opinion.
Though there are many opinions and only one truth.

The war in Vietnam was not genocide. I was there but that doesn't make my opinion more valid than yours but who ever is closer to the truth is more valid. I think I am closer to the truth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. You were there.
So what was your role, what did you do? What was your understanding of what you were doing?

How did it fit into the bigger picture of the US action? How do you reach your conclusion?

Was the US action in Vietnam right or wrong? Excusable or inexcusable? Criminal or not?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. The Vietnam war was wrong, immoral and I'd hoped we would learn from it.
Edited on Fri May-23-08 10:28 AM by Mountainman
After being in the war for 6 months I decided not to support it anymore. I volunteered for a permanent duty of building a perimeter fence around Long Bihn. Then Tet happened and I was put back in the fighting again.

I don't really know what the war was about, but I doubt it was to stop communism. Sometimes I think it was about oil also. There is oil in the South China Sea and now Russia is getting it.

Not a day goes by that I don't regret being a part of that war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Thank you for that story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
27. I sourced this yesterday and got one response...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC