The predictable nonsense about how bushco will declare martial

[cali]

law, cancel elections, detain millions of liberals, pull a false flag operation, bomb Iran, etc, etc, is enjoying a new burst of popularity here.

Codswallop. At least most of it. It's just within the realm of possibility that bushco will bomb Iran. Highly unlikely, imo, but possible. The other stuff? For the love of reason, some have been predicting this shit is imminent for the last several years. And it hasn't happened. It sure the hell won't happen now.

The GOP is severely wounded. bushco has little real power left. they certainly don't have the power to pull off a big false flag op. they don't have the power to declare martial law and elicit anything but a swift slap down. bush himself clearly can't wait to get out of Dodge, er, D.C. And how could they possibly round up and detain millions of liberals? bushco and what army?

As we draw nearer to the November election, this nonsense will mushroom here. And it's really no more than fear peddling. I dislike fear mongering from the left just as much as from the right, the center or from any other party.

Here's a few realities: bush will finish out his term as the weakened and highly unpopular figure he is. Obama will be the dem nominee and McCain will be the republican nominee. The election will be held. You and I won't be arrested and detained because we're liberal who attend our P&J group meetings and protest and write letters. Martial Law won't be declared and enacted. I'm doubtful that there will be a false flag operation. I don't think we'll see bombs dropped by U.S aircraft on Tehran.

[pocoloco]

1. And they will all go peacefully and quietely into their

prison cells??

Yeah, Right!

[JeanGrey]

148. WHAT Prison cells? Are we still deluding ourselves that

Bush and Co. are going to jail?

[Poll_Blind]

2. Yes, EVERYONE, gather round. Extinguish your nonsense and give Bush the benefit of the doubt.

What. The. Hell. Are. YOU. People. Thinking?

  Do I believe that Bush will impose martial law? I dunno. What wouldn't you put past the bastard? But I'm not going to get so hopped up on myself that I would address everyone and chastise them for their opinion.

PB

[cali]

4. I don't like fear mongering.

It isn't even possible for bush to detain millions of American liberals. It's patently ridiculous on its face. It isn't possible for him to enact martial laws or cancel elections. He isn't in the position of strength he was in just a year or so ago. I don't think he has any desire to stay a moment longer in the WH than he has to. The shiny toy has lost its allure for him.

[Poll_Blind]

14. You listed the following as equally unlikely:

* Bush declares martial law
* Bush cancels elections
* Bush detains millions of Liberals
* Bush pulls off a false flag operation
* Bush bombs Iran

  I don't know why you lump the last two in with the others seeing as he is internationally-famous for pulling off and attempting to pull off a number of false flag operations involving Iraq, up to the most recent example of Bush claiming that the Iranians were supplying weaponry for Iraqi insurgents, including a list of 20,000 weapons.

They're making it all up about Iran.

PB

[cali]

22. I did not do anything of the sort. I explicitly said that the bombing

of Iran was possible- if unlikely. And I explained why I don't think they have the resources to pull off an effective false flag operation.

[EOTE]

17. Fear mongering is very bad.

I mean, if 7 years ago I had told you that the * administration would allow the largest terrorist attack on U.S. soil ever to occur and then use that as a pretext to go to war, you should have rightly chastised me for fear mongering. If I then told you that *'s popularity would skyrocket into the %90s and he'd then use that popularity to destroy the constitution, that would be fear mongering as well. If I told you about $4 gas, the government's pitiful response to Katrina and another couple stolen elections, that would be more fear mongering and I would have been wrong to do that.

[cali]

25. nope. 9/11 was a shock to me but not a surprise.

And the bush of today is not the bush of even a couple of years ago. He has very little power left. Oh, and the response to 9/11 by most Americans neither surprised or shocked me.

[EOTE]

38. The point is that the * admin NEVER deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know if I think martial law is a likelihood, but I think there's a decent chance we could be there in a few months. We have no idea how this admin would react to being forced to give up power. They've been so evil the past 7+ years, I wouldn't put anything past them. And that's what scares the hell out of me.

[OwnedByFerrets]

33. To me, there is a huge difference between fear mongering

and being vigilant. Give us ONE legitimate reason they wont send missiles into select targets in Iran. Hell, they have already done it in Syria.

[StarryNite]

107. Exactly!

And give us one reason why we should trust them to do anything good.

[cali]

132. As I said, I think it's within the realm of the possible that they'll

bomb Iran, but no, I don't think, at this late date, it's likely. Here's one reason: Influential dems have said they'd impeach if he does. Yeah, yeah. I know. Dems are all spineless, they wouldn't really do it, etc. Consider this: they've never threatened him with it either. And furthermore, i think you'd get quite a few repukes supporting it. bush bombing Iran would be disasterous for repukes in an already near catastrophically bad year for them. Oh, and last time I checked, it was Israel who bombed Syria. You have evidence that the U.S. was involved, link to it. And not to some tin foil site either.

[sudopod]

50. One of the big reasons I abandoned the right

was that I was tired of living my life in fear.

[Flying Dream Blues]

90. Not to say I think it will happen, but keep in mind you don't have to imprison

all your enemies...just enough to scare the rest into submission. And if you don't think that can happen, just look at our Democratic Congress. They may not be imprisioned, but they're certainly scared into submission IMHO.

[L. Coyote]

21. PLOP, from the rear end of the horse to the ground it fell. PUCKEY, pure PUCKEY!!

Yes, EVERYONE, gather round. Extinguish your nonsense and give Bush CLOSER SCRUTINY!!

All this comes on the heels of calls for a special tribunal to investigate war crimes.

All this comes on the heels of renewed calls for a Truman Commission to investigate war spending.

Sometimes it is important to chastize people, but not as you just did. You completely missed the point.
The idea is just the opposite of giving Bush the benefit of the doubt.
The idea is to not be so distracted by all this CRAP that BUSH does not even need the benefit of the doubt.

The idea is to not be so distracted by BS that we are completely disabled!

[cali]

29. LOL! I'm not giving bush the benefit of the doubt

I'm dealing with the reality that he's operating from a very weak position. The military is not behind him. Party functionaries and Congress critters are not behind him. His own SoD is not behind him . Hell, even the corporations are distancing themselves from him.

[L. Coyote]

32. Indeed, your post is a bright candle in a dark room.

Poll_Blind wrote, "Extinguish your nonsense and give Bush the benefit of the doubt" and encouraged silence in the face of nonsense.

Thank you for speaking up. I'm rising to your defense, you, of course, realize.

[lame54]

71. You forgot Cheney's military - Blackwater

[halliburtonsux]

86. *Exactly.* Blackwater will never allow themselves to be removed...

from Iraq or New Orleans.

[arcadian]

121. And the 20 or so other private military security contractors.

n/t

[Truth2Tell]

80. If some sort of nuclear "incident"

were to take place in a major American city, I think all bets would be off. Short of that we won't see martial law. This crew prefers their fascism "creeping" as opposed to in-your-face - it sells better that way.

But just for kicks - imagine if a "dirty bomb" were to explode in, say, Oakland. If you lived in a major U.S city what would be your first impulse? That's right, you'd get your ass out of town - and so would everyone else. By far the largest component of the Katrina disaster was the massive dislocation of 100s of thousands of refugees. Imagine a similar refugee crises happening simultaneously in every major urban area of the country as people flee in fear. It would be unimaginable chaos. They have the martial law plans in place, and in such a scenario I believe they would use them.

[jpljr77]

81. And this is why McCain will win/keep the election very close.

You ever wonder why so many people buy into the "Loony Left" meme?

This line of reasoning is no better than that followed by the "War on Christmas" idiots.

[Zywiec]

3. Yeah, right.

See you at the barricades!

:rofl:

[EV_Ares]

5. It is all pretty much nonsense except for the possible conflict with Iran

which is very much a possibility before the November election. However, with our weakened and over-stretched military, it certainly would have to be limited.

[havocmom]

11. Dunno, cheney/bush doing all they can to destroy our economy

Perhaps if they can't get Iran to give them reason to start a war which would serve to cover a lot more dictator tricks, the eventual discontent and desperation in the America marketplace is bound to trigger a few desperate acts to give them the excuse they want.

MIHOP is not just about airplanes. Hungry people can give the cover they need to crack down. And people are likely to get hungry PDQ.

[EV_Ares]

27. U are rt abt that. "Starve the Beast" which is their goal of government

programs & the old analogy and history & repuke belief about if there is a war or conflict, the people are more reluctant to change admins or those in charge. Perpetual war along with their clear skies & other Orwellian tactics.

[iamahaingttta]

6. You're probably right, cali.

I wouldn't put anything past these madmen, however.
They are truly crazy, and wounded.
There's nothing more dangerous than a wounded crazy person.
Especially, if they think they will go to prison...

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. Cali, you are the voice of reason. But you must ask yourself....

When has the Junta ever been reasonable?

They are cornered, former friends and allies are calling for their blood and the predators are closing in. Animals get panicky and desperate when cornered. And the Junta has never been anything but an animal.

[havocmom]

13. Does ANYBODY see cheney as likely to hand over the keys

and put himself in a position to have to take responsibility for the crimes he has committed? Cornered animal indeed. I see him as Edward G Robinson in some old movie: You coppers will never take me alive!

cheney would not care who/what got destroyed so long as cheney's ass was saved. The only people who even register to him are people who pull his strings. The rest of us, of all humankind, mean squat. We are bugs to him. NOTHING is beyond someone like that. NOTHING.

[Virginia Dare]

26. Cheney will probably retreat quietly into his corner..

like he's done so many times before, only to come back ten times more evil than before...:scared:

[cali]

15. They've never been reasonable, but now they lack the power

and in georgie's case, I think the desire, to pull much of anything off.

[TechBear_Seattle]

46. That doesn't mean they won't try

Also, the ill-trained chimp is still Commander in Chief; it would be a major constitutional crisis if he gave orders to the troops and they were not immediately obeyed. The challenge is to keep him from giving such orders to begin with.

On the other hand, I would dearly love to see the Joint Chiefs cite one of the General Standing Orders (# 2, I think it is) which requires soldiers to disobey any order -- even a direct order -- when such an order is illegal. And an unprovoked assault on a sovereign nation is about as illegal as it can get.

[ronnie624]

74. Political power, like energy,

ebbs and flows with changing times and events. If a 'terrorist' attack happens tomorrow in which thousands of Americans are killed, I think you can rest assured that it would flow right back into the hands of the Bush Administration and its supporters. Doubtless they are aware of this. I wonder what they would do with that power.

[JuniperLea]

108. Seems to me they have all the power in the world

And a mercenary army... and all sorts of internment facilities that have been built over the past three years that are allegedly for illegal immigrants.

I would agree with you if we hadn't already seen the most bizarre actions by BushCo, and the fact that they are all still living freely outside of jail cells.

[Marr]

8. I don't think I'd put "bomb Iran" and "declare martial law" in the same category.

The former seems fairly likely to me, the latter does not.

[leveymg]

40. Believe me, if we bomb Iran all hell will break loose inside the U.S.

Why do you think the Pentagon brass have been resisting this for several years? It's a sure loser on so many levels.

[The Traveler]

9. Plans have been made

But I think it is pretty clear that an attempted coup would be confronted with a sharply divided military ... Dominionists (on the Bushista side) vs. those who remember their duty to the Constitution. About a 30-70 split I would guess. It would be a helluva mess, with a totally unpredictable outcome. It is that unpredictable part that, more than anything else, restrains them at this point.

I think the option was more seriously considered a few years ago, when Bush's approval was higher and the military rank and file were less pissed off at him. And while I agree Bush clearly wants out, Cheney may feel differently.

[havocmom]

12. What worries me is the Dominionists in the Air Force Brass

Those fools could get us into a shitload of trouble from 45,000 feet, and leave us so busy the 70% couldn't do much else but fight the battles the AF could start.

[The Traveler]

23. Think "ground crews"

Can't fly without 'em, and while the Dominionists have made certain inroads in Air Force brass (and pilots) the most skilled pilot in the world is burnt toast if his ground crew leaves a socket or screwdriver in the wrong place ... FOD ... Foreign Object Damage ...

I'm just sayin' the outcome of such a move is, in today's climate, very difficult to predict.

[havocmom]

66. They slowed it down a bit when those operational nukes on a plane were exposed

One would think the whacked out brass would have learned from that and will do a better job of vetting their 'special project' ground crews.

And remember those 'prayer cards' they asked troops to fill out shortly after the invasion started? What do you be that was more about sorting kool aid drinkers from critical thinkers among the rank and file troops? That was the first thing I considered when that little prank was pulled.

The Air Force scares me.

[The Traveler]

73. Ok, so you're a little paranoid ... that doesn't mean

that they aren't out to get us!!!

I can understand where you are coming from. I just know the Air Force. While there has been considerable Dominionist penetration, they are still in the minority. Not saying that can't do something really messed up ... they can and, hey, that whole scene with the nuclear weapons really was scary. I'm just saying that rebellion in the ranks by Airmen and pilots loyal to the Constitution would be significant and unavoidable and would throw a wild card into things, and I don't think they are confident in their ability to manage that.

But that doesn't mean they don't have wet dreams about smacking down the godless public and instituting a Christian state by force of arms.

[JuniperLea]

111. Have you considered the Blackwater armies?

As well as the fact we probably don't even know 10% of the evil deeds they've committed, or planned. They have been pretty successful at keeping things under wraps.

[The Traveler]

122. Private armies

beholden to no law save for the laws of profit. That worked so well for the Roman Empire, didn't it? And, on a smaller but more poignant scale, privateers ... many of whom became pirates proper. (My kids love the Pirates of the Caribbean stuff but, let's face it, the vast majority of historical pirates were no where near as cool as Jack Sparrow.) At some point, they will have to be dealt with, if history provides any guide.

[LanternWaste]

10. His administration is nothing more than a paper tiger

His administration is nothing more than a paper tiger. But yeah... the secular end-timers will get louder and louder the closer we get to November.

A little bit of melodrama, mixed with a dash of over-the-shoulder paranoia and topped with the adolescent fan-boy fantasy of "leading a ragged of survivors out of a post-apocolyptic nuclear wasteland into Eden" becomes a bit... much.

Y2K was my introduction to this. Family, friends and co-workers all coming down with the Chicken Little Flu, over medicating themselves with talk of stock piling ammunition and rations.


The Democratic nominee (whoever they may be) will be sitting in the White House come January. The sky will not fall, Revelations shall not come to pass, and the only Plagues to visit our households will be the usual summer colds.

I'm so looking forward to January...

[cali]

19. I must confess I fell into the Y2K chicken little mindset

With friends, I put together what now seems the most ludicrous food stockpiling you can imagine. Sure we were practicle about some things- rice, dried beans (no water, that was never going to a problem where I live) but man, I was in that food pantry the other day (almost a decade later) and the cans of this and that are a riot: hearts of palm, canned artichoke hearts, (the booze was plundered long ago) anchovies, canned crab and salmon, etc, etc.

[Virginia Dare]

28. Y2K was quite a clever little marketing scam, wasn't it?....n/t

[B3Nut]

144. "We got yer dehydrated water, all ready for Y2K..."

all ya need to do is add water.... :D

Yeah, that was a huge joke. The RW fundies were all agog about it, and wasted no time hawking all manner of survivalist crap...

[martymar64]

100. I 'll breathe easier once obama is in the oval ofc

Til then, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

[izquierdista]

16. Status quo mongering

While I agree with a lot of what you wrote, to think that everything will go smoothly and without incident is a bit naive too. It is HIGHLY likely that the last two elections had a Republican thumb on the scale. To think that they won't press even harder this time, trying to avoid what is clearly coming, is to be oblivious to their true nature. They clearly will use the ID issue to disenfranchise voters in the fall because they are already at it. They clearly have enough people in enough places to rig the rosters of voters.

Maybe bombs won't drop on Tehran, but war starting incidents are usually not that blatant. There was that incident of the Polish radio station that, when it was over, ended up killing millions. Who is to say that some ship in the Arabian Sea that is the target of an inerrant missile won't cause all hell to break loose?

To get through the next eight months to the Inauguration, ever increasing vigilance will be required. No more gentlemanly Gore actions of not contesting a stolen election, or before that of paying lax attention for vote stealing, or before that of not contesting for every single state, or before that of not checking the rolls of purged voters. It looks like Obama is ready for the tough road ahead, one that is not going to get easier, but tougher.

[cali]

20. Why were the pukes so feeble about stealing 3 special elections

for the house this spring? Hell, all three were in heavily repuke districts, and its easier to steal a district than a national election. I don't think the GOP machine is in strong enough health to effectively do much beyond the usual attempts at vote suppression, and this year I don't think they have much of a chance.

[izquierdista]

51. Caught them offguard

Since those were "safe" seats, they didn't have the full bag of tools open to fix them. They are just now beginning to realize the full magnitude of the task ahead. One was an aberration, two was cause for concern, three means "Holy Shit!"

Their tactics have been to run clean in districts where they have an advantage and only grab 3-5% of the vote in close districts. That way, it makes it MUCH harder to prove that there is anything wrong. That 3-5% can be from a combination of voter roll purging, intimidation with IDs, very long lines in Democratic precincts, a couple machines that have "software problems", problems that one can honestly shrug off. :shrug:

What these 3 special elections have shown, is that they are heading for a 1932 type cleaning out. A few percent isn't going to tip the scale when the real vote is 60-40 or 65-35. Now that they have woken up to the reality, expect them to get MUCH nastier and MORE felonious in their conduct.

[LanternWaste]

83. I was under the impression that even in the weeks prior

I was under the impression that even in the weeks prior to the special elections, the GOP already knew there was going to be fight on their hands due to in-place polling done in the districts, and that they had been puring money into those three particular seats, knowing it was going to be a slug-fest (at best).

[cali]

94. Are you kidding? They poured millions that they don't really

have into those races and obsessed about them for months. It's utterly absurd to say those races caught them off guard. They sure as hell didn't.

And one more time, the vaunted GOP machine is in rough shape. You can't begin to do what you're suggesting with that apparatus.

[Lerkfish]

18. If an earthquake is predicted, but it takes years to go off, are the seismologists wrong?

or are they looking at the conditions and saying its likely?

are they wrong to warn people in the area?

[cali]

31. poor comparison. bush doesn't have years. he's out of power

out of time. The military doesn't stand behind him. His SoD doesn't stand behind him. He has 8 months left in office and it's clear he's itching to get out. I do have more concerns about Cheney but he too is vastly weakened and the cabal has fallen apart.

[Lerkfish]

36. well, I sincerely hope you're correct.

[cayuga]

24. Bush would lie to us? Nonsense!

Bush's handprints would be all over 9/11? Nonsense!

Bush would reduce the U.S. to a laughingtstock around the world? Nonsense!

Bush would operate his administration in secret and destroy vital and lawfully required information? Nonsense!

Bush would eviscerate the core of our trust and belief in the value of government? Nonsense!

Bush would ignore a catastrophic calamity in our own country? Nonsense!

Bush would ridicule the changing climate? Nonsense!

Bush would punish the poor to enrich the rich? Nonsense!

Bush would put our safety at risk for the profit of 'the few'? Nonsense!


Bush operatives are right now plotting, planning and carrying out the most heinous operations to destroy everything good this country was built on. This isn't nonsense. It is real. It is happening. They are capable of ANYTHING, based on what they have managed to mangle to date.

Why has this fungus of an administration been allowed to spread its death of all we hold dear? People like you who say 'Nonsense!'

[EOTE]

42. Some people refuse to learn from the past.

Which is, I suppose, the reason * was able to garner enough popular support to make it possible for the 2000 election to have been stolen. I suppose we deserve any October Surprise that we do get from this cabal. We were too busy giving him the benefit of the doubt to stop it from happening. Welcome to DU.

[LanternWaste]

89. Writing bad-movie fiction is even easier than saying "nonsense".

Well... as you appear to be so absolutely sure, I'd love to read a valid, comprehensive scenario of just how the administration will achieve another term.

Writing bad-movie fiction is even easier than saying "nonsense".

[NewJeffCT]

30. What will happen

1) More voter ID laws will be slammed through, which will lead to a large disenfranchisement of minority voters. Intimidation of minority voters will be massive because of the desperation of the Republican party.
2) Osama bin Laden will release some timely new audio tapes around the time of the Democratic convention, and also close to the election.
3) A huge terror alert will be issued around those times as well.
4) McCain will continue to get the kid-gloves treatment from the media.
5) Republicans will focus on a few of Obama’s strengths for negative attacks, while Democrats shoot at dozens of McCain’s strengths and weaknesses with their negative attacks.
6) Bush will preemptively pardon every senior official in his White House in January of 2009 on the notion that he is preventing a partisan witch hunt.
7) Bush will attempt to slam through an Iran resolution that is similar to the Iraq resolution, but it will fail in a close vote, passing in the Senate, but losing by a whisker in the House. Republics will use this to fear-monger the electorate.

[cali]

34. 1) agree. 2) yep, but the effectiveness of Osama tapes is

questionable and hardly works to the repukes advantage. 3)maybe, but terror alerts are looked upon with suspicion by many, if not most Americans. They've pulled that one too many times. 4) I'm not so sure. 5) yes. 6) Probably. 7) Nope. not a chance.

[Junkdrawer]

35. LINK TO MARK CRISPIN MILLER'S VIDEOS:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=134544&mesg_id=134544

[L. Coyote]

59. Talk about flawed logic. Excellent example of the problem.

He begins by saying (paraphrasing) discuss the truth of what is to come ROFLMAO

Why do people believe in glass ball paranoia? This is one of the most depressed things I've seen.

[Sheets of Easter]

82. "glass ball paranoia"- perfect term for it.

Yeah, Bush could suspend elections, declare martial law, and jail liberals. You could also die tomorrow by rolling out of bed, or getting stuck by lightning twice.

Certainly, we need to watch out for potential warning signs of such things, but there are a number here who are just absolutely certain it will happen, and that's depressing and counterporductive.

[Junkdrawer]

85. The warning signs are there...

* Draconian presidential findings and legislation giving Bush unprecedented powers

* Training drills to take these powers from paper possibilities to practical options

* Construction of internment camps on thin justifications

The trillion dollar question is "What to do about it?"

And somehow, ignoring it all and labeling anyone else who expresses anxiety as a conspiracy nut doesn't strike me as the answer.

[tullyccro]

157. And if you look at deployments...

And public statements and actually read the news instead of buying Obama t-shirts, then you can see that the storm's brewing.

[L. Coyote]

163. "psychoillogical manipulation" might be another, because seeing the future is not logic,

and the expression of certainty that a future scenario is "truth"
is a form of mental disorder, as in future is out of order with truth.

Nothing is true until after it happens.
Nonetheless, this old ruse sells books, and always will.

I think of it as "endtimes madness" and it is appealing because
refuting the future is also logically impossible!
Unless, of course, they invent a better glass ball! :rofl:

[leveymg]

37. Thanks for saying exactly what I've concluded, as well, cali.

You're one of the most level-headed folks around these parts.

:thumbsup:

[spanone]

39. the bombing of iran is highly plausible imho

[leveymg]

41. Plausible scenario, but far from likely.

This whole thing is a giant psyops program designed to scare Iran to back out of its new western province: South Iraq. That's not going to happen, either.

[spanone]

43. with bu$h* at the helm, i would hardly say that it is far from likely.

[leveymg]

47. Bush and Cheney were "removed in place" several years ago.

Those two are definitely NOT in charge of anything other than the White House and the Naval Observatory. Their Air Force command is AF-1, and that's it.

Figureheads, at this point.

[NJSecularist]

44. Good post, cali.

The tinfoil hat conspiracies are getting to be a bit too prevalent here..

[bbgrunt]

45. I'm glad you're so certain. All the good G's thought that way too.

[leveymg]

48. This isn't Germany. This isn't 1933.

We'll all survive until January 20th - no new war between now and then - at which time President Obama will be sworn and really hard task of putting the pieces that used to be America back together will begin.

[bbgrunt]

49. well, that settles it then. No need to worry. Be happy.

[leveymg]

52. Bobby Mcferrin really hated it when the G.H.W. Bush campaign stole that song

I'm not saying that. Keep your eyes open and work like hell to get our country back. But, please, don't let this sort of scare tactic about nuking Iran and concentration camps in Wyoming take you too far off the edge.

[bbgrunt]

64. well, I appreciate your advice, but

I have been trying to stop these premonitions of doom for, well, at least 7years now. I also "take what I have learned from coincidence" and it only aggravates my paranoia. Then I keep reading compilations of all the laws and signing statements that have eviscerated our constitutional rights, and how they have been creating data bases of millions who constitute the "main core" and how even elected government officials can't have access to plans regarding the continuance of government during a national emergency..............one really must ask why?

and I don't believe it is a scare tactic anymore. Maybe those who do think it is merely a scare tactic are the ones who have their eyes open but are not seeing very clearly.

Me, I'm getting ready to move next to a nuclear reactor---it seems like a reasonable thing to do these days.

[LanternWaste]

57. Quite a system of binary thinking you seem to adhere to...with milk and gas prices alone there's ple

Quite a system of binary thinking you appear to adhere to in this instance... expect a fascist take-over, or "No need to worry. Be happy".

I don't think that the realizing the absurdity of these end-time, rapture-ready like scenarios precludes worry or concern. Heck, with milk and gas prices the way they are, there's plenty to be worried about.

As a matter of fact, the every day realties of this world give us quite enough to worry about and concern ourselves over without the additional burden of projecting bad movie plots into our non-fictional world.

[bbgrunt]

61. sorry,

I left off the :sarcasm: smilie.

[leveymg]

63. When have I (me,myself) said, "expect a fascist take-over" or "don't worry, be happy"?

Not here. Not on this thread.

I've long pointed to the historical fact that Dubya comes from a long-line of near-fascists and real Fifth Columnists and sympathizers for Fascism. But, Dubya and Dick are hardly in a position to impose any agenda on America anymore. Politically, they're the deadest of dead ducks, and the Joint Chiefs and intelligence community heads cleaned house of most of the neocon appointees three or four years ago.

However, I am not saying that we all should stop paying attention and go shopping. Quite the opposite. The Pentagon has a very real psychological warfare program in place designed to pressure Iran and make it believe that the US might attack unless they cave to our pressure. There's also good reason to conclude that we're trying to provoke the Revolutionary Guard into doing something rash. BUT, that's a far different thing from Bush waking up tonight after talking to Jeezbus, grabbing the red phone on the night table, and the bombers then striking Tehran at dawn. That's not going to happen, because the military wouldn't follow such an insane and illegal order. Not again, anyway.

I think you have me mixed up with several separate lines of thinkng by others on this thread.

[LanternWaste]

72. At approximately the same time

"When have I (me,myself) said, "expect a fascist take-over" or "don't worry, be happy"?"

At approximately the same time I've targeted you (yourself, yours) with my response to another poster...

Or in other words, not any time that I'm aware of for either...



"I think you have me mixed up with several separate lines of thinkng by others on this thread."

While I myself think you have my post confused with someone else's.

[leveymg]

139. Complicated thread. My apologies,

I see now that your response was to someone else.

Oops. Sorry.

[LanternWaste]

150. No worries

No worries. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

84. And good American's thought the same way too in 1932.

And good American's thought that way too in 1932.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

[ensho]

53. cali, cali, we are dealing with murderous criminals who did 9/11

you know they will if they want to

have we stopped them from doing anything? the answer is NO.

[SidDithers]

54. K&R..I feel the same way...

the "sky is falling" posts around here get to be a bit much at times.

Sid

[Individualist]

55. Do you really believe the little dictator signed the Military Commissions Act just for fun?

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, rammed through Congress just before the 2006 midterm elections, allows for the indefinite imprisonment of anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on a list of "terrorist" organizations, or who speaks out against the government's policies. The law calls for secret trials for citizens and noncitizens alike.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2848087

[G_j]

65. I was just going to mention this also,

you can't make this shit up,
it's not the creation of a paranoid imagination. The OP just sort of breezes by the fact that many laws have been changed...

[ellie]

56. Agreed.

I am not worried about these girly men. Mr. Five Deferments, Weak Heart Cheney, and Too-Drunk-For-The-Champagne-Outfit Bush. Who is going to listen to them? Martial law, give me a break. What will really happen is that no one will be charged for their crimes and they will get away with it. And this is the real injustice of it.

[KharmaTrain]

58. Shades Of 2000...

At that time I was wasting time on an AOL political board...inhabitted by some of the most vicious and ignorant creitins on the planet. Their hatred for all things Clinton was similar to the boooosh-hate I see here along with all the tinfoiling. They were damn sure that Clinton was going to declare martial law or find a way to rig the election. Oh, in retrospect, had that only happened :grin:

The deal with martial law is how do you enforce it and with what? Most of our military is tied up in Iraq...it would require a massive troop movement back here to put any teeth behind such a plan. Then, it'd be forcing American troops to shoot on American people...look at the Russian coup in 1991 and see how successful that was. boooshie doesn't have the luxuary of a hidden army in the countryside like the Chinese did when the Beijing militia balked at cracking down at Tien Amen.

However, I don't put it past this regime to launch an attack on Iran...no matter how foolish and self destructive this would be. If it means ramping up fear that could get Gramps elected and gives the neo-cons a big stiffie, it will happen.

[Echo In Light]

60. Given the magnitude of the crimes, fraud, cover ups, "terror" legislation, and martial law drills...

It makes sense to keep a wary eye for the next several months ... definitely.

Let the confident naysayers have their fun belittling such "crazy" concerns, but the fact is this right wing movement, as represented in the Bush/Cheney regime, is capable of anything, and is held accountable for nothing. That is ignored at your own peril.

Please watch this from Mark Crispin Miller:

Endgame: Bush & Cheney's desperate measures PT. 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvOjjvtMHGc&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX9IvrFYVfI&feature=related

[DangerDave921]

62. F'ing AGREED!

Man, I heard this same doomsday junk in 2004 and it never happened. For all the ridiculous talk on here, Bush is not some crazed maniac who's going to send out the tanks to stay in power. He will retreat to his ranch in 1/09 and live out his life in utter cluenessness about the world.

[ladjf]

67. The Bush administration has to be desperate in their desire

to retain power, if for no other reason than their criminal transgression might come to light with terrible consequences for them. Under those circumstances and considering the destructive and criminal things that they have already done, nothing is too outlandish for them to try.

If we are lucky, the Bush administration will put down the reigns of power in a timely and legal manner. But, if that is the case, they don't feel that they have the power to do otherwise and they are a CRAZY, MEAN and RUTHLESS bunch. They are, as it is said, a wounded animal. Beware.

[Subdivisions]

76. I think they came in never intending to leave. Phillipe Sands just

said a few days ago in front of a Congressional committee that charges are being prepared for nearly the entire boosh junta past and present for war crimes.

The ONLY way to insulate themselves from either a vengeful American public and a vengeful world court and the very real possibility of long prison sentences (or worse) is to sieze complete power.

It's been done elsewhere many times and it can happen here.

[ladjf]

79. The reckless policies of the Bush administration lends credence

to your theory that they never intended to leave office. You might me right about that.

The salient question is, do they have the power to pull that off? I think the answer to that question is that they don't quite have everything in place to take over directly by military coup. But, if there is anyway in Hell they could manipulate the election to get McCain in office, they will most definitely do it. And I'm not talking about rigging a few polling places. I'm talking about major election fraud, using every dirty trick in the book, tricks that we've never even dreamed of

[bbgrunt]

88. ...or helping HRC to go Lieberman on us.

[ladjf]

137. That's also a possibility. Bill seems to be very close to

Daddy Bush.

[RoyGBiv]

68. K&R

That is all ...

:kick:

[Burma Jones]

69. Martial Law requires a big old Military Force at home to enforce it

and, D'OH, they're all somewhere else......Martial Law is damned bad for business and will completely destroy what American power remains after the last 7 years. An attack on Iran will really fuck up the world economy. What will happen is that the people in charge will still be the people in charge regardless of next November's winners. We do need a Democratic President and/or solid majority in Congress so we can at least keep some of our Constitutional protections.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

70. Blackwater?

Sure gets around Posse Comitatus.

Just askin'.

P.S. Just last week, Bush's ICE Men rounded up several hundred people of indeterminate citizenship and penned them up in a cattle yard. Some of those people were even rabbis.

But it could never happen here. Except that it's happening here.

[cali]

133. Do you know what was going on in that meat factory?

A meth lab, torture of employees, all kinds of really ugly stuff. I'm not suggesting that I agree with the detentions of people here illegally, but they weren't penned in a cattle yard. They brought in trailers and accommodations. My problem is that they haven't gone after the owners of the place.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

134. If the grounds of the Iowa Cattle Congress

aren't a cattle yard, what are they?

I saw mention of the meth lab. Nothing more. Not who was running it, nor who was torturing whom.

I do know that there are allegations that the company had different pay methods for people based upon their status, that the company had full knowledge of the status of its workers and that when the workers tried to organize with UFCW, Sholom Rubashkin dropped the dime on them. See his letter of November 2007 on the Agriprocessors website. By droping the dime on his underpaid, overworked employees, he kept his own fat out of the fire. Despite calls from the Iowa First District Congressman for a complete investigation of Sholom Rubashkin, the DOJ has evinced no interest at all in the likelihood that Rubashkin violated a bunch of laws.

[Junkdrawer]

75. Hence the drills where local law enforcement is put under military control n/t

[Wizard777]

126. Bush has signed an agreement that will allow him to bring in and use Canadian troops.

[cynatnite]

77. At 3.79 million square miles with over 300 million people...

it'd be be impossible to put this county under martial law.

[shanti]

99. you really think so?

remember the microwave crowd control weapons?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1470

put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[cynatnite]

101. This is just minor testing and has not been used in real life settings...

There was speculation it would be used in Iraq, but given how volatile of a subject it is they won't risk the publicity problems it would create. This is still in it's earliest of stages of development so I don't expect it to go very far.

I don't smoke and I don't wear tin foil hats...thank you very much.

[shanti]

102. and that's ok

it takes all kinds! :hi:

[cynatnite]

104. I do agree...

:hi:

[Art_from_Ark]

143. Yeah, only small, sparsely populated countries have been subjected to authoritarian rule

like the 250 million people of the 8 million square mile Soviet Union and the one billion people of the 4 million square mile People's Republic of China.

:eyes:

[cali]

147. there had never been democracy in either country

period. bad comparisons. And where are are armed forces? Not here. Logistically and from a historical perspective, enacting martial law would be very difficult here short of nukes in several cities. Anything is possible. That's not the same thing as likely.

[Art_from_Ark]

161. I was referring to another poster's assertions that

"we're too big and too many".

But if you want to expand the argument to include democracies, it is interesting that virtually every Latin American republic that was created as a result of the Bolivar/San Martin revolutions was a democracy in the beginning, but nearly all of them ended up with dictatorships at one time or another.

[T Monk]

78. daily lockdowns, signing statements as law, stolen elections already exist

[sofa king]

87. Hey, I'm rooting for your prediction, cali.

I really hope you're right. But I can almost guarantee you that in five years or so, you're gonna look back at this day and say to yourself, god DAMN, did I ever get lucky on that one.

Most of you out there--even the ones who read these forums every day--have no idea what I mean when I say that this Presidential administration is a criminal operation from bottom to top. But drip, drip, drip will go the faucet and somewhere early in the next decade, as we all ponder futures we never planned for ourselves, you'll start to see the big picture. Even then it won't be the whole picture.

People fight harder for the things they've stolen than they do for the things they've earned. Keep that in mind, six to eight well placed bullets down the road.

[Flying Dream Blues]

92. Well then, why not share the big picture with us all? nt

[cali]

96. I don't buy

it. I find dystopic visions fascinating, though.

[LanternWaste]

91. Cali, I'm going to bookmark this thread...

Cali, I'm going to bookmark this thread. And on an early day in January, as either Hill or Barak take the oath of office and on DU we're popping e-corks from champaign bottles, I'm going to throw this one back out into play for fun.

And in the midst of dozens of sheepish statements along the lines of "well, it *could've* happened", "never trust anyone-- even your Mom!!@11!!" and "it doesn't hurt to be too paranoid", I'm going to give you a wink and you'll know exactly what it means...

:hi:

[Zywiec]

93. I have so many threads bookmarked for January

It's going to be fun. (Of course no one will see them when Bush shuts down the internets!!!!)

:rofl:

[cali]

95. that looks to be fun, LW

hope you do it.

:hi:

[shanti]

97. i'm bookmarking your post

for the day when the shit hits the fan ;)

[martymar64]

98. I hope you're right, put wouldn't put it past the sneaky fucker to try

If you're wrong, I won't say 'told you so'. If you're right I'll owe you a beer!

:toast:

[A HERETIC I AM]

103. If I remember correctly, Limpballs suggested Clinton would declare Martial Law also....

Cali, you're right. Good thread.

Shitfire, sometimes, by just reading DU, one would think unemployment was 50%, nobody had a salary that exceeded $10.00 an hour, grocery store shelves were empty, there was no gasoline to be found anywhere at any price, every single person in the country was under surveillance and people were dying of things so simple as a small cut or the common cold because of the health care system.


The "We need to do something"! threads kill me the most. Right up there with the posts that declare you should empty your IRA of stocks and buy gold because the Dow Jones is going to go to 7000 and a depression is right around the corner.

It's bullshit and I'm glad you called it out, Cali.

[cynatnite]

105. You mean I don't have to stockpile mega-cans of veggies and generators? n/t

[A HERETIC I AM]

109. LOL...probably not just yet. But according to cali in post #19....

He/She has plenty of 9 year old canned Salmon and Artichokes left. Maybe you two could work out a deal!

[VOX]

106. Most of the RW crew causing damage now was shat out of the hindquarters of the Nixon administration.

That's how long they've been at this game -- creeping, dismantling, grabbing, diverting -- and always privatizing, to the tune of billions, possibly trillions, right into their own pockets. Why would they walk away from their colossal self-made ATM -- aka the mechanism of the U.S. government?

They may give up an immediately visable presence (anyone seen Cheney lately?), but always with the idea that they'll steal it back -- remember the Gingrich-led "revolution" of 1994? The Florida debacle in 2000? The "recall" of California Governor Gray Davis in 2003? The documented criminality in Ohio in the 2004 election? The never-ending phony panic and mock outrage over Social Security and state pensions?

The right wing has never, nor will it ever, go quietly into the long night. Anyone who lets down their guard, does so at their own peril.

[DFW]

110. I actually agree with most of this

If the Republicans retain the White House it will be due to a combination
of too many Democrats staying home (I doubt it--not THIS time), innovative
ideas by the GOP's latest incarnation of the Dirty Tricks Team, and more
subtle and better hidden use of fraudulently programmed voting machines.

The country does not contain a majority of McCain's "my friends," I don't
care HOW many times he goes on the Daily Show. We CAN lose this election,
but we shouldn't.

[zonmoy]

119. If we lose it will only because the democrats took a deliberate dive.

these guys are so discredited that that is one of the only way they could win short of declaring martial law and ending democracy.

[Snarkturian Clone]

112. Off to the Greatest page with ye. Hopefully people will remember your post.

They probably won't of course, the holographic planes will get in their way.

[slackmaster]

113. R is for

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREcommended!

[nichomachus]

114. What claptrap

If I had come up to anyone here in 1998 and said that within the next 10 years we would see:

An election decided by the candidate's family friends on the supreme court
America turned into a debtor nation
The dollar in tatters
Torture as national policy
Gas at $4 a gallon
The invasion and occupation of a non-threatening sovereign nation based on lies
An American gulag with extraordinary rendition of political prisoners
Warrantless wiretapping of American citizens
Americans held incommunicado with no constitutional rights
An election stolen through rigged voting machines
A major terrorist attack against a US city that the government was warned about but ignored
A major US city destroyed by flood, while the administration did nothing and the president partied

You would have sneered at me and called me names. I would have been banned from some progressive blogs as a CT nut. At the very least I would have been told to adjust my tinfoil hat and go stand on a grassy knoll.

So, to be perfectly honest, Cali, I don't give a flying rat fuck what you think, unless you have some proof to back it up.

[Dreamer Tatum]

167. Then, gee, what are you *doing* about it?

I mean, if it's as inevitable as the sunrise that 300 million people will be under martial law,
then shouldn't the cadre of the super-informed be high-tailing it out of here by now?

Every year martial law was supposed to be declared. Every major election was supposed to be canceled.
Every year, we were supposed to attack Iran. Just because there was an "October surprise" one year,
now every year there's supposed to be one, usually involving bin Laden being removed from cold storage
and paraded in front of us.

From the above bullshit, and from the inevitable "how do you know it's NOT going to happen" retorts, I
can only infer that certain among us are desperately HOPING for all of that. It's the only logical conclusion:
certain people seem desperate to have it all come true, I guess so they can say they lived in interesting times.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Bush is probably DESPERATE to leave the White House and go into exile? Um, no.
That would counter the fantasy of living in concentration camps.

[chill_wind]

115. It won't be necessary. $10.00/gal gas and severe rationing ought to do it, though.

That will pretty much keep everybody off the streets and roadways, all but the real rich people.

[rudy23]

116. You mean won't try to declare martial law AGAIN?!?!

[MonkeyFunk]

117. Look out for flying pigs!

Cuz I just rec'ed a Cali thread!

Yes, the fearmongering is tiresome. It seems to be a gauge of somebody's "lib-cred" to spout the most paranoid nonsense.

Nutjobs told us the elections would be canceled in 2002, 2004 and 2006. By many reports here, we should already be occupying Iran - or have nuked it.

I read someone here yesterday claim that DU was akin to prisoners tapping on the walls to communicate to each other. I think that's just patently absurd. I certainly don't feel like a captive in real life. For all the hair-pulling and screaming here, the only thing really different in my day to day life is that flying is now a bigger pain in the ass than it was 8 years ago. But beyond that... I can still speak, assemble, petition my government. Soldiers aren't being quartered in my spare room. Life goes on.

[A HERETIC I AM]

120. Well God Damned Said. Nicely put. n/t

[cali]

130. not really so surprising.

I think we're both reality based even if the primary has been a real shredder.

Yeah, flying sucks now. But all the dystopian crap prophesied here has failed to come to pass. Katrina was awful. It exposed a lot of ugly stuff, but it was a massive fuck up, not an exercise in ethnic cleansing as some exist.

Lots of bad, bad things have happened under bushco. No denying that, but he's not a cartoon cut out. And now he's a weak, near impotent president.

Oh, well. Expect lots more of this.

On edit: thanks for the rec.

[Elidor]

118. A K&R for some refreshing common sense

Good post.

[wildbilln864]

123. Cali....

I hope you're 100% correct on all points. Thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. The predictable pollyana thinking that nothing like this can eveh happen in this

country is rearing its ugly head

Never mind the following has already happened

Suspension of the Great Writ of Habeas Corpus
Military Commissions Act
Torture
Requirement to have passports where you used not to
In the plans, tracking of all farm animals
So called Patriot Act.. which was never read
Spying on Americans
Executive Orders that actually would make this very thing, suspention of elections et al, legal
Continuation of Government legislation

I could go on...

Oh and detain eight million liberals... given it HAS happened in other places with far less technology.... oh never mind, thing on your bookcase, is a history book. Read it.

[cali]

128. I'm keenly aware of what bushco has done. I'm also in touch with

reality. You? Perhaps not. As someone who's had occasion to correct your gross historical mistakes, and who has two MAs in history, your condescending nonsense, is as always, amusing. Delusions of grandeur are just delusions.

Yes, some of the things you listed have happened and are grievous. The idea that this is shockingly unprecedented, however, is largely bullshit. McCarthyism, The Sedition Act of 1918, Nixon's enemy list, etc.

You are a dystopian. I'm a realist. Oh, and detaining 8 million liberals. Bullshit.

You've yammered away ridiculously about silly conspiracies. You worked yourself into hysterics about Randi Rhodes drunken accident, convinced it was a plot against liberals. YOU have been wrong on every prediction you've made.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Including the economy RIGHT...

you forgot the economy

Damn why is it that the IGNORE feature is NOT working

Should have seen what kind of POLLYANNA thread I was posting at

Damn LEVEL One, or two or three.

Buh BYE

[cali]

131. Actually, YOU didn't mention the economy in your post

and I was responding to you. You really, really don't handle differing opinions or anyone who challenges your rigid mindset, very well at all. And though you can dish it out, you really can't take it. Weak.

[A HERETIC I AM]

135. Ahh...you've been dubbed a "Pollyanna" by nadinbrzezinski.....

It's a favorite term of hers. She's blessed me with that same moniker.

If you happen to have a perspective on the future that is anything less than dismal, you're obviously blindly optimistic. How dare you? Can't you see that there are people tensely rubbing their hands together? Shouldn't you pay attention to them? Look at all the heat being built up in those palms. They MUST be serious. Do you not see the evil at every turn? Is it not apparent that so many others are much more keen to the goings on in the world than you are, and that they are justified in their pessimism, and therefore YOU are wrong? Why is it you can not see it their (her) way?

Things are horrible, man. Just horrible.







Right

[cali]

136. the irony is this.

I actually do have a rather dismal view of the future, but it's rooted in reality not cheap tinfoil crap. I think the economy is a very serious short term and long term problem. Living in a place that's quite vulnerable to global warming, I'm very pessimistic about climate change. But I try to temper my pessimism with realism. The world has limped along for quite some time. Actually knowing history- something that poster is not well acquainted with, I understand that, yes, anything could happen, but some things are a lot more likely than others.

[Echo In Light]

145. Never underestimate the power of denial

[LanternWaste]

152. And never over-estimate the paranoid...

[cali]

153. I live in firm contact with reality

and history. I don't underestimate the power of denial- or stupidity, or paranoia or the documented seduction of end-time thought, be it religious or secular. In fact, I have a MA in Millenarianism.

[Art_from_Ark]

160. I live in firm contact with reality, too

But my reality is seen from a different perspective, not as someone living in an insular rural area in a small, liberal state, but as someone who lives in two different cultures and travels frequently between the two. I will say, though, that if I had lived in my relatively small hometown all this time, I might have viewed things in the same light as you do. Everything still seems normal there, just like it always was, until I turn on the TV.

[mdmc]

125. no need for martial law

:shrug:

[Bluebear]

127. This is predictable nonsense. alright.

[cayuga]

138. BREAKING NEWS!!

"bushco has little real power left."

Today an anonymous source from DemocraticUnderground.com has announced an end to the most massive, far-reaching and corrupt political cabal in the history of the world. bushco was previously recognized as the incredibly powerful and invasive political machine that recruited and collaborated with powerbrokers in religion, the military, economics, education, the environment, as well as the judicial, legislative and administrative branches of the government.

Also collaborating within bushco's former power structure were a massive para-military, monopolistic media, lobbyists, non-governmental organizations, defense companies, 527s, foreign governments, state governments, black operations, greedy and gluttoness corporations, Wall Street, banks, mortgage companies, brokerage houses, oil and energy companies, pharmaceuticals, agricultural interests, utilities, public relations firms, communication giants, voting machine companies, internet operatives, and - probably the most powerful entity - a body language expert.

The world emitted a hugh sigh of relief upon learning of the fall of the bushco empire. Unfortunately, upon monitoring the resultant levels of CO2 due to the synchronized sigh, bushco declared martial law until such time the atmosphere returned to 1999 air quality levels.

[seemslikeadream]

140. Mark Crispin Miller warns of Election Theft & Martial Law

$12 Gas and Rationing? Possible, Says Expert
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3317769&mesg_id=3317769

U.S. House leaders say military action against Iran cannot be ruled out
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3315210

Mark Crispin Miller warns of Election Theft & Martial Law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=134544&mesg_id=134544

War with Iran: Iran's Oil Bourse could Topple the Dollar
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3317767

[onehandle]

141. They will pull some crap to stir up headlines for the Fall, but that's it.

They've castrated themselves.

[timtom]

142. Mark Crispin Miller

pleads a powerful and compelling case.

I always reserve judgment on things like this, but it doesn't seem an unreasonable fear.

Though, I hope it is.

[Freddie Stubbs]

146. The same dire predictions are post on DU every two years

Back in 2000 it was the freepers who were predicting that Clinton and Reno were planning:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3903bf534a7c.htm

[LanternWaste]

149. Some choice nuggets in that thread...

Some really absurd posts in that thread which mirrors a lot of the hand-wringing here these days...

Change the word 'Clinton' to 'Bush', and presto-- FR becomes DU!




1. Most Americans, still, would repeat the tired mantra, "that couldn't happen in America."

2. A few weeks ago I would have dismissed this as utter nonsense - but now I'm not so sure. We've seen this bunch move around the Constitution whenever it suited their purposes.

3. Sobering title and a good reminder that there is more going on out there than just Elian.

4. Right it is. But is the idea that he would instead chose to ignore it all together and force the issue? Meaning he declares just as anyone wanting to be dictator all elections invalid? Remember this man respects nothing. Laws mean nothing.

5. The closer we get to the election, the more I become convinced that Clinton will not leave office voluntarily.

6. Weelll - what if unknown terrorists polluted water or let off a couple bio-bombs in each of 5-10 cities. Then he could declare martial law, cancel the constitution and Nov elections.

7. I have no doubt that Clinton will attempt to suspend the Constitution and rule as absolute dictator.

7. Seeing as how the Constitution is basically a dead letter already, and especially in light of Saturday's event, why do you repeat the mantra that it's "ludicrous"?

[Dogtown]

151. Well reasoned post!

I'll add that I think they may be running mccain as a spoiler, to rest on their gains for a term or two, just like they did after nixon. They'll be back.

They don't have to risk robbery when they can steal with impunity.

[windoe]

154. Vigilance is different than paranoia.

This administration has lost power because of vigilance, which is based on actual facts, laws that are now on the books, and actions taken -it is reality based. It is because people are coming awake that * & Co. can no longer lie and act in secrecy.
Part of coming awake is discussing possible scenarios and at least mentally preparing for possibilities. Discussions and the sharing of knowledge is empowering.
Paranoia on the other hand is fear based speculation, and has the effect of making one feel powerless. This is an important discussion and a very important distinction to watch out for.

[Raster]

155. Thank you for your well-reasoned response.

On cheney*/bush*: who seriously would have thought they would have resorted to the illegal machinations--secret pResidential directives, signing statements, etc.--they have already done. We KNOW 2000 was stolen by a variety of electoral shenanigans and that Al Gore was the rightful winner. We have increasing evidence that 2004 was also rife with illegal action and did not reflect the will of the people. Mark Crispin Miller makes a very good point that cheney*/bush* could face vast legal repercussions for their actions IF an independent judiciary backed by a Democratic Congress and Democratic President assumes power. If I were cheney*/bush*--God forbid--I would do everything I could to ensure I never had to face justice for my crimes.

Wake up America!:kick:

[Echo In Light]

158. Well put. Another distraction is how some use the legitimate concerns of others as a vehicle for...

...their own self satisfaction in making a spectacle of the plight of those concerned.

For instance, based on the govt's record, its actions and so forth, coupled with its secrecy and anti-democratic measures, people naturally get worked up and suspect the worst may occur {since it seems to be in keeping with what certain sectors of the govt want}, usually corresponding with a specific time/event. Then it doesn't come to pass, and this of course leaves them, and their legit concerns, open to ridicule.

The question is, why? Why ridicule? Given all that our govt has done, incrementally, and what's been forced into the open via those who are vigilant, whistleblowers and the like, I honestly don't find such concerns to be nearly as out of line as the detractors prefer to paint them - look at how many dems aided the right in their fervent denial of election fraud in 00/04 - and that they seem to actually derive pleasure from chastising 'those crazy tinfoilers.'

This says a great deal about the intentions of people, and I tend to favor the wary, no matter how off the wall, over those who would smugly dismiss concerns over the very real, very dark direction our govt has taken ... likey not without very specific ends and goals in mind.

[L. Coyote]

164. Indeed. It is a psychological device to suppress voting and disempower people.

A balanced approach offers perspectives on a range of future scenarios,
then presents people with options to achieve the future they choose.

The pending doom approach is both irrational and likely has a covert agenda too.

[tullyccro]

156. Funny, b/c that's not what naval logistics and planners are saying...

There's no conspiracy, just lunacy.

The Israeli government, in passing new legislation aimed directly at investigations surrounding PM Ehud Olmert, has all but confirmed that a hawkish Israeli-U.S. alliance has plans to strike Iranian infrastructure sometime before the end of the year and most likely when the U.S. Navy has had a chance to refuel, tune up, and redeploy it's carrier task forces to the region in the early fall.

The Knesset passed legislation today that would supercede previous legislation involving the indictment of a Prime Minister. Previously, if a Prime Minister were convicted of a felony during his term in office, they would have to resign their position after the conviction, but the new law, requires any acting Prime Minister to resign during an indictment, and thus, whether the charges are substantiated or not.

The term of Israel's PM is now extremely susceptible to mere political machinations and accusations, and, perhaps in response to the passage of the new law, PM Olmert announced today that diplomatic and economic sanctions had been "exhausted" with Iran and that joint U.S./Israeli Naval operations should be firmly considered.

All this in keeping with the plans of the Bush administration to provide for a "unique...scheduling" opportunity to occur in the fall, with the arrival of naval forces in the Gulf area.

Any U.S. imposed blockade on the shipment of oil through the Strait of Hormuz will be seen as a direct provocation of Iran's government and industry, and will further add to the already dire U.S. oil economy.

Any conflict arising out of such an action will also invoke the "continuity of government" plans which the administration set forth last year, plans which grant the administration the authority to usurp the powers of the Congress and Judiciary should any conflict arise, and postpone elections as long as they see fit.

While a permanent military dictatorship is obviously ridiculous, it is clear that the administration might use just such a conflict to further the political and economic goals of the corporate/U.S. military complex in the region, and handcuff the next president to a hornet's nest stretching from Afghanistan to Iraq, and including Iran.

Please see tullyccro.blogspot.com for more details, or on DailyKos under tullyccro.

[Junkdrawer]

159. I think an attack on Iran is still unlikely, BUT we're passing though a danger point...

Over a year ago, I posted this analysis of the likelihood of an attack on Iran:

The invasion of Iraq happened because there was a “coalition of the willing” of the biggest US Foreign Policy heavyweights:

1.) Big Oil
2.) The Administration
3.) The Military Industrial Complex
4.) Israel
5.) Saudi Arabia

Now, not all the above coalition is signed on to an invasion/attack on Iran. Let’s look at the above players in detail:

1.) Big Oil:
Big Oil wanted the oil in Iraq. Iraq has the lion’s share of the under-exploited oil in the region. Big Oil is in the process of getting EXTREMELY favorable terms for the drilling of Iraqi oil. Chaos in Iraq got them these favorable terms, but once the ink is dry on the deal, Big Oil will be pushing to actually bring stability to Iraq. An attack on Iran will make any attempt to exploit oil ANYWHERE in the Middle East nearly impossible for decades. James Baker is the voice of Big Oil and Saudi Arabia. The recommendations of the Iraqi Study Group pretty much spells out what Big Oil wants. They DON’T want an attack on Iran. Saber rattling to intimidate Iran into a more “helpful” role maybe, but no attack.

2.) The Administration
The Administration has broken so many laws to make the invasion of Iraq happen, it boggles the mind. The farther away from a massive terror attack/new invasion, the more jail cells figure into their future. So, of course, they want a new war. But this Administration is a creature of Big Oil. So Cheney is probably appealing to as many power brokers as he can, but, in the end, he’ll follow orders.

3.) The Military Industrial Complex
These ghouls make money on war and chaos. Probably the biggest fans of an Iranian invasion.

4.) Israel
Once Iraq was invaded, if Iran didn’t have a nuclear program, they would be idiots if they didn’t start one. Fast. And Israel would be its target. So, of course Israel is pushing for an attack on Iran. A while back, someone said Big Oil and Israel were allies. I said “fellow travelers”. And here’s where they part company.

5.) Saudi Arabia
As usual, the interests of Saudi Arabia and Big Oil are almost identical. While the Saudis do have ancient religious antagonisms with Shiite Iran, I think the interests of keeping the oil flowing will win in the end.

So, the box score is 2 for, 2 against and the Administration split down the middle. My guess is that, as long as Iran lets Big Oil have its way in Iraq, no attack – even if Iran goes forward with its nuclear program.

All in all, it was a pretty good guess. Now, where do we stand one year later?

Well, everything is still the same except that Big Oil has yet to get the ink on their Oil Sharing agreement. And Bush/Cheney has yet to sit down and negotiate with Iran.

Now I still think that an attack on Iran destabilizes the region to such an extent that drilling will be out of the question for many, many years. But if an attack were to come, it would probably come at the end of this administration so that the inevitable mess can be blamed on the outgoing administration.

[AntiFascist]

162. I don't view the warning of an attack on Iran as fearmongering...

the MSM often brings this up and I'm sure the Bush Admin would do it if there were a certain level of support. Some of us have known for years that Iran was the next stage in the neocons' plans as people like Michael Ledeen have consistently called for it's attack. I applaud everyone who has fought against the aggression and planned aggression, but I won't feel that we are safe until this administration is gone. Everytime I hear that Bush has become bad news for the Republicans, and that people are turning against the neocons, I feel vindicated for being such a wolf crying conspiracy theorist.

[L. Coyote]

165. Because the Neocon conspiracy is true, and the past confirms it. That's not paranoia,

it is reason, and you have valid reasons to call it a conspiracy.
Hell, it was a publically-known conspiracy, in print, etc.

Of course, the publically known part did not include the conspiracy to LIE!

Now, we know they are LIARS, and we must assume they continue to LIE.
That too is logical.

I assume the Iran attack wurlitzer is part of the pattern of LIES, in service
to distract from the other LIES and crimes, the WAR CRIMES, and the Iraq failure.

This "any day now" invasion or attack has been going on for soooo long, my assumption is even reasonable.

Not to mention, if the USA attacks Iran, the military might not come home at all! They might be defeated and dead.

[davekriss]

166. There is risk

I think if there was a real possibility of the U.S. people imposing criminal sanctions on the Bush administration (for any of their long list of treasonous crimes), we then would face some risk of a false flag operation and manipulated (if not cancelled) elections that put in power politicians that agree to "move on" and not prosecute the past.

However, I think the ruling class already made such deals with all the current candidates (that's part of the reason they still are candidates). Bush and his evil monkey minions will ride out the term and then eke out what comforts their ill-gotten gains will provide the rest of their days. No social justice here in Amerika. Same as it ever was.