Insurance for some is great, while others are just out of luck.

[The Wielding Truth]

I have a son who is working full time as a permanent sub teacher in a local elementary school. He was required to sign a waver for insurance coverage for full time employees to be hired.He graduated from College in 'O7 and has student loans,car payment,car insurance,and the expenses we all have with working. He lives here with us so he has a roof over his head and food, but he has no insurance. We cannot afford coverage. He also started filling in as a server at a local buffet part time.

Friday he woke up with his shoulder in pain so severe I thought it may be dislocated or there may be other more serious problems. He had no pin-point moment when he injured it except maybe sleeping on it wrong. After the emergency room, cost unknown for now, and a diagnosis of he slept on it wrong, they ordered that he take 800 ibuprofen and rest it. The next day he was unable to move it with out extreme pain, and was hot and swollen.

I called our chiropractor and had him seen the same day. The Dr. said it was bursitis and treated it with manipulation and cold compresses. The cost was reasonable, but for someone working full time and making $9 an hour it is another blow to survival.

Having this in mind I asked the women who handles the billing and appointments how it could be so difficult for this country to have universal health care.

It was as though I asked her why she wouldn't love to date Jeffery Dahmer. I steel door slammed down on our conversation and she said that we would never want that in the United States.

Wow. I was so surprised that someone who has to deal with suffering everyday and charge people, most of who cannot really afford Chiropractic care,fees that in some cases considered a luxury expense,could be so callous.

I tried to get though to her reasoning. I asked her how she could not be in favor of better health care. She said looked down at her papers and coldly repeated the ideas of the terrible health care in Canada and how long that must wait to be treated and how they come here for the best care.

Well I was shocked and reminded her that for those without insurance national health care would really benefit. She bristled again and I could see that she had had a busy job to do. We left.

How can we fight the notion that universal health care is the devil?

[fight4my3sons]

1. I wonder if she has actually spoken to anyone who lives

in a country that has national health care? Obviously not.

[The Wielding Truth]

4. I doubt it,too. but I couldn't push her anymore at her job.

I friend of mine was hurt while fishing in Canada and went to the hospital. When he left he was shocked. There was no bill!

[The Wielding Truth]

6. Any pointers out there for anti-universal confrontations?

[raccoon]

2. I agree with you--about a week ago I had a conversation with someone about this.

She was like, "National health care? THen we'd have to wait, like they do in Canada!"

IOW, "I've got mine, the hell with anybody else."

Hope your son is better. I wonder if his shoulder pain may be a form of repetitive strain injury from his work as a server? Sounds like it could be. If so, and it doesn't go away, I strongly urge that he quit that job. If you try to get workmen's comp for a repetitive strain injury caused by your work, you're screwn. Doctors don't like to say those problems are caused by work because they don't want to get involved in a court case.

[The Wielding Truth]

3. Thanks, it seems to be improving. Another trip to the Dr. is set up.

More money.It's scary out here for those uninsured. We hope it will heal soon and not go to the place of lawyers or even payment plans.

Are we being mislead? Is universal health care too inferior for USA to offer?

[Progressive_In_NC]

50. I got sick in Waterloo and drove quite a ways but got great treatment

My aunt lives there and she says the only drawback is for specialized things like biopsies and MRIs they have to wait. That scares me a bit since Cancer kills but at least everyone has access to it.

[magellan]

5. Some doctors become specialists to make a lot of money

Their employees benefit as well. This woman was probably thinking of her own paycheck rather than your son and the many people like him.

My husband had specialist care in the UK for a heart condition. As it was non-life-threatening he had to wait, but the care he received was excellent.

[The Wielding Truth]

7. How long was his wait? Sometimes we have to wait as well.

[magellan]

8. Almost two months

The only trouble we had was with his GP, the referrer, who was very skilled but had zero interpersonal skills. We left his office with this appointment at the hospital for three months on and no idea whether my husband was going to have "the big one" or not. We called the hospital ourselves and they checked his charts and said there was no need to worry, but they moved the appointment up a month for us anyway just to reduce his anxiety. It WAS indeed nothing major, something his GP could have gotten across better.

BTW, he wasn't our usual GP but one who stepped in (several doctors handle the workload at UK surgeries, i.e. doctor's office, and if your regular GP isn't available another sees you). We made sure not to get him again!

[The Wielding Truth]

13. Most of the time our surgeries are scheduled in about

the same time unless it is extremely life threatening .

Is your husband doing well?

[magellan]

23. Yes, he's absolutely fine

He had an irregular heartbeat due to stress. The specialist put him on -- oh, what was it called now? I can't remember -- but he was on that for several months and then he was fine again and hasn't had a problem with his heart since.

I used to be very angry at the NHS because of that incident, but I've since sorted it out in my mind and know the problem was with the GP, not the system itself which worked as it should.

I hope your son is feeling better soon. If he hasn't already done, see if he can negotiate a payment schedule with the doctors involved. It may not lift the financial burden but it may help ease it somewhat.

[The Wielding Truth]

30. I'm glad he's on the mend. There is so much that can be done

for heart problems.
:hug:

[Juche]

9. Her job may depend on the insurance industry

If she handles billings she may be out of a job if we had medicare for all. So that explains alot.

To get informed on how to debate against anti-UHC read either of these things.

Health Care Meltdown

http://www.amazon.com/Health-Care-Meltdown-Confronting-Failing/dp/0911469222

PNHP FAQ

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php

[The Wielding Truth]

11. Yep. That is my most recent thought . I think she must think

along those lines. Much like the Nuclear Power plant worker or the oil market investor must rationalize to care for their own profit or other people's welfare? I see it as you do know. But can we ever change that?

[bean fidhleir]

20. As Gore Vidal has said, that's the genius of the US ruling class

By making life itself dependent on having a job, they make sure that millions of people like that clerk will fight to the death against any change, no matter how good, that could put them personally out of work.

[zeos3]

34. Agreed

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair

[unapatriciated]

35. She wouldn't necessarily be out of a job...

just billing a different entity. You still have billing in a single payor plan. My daughter is a medical biller for a chiropractor's office in Oregon and she thought the same thing until I pointed out she bills medicare.

[Juche]

56. medicare has less overhead

I think 22-30% of private insurance goes to overhead (administration, marketing, other things) whereas about 3-5% goes to that in medicare. So if we had HR 676 there is a chance she'd have trouble finding a new job.

However studies on the subject have claimed that the money saved from single payer can be used to retrain all the people unemployed by revamping healthcare.

[Coyote_Bandit]

10. The willfully ignorant

cannot and will not be informed or open minded. Many are far more interested in principle and ideology than in the welfare of other people, or the environment or the world as a whole.

You're right. We live in a country where some folks are just SOL when it comes to access to health care. I have long since come to the realization that if I am diagnosed with a serious disease, chronic illness or incapacitating injury that I will be forced to make some difficult choices. And I am fortunate enough to have at least some high deductible catastrophic health coverage. Even so, I can see myself feeling forced to choose to go without care. As is, I haven't seen a doctor for any reason in over ten years and haven't had routine preventative care in over fifteen years.

The thing is we do have government provided tax payer funded access to health care available to some - but not to others. All you have to do to qualify is be an elderly or disabled worker, a child of poverty, a Native American, a veteran. Sure, there are problems - sometimes very serious problems, with these health programs. But, guess what? Access to some minimal quality of care is a drastic improvement for those who do not otherwise have access to health care. If that were not true, all of these programs would fail because patients would choose other means of care. They don't.

What that suggests to me is that the health care activists ought to bring an equal protection suit on behalf of uninsured/underinsured citizens in need of health care. Some citizens are provided the taxpayer subsidized means to seek the basic rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness while others are denied the basic care that enables them to live. It is an argument rooted in the very foundational documents of our government. And yet I have encountered folks on this very board who oppose taking up this fight.

My best wishes for your sons quick recovery.

[The Wielding Truth]

12. Coyote , thanks . I think maybe equal protection is a strong

legal argument. I just wish I had a personal persuasive argument. Something that would cut to the heart of those who don't see the national problem of health care.

[Coyote_Bandit]

16. I

am a resident of red state hell. I share your frustration. Sadly, my experience is that many folks refuse to acknowledge problems until they or someone very close to them are personally impacted. Not much you can do to change those kinds of closed minds.

It is best to pick your battles. It is a far more effective use of my time and effort to seek to influence those who influence others and have input into decision making. Just my opinion of course.

It would be nice to know the medical receptionist acknowledges the need for universal health care. But given the circumstances of your exchange she may have felt constrained to express such agreement by her employer. Or she may have thought doing so would be understood as a personal validation of or intrusion into your circumstances. Just a thought.

[The Wielding Truth]

19. It's the RW wall that we encounter that frustrates me and you. I

see.

Do you think they will ever see the that it takes a recognition of those in need to improve the lives of everyone. I guess I will always be a Bleeding Heart Liberal. I just wish I could open the hearts of those who can't see that if we each give a little, and use it wisely,we can improve the lives of the people of this country.

[raccoon]

15. Well said, especially this:

"The thing is we do have government provided tax payer funded access to health care available to some - but not to others. All you have to do to qualify is be an elderly or disabled worker, a child of poverty, a Native American, a veteran. Sure, there are problems - sometimes very serious problems, with these health programs. But, guess what? Access to some minimal quality of care is a drastic improvement for those who do not otherwise have access to health care. If that were not true, all of these programs would fail because patients would choose other means of care. They don't."

[Sgent]

14. FYI

She wouldn't be impacted by Medicare for all -- Medicare doesn't cover chiropractors anyway.

[uppityperson]

17. It does here in WA. Doesn't pay lots, but it does cover chiropractors.

I rent a room in a chiropractic clinic and they have lots of medicare patients, send bills to ND, get paid some.

[The Wielding Truth]

18. I found this.......

Medicare pays only for chiropractic manipulation. It does not pay for x-rays, nutritional supplements, orthopedic supports or supplies if they are needed.

http://www.masschiro.com/insurance/medicare.htm

[kineneb]

21. My access to healthcare dictates my income

or lack thereof. Hubby died at the end of Mar., leaving me with no "official" income. I now have the choice of hoping SSI thinks I am crazy enough to be "disabled", thus qualifying for ~$800/mo and Medi-Cal. Or, I can find a part-time job that pays no more than $600/mo gross, and continue to qualify for CMSP*, without a share-of-cost. Any money I "officially" make over that $600 is has to be paid out before I can get any medical care or medicine. We spent down all of our assets to get his medical care. Now there is nothing left but the house and the car. No saving or retirement to fall back upon.

Yeah, I am pissed.

rant /off

*CMSP: County Medical Services Program- offered in CA to "medically indigent" adults in rural counties.

ed to add: Unless a widow/er is over 50 and disabled, there are no SS benefits available until proper retirement age (for me, 67). I got my survivor's benefit check of $255 already. (not even enough to bury someone, Hubby's cremation was almost $3,000- w/no fancy urn or services)

[The Wielding Truth]

26. Well. I hope things get better for you soon. It's tough to be

one who is caught in between Employee Health Insurance and Medicare.

[lpbk2713]

22. Enforce the Fairness Doctrine as it should be. Get the RW Radio Hatemongers off the air.

They talk against UHC like a broken record.

Almost as if they were all reading from the same script.

[The Wielding Truth]

27. How can anyone with a brain listen to that junk without getting

nauseated? I can't. The Fairness Doctrine will have to come with a new administration and strong congressional support and a Democratic Senate. It could happen!

[Vinca]

24. I'll bet you anything the dim receptionist worries about the death tax, too. nt

[The Wielding Truth]

28. Probably, she's not on my wave length. That's for sure.

:eyes:

[Javaman]

25. both my regular doc and my back doc want universal healthcare. nt

[The Wielding Truth]

29. Wow, are you in a blue state? I'm proud that they put you first.

:bounce:

[Javaman]

44. Red State, Blue City: Austin Texas ;) nt

[Mountainman]

31. A lot of people in the medical profession don't give a shit if you have insurance or not.

If you don't have the type of insurance that pays them close to 100% of their billing amount they don't want you because the could be spending the time seeing people who do.

I was a controller of a medical clinic for the last two years. Our doctors kept trying to find a way that they could cut down seeing Medi-Cal and Medicare patients. They want $x amount of money off their practice and that is the bottom line. If they don't get it they will go where they can.

Not all the doctors were that way. One out of 21 wasn't.

Our clinic would not make contracts with insurance companies that didn't pay at least what Medicare paid. When we don't have a contract with a company the patient pays the difference between what the insurance company pays and the billing amount. When we contract with them we accept the insurance companies agreed amount in the contract.

When the medical practitioners get what they want they don't want a change. I'm thinking that doctors would have to take less if there was a single payer system.


We look at this from the perspective of an uninsured person and the doctors look at it from the perspective of what money they will get.

[The Wielding Truth]

32. For profit health care. I see that doctors must get paid but

aren't we civilized enough to put lives over greed?

[bean fidhleir]

37. "aren't we civilized enough to put lives over greed?"

They are in Cuba - the docs there do it for the medicine, not the money.

People can say what they like, but a *good* socialist or even commie system beats the crap out of any capitalist system.

[raccoon]

42. Apparently not in the US. nt

[bean fidhleir]

38. My condolences for having to work for a group of moneygrubbers

Better they should have gone into stockbroking - at least then people's lives wouldn't be at stake.


(edit) I wonder whether people like that would switch over to stockbroking or something similar in the face of the lowered incomes from single-payer. Many would, I'm sure. But enough of them? We certainly don't need our lives being dependent on their kind.

[The Wielding Truth]

49. It's the lack of empathy that floors me. It's the " well too bad for

him" reaction that I don't get. It's not just his national problem ignored, but it's a social conscious that they lack. I just don't get how the RW brain works.

[bean fidhleir]

51. I've always felt that Adam Smith spelled it out for us as well as anyone can

'"All for ourselves and nothing for other people" seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind'

[RayOfHope]

41. I was watching a show on PBS about healthcare around the world

and in a segment on healthcare in the UK, it stated that doctors there get pretty good bonuses for actually keeping their patients healthy! So although they might not make as much money from office fees and such as a US dr. would, they do get compensation in other ways.

Wish these docs would bother to find out about other healthcare delivery systems.

[area51]

33. kick. (n/t)

[unapatriciated]

36. Did your son's shoulder pain start after he took the server job?

Bursitis is very common for servers especially if you are doing tray service. I grew up in a restaurant and worked many years as a server. When I went to tray service I started having shoulder pain (bursitis). I quit this type of work in the early 90's and my shoulder pain disappeared.

[The Wielding Truth]

48. He had just started back on a 1-11 shift with no breaks,except

restroom if necessary. Maybe that did it, but the pain didn't come till the next night at 4am.

???

[Vinca]

39. I was thinking about your son's shoulder this morning and remembered

an article I read about something called "frozen shoulder" that happens literally overnight - most commonly in older women, but who knows. The treatment is a cortisone injection. Probably has nothing to do with his condition, but thought I'd throw it in just in case.

[The Wielding Truth]

45. It is almost better. A vertebrae was out in his neck and once

it was released he could immediately straighten his arm. He went to work yesterday and today and is able to use it pretty much.

Weird, Huh?

I'm just so glad the chiropractor doesn't charge much and we can help him with that.

Thanks for thinking of him.

[madmom]

40. I have the exact same thing wrong with my shoulder and my dr gave the same

treatment unless you want cortisone shots or surgery there's not much else. In my job I have to use it constantly so I can't even rest it like I should.

[The Wielding Truth]

47. Rest is so important for bursitis. I think , however, that it has

been caused by a pinched nerve and it has been relieved. He is doing much better. We are so thankful that we could handle this in the least expensive way.

[Aragorn]

43. home remedies

Sad how posters turn to "recommendations for home remedies" when the issue is poor care and lack of accessibility to poor care. Those docs who aren't greedy or who care about patients can't afford the time to see them all. Patients who just need rest for an over-use condition can't afford the time off. Home remedies aren't always correct or adequate but some have no alternative under the present ssytem.

I remember working through college and med school and getting "tennis elbow" (bursitis) from restaurant work, which I could not afford to take time off from - forcing me to NOT use my first ever composite material tennis racket. Not much of a sacrifice on the latter of course.

When I got sick (not often thank goodness) and was moonlighting at a local hospital (still in med school) the docs there would not treat me since I had no insurance! I treated their patients after hours so they could sleep, for about $33/week plus an apartment.

[The Wielding Truth]

46. It's scary out here for those not insured and the fight for

universal health care is still an up hill battle. Unbelievable, isn't it? It's like running through a gauntlet. Some make it. Some don't

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. For one person's "luxury expense" is anothers "luxury income".

She thinks that she's entitled to maximize her access to your money because you need her services.

It's the same reason that AIDS medicines are many thousands of dollars each month. Pay up and no one gets hurt.

[TZ]

54. No the costs of medicine is a bit more complex than that

Its SOOO expensive to make these meds..Biological manufacturing is a high skilled, white collar competitive field. You have to have certain skills and the companies usually have to pay pretty high salaries to get skilled help.
Some of the pricing is a bit inflated but in terms of cost of production there are very few fields that have the same complexity in production. Thats why a lot of this is being shipped overseas..cheaper labor, less regulations etc.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Here's a real world example that disproves your assertion.

Zyrtec was $4.00/dose last year. The patent expired a couple of months ago. It is now $0.47/dose . At the same time, (surprise!) it was "approved" for OTC use. Generic Zyrtec now sells in a 300 ct bottle at Costco for $18. That's $0.06 a day.

The raw materials, the machinery and the people in the white suits cost 6 cents. The other $3.94 was profit.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

57. $12,544,000.00 per pound.

See my previous thread about my Spiriva inhaled powder medicine made by Boehringer Ingelheim and sold by Pfizer.

One daily dose, 18 micrograms of active ingredient (that's one MILLIONTH of a gram) is about $5.00.
That's $150.00 a month.

No medication costs that much to research and make.

I have liquid prescription eyedrops for allergies that are pretty damned expensive too.

Obscene profits. No mercy.

[Murtagh]

58. Medical Whistle Blowers Demand Reform

Medical Whistle Blowers Demand Reform

American Medicine is at a crossroads. The International Association of Whistleblowers (IAW) spotlighted the incredible danger to the public at its annual meeting May 11- 18, 2008. At the center of the conference were repeated findings that sham peer review is harming patients, and leading to cost increases, decreased quality, and in many cases excess deaths. Peer review is supposed to be the safeguard of the public, but instead has been used to suppress doctors who stand up for their patients.

The IAW teamed up with Government Accountability Project (GAP), led by legal director Tom Devine Esq, and with the Semmelweis society, named after the Hungarian physician Ignaz Semmelweis who revolutionized global health by showing that simple handwashing saves lives.

Victims of “sham” or “bad faith” peer review rarely gain access to any independent due process to challenge this unique form of retaliation, which in many cases results in the end of their careers as physicians. Bad faith peer review against one physician can and does persuade others to remain silent rather than advocate on behalf of their patients. Speakers at the conference urging integrity in medicine, and an end to sham peer reviews included:

o Patrick Campbell MD - Provided evidence to the FBI that lead to the successful raid at Tenet's Redding Hospital, where 83% of cardiovascular surgeries were found to be unnecessary. Unfortunately, the Justice Department failed to reward him. Dr. Campbell sued and prevailed through a landmark court of appeal decision.

o Roland Chalifoux DO - Neurosurgeon, President of the Semmelweis Society, who blew the whistle on competitors in Fort Worth Texas.

o Michael Bennett - President of the Coalition for Patients' Rights (CPR). Mr. Bennett lost his father due to an infection he received at the hospital. Mr. Bennett is a nationally recognized patient safety advocate.

Alan Dershowitz, the Counsel of Record for an amicus brief in a “sham” peer review case, wrote: the goals of the HCQIA and peer review are undermined, not promoted, when “qualified physicians are punished and excluded from practice because they have chosen to stand up for a patient. Whenever fewer physicians are willing to criticize the medical community out of fear of the dire consequences of a fundamentally unfair, bad faith peer review, an essential prong in the checks and balances integral to a successful health care program will be silenced.”

Without structural accountability, any structure is vulnerable to being exploited for unacceptable hidden agendas. That is what has happened with peer review.

The IAW unanimously adopted the GAP-Semmelweis plan for reform, and urged Congress to explore ways to prevent the misuse of peer review, including:
1. Launch a Government Accountability Office investigation to assess the vulnerability and extent of hospitals abusing the peer review process to retaliate against physician whistleblowers.
2. Conduct oversight hearings for a public forum on any significant GAO findings. Collectively with our partners in this area, we have heard the stories of hundreds of physician whistleblowers whose careers have been ruined because they chose to advocate for patient safety or challenged inadequate care at hospitals. These individuals are ready and willing to bear witness with first-hand accounts of their experiences.
3. Amend the HCQIA to help curb abuses of the peer review process. One possibility would be to add an affirmative defense of “whistleblower retaliation” to the HCQIA. A physician could then take this claim to an outside body, which could make a ruling as to whether whistleblower retaliation was a contributing factor in any employment decision. This type of independent review is necessary, and is similar to steps Congress is on the verge of taking to reform the security clearance process for national security employees.
4. Pass H.R. 4047, the Private Sector Whistleblower Protection Streamlining Act of 2007. Introduced by Reps. Lynn Woolsey and Education and Labor Committee Chairman George Miller, this legislation would streamline protections for all private sector employees, and protect physicians who are retaliated against for blowing the whistle on inadequate health care.
5. Pass H.R. 4650, the Congressional Disclosures Act of 2007. The legislation, introduced by Rep. Al Wynn, would give federal workers, contractors, and any other employee of an organization that receive payments from the federal government, including hospitals, access to court when they are prosecuted or otherwise harassed for blowing the whistle directly to Congress.

GAP is also pushing for this expansive definition of employee to be included in congressional efforts to overhaul protections for contractors in H.R. 985, Rep. Waxman's whistleblower legislation, which passed the House in March, and is soon to be reconciled with Senate whistleblower legislation.

Patients, citizens and taxpayers all have a stake in protecting the nation's health system. The inspiration of Ignaz Semmelweis was alive at this expanding annual event.


The joint task force of International Association of Whistleblowers (IAW) urges you to write your congressman, your senator, the media, and your friends to support the goal of a safer, freer American health system.

James J. Murtagh Jr.
Atlanta GA 30329

http://www.internationalassociationofwhistleblowers.net/
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_internat_080508_whistleblowers_annou.htm
http://makeitsafecampaign.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/prnewswire/press_releases/Georgia/2008/05/14/DC22457

[NNN0LHI]

53. Is there any credible, peer-reviewed scientific evidence that chiropractic care is beneficial?

Are there any accredited medical schools that teach chiropractic therapy?

Don

[Manifestor_of_Light]

59. Osteopaths are a combination of the two.

They get the same education as an M.D. plus another year on bones and joints.

I believe that there have been studies of workers' comp injuries that said that chiropractic was less costly and just as effective or more effective than mainstream surgery and treatment modalities.